SU_A_32

[i] Okay [name], you were born in Syria?
[r] Actually I was born in Iraq. My mom is from Iraq and my father is from Syria, but I was born in Iraq and I grew up a bit there and after we went back to Syria.
[i] And where in Iraq exactly?
[r] In Mosul, in Mosul city. And I lived there maybe until 16 years, 15-16 years. We started to go back there, but at 19 years old we went back to Syria. So I studied there in Fine Arts.
[i] Okay, and how was it as a kid moving from Iraq to Syria and then back to Iraq, back to Syria?
[r] Yeah, it was… of course like as a child you cannot decide to move or not. Even it was like… it’s hard a bit. Because when you start to grow up and you start to have, you know, friends everywhere in school, you study and everything. And for some reason you should to follow because your parents and to move. But normally and in general in Iraq after 1991, because they had a very big war. At that moment. So it was really terrible and very bad situation there. From that time until now. Because in 1991 the start had very bad situation there. And they even started before that in 1980 or something. They had a war with Iran. And after that with America and whoever who came there. And in 2003 they had another, you know, so… But in general it was the reason. It was not so good situation. To live, to survive. It was hard. And it was idea that to think… They was thinking about to back to Syria. Because always we like should to move back or stay here. Always my father was asking to back to Syria. And finally we take this decision. And we move. I was in age maybe 18 years old or 17. It was before that. We like move and back, move and back. Just like… Not like to stay there for long time. But finally we decide to back again. And… Yeah, I back. So I start to study there. Fine arts. Follow my dream. To be an artist, of course.
[i] And… Do you remember when was the moment that you thought… Yeah, I want to do arts. I am an artist. I want to study this. Can you tell something more about that?
[r] Oh, yeah. Of course. You ask me something is… It’s like I’m… It’s like I ask you, what’s your name? And you just answer me that my name is… For me, art is not only like art. Like something I do. It’s me. And your question, you ask me now that if I remember when I start. Because I cannot remember. Because I start I was in age… Three years old. So I start actually… And my mom still keep… Keeping some drawing from that period. And… I don’t know, really. Sometimes I think about that… When I saw this drawing… I can say like, wow, it’s very good.
[i] What were you drawing?
[r] In that period, I like a lot… I started drawing animals, actually. Of course, cartoon or something. Like this characters. But for me, animals, it was for me the first. And really I spend my childhood drawing… I didn’t draw humans before. In that period, of course. And I draw a lot of animals, any kind. Dogs, cats, lions, tigers, whatever you want. And for me, it was like kind of challenge. Because it’s… Human, you can’t just put this face here. You put eyes, you put nose, you put mouth. Yeah, you become a human. Maybe it’s similar like you, maybe not. But animals, it was… For me, it was like really challenge because it’s difficult. Because this dog not like another kind of dogs. They both dogs, you know. For example. So I start to draw. And I started from three years old. And… In four or five years old, I start to grow up. I start to hear that… They start to call me in family. They start to call me like I’m Picasso. I don’t know even who’s Picasso in that period. Yeah. So for me, paint, art…
[i] Were you born in an artistic family? Or your parents are artists?
[r] Actually, no. But my grandpa, he was painter. Grandpa from my father. He’s not like artist. He’s not like a free artist. Like just to be artist. He was writer. He was writer. He was… And he paint. That’s what I understand after I grow up. Because I didn’t meet him. Because he die after. I was little child when he died. So when I start to grow up, I start to hear that. My father telling me that, yes, your grandpa have this… A bit not like me and too much. So… Yeah. So from that period… And I know myself. I’m not like just doing something like just like hobby. For me, it’s something more than this. It’s me. And I know very clear future that… Even from that period. Because my parents, they support me in this. They really support me. They know. They believe in my talent. And they want me to be something. And I will be. One time. Of course. Yeah. But… Yeah. From that period, I start to paint. So I don’t remember exactly. And even I had some exhibitions or competitions in painting or something like that.
[i] As a child?
[r] As a child. Even before to start with school. Four or five years. Six years. Something like that. It was one competition in Japan. One competition in India. And I… Yeah. And I… Like I was… Yeah. I’m the hero here. Number one. Yeah. Yeah. It’s… For me, I don’t exactly remember that period. But when I really start to grow up, I start to understand what really I did. And I… Yeah. I’m glad to have this kind of family and parents.
[i] Do I understand it well that as a child you went to Japan and India?
[r] Actually, I didn’t went to there. But it was competition so… Because in that age, so I just really sent the paints and for competition there. Yeah. It was difficult, especially in that period, in that time. Because… Yeah. It was so difficult even to leave the country normal. Yeah. Until I grow up, it was difficult to leave country very normal. Because they have very special situation there. And they was like from war to war. So, it’s all not easy. Yeah.
[i] In what kind of a home did you grow up?
[r] Oh, my home where I grow up. As Arabic guy, I think you will hear it or you hear it before. Or you touch this by some way. We… Too much close people. We too much open people. Like, we always have this family contact. Family… Care about family. Too much. And so, my mom in that period, in that time of course until now, she have 14 brother and sister. 14 person. Yeah. It depends. My grandma, she had very difficult life. She came from Turkey. My grandma, the mother of my mom. And she came from Turkey. And she was very young. And she married very young. So, she have this children like 14. And 10 aunties and 4 uncles. So, I grow up in this area or this kind of… We are too much close people. We should to meet. We should to enjoy. We should to support. We care about this a lot. Like in sadness or in happiness time or whatever. You should to have somebody around you from family. Not only friends. That if you need anything, you just can call. And of course, this meeting every holy days or this kind. Yeah. So, we grow up. I haven’t brothers. I have only 3 sisters. I am the oldest one. So, I grow up actually but I really have a lot of brothers. But like they was like my cousins. But from that period, we grow up like not only friends. Like brothers. So, I don’t count myself. I haven’t brothers. Really. And…
[i] Were you living also in the same house?
[r] No, of course not. But we should every… I can tell you not only us. I am not talking only about me or my family. But you can understand this from the culture. Arabic culture. They too much care about this details. So, if you not gonna to meet your family, cousins or wherever. We can say maybe one time per month maybe. Sometimes we meet each other like families of course. Because we was the child. Maybe every week. Maybe every 10 days. But should to be in this contact. So, we always was meeting in my grandpa house. It’s a big house. And the big house always if you gonna to ask any Arabic person. He gonna to tell you that my grandpa house. It’s always we call it the big house. Because all children and grandsons will meet there. So, we have this… This relationship with everything. And to grow up like this. Really it’s make different if you will grow up. Like for me example like I have only three sisters. If I’m gonna to grow up without all of this family. What kind of memories? I will have memories with my parents, with my sisters. I will have memory. Of course. I’m sure. But when you live with this kind of people. A lot of people. They all close to you. They all have almost the same your blood. So, I have a lot of memories about this. I have a lot of stories about this. I can not tell you this in one day.
[i] What’s the nicest memory you have?
[r] Oh, I can not. I can not decide I will be… No, I can’t. Because I have a lot. I have a lot of memories about this. Because I told you. If we every week, every ten days, every couple of weeks. We should to meet. And from this childhood we grow up like this. And I remember like… I don’t know. Really a lot of details about this. But what is important for me. Everything is important. Everything. Until now. And sometimes I… Really, I wake up and I dream that some place in my grandpa house there. Until now. Not exactly a dream. But I really sure that I am in that place. Because this is big… That was big house. And we grow up there. And… I don’t know. I have relationships with animals. Because my grandpa… He have a brother. Uncle of my mom. Actually. And he was… Love a lot of animals. And… One time he bring a snake. And… It’s not dangerous snake of course. But because they want to make us… Have this strong heart. We were not afraid this. And I don’t afraid this. Thank God. For this kind of things. So he start… We start to play with this snake. And I remember he… He put this snake around our neck. Of course in that night I get sick. Because I was afraid too much. But after that day… Maybe I was sick for a couple of days. But after that… And… Some people they start to call us that we have like this kind of a problem. So we start to… Just like… Because they neighbor. We can… We can go to help them. To call this snake. So… For me it’s very beautiful memory. That… It’s make my character now. Anything you get in your childhood will make you now. Who are you? It’s what you was before. What you get. Knowledge or… Something. So… Every small details… It’s make my… My… My character now. It’s make me. Who am I now? So… Yeah. This is one of billion memory what I have. It’s very important and very beautiful. And… Yeah. Yeah. I cannot stop to tell you a lot of stories. But it’s will not be in… Not end.
[i] What were the professions of your parents?
[r] What they work like?
[i] Yeah.
[r] Yeah. My mom she was a teacher. Like… For art. But actually… In fact she is not artist. Like she teach… A bit how… For… For drawing, painting. But not exactly she was free to be. Because… In kind of our life… It’s difficult to… To make balance between… family and care about children and life. Especially if… If you already have… Not so good and comfortable situation. So… She was an artist. She care more to be… Wanted to be a fashion designer. She like a lot like this. But… Yeah. Yeah.
[i] For… Clothes.
[r] Clothes and this fashion. Everything about fashion. And she was even make something by her hands. It’s… And… And a lot of… What I wear in that time. And I even remember when I was walking in street. And some people like… Wow. Yeah. A lot… They like something. She always makes… And create something new. Yeah. But she didn’t had… This opportunity to focus. To make this talent. Or… To care about this more. It’s… It’s… Depends a lot of details. And situation. Yeah. And my father… Actually he was a teacher. English teacher. Yeah. So… English teacher. But I… I was not so good in… In English actually. Because… I remember even when I start to study there. When… Because we had to study English. In that time. And… I was not so good at all in English. I still not good in English. But… of course better than that time, in that period. I was scared or I don’t focus or I don’t like this. Okay, English is difficult for me, yeah. But in the same time, I was searching for information or go to buy some books to learn English. But I don’t want it with this way, school way. I always looking for something that nobody can control me. I’m going to teach myself and learn by myself. Not like some teacher and he will punish me if I will… you know? So I was really always like this. And… yeah.
[i] And how did you feel as a kid? Did you feel like the other kids or did you feel a bit different?
[r] Yeah, I was different. Yeah, I was different. Even like kids, I was… I was testing this. Like I’m different. Just because of my talent. Not because of like… Of course, your parents will support you. Anything you want to be. You want to be Spider-Man, they will support you to be Spider-Man. It’s not this point. Because I can prove this. I can… I start to prove this. That I have talent. Of course, only… not only my family. I mean, all family, whole family. Like… cousins and them. Whatever, all family. Of course, they always support you like you. Somebody have very big talent. And I have very big talent. And I still have. Like… At 6 years, at 3 years old, I start as an artist. Until now. This is what I know in my life. I cannot change it. This is my system. My mind. And at 6, 7 years old, I start with martial arts. So, it’s something very different. Between to be an artist. Who want to be… You want to… Who want to be like, you know… In his mind. With his mind. It’s too much relaxed. Spirit way. Easy way. Simple way. Like, you know… And with another way, who should to be too much active. Too much have this energy. Too much… It’s not any kind of a sport. Because you should to… You know… Use power. But I start with this in 6, 7 years old. And until now, I didn’t… I stopped for a while. For some reason. But I back. But for me, it’s the same. And I always call this like… For me, it’s like one coin. Two faces. Art and this kind of martial arts or something like that. I cannot stop it. Sometimes I can be too much angry in art or in paint. You can’t touch this. And sometimes if I had to use this… To use this energy in another way like in sport or in… Use this in martial arts. I’ve been relaxed in that area. Yeah. So for me, I start with this and with this. So I was somebody like… Hey, come down. Like you have a lot of things to do. And really, I grow up like this. And it was hard for me. It was hard. And to give for two sides, two ways. Every way. He need all your energy. And all your time to be professional and good in this. So if you have this kind of mind that you want to be professional and good in two ways. You don’t want to give up. No, really. It was hard. Until now, I find that it’s hard because when I start to be in this art way… Because in art, what I mean art for me. I’m painter. I’m sculptor. At the same time, I’m special effects makeup. At the same time, I’m writer. Not so strong but I had. At the same time. So everything what can suck all your energy from your mind. I had to do this. I grow up with it. It’s me. And another side to be active. To care about how to defend yourself. To vent your everything. Family. So I have this system too. So I always have used to make more energy. To can cover everything here and here. Yeah.
[i] Do you feel martial art and art goes together for you? It’s for me… Not exactly but… What is art for me? Art is me. My character. My character create art. So art in my mind and in my character. I’m one piece of this. So martial arts for me is the same that I can be artist in this too. It’s martial art. It’s art. Anybody can have… To defend himself or to fight or whatever. Anybody can just do it. Okay. It’s natural. But for me, no. I was looking for the… To be more perfect. To take more levels. And to be more really professional in this. To can know how I can defend myself or defend my… My family in any situation. And I… And it’s not was even this way for me. It was not only just hobby. No. It was take part of my mind to think about this. It really could be any moment to put me in some situation what make me need to use this skills. So I should to know more. I should to know. And when I start even I made a lot of kind of martial arts. Not like I did something, yeah, for a few couple of months in summer and that’s it. No. I was… Sometimes I was escaping from home. I had a problem with my father when I… In that period. Because I should to study and he told me you will not go only in summer and I cannot. How? What you ask me? So I wait him. He is not out. He is outside or so much. So I escaped to go to learn martial arts. And I back to paint and… And it was really, really difficult for me to have this mix. I didn’t know how. Yeah.
[i] And then when… At what age did you go to the art school? For us, you should to start only… You have only… You can start from 15, 16 years. But it’s not make you continue in university or… We call it university like academy for fine arts. But of course like any country you should to start with fine arts academy from… 18 years. So before 18 years I was just use this by myself. Nobody teach me. I didn’t learn in some school in somewhere. No, no, no. I make exhibitions in that time. Of course like with many child or some… But without knowledge. Without… I mean academic knowledge. Until 18 years old. When I went there I was… And I had even a problems with this in that period. When I start to study. Because I start to have a problems because… I know myself I can not… How to say that? For me I can not help my friends. So we had in that period sometimes… Our teacher… Maybe for a while he don’t come. Or when he come he don’t care about all people. We had something like this. Without little details. But we had something like this. So I always was caring to… To teach more than to learn. I have always this in my mind. So anybody around me he needs some help. He don’t know. He don’t… I don’t know. By mind, by thinking. By technical words. Whatever. So I always jump to help. And that make me and put me in bad situation with my teachers. So they start to… Like… Hey… You just… You student here. You just come to learn. You can not teach people. So I start to… Like… Hey… Okay… But we don’t see you to teach all people. Some people they suffer here. So I start to answer. So I really start to have… Problems and fights. Kind of fights. With my teachers or misunderstanding or whatever. Because I cannot shut up about this. Somebody want me to help. I will help. You my teacher and I don’t see you very well. Or you come to tell me something what I already know. Because I even start to sell some paint. Before I start to study like academic way or… In that age. So for me I… I feed my soul by art. A lot. Before even to be in academic way or… It was very… Of course a very important point. Academic knowledge it’s… It’s like you have land and this land you should to care about it. To use it with something good. Not like just… Just wild. You know. So… Academic way or knowledge or teaching is just to prepare this land. But you already have this land. And it’s ready to grow up anything there. So… Yeah. So this is what… Stories about what I had. The problems about art and… I had this to… I cannot like be not fighter. Even in this way I mean. If something wrong I cannot say… Yes it’s right. No, no, no, no. Yeah. So… In this academy I had a problem. Bigger problem after with one teacher because he start to… It’s become like… Bigger problem between each other. He start to answer and I start to answer and start to be more bigger and… Why you talk with me like this? I’m your teacher. Yes I respect you. And I remember… I remember another time… Sorry I jump from…
[i] Go ahead. Go ahead.
[r] From something to something. Just you open the door. Because I remember now one of this problems he came one time and I was very boring when he put some stuff there like kind of apples or whatever or some cups. You know. I don’t know what to call it in English. So… And we should to draw and paint.
[i] A cup. A glass.
[r] Yeah. Kind of like flowers maybe.
[i] Vase.
[r] Vase. Apples. This kind of. I don’t know what’s called in English. So…
[i] Still lives I think.
[r] Yeah. This kind of it. So for a while we start to feel boring of this. Always we come to see okay I want to… Now I’m ready. I’m hungry to draw and paint a humans. And in that… In that period we haven’t… We haven’t… This to… To paint a humans like… Naked. Like… Nude… Models. We haven’t like this. We haven’t like this. If we want to do it we should to do it by our own self. Yeah. In Academy we haven’t like this. Yeah. It’s kind of… You cannot put too much naked. So. They start to use only the same… Um… The way for drawing and painting as well is very boring. So one time I start to, and I was, I don’t know what’s going on in that period, so I start to change all the details. So make it like in surrealism way. Like something like I remember, like Dali, Salvador Dali. And I start to put something down, up and change this sculpture, make it something else. I start to create a lot of things. And the teacher, this is what I had a problem with him. And he came to, what, what are you doing? And I don’t want to answer normal. He’s standing near me, near this stand, and he’s looking there and looking to me. What is this? And I told him, normal, like I’m just normal. What’s, what’s happened? He told me, what, what you did here? Where is the paint there here? Here. I told him, yeah, the same. And he just look at me like this and too much he start to become like angry. And I told him, oh, sorry, my teacher, maybe because you standing here, maybe if you step one step here, you will see what I see now by my eyes. And he start to be angry in this moment. And he told me, why you talk like this? Like he’s strange. I told him, because we just feel boring. And I really see this, whatever you put there, like this now. And this is my paint. If you want to do whatever you want, I respect. I’m just a student here. But yeah, we feel boring. And it’s become a lot of talking, a lot of start to become kind of fight. And yeah, I was happy. I was happy with this kind of character. I cannot be like just, yeah, just do it. And I okay. No, that’s not me.
[i] Okay. And you graduated as an artist? You finished your study?
[r] Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I in this academy in Syria, it was fine arts academy. Yeah, I finished. as a painter. But in the same time, I was in another small school. It’s called Adam Ismail. It’s by name of one very famous old artist. It’s kind of a small academy.
[i] What’s the name?
[r] Adam Ismail. It’s name for very famous artist in Syria. And this is small academy. It was very good academy for a couple years. And teaching about sculpture and painter. Because you should to, like in fine arts, you can study like paint or sculpture. But I am both. I cannot be in this. But sometimes you escape to go to that for sculpture place and do something. So I start to use this more free in this small academy. As paints and sculpture, I was more like more free. You have more free to can do it by your way. Yeah. So for me, just like really, I count myself by finishing paints and sculpture at the same time.
[i] And how was life then for you being an artist and living in Syria?
[r] Yeah, after I finished study of course from that period. In the beginning, it was not was bad. But step by step through the years, I start to become more better. Really. Before I’m talking here about before this period when we start to have a problem. Problems and whatever what’s going on now in Middle East or in Syria. But before that, we was taking very good steps to up to get more good levels to become really more better. And we start to have a lot of galleries who care about not only galleries because we have kind of galleries have system that the gallery by some gallery can make competition for young artists. And as a new artist and you want to find yourself, you want to find your way wherever. They start to give support by give you like money, every month you will have payment, and you will have your material, anything you will need, you will want, canvas, whatever. And every three months, something like that, for a few months, couple of months, you should give for this gallery one or two paintings. But it’s not for just gift. And they’re going to sell it, and they have, you know, how much percent, I don’t know, whatever. So, it was very good. Very good opportunity to have this, you can sit at home and take money, and take your material, just what I want more. Just, this is my place, I want to, I just can be there forever. So, we start to have this, we start to have competitions. We start to have, even the government start to make. We have every year a big exhibition for, exhibition and competition at the same time. Yeah, it was for every year. Even the sculpture, we start to have, I don’t know what to call it, but like, only for sculptures every year. Kind of competition, they will choose some artist, he will be there. And… Even… And not only for, I’m not talking even only about the Syrian artists. For a sculpture, we start to invite big artists from Europe. Everywhere, everywhere. From here, from Europe. And… We both go to one area and have everyone his own stone and start to make a sculpture. Sorry, my English is not so good. So, I don’t exactly know the name of this. But, yeah. We start to have this every year. Galleries, like a business even. Galleries, start to care. It’s kind of business if you… For me, no, I’m an artist. I create art. For some people, who I need them, I need all people. And I need the people who can support me to make me continue. If I’m not going to sell my prints, how I will live? I’m not going to… draw some kind of money like… I don’t know. I forget his name. I think… Oh, yeah. Picasso. I think Picasso, one time he was sitting in a restaurant and he draw something on the table. Or on the dish or something like this. And… When he came to tell him… Yeah, you eat, you know, check. He told him, I want this. He told him, what? Like, I pay already. I draw there. So, we haven’t this. So, we need to sell. So, we start to have who care. Who make this art business. To make… Connect with even with European and American galleries. For me, I can count… We had very good steps to get more better in art area. Talking about art, not only art like paints, sculpture, painting, even theater, even music. We have a lot of talents, people, guys. They just want… I’m sure about what I’m talking about. Just give them little opportunity. Yeah. So, we had very good for me. I was sad because we start to get very serious and good steps for this. Just little time. Like a little, a few couple years will be more better. And we start to have this problem there. And… Of course, first what he will get hurt is art and this area. You cannot be… You cannot survive in this situation. Not because… Not because of another, any idea. Living the country or home is not because… First, I’m talking about first in your mind, in your soul. I cannot draw and paint and just sit and paint for myself. Billion paints and nobody will see this. We feed our souls by this. I’m going to show you something and you will tell me I hate it. It’s good. I make something to you. Or I love it. For me, yeah. I did something. So, it’s not because of home or… I mean situation or you would blah blah blah this details. No. You should just to continue. So, that’s why a lot of artists… There is a lot of maybe more and more now grow up and very beautiful and good and strong guys like an artist. Yeah. But for who live? For me, I’m talking about myself. I don’t know. That was the reason is I want to continue. And I always was looking to be in all the world. I always from when I was child.
[i] Why?
[r] I cannot… I… How to say that? Let me just think about how to say that. It’s… I have an energy. I know what I can do. And I can be in any condition. And I will give. I will be creative in this. Always I count myself. I can talk about myself too much. Any person can talk about himself too much. Any artist. Let’s talk about artist because we already talk about artist. Can talk about himself too much. But I want to prove that by what I do, not by talking. I just… One simple way. I have… I believe in myself that I have this energy. To can do more than what… Any person can do. I always like to put myself in challenge with some people. With very strong more than me. I like this. I really like this. If all people they will say… Yeah, you are the perfect. You are the god now. Yeah, okay. It’s boring. But you always when you… Play this game with very strong players. This is the point. Because you should do… It’s climbing. You always you have another mountain you should do. Put in your list and so. For me it’s like this.
[i] And who are the artists that inspire you? That challenge you?
[r] It’s here it’s little difficult because there is many artists actually. Who can give me this? When we start to study like an art, like an academic, of course you should to study a lot of artist’s way and style and technique and whatever. And you should to make copy from a lot of artists just to make yourself, your skills more, has to use a lot of different way. But for me as artist there is many, I cannot just give you one name from a classic, but from about mind for me is Leonardo da Vinci. It’s not only about technique of art or painting, about character of Leonardo da Vinci. Da Vinci he was not only artist. Yeah. Sorry, I mean not only painter or sculptor. He was engineer. He was everything. If you will read about him he was somebody, a very strange beautiful mind. Very big. So this kind of characters what I feel that he is more close. Because he just not only artist, not only painter or sculptor. He have energy. What he can if he will put his hand in any situation in any place in any project or whatever, what is it. He will be number one. This is what I’m looking for Who are you as a person. Who exactly, who are you. Who is this person? This person? Yeah, I know this person. He is painter. Just painter? Yeah, he’s painter. I don’t want even this. It’s not enough for me. Just a painter, or a singer, or whatever. No, for me, who is this person, what he can be in your mind, if you decide or not, that he has a lot of things he can do. So, Da Vinci, he is, personally, he is more, I feel it, more close to my character. But as a painter, as what they did, perfect and beautiful and big artist, we have a lot. There is no somebody special exactly, because when you try to have this kind of character, you cannot be … You cannot accept that to just be like somebody, or somebody give you this touch that… Yeah, I’m a painter like, for example, like Dali, or you like Rembrandt, or Van Gogh, or whatever. It means you have only this artist who, you know, open his door to your mind, to… But for me, I don’t want this. Because it’s like circle. I don’t want to be in circle. I want to be myself. That’s why I told you Da Vinci. Da Vinci, because he haven’t circle, he can be everything and anything. This is for me. It’s my, my opportunity or my, my… Yeah, so, yeah. Da Vinci.
[i] So, you told me the, like the art, artistic scene was growing. Where you were living. But then at a certain moment, it became difficult. Right? To live as an artist.
[r] In which period you mean? What time? When you grow up or after studying?
[i] Yeah.
[r] Even after studying.
[i] After studying, you told me that you were living as an artist. You had many galleries.
[r] Yeah, yeah.
[i] But that certainly was going well. But then at a certain moment…
[r] No, no, no. Of course not. First start came by direct. Yes, we have good opportunity and good… I’m talking about… I finished studying in academy in 2004. Between four and five, something like this. So, you start step by step. And of course you… In any, in any country, in any situation, you cannot just be too much lucky that, yeah, I came here and I found somebody to tell me, yes, I’m going to make you star in this. No, it was very, very difficult. For a year, this is very difficult. For a year, I had… And I… In… In our countries, you cannot think that… You cannot think that you want to be an artist and live normal life. I think every country, some way have the same. In some way, not exactly. But for us, it was… Even when you tell somebody that I’m an artist, like, what? You’re really serious? Go to find some job. Even, even when I start to grow up, I hear it from not my own family, like my parents or… No. From some people close to us, like… Yeah, yeah, it’s good, like a hobby, but let him find something else. But my father, he was… My parents both, actually. And they want me to know, really, I want to be artist. I’m crazy about this. He won’t be an artist. But this was for them, little… They was afraid. Because they know the situation. Nobody care about this. There is no support in that period. Especially when I was in Iraq part. Almost nothing there. Of course, in Syria, it’s different way. Because… And why? Let me tell you why. It’s not just… Just because… In Iraq and artists, there is a big memory and history about Iraq and artists. It’s not joke here. We talk about the first… It’s a big, beautiful… An artist in Middle East. But… They had that situation. Another situation. When they start to came from war to war. From bad time to more… Dark time and… That’s why… It’s in any country. When you start to have this kind of situations, you not too much focus to… Care about art. The artists will be like survivors. They should really to survive. Inside or should to escape and find another way… To survive outside. So, it’s not easy for them. But… What I remember about this… There was not a lot of caring about this. Or maybe because I’m just… When I start to grow up, we leave. So, I didn’t taste exactly… The time. The real time. Or for somebody young. And now he want to do something… Could be like this. But… In some way in Syria it was more easy. Of course, in Iraq because it was another… Situation. In general situation. But this was difficult. And I was… The same… The same character that I don’t want to give up. I should to make something. I had very bad time about my life. What I remember that I have nothing. And… Hello, you should to change this. Maybe find some way to… Survive. But… Because I have an examples around me. I know I need some people. Because they want to survive. I forget exactly the name of one what I… Who I meet before. He was a little old man. I really forget. He was painter. And very good artist. Just because his situation. And he have family. He should to care about family. And he cannot be an artist. And support and… And to live normal life. So he change his… His way. But… I always remember this man. I am so sorry to myself. Even to that I forget his name. Because… He need to remember. He need that I remember his name. But… He was so sad. When he was talking about… You know he… You can understand he feel pain. That after all of this year. Years. And with this white hair. And I just leave the art. Just because I want to… Like… Survive with my family. So he start to work something else at all. And he thought in that period. In that time. When he change. Just for a while. Yeah I will back again. I can handle it. And you know make balance. But time take him. He become old. And he cannot back again. Because his family start to grow up. And they need more and more and more. To support. Yeah so… There we have another… Kind of system. If you have children. And you want to care about them. You will care only by your… Own way. Nobody gonna to help you. I am talking about system or government or whatever. Zero. So only you. You should to care about this. They will start to grow up more. So it means they need to study. They need a lot of things. Only you. Only father. Of course not all family is lucky to have the mother too. She have work. Not all. And even they both have work. What they get every month. It is nothing. It is really nothing. So what you get you just won’t survive. So… Every time I just remember that man. And… I remember his eyes when he talking very pain. Painful in his soul. That he live the art what he love. He talk with you. And he just telling you I love art. But he cannot be an artist. So… I always remember this. Always remember myself this. And I… That’s what make me and push me to… To fight. To not surrender. I want to be an artist. I don’t want to leave. This is what… I am here because… God create me. The life create me to be an artist. I don’t want to change. Every person who have this part. He have this… He have his own place in this world. Doctor is doctor. I cannot be doctor. I cannot be general. In army. So… Yeah, so… This was difficult. Especially when you finish… When you study already. And you want to support yourself. To work something else. Because especially in academy. You should to… Every day have… To pay for your material. For everything. Not even like another kind of studying or whatever. This was too much. And I want to… To support myself. I want to help myself. Not only my family. Of course they help me. But… This was difficult too much. Yeah. Yeah, like… Like one time I was… I remember… I paint some oriental paint. Painting. It was canvas. Maybe 1 meter 20 cm or something. It was big. And I put a lot of… You know… Reality details. And very good. And get very long time. And I want money. Because I should to study. And I need money for this. And when I wanted to sell it. I sell it. I cannot even tell you exactly. Just example. Because how much cheap. I sell it. For kind of gallery. Not exactly gallery. But who hunt this kind of paint. For free almost. And sell it with another price. Yeah. For example. If I am going to tell you now. One paint in 5000 Euro. I sell it in… Yeah. Maybe… 200, 300 Euro. So… So big difference between… This number and this number. It hurt you because… You haven’t choice. You should to survive. So sometimes every time I have free time. I start to paint like this. And sell it with this kind of price. Yeah. Yeah.
[i] And… At certain moment. It became too difficult for you. To stay… In… Syria.
[r] Because of this situation.
[i] No. I am just in general asking you. Yeah. Like…
[r] I was always…
[i] Being an artist. Why did you decide.
[r] To leave?
[i] I need to leave the country.
[r] To leave the country. It’s two answers. Why I leave the country. It’s a good answer. I am going to tell you. And… If I… This situation. I told you. Or what I am going to tell you now. About I am an artist. And I had that situation. It’s push me to leave. It’s both. Two answers. Because for me. Always I have this. I should to make something. And here I cannot. I have opportunity. But I should. I am always looking the wall. I always looking to. I want this. My name be everywhere. Not only in one country. It’s not enough for me. It feed me but it’s like little bit. So yes. I had this idea from long long time. When I start to grow up. I start to learn more. Read more about art. Even before studying in academy. I want to move. I don’t know where. But I should to move. To some place what … I. With my big story. I thought when I am gonna to leave. To another any country. So it will be like. You know everything is open now. They won’t care too much. Not care. It’s mean they will come to tell. Yes you are artist. No you will gonna to prove it by your art. But I mean like support. This is the reason. That what make me think. I should to leave. Another reason is about. What’s going on in our countries. In the Middle East. In general. It was of course. Yes you have this an idea. But because nothing clear. You don’t know how. And it’s not easy for us. I cannot go to somewhere. And ask for a visa. And yeah he will give me this visa. Even Arabic countries. Neighbors. You can not. You should to. I don’t know. You should to find another ways. To pay a lot of money. To come get this visa. For Arabic country. Neighbor you. Not important. Normal like your country. It’s not something big deal. This was difficult for us. Or you will find the way. Even before this. What’s going on now in Middle East. A lot of people they escaped. And came to Europe, or whatever where. By this way. Sneaky way. So yeah. And after this period. In 2010. We start to. This problem start to become more bigger. I have a sister. She was leaving. And she married in Iraq. She was coming back there. She back there. And she married there. So. And she married there. She have two child. And they kill her husband. This Islamic … bullshit. Yeah. And. In that period. She was like pregnant. With another child. So she was like waiting. To come a little bit. To come move again. To back to Syria. To her own family. To us. So. But when we start to have this problems. It’s not like it was very big deal. In Damascus. Where we live. But it’s like. You know it’s beginning. And we already have experience. Because we was living in Iraq. And we know. What’s the bad situation. What the steps. What could be in the future. So it was very bad. Because you haven’t any way. Now where you should to move. Or go. But. We thought maybe we can go. To visit my sister there. We can stay there for a while. And after we can maybe figure out. Or maybe the situation will just turn off. And nothing. We go back. This kind. So. We went there. And for me it was. It was like hell. Because everything was changing. I don’t remember about my childhood. Or how I grew up. Everything was changing. Everything. It was movie. It was movie. Even in Hollywood you will not find. Like this kind of movies. Those. I don’t want even to call them by name. Because for me it’s like just. Kind of. I don’t want to say something. But it’s like they are not human. So talking about religion. And they are not in religion at all. They just. Dogs. No I’m sorry. I should to say sorry to dogs. Because dogs more. It’s just animal. He don’t hurt anybody. Even his brother. But those kind of people. They was like zombie. Like monsters. Anyway. So they was living there even before. What we call it ISIS. Or Daesh. I don’t know why they call. Daesh by ISIS. You can ask why later. So but. They was living there. And it was controlled. And it was no government. And they were going to stop them at night there. For years. I’m talking here about from 2003. Until. Till now. Before even to start to talk about this another name. For them. They was there. And they was. It was very bad. Very scary situation. In general there. He told. By meeting in some way. With like friends. His general there. Of course they came from another. From the capital. Like military. Like army in the streets. To make points to check for everything. For safety. But he told us. That he was paying. Every month for those Islamic people. To be alive. To not get his, his head. He said I pay. To stay alive here. What you think we can survive like this? So you can’t just understand. What kind of situation. And I back there. It’s everything. Like you know. It’s like you back in. In that old age. People too much sad. Sad faces. Sad souls. Very sad. Nothing to do. They cannot change. They cannot open their mouth. Your government can kill you. And at the same time. Another government. In shadow. Can kill you. And you don’t know why. This is what you like. Every morning or every day. You just hear some bomb outside. This is just more than normal. So when we. When I went there. It was very strange. For me. For the people who live in there. They cannot change it. They have no choice. So they should just live with this. Every day. It was scary for me. And. We had in that time. In that moment. We had a house. Two floors. Not apartments. Two floors. For me. It was just a while. Just a few days. Just a few months. I’m going to leave. I don’t know where I will go back. Maybe to Syria. Maybe to somewhere else. But for me it’s just time. For me it’s just time. So okay. Just handle it. Okay. We will pass it. But. So I get room there. And I start to just count day. After day. After day. Nothing. And I. Just couple years. Two years pass. Maybe more. Something like couple years. Just pass. Couple years. You sit in a room. And it’s not a joke. Because I had very bad. I was very in very bad situation. By mind. By soul. Like what I’m going. What I’m doing here. It’s not me. Sorry but somebody else. He have nothing to do. He can just leave like. Okay perfect. Family. Eat. Drink. Leave and die. Sometime. That’s it. But it’s not me. Every day it’s pass for me. It’s hell. Because I have something. It kill me. I should to do something. I lose this day.
[i] Were you painting?
[r] So. First time I didn’t think that. Because I think that. To have this area. To bring material. To paint. It’s like you’re hungry, but you don’t want to eat anything now. You just keep it to be more hungry. To eat very perfect later. So for first time. I don’t want to paint. Okay just few days. I’m going to do something. To find some way. But after few months. I can’t anymore. So I start to bring some material to home. And I start to paint. In the room there. Or wherever. Of course in this room. I make like place. I start to live. I start to. I start to. It’s like your drugs. You just forget everything. This is your world. You can put here. Anything you want. You can just disappear. So I start to. Paint. As I can. Not like. Very open. Or very good way because, even material there is was… I want to buy paints. Tubes for paints. For colors I mean. You cannot find. Or you find something for children. Or it’s not. You should to be not here. That’s two words. You should to be not here. Not for me. And. I can’t really leave the house. Only few times. In this couple years. It’s not only because I afraid. No no no. Not about afraid. Or scared to go outside. Just I can’t be here. It’s not change anything to go with friends. Or I mean cousins. Because I have only cousins there. Go to visit them. So from house to house. From house to house. Just this kind of visit. And that’s it for me. But it was just like bomb. You just wait this time. I cannot anymore. So it was like this. And after I start to have a problem with those people. Islamic people. I don’t want to call something else. Because they have a lot of names. Yeah. So. I start to. Not like have friends there. Meet some guys outside. Or. Go to buy something from near the house. So. By talking. And one reason. You cannot be normal there. Because if they gonna to hear. Your accent. Because we all Arabian people. But every country have accent. Even inside the country. Have many accent. So if they gonna to hear that you not from that country. Only the people who came to be with those Islamic group. They could be from another countries. Came from Syria. From wherever in this world. You know about this. So it was difficult go and talk with… And not make mistake with accent. Because people. One of two. They will afraid you. Because you strange. Or they will focus on you. And want to know. Who are you. Or from where. And they will be not normal people. Because they want to know who are you. So it was very very difficult to go. And sometimes I went with my father. And. And just tell me. If you want something. Just tell me. I’m gonna to talk with people. Don’t make mistake. Sometimes even by small bus. Like. The army there. They stop us. To ask for identity card. Or something like that. To be sure. And I don’t know for one reason. One time. He stop the bus. And he look to all faces. And he ask me. And I was there maybe. Not long time ago. Like not for long time. And I don’t know what I should to answer. What I should to talk. And my accent. And he start to talk with me. Like hey you. It’s exactly like movie. You know when this person. Who exactly in the movie. And he want to escape. And ask him exactly. Like with me. He told me. Where is your identity card then? I told him. Oh really I forget it at home. And I try to make accent. Here. And he told me. From where? So my father. He start to trying to cover me. Like yeah. He make joke. He told him. Yes yes yes. But I’m talking with him, not with you. Yes what you want. He told me you from where. So I start to play this. Like actor. Or character or whatever. So yeah. I start to answer by some fake things. What I get information. Or something. Where do you live? Yes we live in Zangawat area. And what you work. This is what you. What’s your job. What you have. This is too much. Not easy to answer there. For government or for. Because you cannot trust anybody. I’m sitting with a boss. Some boss and some people with me. You cannot say an artist. What you talking about. If government. If they are from military or police. What you. What artist. It’s like you talk about something for cave age. You know. Or somebody will take it with you. An artist. So you paint or you draw. It’s mean you. You can’t. It’s impossible. So yeah. So I start to answer like. But yeah I’m working. Make like a design or decoration. Or whatever. Anything. Painting for houses. Any kind of answer. He didn’t believe me exactly. But we should to move. Because we had a lot of cars behind. They start to like wait a lot of. And he have like more. Somebody else with him. Like more than bigger. So he told them like. We haven’t time. So I just was like. You don’t know what kind of troubles could be there. And it’s happened. Just with nothing. A lot of he was. They was because they. I don’t know. They have reason or not. Because. Some who was working in an army. To handle everything. And to live with those Islamic group. Who can kill you at any time. At any moment. So they start. Some from military. They start to take drugs. Just to forget that he really in this very bad situation. I don’t know if it’s. Yes I should to agree. To say yes. What he should to do. To forget. Because they start to become. Sometimes. Make something wrong with normal people. Because he is high. So even in this details. You don’t know how to should to talk with them. Maybe without reason. You know something. I saw you before. He is lying. He is high or maybe just lying. He is just bad person. I saw you before. I think you’re from… No I am not. No no no. You from them. Calm down. There is no. Don’t talk. Any kind of talking. Any kind. He cannot change his mind. You from them. Come with me. If he put you in that car. And send you to somewhere. He will forget about everything. And everyone around you. He will forget about you. So. Danger there is from everywhere. From people. From government. From bombs around. So it was hell. So. Yes it was very difficult. I didn’t leave a lot of times. Just a few times. Or with some cousin in car. Between house to house. Something like this. Yeah. This is for the living there. Until to. Because you was talking about how I. Why I decide to come here. Yeah.
[i] Last time we spoke. You also told me something about. At certain moment like a guy.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Knocking on your door.
[r] When I start to have little conversations. Not even friends. Like neighbors or something. Go to buy something. So. You know when sometimes you. Maybe you should. Or you need to trust somebody. Sometimes you get boring. Or tired. That you too much intoxicated. You should to be relaxed. It’s healthy to be relaxed sometimes. To be honest sometimes. Should to be. So. He asking me like what you work. Something like that. I told him something like. Yeah I am an artist. So yeah artist. What is mean artist. Yeah like paint and sculpt. Something like that. And I until now. Believe that he is good person. But maybe he was by stupid way. He was talking with somebody else. By talking with somebody. What you should trust him. So one time. The door is knocking. There. This is. That’s why I told you. The stories is not end. Because there is a lot of details. If you want to know my mind. And how I live. There is a lot of details. And what I am giving you now. Not because I choose to give you only this. You just know. Because we talk fast. There is more details. Even when you have door. Bill or somebody knock the door. You will afraid to open it direct. Or if you have. Wife, sister, mother. At home. You will afraid to let them open the door. Because you don’t know who is outside. Both criminals. From government. And from those groups. Both dangerous. So okay. Now I won’t open the door. So I open the door. And I found somebody. He talk with me with this too much. Classic way. Too much. He is somebody professional how to talk. With Islamic way. Relation way. Something like this. I didn’t recognize this face. Or. Yeah. Hello. I thought maybe he will ask. You know my father or something. Yeah. And he ask me by name. Are you [name]? He don’t know my second name. Or something. You [name]? Yeah. We hear about you. So when he told me. Because I heard a lot of stories. There. About this kind. So. He told me: We hear about you. Who are you? We. It’s not one person. So I start to. Like little. Not comfortable. I want to be sure. Yeah. But. I was just shocked. And just smile. I don’t know what I should answer. Yeah. And he say. Yeah we hear about you. And. I didn’t saw you here. Like before. For how long you live here? And I like told him. Blah blah blah. And I told him back. The period. For how long I live there. And he told me. Yeah because. He want to. All these questions. To ask me another question. For him it’s important. Why I didn’t saw you came to pray. In that. We call it masjid. Mosque. And I didn’t saw you there. Because for Muslims people. You should to pray every day of course. You have five times. But every Friday. There is a big holiday. So all people should to go there. To pray together. So. He told me. I didn’t saw you at Friday. In that mosque here. Near us in that area. What I should to answer was. Find some answer. And smart answer. I told him. No. What how you can count every person who come there. He said. No. More than 100 person sometimes. He say. No. Yeah. But we always know each other. I don’t know. I told him. No. Sometimes just because I came maybe late. I don’t find a place. I start just to give any answer. Like just any answer. And he told me. Yeah. Okay. So I cannot. I start to understand the situation. It will be like. Not good to tell him. Yeah. And who are you. Yeah. Prove who. It will be little that. They don’t like this kind. You are not. Don’t put yourself in this situation. Like your enemy here. Or you can fight here. You can’t. You can’t. So you just take it easy. And be in this snake way. And yeah. He told me. Yeah. And so. Yeah. Okay. What’s your job? What’s your work? I told him. So here I start to like. Okay. I know it’s wrong. But at the same time. Did I talk something? Did I make. Made maybe a mistake. Or talk with somebody. I told him. I work in like. Design for decoration. For garden design. This kind of things. For you know. Sculpturing. And he told me. You sure? I told him. This is my job. Yes. He told me. Yeah. But we hear something else about you. And I laugh. And I. I start to talk like. Like he is my friend. I didn’t show him. I afraid. I scared a lot. But I didn’t show him that. Or what I try to not show him. I don’t know. But I was trying to show him that. I have nothing. So could be like. I’m talking with you like friends. So I told him. This is my job. It’s not even answered by this accent. By this way. This is my job. What talk about? He told me. Yeah. But we hear something else. Like maybe paint. Do something. Like blah blah blah. He just mean like art. No. Of course not. I use colors. Yes. I start to. Like this. And. I don’t know if he believe me. I don’t think. They. And I hear it one time. From one of them. In Turkey. This is another story. They believe too much. From. To believe in anybody from them. If he lie. If he do. If he just gonna to tell them like. I saw now dinosaur flying. They will believe him. That he saw flying dinosaur. They don’t care. He told me. One time another story. If we have time or I don’t know. And tell you what. Yeah. So he told me like. Okay. But let me see you in this. To come to pray. I don’t know. Let’s meet. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And all of this. And I try to make my accent. And I make mistakes. Between accent. Syrian accent. And Iraqi accent. You can’t just understand. This person is not from here totally. And he like. Accent. And I told him he was living in Syria for a while. There is a lot of Iraqi living there. So we are just living there. And we back here. I just like. You know. Try to escape from this conversation. I don’t think he totally believe me. But yeah. It’s okay. We will see each other. Like. It’s not direct way. He told me. He just show me that. There is an eye on you. In this meaning. That you not like. We didn’t. It’s not done. Like, not finished here. So yeah. Okay. Meet you there. See you there. And for me it was like … Now should to move. It’s end. I can’t. If now I just. Play it. Next time I will not. Or I will make some mistake. It’s not life. Even I will make it very good way. Every time I will lie to be perfect. And you know. Survive. But it’s not life. Till when. It’s not me. But after this, I think, not long time. Maybe one week or more. Ten days. Something like this. It’s not very big time. And happen what happened. When they, Daesh, what we call them. I don’t want to call them ISIS. Because they. Al-Qaeda. Osama Bin Laden. You know. Al-Qaeda. They didn’t translate. Al-Qaeda. They call it by Arabic name. Al-Qaeda. Yeah. You sure? It’s like this. So for Daesh. They name it Daesh, but they call it ISIS. ISIS for me. Because I study. And I paint about. Mythology. ISIS is Isis. Isis for me it’s in Egypt. And she is God. And a lot of talking about this. So. Yeah. So. Anyway. They came. And. It was at night. One o’clock. It was very strange day. That day when they came. Because. Normally at evening there is no life outside at all. Would be never. Start to become five, six o’clock of the evening. You cannot go anywhere. Maybe near your house. With your neighbors. With your friends. Just close. But by car. And go so far. It’s so difficult. You will get the problems. With the army there. Or not army. Because it’s time. For those kind of people. To go outside. To kill. To … whatever that they want. So it was danger. And. You always just hear this. Big vans or cars. For military with this noise. You understand just like there is military there. But in that day. It was silent. And. It’s really silent. You can hear nothing. It was strange. It’s like you just. Trying to get some noise. From this city. You just understand that this city is like a zombie city. Ghost city. Just silent. So not even. Those cars for army. For military. Nothing at all. So very strange. Even we start us, like it’s something weird today. What’s going on. And. We were sitting. We have very big and full moon. We were sitting outside. Outside means because the house there. It was two floors. And there is small garage for cars. And some houses have little garden. Small. And with walls. Like villa. This kind of. So we were sitting because it was summer. I think summer. Because we were sitting outside. And. There is no electricity. And. We just talking. This time. Just talking. And there is moon. And we start to hear some people outside. Move in the street. Or somebody take his car. And move by car. And it’s impossible. Even if you have some emergency. Emergency you want to go to hospital. It’s very. Really very hard. We start to hear some people. Do something outside in the street. And I remember my father. He go outside. And he talk with our neighbor. And he just back. And he told us. Gather everything. We will move. What? Look. Imagine yourself. Where are we? What’s happening here? What’s going on here? And say. Yes Daesh is come. And they already talk. More than half of the city. And we talk about very big city. Not a small city.
[i] Which city?
[r] The Mosul. It’s very big city. And. Start to. People start to move. Go outside. Take cars and move. And you serious? You have your own house. What you should to take with you. By. No reason. I had small bag. I prepare it. Every day. I spend there. I just. You know this idea grow up in your mind. I should to move. And I trust my feeling. That I should to move. Or something. Something will happen. Or I’m gonna to move. I don’t care. And so I prepare small bag. Put few stuff. Or maybe my passport. Or some important papers. Or something like that. Documents. So I prepare it already. Small bag. But it’s not like serious. To leave. Like as my father came to say. But he say no. It’s serious. We start in that moment. We start to hear some shooting outside. So I remember my sister. She had small children. They were sleeping. And we just take them from the bed. Just sleeping. They don’t know anything. It’s so sad moments. As go up man or person. You can handle a lot of things. But. I’m talking about my system. For me. I don’t care. I can handle any situation. I’m fighter. I can fight. Fight by any meaning you want. Physical. By mind. Spirit. Shoot to survive, I’m survivor. I can do it. I have pain. I’m tired. I’m done. But I should not give up. I will fight. But this is small moments. For me. It’s broke me. Or make something in my mind. When I look to my sister children. She take them from the bed. They have this eyes. You know somebody sleep. He want to sleep. Like mom just sleep. He want to sleep. He don’t know when he ask mom. Let me sleep. All his life will change. In that moment. So big moment. So big. And we wasn’t mess time. Because we should to prepare what. You don’t know what is it. You should to do it. And but stop me this point. To talk about. To look to this moment. And I. I feel bad. I feel sad. Really. So I jump to my room. I take my paints. I cannot take the … The canvas from the wood. The frame. So I take some knife and cut it. Around. I take just the paint, the canvas. I gather maybe three or four. Big paints like this. And I have some sculptures. And I made like. Kind of nude. Models like. Body or something. And all what I think about. They really came. And go inside. And they will. So all this stuff. Artists stuff. They will not even look at me. You know. They will not like. You really. They will not ask me. They will just kill me. With very very very bad way. So I was thinking. You know. In this moment. A few seconds maybe. But all this like moving in your mind. If they will come. If they will do. If they will see that. Okay. They will kill me. But okay. What about my family. So. You start to think about. Even your family makes scenario. And in that moment. I just move. Just cut them. I decide to cut them. But I can’t. It’s my paint. I can’t do it. What I should do. To hide them in that few, few seconds. And we should to leave. I take the sculptures. Because I don’t know I was … Just in a motion. I broke them. On the ground. And I take the pins. The pins I cannot. So. In the ceiling. We have like pieces of wood. Yeah. So it’s like corridor. And the ceiling there. So I start to jump on this. By legs and hands. And open this and put the pins. And some sketches for. Whatever what I draw. I put them on closet. And for me it’s like. Yeah. Goodbye. Maybe I will meet you sgain. Maybe not. But just I want them to disappear. From there. So I did this. For me it’s like. Really like you say goodbye to somebody. Like. And you don’t know if you will meet him anymore. And we move. Where we gonna to move?
[i] Who? With whom were you? Was it your father?
[r] I was with my father. My mother. My sisters. Two sisters. I have three sisters actually. But one she was studying. And she living in Canada. And. And two childs. And. At night. And you should to leave. Just leave. What side? Where? Where you should to move? And we haven’t car at that moment. So. We haven’t car. And we just should to walk outside. And. Our neighbor. They have. They have car at that moment. And. He have his own family. But he say. Okay. You can by. You and like me and my father. We can walk. And he will take my mom. Like women, they will be in the car. He will bring them like little far. And we decide to meet each other. Maybe I don’t know how many kilometer. Very far. Out of the city. So even this is danger. Because we don’t know where. Where they go. And. You start to think like. In this mess. Where you should to meet them out. You going to meet them. They cannot do anything there. And when we start to move. I start to put bag here. And my father. And take some stuff with us. And we just move from like little street. We go to. Very big road. And we start to find hundreds of people. They walk. Hundreds of people. I didn’t saw. Like this. Only in the way. When we came here to Europe. Hundreds of people. Not anybody, with my respect, can understand this. What this mean. That you see somebody. In his own home. In his own country. He take bag. With package. With children. He leave everything. And he just move. He don’t know where he want to go. Nothing. Hard. And sad. More than this. It was really something. You use this street every day. Maybe just to walk. But to use it for last time in your life. There is details. There is details. Your mind. He not gonna to tell you about the details. He gonna to tell you about that later. In the future. One time. You will be too much relaxed. Too much thinking. This will come to your mind. Time to tell you. You remember that street. You not gonna to back there. You have to use this street. Just to walk every day. But. It’s hundreds of people. With children. At night. Just walk. They walk a lot. Because the big city. And when they came. We start to ask them. What’s going on? And they told us the ISIS came. And start to kill people. And they talk everything there. So we leave. And just move. So wow. It’s mean serious. Now you start to understand more. Become clear. All the picture. The image. It’s serious. It’s done. It’s finished. Where is the military, where is the army? Where is all of this? They told us. Nobody was there. So all of this. Later we start to understand that. The government give this way. It’s give this way. Just government. And they. How to say that. Open the door. Let the door open. And they told. For some people. Um. With… When we move. With people. We start to help. Somebody have another package bag. Just to help. I can’t do it. So we take this. We start to move with them. And you know. They start to talk. We all afraid and scared. And move. And we don’t know what’s going on. But we talk. You know what’s happened there. You know. And. Yeah. Some. Some people. They are. Because. How to explain it. The military there. The people of. Who is from the same city. They all almost take them to another city. Put them there. Or put the fuel of … Like this is Antwerp. It’s your city. So you will be a soldier in this city. To defend your home. Your city. Your house. Your whatever. They don’t let all guys or people from the same city. Becoming military and soldiers. Because. They have another kind of agenda and system. In the government. It’s what we called about Shia and Sunni. So. They put them all from another. From capital they send them. So. He not gonna to kill himself. And die. Because of me or because of somebody else. Government. Give this way to just leave this. Your job today. You disappeared. And they came. Just a few people. And a few who is already from around this city. Or like not so far. Or from the city. But it’s really very few. They not too much. And they was talking about that. We was alone. They leave us alone. We don’t know what’s going on. Just buy cars. Some cars. We don’t understand anything. So. It was very sad. And by the way. We just move. Walking. And after we start to have shooting between our legs. I just remember. I jump from bullets. Like this. And some bullets like this. And we just run. It was. They became more close. Those Daesh. And they make like shooting with. There was a few. Who stay in like an army. Very normal people. Not even strong. Or with heavy weapons. And just pistol maybe. Pistol what you gonna to do. Pistol with. You know. We talk here about dash. And we don’t need to details. Because all people. All world know what they have. Take like movie. We move for, I don’t know, two hours. Or three hours maybe. And after in some point. We almost out of this city. We gonna to… And the way to go to Kurdistan. And that part. And. We start to see the cars of Kurdistan army. They came. They came by cars with. You know, with weapons. With everything. Soldiers. They like. Okay. Maybe they will. Maybe. Like stop them. We just have dream about this. In that moment. Because you are tired. So. But they just go maybe five ten minutes. And they back. Again. Nothing. They just back. And you can find there like thousands of people start to be in that area. And until to find my family. My mother and sisters. And they said. Okay. And after we start like to call some. Somebody else. Maybe from family or friends. Maybe somebody have car to can come to bring us. Because it’s impossible to find even way. But it was mess because. It’s like movie. You take children with your hands. You run. You escape. Yeah. It was like this. And after we move. Somebody come to bring us. And after we move to Kurdistan for maybe, maybe two weeks. We stay there.
[i] Together with your family.
[r] With my family. It was impossible to stay there. Because… It’s impossible to find a house. To rent house there. Because it is full. Some people start to sleep in streets. They cannot find house. And another reason that. Some. Not all of course. I cannot say all about any. Any people in this world. But some of people who live in there in Kurdistan. They was not happy at all. Because they hate, or they have problems with Arabian people. Kurdish people. Not all of course. Totally. But some who have this dark soul. They start to show this. They start to hurt by talking. By another way. So. It’s impossible to stay there. And until when. You don’t know. You lose everything. So we move. We go to Turkey. And in Turkey. It’s another part to survive. To… Figure out everything. To find work. And it’s impossible there. It’s impossible really. And at least. Last thing we find. We found like school. For Arabian people who live in Turkey. And… They give like a small opportunity to let, Arabian people. Not like for children. Not lose his. His life and future. To learn something. The problem that I have a lot. I don’t want to talk about because it’s hurt. Not because it’s secret. I don’t want to talk. Nobody around support. Like. In Iraq government it was bad. Until now it’s bad. So you have two enemies in Iraq. Kurdish. Sorry. Islamic people and government. This is one. Two problems. You cannot survive with them. You will not normal people. Not person. After that we go to Kurdistan. Or. This Kurdistan. It’s become a problem with half those people. They don’t want Arabian people. And they start to do something bad with them. So. Yeah. You already this part of one country is Iraq. Now you want to make it one. Okay. Yeah. I’m not gonna to care about anybody. If you will agree about what I’m talking about or not. This is my opinion. I respect anybody. But when you come to hurt me. I’m not gonna to say. Yes okay of course. Stop here. It’s not mean because I have bad situation. You should to do it with this way. Anyway. So. In Kurdistan not all people support. And Turkey. They didn’t support. Just came yes. Come come come here come here. And there is a lot of bad things happened there. A lot of bad things happened there. Started from camps. Started from children. Who disappeared from these camps. Between Syria and Turkey. Started from buying and selling children. Few hundreds. You can buy a child. They came from all the world. They buy a child. Children. Of course we not gonna to talk about young girls. It’s normal. This will happen like this. But I’m talking about child. For five years. Six years. Some group came like… He is like in. Want to give like kind of medicine or pills. And they give something to make this child sick. And he not get sick. He just. Something. Playing game. And after bring him to. Oh we will take him to hospital. And after they were about to tell this mom. We so sorry. He died. He is not. There is money. There is business come there. And business what I don’t want to talk about. I have more to talk about. About this.
[i] Where did you stay in Turkey?
[r] In Turkey we stay in Adana. One city there. South of Turkey. And. I start to work like as a teacher. I wanted to be like you know. To be like for art or paint teacher. But in that time they had already one teacher. Teaching art. And paint. So I start to give like sport class, course. So for me. Yeah okay. I can have this. Like sport. But all the time. It was like winter. So I start to give them just paint.
[i] Instead of sport.
[r] Because it’s rain outside. It’s impossible to be outside. And there is no. Not good condition. School or to have a place for sport. Don’t talk about this. Turkish people and children and students when they finish. Arabian people they go after. You know, for a few hours. Yeah. So. It’s almost night. And there is no opportunity to make a sport. So. Sometimes if it’s good weather. I bring them outside to make a sport. But mostly we just give them paint. And yeah. Yeah so we live. I live there for one year. And. One year or something. One and a half something like that. And. After we. It’s like. It’s not. I’m going to think about myself. It’s not I didn’t make anything yet. Again it’s very bad. Again it’s. I didn’t do what I should to do. What I want to do. This was difficult more. Yes you have more free. You have. You more free to do. But. Of course you haven’t language. And you haven’t this… Who can even show you or give you or tell you. One time. In Syria we did this. We made like a group to let children from schools, from streets, young people. Whatever and. Any person who wants to come. And we just give them material to paint. And we share this. Time to paint. Just paint. This was like activity. We did this maybe few times. We go even to another cities. We start to. This was good. This was fun. This was first is fun. Second is make a lot of people came in that moment. You know. This kind of. So. In that time in Turkey. I start to talk with somebody. He was a journalist. And I told him. I want to do something like this here. Between Arabian children and Turkish children. Because they so far. Too much far from each other. By language or by teaching. Parents. What they teach. No don’t. For Arabian no. They want to survive. He will be happy to have this contact with… Relationships with some Turkish as friends. But for Turkish people. Not all of us accept this. Very little. So it’s all this idea. Start to talk about. We already, I did this before, so… Find for us some opportunity to can make this. And he like the idea. Too much. The idea is. Between Arabian children. And Turkish children. He start to ask some people. Here and there. And finally he told me. Yeah they have like some kind of holiday. And there. Important day for children. Or something like that. And we can make this activity there. So I was very happy. We go to buy the material. And I was really happy. To can make this again. You see this children. Just come to paint. And we will make big paints. And we will put it on the wall. And something very important. For me. So. When we went there. After we bring the material. And the stuff what we need. I was happy. A lot of people. They came there. I found that he give for some team. They become us. Some Turkish team. And they become like they own this project. They own it. By ideas. By meaning. By. By everything. So I was totally outside of this. And. This one. Okay. I don’t like it. It’s something you did. It’s not because of me. Because it’s beautiful to say. Now. Somewhere you come to say. In Belgium. That there is somebody. His name … Wherever. He came. He’s Arabic. And he want to do something here. It’s not because of my name. It’s because of. What you gonna tell people. They will like that. Yes. Somebody came here. A newcomer here, he want to do something here. Something beautiful. Yeah. But do not talk about this. It’s like your own idea. You understand me. What is next point? Next point is. When they came to bring people. Children. They bring Turkish people. Children. And they didn’t bring or invite Syrian children. They invite. Okay. Not Syrian or Iraqi. We all Arabian. And we all from Middle East. And we all have the same situation. I always even hear answer. From where I answer. I’m from the Middle East. Syrian or Iraqi. Whatever. I’m Arabic. And I came here a newcomer. So they bring children. I don’t know. Turkmenistan. If you Europe. Or you know about it. They already. Originally from Turkey. They from Turkey. Originally. From Turkmenistan. And they live in Iraq. So you bring not even Arabic. You understand the point? You invite children. Turkish children already. And children. Well they live in another country. But they already originally they from Turkey. There is no Arabic child there. So everything what I was trying to build or to make. Nothing. And I cannot even open my mouth. They start to jump. Like monkeys there. They own everything. I didn’t talk anything. And I felt bad when I start to read that. They write about this. That Turkish group from, Example like gemeente [municipality] or somewhere… They create this activity to mix. Or to make activity for Arabian children. Wow. Yeah again. They put spotlight on them. And I. Again I just want to repeat it. It’s not about my name. It’s about you know the meaning when. Somebody came and he want to do. When you have this. You understand. So this make me again. That okay. I try to do something here and I trust you guys. Okay. So it’s not anymore. And. Another reason. For you to stop or want me to…
[i] Yeah sure, tell me more.
[r] No, just tell me, because I told you. Maybe all people who have a lot of details. When you change a lot. You will see a lot. But yeah. One another reason it was because. To start to think that we should do. I should do from there. Because. My father, he was teaching in the same school. And one time. As to one person. He always visit that school. He is with, you know, like a Islamic figure. By the… And he always came by to help. Or bring some kind of gifts or whatever for children. And after I understand that he is kind of… Kind of something. Not direct. He is like in this Islamic group. Already in Syria and Iraq. What he doing here. For me okay. I am not in this. I will not touch him. He will not touch me. And. One time. My father. Is good teacher. And all guys or children they love him so much. They love how he teach. And they respect him so much. And one time. I was not there. Exactly in that moment. I was somewhere else. And that man. He came from outside. He got direct. He didn’t talk with anybody. Like. Like another teachers. Like somebody else. He got direct to the class. And. He started talk with children there. He was like buiten [outside] there in that moment. Like that teacher. He was. He is not good person. About my father. He talk something wrong. He is not a real agent. Something. Some bullshit stupid things. It’s totally not my father. And who are you? He came. Really who are you? He came. What you want? And children start to answer him. That you wrong. This teacher is very good. And we love him. It’s not like this. The start to, like, children support. And by talking. Like hey. What you talking about? No no. It’s wrong. Everything is wrong. What you hear. He said because we hear something. We hear something. That he blah blah blah. After. It’s become more. It’s become a problem. He live in school. You can just understand who has control there. And there is government, there is politics, I think, and there is… What the point of this story. What is important. What I. Why I remembered what I want to say. I start to ask. The children there. I start to get information. To understand who bring some information. Wrong information. So. I catch by names. Four or five children. Eight or nine maximum. Ten years. I get information from friends of them. You can’t imagine. Ten, eleven years. And he is soldier. Soldier of that group. Islamic groups. And he told me by the name. And because they. Because friends. So they talk. And they have this support. And this is the point what I told you. I’m going to tell you. Because they believe that even a child. They grow up. Anything. You don’t have to tell them. They will believe it. He can be called that child. Because he is stupid in this course. In this class. So kind of punished. Because. You write something wrong. So you don’t deserve. You are bad. You just. You should to study. So he felt that, because of that. From my father. His teacher. And he go to tell. Tell them some fake information about. He is bad. He says something wrong. Somebody came to. It’s movie. It’s Texas. And it’s child. When I. Child. Yeah.
[i] And these kind of situations. Made you decide also to leave.
[r] Yeah. This is very. Yeah. When it happened like this. Because I was. I was very angry. And my father told me. If you’re going to be in this. Too much. Because I. I decide to do something wrong in that moment. That this person. If you want. If I will meet him in the school. Again. I will going to make a lot of big things. I will not care about anything else. Of course. I care only about my parents. And my father was there. But I told him I’m going to stop. Go to that job. I will disappear. But I will catch him. Outside in some way. I will hunt him by this way. Because it’s bullshit. It’s the criminals. Who come to judge you. You know. And children. You don’t know. You should to be angry from them. Or should to feel sorrow. Child. 11, 10 years. They claim his mind. What about government. There is no government. So that’s why for me it’s done. Again. This period in my life. I can’t anymore. Or I’m going to. Make something stupid. Because some emotion. And. I will do something wrong. For myself or somebody else. What I mean something wrong. Maybe if you just can fight. Face to face with somebody like that. He can hurt you very bad. He just can give you some. You maybe. Police through the police. Or through the. His group. Even if you will just fight by talking. Why you did this. Why you should. Even with this. But to keep and just shut up. And shut up yourself. You need power to do that. A long time. I told you. From country to country. To period to period. It’s too much. So I decide to move. I don’t know where. I have no idea where. But I should to move. This is a voice inside my mind. And this is my chance. If I’m not take it. This will be wrong. Something wrong in my life. So yeah. So. It was by accident. I was talking with my friend. He already. He told me he have wife and two children. And he already living here in Europe. In France. But he told me if you can. If you want to have way to come. Just because I have wife and children. Can you care about them. And. For me it’s. Yeah. It’s kind of to help. And kind of yeah. It’s okay. This is my chance to move. And. So. I had only just couple days. Or three days. To be ready to all of this. Again. I’m not ready. Not like prepare myself. Take time. No. Yeah, they will leave after three days, so be ready. I’m not ready. I start to run like this. Even I hadn’t time. In that moment to … To goodbye my family. Because I don’t know when I’m gonna to meet them. Next time. So. When we move from Iraq. You haven’t. You hadn’t that moments to goodbye the house, the stuff. When you prepare yourself. You should to leave forever from some country. Even this breathe outside. You gonna to respect him. Or give him some. You understand. You gonna to look to the sky. Or somewhere. And you know deeply in your mind. That you gonna to leave. So. It’s kind of goodbye to everything around you. Even small details. So you prepare. You ready to do it. Even with last touch to that door. When you close it. And you will leave. You just like you say goodbye. So. I hadn’t this. When we leave. I hadn’t this. When I leave from Syria. Because for me I was leaving for a few months. Couple months. Three months maximum. And for me. I will back. That is not like big deal or big problem. So I didn’t goodbye my everything there. Really like this. A lot of things like. You have tomorrow. Maybe you have appointment. I just call. You know I will. I will back later. So I didn’t in Syria. Not in Iraq. And Turkey the same. Just couple days. Three days. Even like your family. You should prepare yourself. To be ready. And we just came. On this way. And another part. I always was thinking about to write my story. Like as a book. As a story. And I will one time. With more details. But it’s really. For me it’s strange. Because I change a lot. Many countries. Iraq, Syria, Turkey. I for. Like just jump. From here to there. And what more. Yeah so. I decide just. Okay let’s go. And three days. And we start to another part of this story. We start to find a way to come here. And it’s totally another movie. With a lot of more details. Experience. Because it was. Yeah. It’s. Kind of. Here you should to use physical with mind. Before it was. Because you cannot do something physical. So you. You make experience. Or taste something new. By mind my soul. Even it’s bad. Or you don’t like it. But now this part. You should to use your skills. Yeah. And to survive. And to survive is not easy. Here because. When we start. We go to some city near the sea. In Turkey. And there is thousands of people. Who came just to move. And. Thousands of people. Who have no home. It’s.
[i] Which city in Turkey. You remember?
[r] I forget the name. I forget the name. But. Every single person. I think he came from that city. It’s too much. They know it. Yeah. So. You start to hear about stories. For some people who… Yeah before few days. I was trying. In the middle of the sea. And our boat. And one died. Somebody. I catch him. But I couldn’t. I couldn’t to help him. So he died. Wow. Thank you. You start to be ready to this kind of scenario. And. Yeah. It’s a very bad situation. Sleeping everywhere. Sleeping on the street, sleeping on the street, street, family, children… Cover themselves by pieces of papers. For me. I was just feel so bad. Because I haven’t cam, small cam. To record everything. To film everything. It’s more be more than. It’s. I cannot say it’s perfect. Like it’s wow. I’m happy. But. So be this finger. I don’t know how to say that. This pain you know. Just push more to feel more pain. But I was trying to film everything in my mind. Like, as a movie. Because until now I remember by exactly how I was looking. What I hear in that moment. The light of everything. I study a bit. To be like director but…
[i] Did you paint or.
[r] So I start to draw. When I have this good moment. Because. I carry my bag. I carry stuff. With two children with me. And it was with me my cousin. He came with me. He was with us. He was visit us and he cannot back. He leave his family in Mosul actually. So he came with me. And just by accident. He is the last person who can believe that he will one time leave his country. Because he don’t like this. But he had a choice. And he is with me. So like kind of support. So yeah. So. When I had this moment. To come paint or draw. Just draw on something. So I start to hunt it. This moment. Or I just keep in my mind. By exact the details. To draw it later. This is what happened. So from there we start to move. When we start to move. Actually we was maybe 70 or 80 percent. They told us. Big yacht. But this big yacht. You can imagine yacht. Maybe little naked girls out. Up there. Or maybe drink. But it’s not yacht at all. It’s some kind of small boat. Small boat like. Like no. Just kill me. But don’t let me go in. Because I am totally going to die. Not this boat. But you can just sit. And you have sky up there. Because. And this is danger too. But you can’t just jump. Swimming. Trying to survive. You have opportunity. But this is like yacht. But small. And we go in. And when we start to go in. Very fast. And. It’s probably like. Like. We didn’t choose the place. But we go to the… You know. The beginning of the boat. In this shape. So we go inside from… in this part. So very small place. Like this maybe. Two meters maximum. And one meter and a half. Or two meters like this. Very small. So. In this place. It was something like sofa. Like this. Maybe one meter from the ground. And small. And we just was sitting like that. And. I was with my cousin. Two persons. One girl with her brother. And her cousin. So three with five. Six. Maybe six or seven persons. An area like this. I’m talking about. We just sit like this. And. My cousin. I know he, he is not hero man. He always normal person. And he have phobia from this kind of places. Before we start to move. From there. He turn off the light. Because this boat have light. And there is you know. We don’t want any police. Or somebody to see this. So until he will just move. He will put this light back again. But in this moment. When he. Seventy or seventy. Between seventy and eighty persons. We have ten children. Children with us. It was ten. And one baby. Small baby. Maybe. He have a few days. In age. And. When we start to move. And without light. We have a small window. Up there like this. It’s just too small. To open it for just little air. Or something. It’s really. All your life came back in that moment. It’s like. No chance if any accident will happen. We just dead. We can’t. And we start to move. Just a few meters. In the sea. And some girls start to cry. Because they have this phobia. And you cannot breathe. They start to cry. And other guys. They start to scream. We don’t want. Just leave. Leave us. Stop scream. One of them. My cousin. He start to, he try to breathe. He can’t. And I start to be like. I think I was thinking only about my cousin. I just want him to calm. Hey. Just focus. Listen to my voice. Look at me. Just forget everything around. Nothing will be… everything will be okay. Just handle it. We will. We will. And the time is only just couple hours. We will be in Greece. It’s not long time. And he was in very bad situation. And this boat. When he start to move. Because we in the beginning of this boat. Like this. So all the wave. Of the sea. From this small window. He start to come in. A lot of water inside. So first time he… This water jump on us like. You know. You sit in this small place. And you have water on you. A lot. And all the wave come inside. And darkness. And people screaming. People crying. And you should to calm down yourself. Just to survive. So. Here, you know, this from movies. When you stop listen to anything. Just silent. But everything around you is just moving. Move with voice. With faces. And your memory start to come. And your everything. Your family. Your parents. Your self. Even your self. The person who you grow up with. Is your self. Every day you see him in mirror. So. So I start to calm down them. He put the light little back. And nothing change. Because this waves just come. Inside. We become. Really like we come by swimming. A lot of water. So we haven’t choice. So we close this window. But we haven’t way to breathe. We cannot breathe normal. So we start to have. To choose. Between breathe or to swim. With this wave. So. Nobody from the guys have his normal mind to do it. But I decide tocontrol this window. So I take off my t-shirt. I sit on my knees. And this like. Like sofa. All of this place. So I was close to this. And I start to close it. When I hear the wave. Move on the body of the boat. When I hear it. I just close it. To let this water not come in. When I hear it just move. By voice. I open it just to breathe. And the same time. I was looking to. I don’t no what’s called this boat in the boat. Yeah.
[i] I know what you mean.
[r] The name I don’t know in English. I was looking to this. So sometimes it disappeared. Because he moved very fast. And big waves. I. Let me just tell you that. The way what get two hours. We get nine hours. In this situation. This is the beginning. You have to imagine before everything. So I make relationships with this piece of wood. I start to talk with this piece of wood. From this small window. So I start to think. If this will disappear. Too much. It means it’s time to jump. I know I haven’t chance. Because you know, boat in a small area. By water all wave will be inside. Nobody can survive. Nobody. Because this is strong wave. It’s strong water. You cannot push it at all. So I start to think that. I have only few seconds. Only when this turmoil disappear. It means we are ready. We done. We already down. So I should to jump now. But how I should to jump. And my cousin there. And he cannot swim. In any way. He don’t know how to swim. He will kill me. If I will care about him. But maybe I will. I start to make movie. And. For five. First five hours. And it’s not joke here. First five hours. I was sitting on my knees. I didn’t put my hands and my arms down at all. Just walk like this. I get too much tired. And sleepy. I want just to sleep. And because I push too much. So one of this like. Hands of this. One of them is broke. So this window start to not close. You still have this area. Like this open. Even if you close it very very strong. So. So. It’s a close or not a close. It’s just this wave on you. And. Yeah. First five hours. It was like this. I remember we had. I bring with me lemon. I know that if somebody have this from the sea. Maybe lemon juice can. So I start to take. Cut it by my fingers. And give to people around me. One girl to my cousin. And just tell them. Just focus on this. To taste this juice. Yeah. So five hours I didn’t. After that I get tired. I will die. I can’t anymore. And when we closed this water on me. This water down. He become. He covered our feet. Our shoes. For people who sit. So we already heavy. Almost 80% And this waste. And water inside. Until here. So guys if somebody will not help me. We gonna to die here. So they start to find something. Plastic. And they start to take water and give me. So I should to open. Put the water outside. Close it. But this wave become more and more and more. For nine hours. After five hours I close my eyes. I told them I will sleep. So, I gave up. And I lie like this. On the people. I don’t care. I am tired. And I close my eyes. And I really sleep. I sleep really. I talk with myself. Like maybe I am gonna to open my eyes. Like later. Maybe not. Maybe I will not wake up. But I don’t care. I really want to sleep. So I sleep. But I don’t remember how much. Of course not too much. Because this waves on me. This water on me. It’s not make any difference. So after I… I just open my eyes. I found the same mess everywhere. Nobody even care to come to this window again. So okay. I back to my job again. We spend nine hours. After… It’s become morning. And small island. Greece island. We jump there. And… One girl she jump. And she broke her leg from first second. When she jump. Because the police was follow us all the time. Why we get nine hours? It’s just couple hours. Because this police just was follow. And he was like make circles. To escape. Yeah. We become in some island. Too much hot. Too much hot. Warm weather. We hungry. We just suffer. And somebody. I don’t know how. He have some information. From somebody before him or something. That there is a small church here. We can just go there. And we will be saved. And that’s, you know, place for God place. And we found this church. It’s just room. Like this size. Like half this area. Just room. Old building. Very beautiful. And there is nothing around. Like desert. And rocks. We was just tired. We went to… There is a big tree. We sit under this tree. Take just rest. You know. Most people. Old man with big beard. And long hair. Very dark skin from the sun. He is like fishing man. Or something like this. He have very special character. He was almost naked. When he was short. Slim too much. And… He have this body. You know. We should to use this body a lot. He came with two big packages. Food and water. Yeah. It was first like… Relax. And it was first step too for us. We start to move again and again. From place to place. And… From police station to police station. We should to make some papers. And agree. To… Let us… leave the country. Like we came. And we will leave. Because they know already. We not coming to stay there. Yeah. And they keep us in one… Police station. This is what I draw more. Because it was very bad. We all the time sleeping at… Everywhere. But… It was very bad place. Because… Every day. All this way. All this road. You decide the area where you will sleep. Even if you will sleep in… Wild. Forest. Garden. Street. You decided. But in that moment. That police. He was very bad person. It was stairs like this. Very long stairs. And very old houses. From here and here. And this police station office, it was just a house. And he had even like… A small garden or something. He can’t even invite the people to be inside. But he decided to… Keep them on the stairs. And not let them even to go… down the stairs. Maybe on the street. Or go to find hotel. Pay for hotel. Go to find some place. He say no. I want you all guys only on the stairs. So… This was very bad. And… Stairs this was like… I… Measured that… Maybe like this. Not like this size. So we sleep like this. And… All the night. Very cold. And… Again it’s not only about yourself. Talk about me. Again it’s about… Around you. I was lying. I draw some of this.
[i] What did you draw?
[r] I draw some who was sleeping under him. He put a new papers. He was sleeping like… child. I draw some people who… Because he fat. He’s fat. He cannot lie on the stairs. It’s impossible. So he just sit. Half his body. Half his leg. On this stair and another. And he just put his back on the wall. And he sleep. You find people who… Hug his back. And… Cover himself by his jacket. Or put jacket on his back. Or cover his head. And you talk about children. You talk about moms. Women. Old. You talk about people. Next day… Um… They want to… We get up. Next day morning. And they start to want to… You know children. From this sea. This water. They become too much salt in body. Even me. I suffer from it. I just want to take a shower. I can’t. It’s eat my body. You know. The salt. It was very warm. Very hot water. And next day. Because we was sleeping there. We get up. Why? Because one old, bad person, lady, she throw a lot of water from up there. And talk very bad language. Like get out. Like get out. Why you sleeping here. You can understand without translating. What kind of talking. So yeah. This is the first. After Greece. They keep us. One night. Or two nights. They keep us in the station. Another station. They keep us like jail. Normally they should. Just to make one paper. That you came on legal. And you have three days to leave. And that’s it. But that’s general. Or I don’t know. He was. He asked for money. From us. Why we should to leave. We already haven’t. And if you have in this situation. You will keep it. You don’t know what’s going on. For tomorrow. And he choose this very bad time. To keep us. Maybe two or three days. Two days I remember. I’m not sure. In very bad place. Just terrace. Not even room. So I draw there too. I had good time. I start to draw around. Those sketches for people. Of course. Or wherever. Some yacht. Or mountain. Just what I see. The view. Under my eyes. I draw there. After we leave. Go to Athens. The capital. And we move from there. We go to Serbia. And we talking about moving by walking. Yeah. It’s too much details. If I’m going to tell you. All of this. But from Serbia. We go to Macedonia. Or Macedonia before. I just don’t remember. Yeah. And after to Kosovo, I think. I don’t remember. I don’t remember. That exactly. What country. After country. But after because we don’t want to. Bulgaria. I don’t know. I think they was catching people. I then put them in jail there. They suffer. So in that period. In that time. We decide to pay. To bring us by cars. To not cross this country by walking. So we sit in small van.
[i] With whom were you traveling? Still with the persons.
[r] Yeah.
[i] The wife of your friend.
[r] She was with me. And this is the… It was not easy. She have small children. And it was difficult. Children you know. And I already have. Carry my bag. And I carry her another bag. On my body here from. And I take one child in my arm. And take stuff. And sometimes we should to run. So we run. You. You already dead. You tired. You can’t move. Your body stop listen to you. But you should to run in this situation. And my cousin too. He care about another child. Another bag. He have his own bag. And after just run. Yeah. We cross. We walk a lot. From Macedonia to Serbia. And I remember in Serbia. Because even my English was. Less than half. Than what I talk now. I didn’t. I was not like talk very well. So I ask to somebody to bring us. Or to show us the way. How? I start to ask some people in street. Some Arabic people. About. Can you tell me somebody. We will pay money maybe to show us or bring us to… And they give me… Give me number of somebody. And I call him. And by two words in English. He don’t speak very well English. In Serbia. In Belgrade. And yeah. We meet like. Okay. We will meet. And that time. And I meet him. Mafia. So follow me. I follow him. And go to somewhere. And he told me. I have here like hotel. And you should to come at night. And at night we will move. We make like almost a deal. I don’t know those people. And you know what it mean. Serbia and mafia there. And you just nobody there. You just disappeared. And nobody ask about you. So I back to tell them. Guys be ready today. At night we going to move. Yeah you know. We will make this deal. I don’t know anything. Like you. What we can do. We can’t stay anymore. Every night you will spend more. It mean you will spend more money from what you have. So you cannot to play this game. You should to move very fast. To use this money. Anything you will get to buy food or drink. Except from the money what can make you take more steps. So. It’s risky. At night we go to that hotel. It’s hotel like. It’s not hotel. It’s just old wood door. Go through the corridor. Darkness. It’s like in movie you know. We go to some kind of apartment. With red light. Small apartment. Every room somebody you know. Old naked lady. She was there. Yeah, you can imagine what kind of hotel is there. Yeah. Before we go there. I had my knife. So I opened my knife. And I put it under my t-shirt. And covered my t-shirt. And I told my cousin open knife. Because you cannot move there without. So. We really was in very bad place. And I told him. If something gonna to happen. So. He start to. It’s funny. And it’s bad at the same time. Because we start to think about. Who should to … to help. If you will have bad situation like this. Children or the wife of my … So difficult to choose. But. You should to choose. Like really. We start to talk about this. Women or this girl. Or her children. So we decide children. So I told him. If anything can be, and will happen inside. Just take the children both. Just hug them. Don’t do anything. And run outside. Try to find the way. Save the children. And I will try to do what I can do. But don’t think about her, to defend her. Just take the children. Leave the stuff. And just run outside. And I will do what I can. So we make deal. And we go in. And this place very strange. And there is two or three guys there. You can understand. They are like mafia. Like professional. Not just hobby. And we sit. And I told them. Nobody drink anything. Nobody eat anything there. Like this is number one. Number two. Don’t. If I am going to look at you. And tell you move or sit or do something. Listen to me. It was too much tired. Even for them. So this guy. I forget his name. They bring little cookies. Coca Cola. Something like that. And I just. I was looking to them. Let them eat or drink, you know. If you will sleep. I told her. If you will sleep. I am going to leave you here. If you sleep here. You are done. But she cannot stop the children. Children start to drink. So I start to make joke. And I say goodbye. Goodbye guys. I will miss you. After that. That person there. His name is Alex. The guy. He told me. He understands that. He told me. Don’t afraid. Don’t … be sure nothing will happen. If we want to do something wrong. We don’t need to give you food. So be relaxed. But I didn’t drink or eat anything. Anyway. I want to be focused. Yeah. After we make this deal. And for paying money. We pay money. Before to move. After some car bring us to. To. In some forest. And that forest. We meet all people. There is a lot. Many different group. Every group. He came through some person. Who promised him to bring him. But they all on to one person. Big one. He was really like general. Big guy. Maybe 20-30 persons. With radio. With weapons. Something professional. He was played very well. Yeah. And they bring those vans and cars. And they start to move us. And we move by car. And after we change to another guy. Sorry. Car. And. Yeah. And I don’t know. We cross Bulgaria. I don’t remember exactly which one. But one of these countries. This wife of my friend. She already make like some calls to some people. They will meet her. Her family or friends or something. So we leave them. In one part. And we change to another car. Almost we don’t see anything outside. One time it was a normal car. And after, just by hours and by days even. You don’t know outside. Where you are. So we stop in cab station or something. Just to go to bathroom. Or buy food. Like this way. And after we change to van. And this van we don’t see anything inside. Just we sit. And. Yeah until he came to Brussels. And.
[i] Did you decide to go to Brussels?
[r] No actually. We just don’t know. How to… Where and how we should to … And where. And. You hear just from people. Some people they say. We care only about maybe like documents or… Not about what they gonna to help you with. Because some countries. They don’t accept you. They just close the door. So first what you think about. They will accept you. They will listen to you. Take your case or not. So this was by accident. Yeah for my friend. From Brussels. He was another. He had another plan. He want to go to another country.
[i] Your cousin?
[r] Yeah. It was little… You know when you get tired too much. And the end of this way. It’s not like. Make fight. You little change your mood. Your reaction. You already like too much tired. I understand. It’s like. So we start to get little misunderstanding. Maybe this make him. We still in contact very well. Like brothers. But. In that time. We start to have little misunderstanding. So. Okay I will decide to go there. Listen to me. Let’s be together, anyway. Anywhere. It’s more better. You can help or you have somebody. He say no. I want to go. It’s your choice. So he go and I stay here. And I don’t know. It’s just I told you like by accident. We don’t know. We meet the people who want to bring us. And where you want. He told me and I don’t know. Really I don’t know where. Ask people like. What country can give this or accept your case. Or something. But it was without plan. Without… Yeah.
[i] And what was your first feeling, impression. When you arrived in Brussels. When you stepped out the car.
[r] Out the car. I had pain in my feet. Like hell. Because we walk for two weeks. Two weeks. You just walk, walk, walk with shoes. And I can’t anymore. It was more than pain. What make me not think about anything else. So first what I did. I start to walk on the streets. And I go to want to. So I go to […] and I bought another shoes. And I just change it. Not make me more better. But it was little. Little bit comfortable. I can just move a bit. So I start to ask for police station. So I want to go to tell them. But nobody tell me. Or even. Nobody told me that there is police station here. Or nobody even answer me. Because French. Talk with them like little English. And they don’t understand. And when you talk about something about police. Okay. He don’t care. Yeah. So I start to try to find police station. I didn’t. After. Of course in the center of Brussels. So I saw one Arabic person. He was talking with his friend. So I came to tell him. Now I came here and new. He was living here. Maybe 10 years ago or something. He told me. Yeah. Commissariat here. You can just go. He explained to me. And give me the address. And what you should to go at that morning. Like I have one night. I should to spend it there. So. I go to commissariat. And there is like park near there. And I meet some guys who already came. And it was so cold. So cold. Yeah. So we sleep. Covered by nothing. Too much cold. Until morning. 8 o’clock in the morning. They open the door. From that moment. Just send us to the camp.
[i] When did you arrive? Which year did you arrive?
[r] In 2015. Yeah.
[i] Now you are living here in Belgium. What are your priorities?
[r] Like.
[i] What are your goals now?
[r] Of course. If I am going to. After all of what I told you. I care about my kind of work. Of job. Like in art. This is number one for me. This is what I care about. More than what I care about my life. What make me escape. I told you. It was. First what I was thinking about. I should to make something for me. And it was kind of reason. Big reason what I cannot ignore it. Yeah. About situation. But for me. Is just to get back again. To make my dreams, what I should to make. To continue in art. And this. This is what I live for. So it’s not hobby. But yeah. So I. Before I. When I came to the camp. I start to ask them for… After couple days. So there is, like, kind of, for activity. Can give something for sport. For art. So I ask them for. If they have within material for paints. And they thought that, maybe little pencils. You know. With papers. For me it was joke. I told them no. I want colors like. Acrylic, oil, whatever. And canvas. If you have here. Just. Yeah, yeah, of couse, sure we have. So they give me something small. Small canvas. With little colors. And they was like happy to help. Something beautiful. Yeah I know. So I start to paint. And after I finish. First paint. And they like: Wow you serious here. And yeah I want more. If you have you can help me in this. So they start to help me. So they start to bring for me canvas. And they become my friends there. After a while they give me a small room. It was very small room. No light. No electric. No chauffage [heating]. It’s very cold. It’s no outside until me. And. But this is what they can help me. And for me I was glad for this. I have my own small atelier. Even it’s a small one. But it was snow. A lot of snow outside. So one night. It’s kind of funny moment. And to mix between fun and art or serious. So I start to ask my friends. Can you get that for me snow. To make something. Like sculpture or something. I think you saw it. This sculpture.
[i] Yeah. You have it on your cell phone or.
[r] Yeah. I show you. So they start to gather. It was like party at night. Too much wind. Too much snow. But we make like mountain. And start to make this sculpture. And at morning. All the camp. Even everyone who work there. They came. Wow. It’s like somebody serious here.
[i] Was it the first time that you made a sculpture in snow.
[r] For me. Yeah. It was first time. We had snow. But not like usual. Like every time. Every day. And a lot of. No. Little bit. You will just play with this snow. Not more. But first time I made this sculpture. So, they understand that something is serious. They. After couple days, they made an interview. And. Next interview with the newspapers. And after interview with Luxembourg TV. They made the interview there. And. From that point. Start to become more serious. So I start to ask to make. If it’s possible to make an exhibition. Anywhere. They was very more than good people there. Who were there. And there is. Until now we are like friends. More than friends for me. They are perfect people. And not get this like just job. You know. As a person. He is very good person. So they start to help. We start to move to Liege. Or somewhere to Brussels. Bring my material. Painting. Colors. Any material what I need. And I start to use everything what they have there. And. From that point. They okay. Now we gonna to give you another room. At some point. They told me. The whole history in this camp. It was Fedasil.
[i] Which camp?
[r] Fedasil. In Gouvy. It was Gouvy. If you know. Gouvy is maybe 10 minutes to Luxembourg. Very far. Vielsalm if you know. French part. So they give me big room. And. This room become like my apartment. Yeah. I really start to live there. They told me. It’s not happen to any person. The history of this camps. That you have his own room. And you have your own key. But they trust me. They know me. Yeah. So. Even some people who working there. They become a friend. They start to. After finish job. They just come to visit me. Or sometimes you just spend time. There. So.
[i] At the back, there is also a painting of you. [name]. Do you feel like. Telling something about.
[r] Paint.
[i] The painting that’s hanging over there.
[r] Exactly this one.
[i] Yeah.
[r] In general I paint about old mythology. Old alchemic. Magic. Symbols. This area. So I’m always. Always working on this. Always putting, using to put symbols. So. I like this. To not direct way. And. To use this. Sometimes I use even kind of knowledge about magic. And the paints. Yeah.
[i] And this painting.
[r] As we was talking. Yeah. This is the old for me. It’s very. I like this symbol of… For me it’s wisdom. And. We paint. I paint this. How I told you. Church here. I was with few artists. From Poland. Some from Belgium. Guys. And. We have that place maybe for one week. And. Some who play music. And some who paint. This was my vision there. When I get there in that place. Yeah. So always you should to follow some symbols in the paint. What I mean to something. Nothing like by accident. From the knowledge I have this kind of paints. Or this kind, this art. Let’s call it this art.
[i] Do you feel like explaining your paintings? Or do you feel like they are standing for themselves?
[r] Yeah. I don’t like the idea about to explain my paints. Or some artist who going to name his paint. Or his art. And. I can not let you. Art is like a music. I mean art. Paints and sculpture. For me. For this moment I mean. Even music is art. But here I mean. Paints and sculpture. And especially paints. Paints is like a music. So I cannot let you hear a music. And come to tell you. You should to be sad now. Sad music. Be sad. Don’t smile now. Impossible. You should to listen to this. You should to hear it. And you should to understand. And feel. Because I. For two reasons, I don’t want to explain my paints. Not because I don’t respect who ask me. Just because I. First because I work about symbols. So how it could be. I will work with symbols. And there is meaning. What I want you to follow. To get. And going to explain it to you. So it’s not work. It’s impossible. And. To. Let people not be too much lazy. This is the point always. To make connect ans contact with people. Don’t give them everything. Like if you have child. Then he has to have everything he want. And he need in one second. Sometimes you should to make him work to get it. Do something. Working mind, even. So art is the same for me. I’m not gonna to explain. You should to think. If you gonna to give me some meaning. What I didn’t mean it. But for me. You try. What you paint here. You are sad. Could be. You put a lot of red here. It’s mean you have something. I don’t know. Anger. You angry. You was angry. Could be. Maybe. Just give me, just make your mind work. Think. Yeah, could be. And what’s the point if I’m gonna to give you the meaning. And you will. Some people. Because I saw it. I saw some people. Come just you know. Hear the paint. Yeah I know the meaning of this. And the artist he gonna to explain it to him. Yeah it’s mean. Okay. He will forget this paint after few seconds. After second glass of wine. Or he even was not listen to him. If you really want to know. You should to think. So I don’t like to explain about paint. But always there is some meaning. And puzzle. You should to find this way to get all the mystery. Yeah. This is for me. I enjoy to. To do it by this way. Not only just emotional. Emotion. Some who get this way to… understand. And explain that the artist just enjoy. It’s not your mission. You haven’t any mission here. There is no message. You don’t need to use. To put some message. Or whatever you want to say to people. Yes. Okay. I respect that. Of course. I respect it and I enjoy. Like him. But I enjoy with my way too. It’s just. Different song. You know. You understand me. And for me. I enjoy with this puzzle way. Mind games. And real information. Real something. What. For me. I believe in that should people to know. Or it’s time now to know. Yeah.
[i] I’m gonna ask you a last question. Where do you see yourself in ten years?
[r] Ten years. What exactly you mean by where?
[i] I mean. How do you see your future?
[r] As artist. I’m an artist. I will be an artist until I will die. So. Like how I told you. I’m just focused to make the dream of that child. In three years old. Become true. And he want to be in all the world. Not only in one country. And I’m gonna to do it. This is what I should to do it. Even I will die before to get this. I will. Like survival. Like soldier. You should to fight too. Yeah, the same. So yeah, for me it’s… I will be an artist. Until I will die. This is me. Paint or art is me. Yeah.
[i] Thank you. Thank you for your service.
[r] Thanks a lot.
[i] I’m going to pause the camera.