SU_T_33

[i] Hi [name].
[r] Hi, hi everyone.
[i] Welcome.
[r] Thank you, thank you.
[i] And would you like to introduce yourself, tell us who you are?
[r] Yes, of course. I’m [name], I’m 19 years old, soon to be 20. I study at the University of Turin, business and education law, which is a three-year degree, under the faculty of law, and then I’ll decide whether to continue with a master’s degree. I was born and raised here in Turin, born at the Sant’Anno hospital and raised here, so all the customs, all the things I learned I learned here. I am the son of immigrants, my parents immigrated here to Italy in the 80s, around the 90s. And anyway they told me a little about their experiences, how they lived in those years and what… and what has changed, let’s say, in these twenty years.
[i] So we can say that, even though you are almost 20 years old, you have the experience of many years ago, since your parents told you about Italy in the year 80, in the year 90.
[r] Yes, as well as what my parents told me later, of course… just after they arrived here in Italy, they also told me about things that happened before they arrived here. So I have quite a broad knowledge, in fact, having grown up in two different cultures and ways of life, I can observe facts, events, things that happen today, such as, for example, a very banal example, a mass immigration that is taking place today, I can observe them from two points of view which I think is always advantageous.
[i] Seeing as you were born here, but are of Moroccan origin, your parents are Moroccan, Moroccan immigrants, to me are you Moroccan or Italian?
[r] Well, it’s always a very difficult question to answer because because of my blood and the family environment in which I grew up, I consider myself Moroccan. But at the same time, to define myself as Moroccan and nothing else would be a meaningless negation, because my friends are Italian, my teachers are Italian, I have interacted with Italian people, apart from my parents and family, and of course with people of other nationalities. But basically my way of thinking, acting and speaking is Italian, so in some respects I feel a bit Italian too. For example, when I go back to my country for the holidays, there are still many things that I have not acquired since leaving there, and I have not adopted many of the customs of my country, but I have acquired those of Italy. So you could say that I’m a sort of Italian Moroccan.
[i] So let’s say I have dual citizenship?
[r] Exactly, I also obtained Italian citizenship, by taking an oath and filling in all the necessary paperwork, so to all intents and purposes I am both Moroccan and Italian.
[i] Let’s say, since you say that your friends, let’s say your circle of friends, are mostly Italian, did you ever have any difficulty integrating? In the sense that you never felt like you were outside the circle, let’s say, of Italians? In the sense that they never made you feel like a Moroccan or, let’s say, a foreigner in this sense?
[r] No, not intentionally, in the sense that it’s natural, having grown up in a certain environment it’s natural and it’s perfectly normal and it’s stupid to deny that there are differences in our way of thinking compared to yours. A very simple example: when I go to the city centre, my friends have cocktails, I have a Coke because I don’t drink alcohol. That can be a moment when I’m left out, but it’s something they don’t do voluntarily, it’s never happened before, there have never been events in which my friends have excluded me.
[i] This is your difference, but do you feel criticised or do you always get respect? The fact that you live in Italy, you obviously respect Italian rules, but you are of Arab origin, let’s say, so it’s natural that you don’t adopt certain things, let’s say, certain things, customs that don’t belong to you here, like drinking alcohol. Have you ever felt attacked for this or maybe they say but come on no, you know among guys?
[r] Honestly no, it will be my way of doing things, it will be something else, but none of my friends or even just people I know, so those people I don’t always meet, but with whom you can have the occasional chat, no one has ever disrespected me and no one has ever attacked me, except for the odd occasion when people on public transport, perhaps drunk or whatever, start hurling racist insults, but apart from that, there’s never anyone who really knows me. Yes, there have been a few jokes about the fact that I don’t drink alcohol and that I go to the city centre with them, but it’s irony and it’s truth, so we laugh and joke about it.
[i] According to your parents’ stories, what differences have there been between Italy in the “80s and ”90s and now? In your opinion.
[r] Well, my parents told me that immigration in the 80s and 90s was very different from what it is today, if you want to say, in inverted commas, that it was a bit more controlled, but above all it came from very different countries, because immigration from the south was still strong, so people from the south who came to seek their fortune here in the north, in the factories of Milan and Turin, and there was a lot of immigration from Slavic countries due to the break-up of what is now the former Yugoslavia, so there was a lot of immigration from the Balkans, so let’s say that African immigration was still in its infancy and was not yet as strong and present as it is today. And it must also be said that… well, that Italy was a very, let’s say, industrially advanced country, so it was almost a power, we can say. So let’s say that even if there was a lot of immigration, in any case it wasn’t felt that much because the chances of finding a job were quite high and there weren’t these problems that there are today, that can weigh on the situation of immigrants such as unemployment, so if it’s difficult for an Italian to find a job, it’s equally if not more difficult for an immigrant.
[i] So, in your opinion, can offering more job opportunities facilitate the integration of these immigrants?
[r] Certainly, absolutely.
[i] In the sense that they can… there won’t be an Italian-foreigner clash because what people say if you’re a foreigner or an immigrant is that they come here to steal jobs, steal houses, certain things, so…
[r] No, absolutely not. Also because to say that I am Italian and therefore have the right to work compared to an immigrant… Italy is not yours, in the sense that the planet… that is, the planet doesn’t belong to anyone, the planet belongs to everyone. So if a person travels to another country, they clearly have to adapt to its rules and try to integrate as much as possible. Clearly offering work doesn’t just help immigration, it doesn’t just help immigrants, it also helps Italians and helps them to prosper better. Clearly if there were more job opportunities it’s natural that many immigrants wouldn’t do what they do. They wouldn’t be involved in the activities that we all see or hear about on the news, but that’s clear obviously.
[i] And to these young immigrant kids who come here, what can you tell them as a young guy?
[r] Learn the language, because it’s very important, because here the language is very… it’s considered very important. Sometimes they make fun of me and say that I speak better than some Italians, so the language here is very important to learn. And above all, maintain your integrity, in the sense that yes, respect the rules, but don’t become too different from what you were. Maintain your roots, but integrate well.
[i] Of course. [name] is a boy, a young student, very good, a dreamer. What dreams do you have for the future? Or rather, what goals do you want to achieve?
[r] But now, as I said before, I’m studying for a three-year degree at the University of Turin in the faculty of law. I’m studying business law, so my goal would be nothing really, just to have a decent job, a good job, a good family, in short, what a normal person wants. I’ll just do a three-year degree, but if I realise that there are no job opportunities for the degree I have, then I’ll go ahead and do a master’s degree too so I can look for a better job. But my dream isn’t very different from that of many other young people, including Italians, which is to have a good job, a good career and live a life… and live, at least.
[i] Of course. May I ask what languages you speak besides Italian and Arabic, of course?
[r] I speak Italian, well, Moroccan, French at school level and I have a certificate in English, I have the first. So it’s very good, in fact it’s an intermediate school certificate, level 3, which I took in a private school when I was in high school. Now I don’t attend it anymore.
[i] Do you do any sports, let’s say, do you practice any sports?
[a] I practised judo for ten years, and even came third in the national championships. I could have gone to the European championships too, but for various reasons I didn’t go. And at the moment I’m not doing any competitive sports, I go and play five-a-side football with friends, but I mostly go to the gym.
[a] Excellent. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
[r] Yes, I have a younger brother, his name is [name], he’s six years old and he goes to primary school and plays football.
[i] And what do you teach him?
[r] To be nasty when he plays football? No, obviously I teach him to respect his team mates, I teach him to respect the rules. Sport helps with this because it gives you discipline and this is very important. To young parents who perhaps have newborn immigrant children, I recommend that they enrol them in sports activities that can help them integrate their children and help them grow up together with Italian children without difficulty.
[i] Excellent. Let’s say, with your family, with your parents, relatives, how do you live the Arab culture, Moroccan culture to be precise?
[r] My parents are practising Muslims, so they follow all the rules, at least the fundamental rules prescribed by Islam. So they pray, they fast during Ramadan, if they could they would visit Mecca and everything that a good Muslim should do at least.
[i] The customs, the food, the music, has your family managed to preserve these customs, these traditions despite the distance from the country of origin?
[r] Yes, my father has been here longer than my mother, so let’s say that my father knows a little more about Italian culture, so to speak, so he knows many old Italian footballers, so if I give him some names he knows them, he knows a lot of American and Western music, anyway he knows, he knows a lot. My mother, on the other hand, has been here for less time, and is less interested in that area, so let’s say we can’t talk about it that much. But all in all, my parents, especially my mother, have never limited me in this sense, I can listen to whoever I want without problems, now I have no more limitations in this respect.
[i] So we can consider that your family is a, let’s say, modern family, open to diversity, in the sense that, even if they are, let’s say, religious and practising, they don’t deny, let’s say, the freedom to choose and to, let’s say, do what one wants to do.
[r] Yes, they are an integrated family, a family that maintains its own customs and traditions, but doesn’t impose them on other people. They respect the rules, they work and do what they have to do in their own home, like everyone else.
[i] Right, right. And could you see yourself living in Morocco one day?
[r] That’s the million dollar question. Yes, maybe one day I’d like to, but once I’ve finished working, when I just need to rest, then maybe I’ll go back down there and have a quiet life. But I think that by now it’s an acquired mentality, given that Morocco is a very different country, in some ways very different, in others very similar, I think that my future, if not here in Italy, will be here in Europe or in the West in general. By now my mentality is a western mentality.
[i] Excellent. [name], let’s say you go on holiday to Morocco, do you still have relatives down there?
[r] Yes, I still have a few relatives down in Morocco. When I go down there I mainly stay in Casablanca, where there are, well, uncles, cousins, then I go up towards Conetra, where there are other uncles, other grandparents, childhood friends. But I don’t only visit Morocco, I’ve also visited other countries like France, I’ve been to London and so I’ve seen enough, you know, besides my country of origin.
[i] Seeing as you travel quite a lot, what do you think are the differences, let’s say, between Italy and other countries? Let’s talk about Europe, also about the immigration issue. In your opinion, is Italy doing enough?
[r] It’s a difficult concept to explain, because Italy is one of the countries that has most recently opened up to immigration as a state. Then of course I’ve been to London, London is a cosmopolitan city, so there are many, many cultures, but it’s normal, anyway London is a secular city, it has seen many, many people. I think that for Italy immigration and everything that comes with it is only a matter of time, because that’s all it takes, it’s inevitable and we can’t change it.
[i] In your opinion, with an Italian point of view and with an immigrant point of view, what is lacking in Italy to have a peaceful coexistence between immigrants and Italians, between foreigners and Italians? What needs to be done to have a peaceful coexistence, without problems, without clashes? Culture. Culture… we’re losing a certain empathy, in the sense that many people… I’m Moroccan and I’ve studied the history of immigration, and I often point out that Italy is one of the countries that has lost the most people due to immigration. We remember the immigration to America in the 30s and 40s, when millions of Italians immigrated to another country. So let’s say that, strangely, Italy is the country that can best understand these people who travel, fleeing on suicidal journeys, from hunger, fleeing from war. And so we could say that this empathy is being lost, we could say that people no longer remember how Italians were in that period, when things weren’t going so well, they went abroad to try their luck. We could say that this memory is being lost, and therefore it doesn’t facilitate the integration of new peoples into the country.
[i] So the right way, or at least to get an idea, is to study history well. To study history is to try to ask yourself questions, in the sense that no human person in their right mind decides to abandon friends, relatives, family, their own land, without a valid reason. If they do it, they are driven by desperation, they are driven… above all because it’s not a sure thing, it’s not like I’ll get on a plane and arrive… and I’ll be sure to get to Italy in one piece, no. I take different routes, paying a lot, and I’m not even sure I’ll get where I’m going. So if I do it, I do it because I’m desperate and if I die I don’t care, because it’s better than living the life I was living before.
[i] Thank you [name].
[r] You’re welcome, it was a pleasure.
[i] Is there anything else you’d like to add?
[r] No, I’ve basically said everything I had to say.
[i] Thank you very much and I wish you all the best for the future.
[r] Thank you, I appreciate it.