SU_T_44

[i] Hi [name], how are you?
[r] Fine, fine.
[i] Then can you tell us who [name] is?
[r] Well, let me introduce myself, I’m [name], I’m 26 years old, I’m from Pakistan. I’m working as a cultural mediator. I’ve been here in Italy for about 4 years. I came directly here to Turin. I travelled a bit, but then after 3 months I found myself here in Turin.
[i] And what did you do when you were in Pakistan?
[r] I studied in Pakistan, I studied for about 12 years in Pakistan. I did the first two years of engineering and after that I had to leave my country.
[i] Can I ask you why? Why did you choose to emigrate? Why did you choose Italy in particular?
[r] Basically I had problems with my father’s family. For this reason I had to leave my country while I was studying. So I couldn’t finish my studies in Pakistan. And then to be precise I never thought of coming here to Italy. Because I’ve been to Greece, I’ve also been to France, but then as luck would have it I found myself here in Italy.
[i] Let’s say that since you arrived in Italy, on the first day, do you remember what the impact was like for a young man coming from a totally different culture, finding himself in Europe?
[r] Basically, here in Italy, when I arrived, I arrived in 2015 to apply for asylum. And I went to Trento, in the province of Trento, where I didn’t feel very comfortable either. Because I was practically sleeping outside, I didn’t have a place to sleep, nor did I have anything to eat. So it was quite a difficult time. Then after that, things didn’t go well there in Trento. I had to go to Verona, Brescia, Bergamo. Then in the end someone suggested I come here to Turin. That was my first thought when I arrived in Turin. As soon as I got off at Portonova, I went to Via Roma, and that’s when I immediately thought that this is a city I like, this is a city where I can realise my dreams, where I can realise everything I had thought before.
[i] So you ended up in the right place?
[r] Yes, it’s very right. A very right place is at the right time, so to speak.
[i] Of course. How long have you been here? About four years. Have you managed to go back to your country or not?
[r] Fortunately yes. Fortunately as soon as I got back from Pakistan, because practically as soon as I applied I went… Before going to the commission I had also told them that I had some problems, but luckily I had already solved them. So they didn’t recognise me as an international claim, but they did recognise me for humanitarian reasons, because all the series of things I did before for this reason gave me a permit that I could stay here in Italy.
[i] Of course. And let’s say, when you returned to Pakistan, after having lived here in Italy, how did you experience your first day in Pakistan? After the time away, especially for the reason that made you leave?
[r] Six years later I returned to Pakistan. The first day in Pakistan I practically stayed in my house, because I don’t know, I was really shy about leaving my house, because I didn’t have this network that I had created before, not having the friends I had before, not knowing other people, new people, the kids I saw before were minors, then they grew up, not having any friends in the neighbourhood, so I stayed at home for a few days, because I don’t know, it’s a way of saying that I didn’t feel very comfortable even in my own home, because for me it was a completely different culture.
[i] Can we say that you felt like a foreigner in a sense, in the sense that you are not at home, did you feel a bit… did you have any feeling of being different?
[r] Exactly, that’s how it was. Basically, as I said before, I felt like a foreigner in my own country, I felt like a foreigner in my own home.
[i] And how did you solve this problem? If you solved it, obviously, to say the least…
[r] Yes, but then in the end I knew that my family was there, my cousins who could help me, and then create another new network. So little by little things went well, but the reflection I had was that now more than anything I don’t really like being there in Pakistan, because the network I created here in Turin, that’s my life.
[i] So can we say that you’re fairly well integrated in Turin, that you’ve integrated well?
[r] Yes, I’d say so, because I’ve had every opportunity to build my life and my future, and I’m more or less well integrated.
[i] So [name] we can say that you have no intention of returning to your country one day, let’s say forever, so do you plan to settle here, permanently?
[r] I’ve absolutely always thought of staying here, because all the activities, all the work I’m doing, in my opinion it makes no sense to return to Pakistan after having created another new life, a new future.
[i] Of course. Let’s talk about Pakistani culture, have you managed to preserve it or do you preserve part of this culture living here in Italy with a different culture?
[r] I would say yes, some aspects of Pakistani culture are still inside me, because I haven’t managed to overcome them yet, but I have already overcome certain things, so now I am a mix of the two cultures.
[i] Of course. And let’s say your daily life, do you live it Italian or Pakistani? If we talk about your house for example, the kitchen, the music, how are you orientated? Are you more Pakistani or Italian?
[r] I’d say half and half, because I don’t know, in the morning I get up and I don’t like to have breakfast the way I did in Pakistan, so I have Italian breakfast, I go to the bar.
[i] And can you ask yourself what breakfast is like in Pakistan?
[r] Actually, Pakistani breakfast is eating a flatbread with butter, with Pakistani tea, that was it. Which I don’t like so much now, because I don’t know…
[i] You prefer cappuccino and brioche?
[r] Exactly, this is my breakfast. And then I eat out for lunch, I eat Italian food, other cuisines. I’d always like to try another new cuisine. And then for dinner I have Pakistani food.
[i] Of course. Let’s say in your circle of friends, in your social circle, does the Pakistani community exist, do you have any relations with the Pakistani community or not?
[r] I definitely have good relations with the Pakistani community, why? Because a year and a half ago I founded a Pakistani association, called the Pakistani Association of Piedmont, I am the founder and president of this association. So for this reason I also have to be more present in the Pakistani community to solve their problems or to really listen to one of them.
[i] Of course. Have you ever had any requests from Italians, who maybe out of curiosity want to try some typical Pakistani dish?
[a] Of course I have, because I know, I have lots of Italian friends, and not only Italian, also of other origins, so they often ask me when are you going to let us taste a typical Pakistani dish? And every now and then we organise dinners, even yesterday evening we organised a Pakistani dinner for some friends.
[i] Of course. Let’s talk about Italian cuisine instead, now we’re focusing on food. Have you learnt anything Italian?
[r] No, unfortunately not, because I really enjoy tasting it, but I really enjoy eating, but I did a bread-making course where I learnt how to make bread, so I know that craft very well. But I don’t know much about cooking other things.
[i] Now I’m going to ask you another question that’s a bit different, far from food. This mass immigration, this phenomenon, of these girls who come here in boats risking their lives, what do you think of this? So basically this phenomenon in my opinion was created just to make them see that these kids who come here are a danger to the other community, like where they’re going. Like if the kids arrive here in Italy and they say that these who land here are a danger to society, in reality it’s different. In reality it’s really different because they’re not a danger, they have problems where they were before. Because if I was in Pakistan, I had to leave Pakistan for a certain reason, because I had problems with my family. And I had nowhere else to go, so I didn’t even think that I just had to go to Italy. And now the same thing is happening with others, like now those who are in Libya, in Syria, many areas that I can point out. And there, people’s lives are in danger. Then the kids who come here, we just have to see from a different perspective, we just have to think from a different point of view that these kids, if we give them even a small opportunity, they manage to integrate very well. And then what do we do about this? It will lead us to a bright future, let’s say a bright future. This bright future can also be useful within Italian society.
[i] Of course. And what can we expect from the Italians? In your opinion, is there a lack of willingness to welcome these young people and help them integrate properly, which could be useful both for them and for Italy as a society and as citizens? In my opinion yes, because for better or worse here in Turin we are well received, it’s a very welcoming city, but in other cities this welcoming aspect is lacking, the integration between two cultures, two societies. Obviously in Turin there is also a lot of room for improvement, because especially where I live in that area there isn’t even one percent integration. Because I use this word, I don’t like it, but I have to use it, because that area is dead for me. And then having other areas, also friendships with other Italians, also other foreigners from other countries, I have seen other areas like the barrier zone of Milan, everyone says it’s a dangerous area, but in my opinion it is well integrated.
[i] Of course, of course. So you still need to interact with these people and not isolate them so as not to help them take the path of delinquency, because if they feel really isolated, not accepted, with no job opportunities, then that’s the only path they see.
[r] Exactly.
[i] And what can you say to these young people? What advice can you give them to help them find their way, let’s say, and integrate in a peaceful way? The only advice I give, and I’m talking generally, not just about Pakistanis because, as I said before, I’m more present in the Pakistani community and I always give this advice, is that you have to get out of your culture a little bit. If you remain within your own culture you can never integrate, and the same goes for Italian society. If you want to remain within your own culture, within your own limits, then integration is impossible. So everyone has to leave their own…
[i] Shell.
[r] Yes, exactly. Let’s say about their limitations, you have to overcome these limitations and so by overcoming the limitations then at least you see this person and this person is coming so at least I greet them, I say hello and I ask them where they come from, what they are doing, so you communicate.
[i] So the best thing is to have human relationships and have more communication.
[r] Exactly.
[i] As they say, if you don’t know the person, you don’t know the conditions that led them to do certain things, you can’t judge them.
[r] In my opinion, that’s exactly how it is.
[i] Of course. I thank you very much, thank you for answering my questions.
[r] Thank you.
[i] And I wish you the best of luck with your work.
[r] Thank you very much, thank you. Have a nice day.