SU_P_21

[i] Hello!
[r] Hello!
[i] Do you have an object that is dear to your heart that you would like to show me?
[r] Thank you! I have an object that is dear to my heart that I would like to show you. It is a lamp. You know, I come from Chad and the lamp is historic for me because I used it when I was a pupil, a schoolboy, to learn, to study, because I am in the capital of Chad and especially in a neighbourhood like Bololo where I lived or grew up. We had electricity in the bedroom, in the family home. So the whole family used the oil lamp to study and it really left its mark on me to this day. Imagine today, it’s been almost thirty years since there was no electricity in a number of neighbourhoods in N’Djamena. And that’s what led me to present it to you and it’s an object that is close to my heart.
[i] Thank you! Can you introduce yourself?
[r] My name is [name]. I was born on 31/12/1970 in Ndjamena, Chad. I am currently a journalist and political refugee in France
[i] So you are originally from Chad?
[i] Yes!
[i] You were born there , right?
[r] I was born in Chad, in Ndjamena to be precise, although my parents come from different parts of the country: my father from southern Chad and my mother from central Chad
[i] OK! What were the circumstances of your birth?
[r] Well, I was born in the 70s, a period of political stability because there was no war. Chadians lived in total harmony and without mutual rejection, so we loved each other and people shared everything; they had a common culture. It was a time of peace and stability, after all. There was none of the conflict that we see today.
[i] Did you live there?
[r] I did indeed live in N’Djamena, particularly in the Bololo neighbourhood, which was founded, I would say by my father, who himself was born in 1912 in the southern region of Chad in Moïssala.
[i] Do you still have family in Chad?
[a] In Chad, yes! Of course! My sisters are there. My maternal and paternal uncles stayed in Chad.
[i] Can you tell me a little bit about your family?
[r] Yes, I want to talk about it. We were a family like I told you, my dad comes from a region called Moïssala, my mum comes from Mongo in Guera. They met in N’djamena. Dad stayed until the war in 1980. He died of a simple illness. My mother also died in 2015 in N’Djamena. And so, since then, I have been part of a family of 5, including 2 boys and 3 girls. I am practically the fourth . I am the only one abroad.
[i] Are they all alive? Are they all in Chad?
[r] Both are dead and there are three of us today.
[i] OK!
[i] Two girls and a boy.
[i] Did you live in Chad for a long time before leaving?
[r] Yes! I lived in Chad for a very long time. I did my primary education at Bololo school, my secondary education at CEG No. 2 secondary school and then at the Technical Commercial College, before flying to Tunisia.
[i] And what was life like in Chad at that time?
[r] Listen! Unfortunately, as I told you earlier, in the 70s to 80s , we experienced a certain stability in Chad. From 80 to 90 , there had already been military regimes, dictatorial regimes. And so we experienced vicissitudes, very difficult situations. So there was repression against citizens and arbitrary arrests. There was no security for Chadian citizens. And so it went on until 1990 and from 1990 to the present day. I have indeed experienced extremely difficult situations compared to the 70s, even if I haven’t experienced everything. In the 70s, I was very young, but I knew Chad in the 80s and 90s, the situation hasn’t changed at all.
[i] Can you tell me when you went to France?
[r] To France!
[i] Not France yet, but tell me a bit about your background?
[i] My background is a bit unusual, you know, after secondary school at high school, I had to leave because, you know, in Chad, it’s impossible to get a scholarship when you don’t have family members who can help and support you in obtaining one. It was thanks to this that I was able to go to Tunisia, thanks to a registration, the support of someone I knew who was a student in Tunisia. This person made my task easier by finding me a pre-registration in commercial administration in Tunis. So I arrived in Tunisia in 1998, where I first studied commercial administration. It was from Tunisia that I began to write critical and political articles between 2000 and 2005, notably in the weekly Jeune Afrique. Following this, I was expelled from Tunisia at the request of my country of origin, namely Chad. I was deported to Senegal. In Senegal, I tried to train locally by doing a degree in journalism and communication. AND I campaigned in local organisations, particularly the African Meeting for the Defence of Human Rights, which is an NGO with an African dimension. This is where I acquired a lot of skills in activism, namely human rights, freedom and democracy, and effectively defending the cause of my people. At the same time, I was successively the correspondent for two Chadian news organisations. One is Alwidha Info, which was in Paris, and the other is Ialtchad Press in Canada. In the years that I was in Dakar, from 2005 to 2013, I created my blog that bears my name, the blog of [name].fr. It is a very popular blog in Chad and even in Africa. In 2013, I was once again expelled from Senegal at the request of the Chadian government. This expulsion to Guinea mobilised international and African opinion the most. So it was in 2013 that I spent two months in Conakry. Thanks to the support of organisations, particularly French ones such as Reporters Without Borders and Amnesty International, and of MPs such as Noël Mamère and ministers such as Pascal Canfin, and in Africa too, the Senegalese civil society organisations, which supported me so that France granted me, just after two months of exile in Conakry, a visa that enabled me to arrive in France in 2013. I arrived in France on 14 July 2013, where I have political refugee status.
[i] Okay! Can you tell me about life in these different countries? Where you’ve lived?
[r] Yes, in Tunisia, it was a student life . I was simply a student, so it was a bit difficult. It’s North Africa, so there are certainly language barriers. Well, cultural ones too! The Maghreb is different from sub-Saharan Africa. I certainly lived without scholarships, but thanks to my integration into Tunisian society, I didn’t have any particular difficulties. Of course, there is racism towards Africans, etc. But for me, the factors that allowed me to get through, perhaps unnoticed, I would say, was that I also spoke Tunisian Arabic, which is not far from Chadian Arabic. That’s about 1. About 2, I was still able to do internships in the Tunisian administration after 5-6 years. I also did a lot of training, but it was a difficult life when you didn’t have a scholarship. After the most difficult period, I lived in Senegal from 2005 to 2013. In Senegal, I was deprived of my Chadian passport. Chad, which was my country of origin, refused to give me a passport on the pretext that I was a dissenting, protesting voice. [Music] Life was much more difficult because I didn’t have political refugee status in Senegal either. So I had practically become a stateless person because my country of origin did not recognise me for having refused to give me my passport. Senegal, which is hosting me, also refuses to give me my status. So it’s a very difficult life. I was certainly a journalist, but you know the life of a journalist on the African continent, especially in most African countries, is that journalists are also in a precarious position. There is no adequate salary for the work that journalists do, and so it didn’t help me at all. For five or six years I couldn’t travel from Senegal, I was really, I’d say, stuck there. Well, it’s true, we lived thanks to the support of friends, Senegalese friends and also thanks to interventions, organisations of press conferences for international NGOs like the FIDH that came to Dakar. I supported them in organising press conferences by mobilising the press for meetings or seminars. That’s what enabled me to live. I also lived off the income from my own blogs. You know, when you have a blog, it generates a little income. And it is thanks to this income that I was able to pay my rent and my water and electricity bills. In any case, I went through some very difficult times during my exile in Senegal until my deportation in 2013, which may have made up for the injustice I suffered. I was the victim of injustice because your country of origin you of your passport which is a recognised right. A citizen cannot be deprived of his passport, his right, his identity card. So the fact that I was put in this situation did, nevertheless, weaken and make my living conditions precarious. But, these deportations, in a way, every cloud has a silver lining, I obtained refugee status, I was able to obtain a long-term visa for France first and I would say that it has nevertheless rationally changed my situation.
[i] What are these deportations due to?
[r] They are necessarily due to my commitments, to my political commitment, whether it be on the issue of human rights, on issues of freedom, it is the issues of social justice in my country of origin. You know, this has practically been the case from 1990 to the present day, we have emerged from the regime of Hissène Habré, which was an abominable dictatorship, rejected by all Chadians. We have fallen back into a period of rule that we had hoped would be democratic, except that the regime of Idriss Deby is practising, I would say, the same things that Hissein Habré was accused of at the time. I was one of the few Chadians abroad who called out to national and international opinion about what was wrong in my country. You know, the management of oil resources is managed in the most opaque way, with the general exclusion of certain populations. And so I thought it wasn’t right. That’s the first and second point. The elections that took place in Chad were not free and transparent elections, which were systematically won by the regime in place, notably that of the present Idriss Deby. The human rights violations and the restriction of civil and individual liberties in Chad have led me, personally, to rise up and oppose in the most peaceful way possible through writings that have been published in the international press, through my positions in international media such as RFI, TV5, France24, etc. So I have a history of activism and also a voice that denounced social injustice in my country. What we are calling for is more social justice, a balance between Chadians, for democracy to reign in a lasting way and for free and transparent elections to be held. Except that we have never been heard or listened to by the powers that be or by those who govern Chad today. So this has led us to be in permanent protest, in total opposition to the regime in place.
[i] Okay! Every time you are expelled from a country, how did you end up in another one? So is it the country that welcomes you or did you… I don’t know how you got into these countries?
[r] That’s a very good question. To answer the first question, we need to go back to the Tunisia question. In 2005, I was just walking down the street in Tunis, when I got a call from the Tunisian investigation department. They asked me to go to the police station. So I went to the police station, and they made it clear to me that I was wanted and that they wanted to question me about a number of subjects. When I arrived, they made it clear to me that it was related to my political activities. Before they took my mobile phone, I sent a text message to a French friend who was doing her thesis in Tunis. Her name was [name]. I explained to my French friend that I am currently at the Ministry of the Interior and that it is not necessarily related to my activities as a freelance journalist on the situation in my country of origin. She already knew that I was… she had read my articles in Jeune Afrique. So [name], as a French citizen, went to the Ministry of the Interior police station. She told them that she wanted to know why I had been arrested. And the Tunisians made it clear to her that they couldn’t, that they couldn’t report to her because I am Chadian and she is French. So it was not her business. She managed to alert a Tunisian lawyer who had come on the spot. The Tunisian lawyer was sent away by the Tunisian police, who told her: you have no business being here. So [name] had the courage and the reflex to alert her older sister, who is called [name] and lives in Lyon. Bénédicte contacted the French League of Human Rights. The League of Human Rights in turn contacted the Tunisian Ministry of Humanitarian Affairs to make them understand that we are aware that you have arrested a student from Chad. We are aware that he was the author of several articles in Jeune Afrique. We therefore ask Tunisia not to extradite him to Chad. It could endanger his life. His life could be in danger, you really must give him time to organise his departure from Tunisia if you don’t want to keep him on your territory. So thanks to [name]’s efforts, I was able to … Despite all that, I was able to spend three days in detention in Tunis and it was on the fourth day that I was able to obtain a visa for Senegal. And so it was thanks to the mobilisation of this French woman that I was able to obtain a visa for Senegal. I arrived in Senegal, I remember very well, on 10 May 2005. So I would say thanks to individual support, that of [name], and associative support, that of the Tunisian League of Human Rights and the League of Human Rights in general, which had mobilised from France. So I arrived in Dakar. In Dakar I was welcomed by a Chadian I knew at the time in Tunis. This Chadian was a former student who took me in for one, two, three months. May he rest in peace, he has since passed away. I was able to live there for almost a month and a half, then I applied for political asylum in Senegal, which refused me in 2005. In 2006, in 2008, Senegal successively refused me. So I was able to get through the first stage. I thought I was going to be taken back to Senegal, except that the situation had also deteriorated in Senegal. It deteriorated when the government officially requested, through its Minister of Justice, I think it was Jean-Bernard Padaré, who had come to Dakar as part of a judicial partnership with Senegal, and my problem was raised. It was raised by Chad, which asked Senegal to extradite me to N’Djamena, even though I was just writing a blog and had not taken up arms in any way. I am a peaceful man; I have fought with my ideas, and so I do not understand why the Chadian government is asking for my extradition. This is what initially outraged the Senegalese. The Senegalese could not understand how Chad could allow itself to come and look for someone who lives peacefully and calmly in Senegal. And so it sparked a reaction in Dakar, and the indignation had spread internationally with African and European support. So it was thanks to this, I would say, this combination of efforts by Senegalese, African and French activists that I was able to get out of there for a second time because this time it was the last straw. There was a lot of frustration, indignation and anger, so France was forced to grant me a visa. It was still… it was still unexpected. You know very well that I come from Chad and Chad has very close ties with France. France shares political and diplomatic relations with Idriss Deby’s regime. So the French and African supporters asked for a country to be able to receive me because I could not be expelled from two countries in ten years, Tunisia and Senegal. My supporters thought it was pointless for me to stay in Africa, particularly in Guinea where my safety is not guaranteed. So they were forced to exert pressure, particularly I think of Amnesty International, I think of Reporters Without Borders, I also think of Noël Mamère and ministers such as Pascal Canfin and Laurent Fabius who exerted pressure, I don’t feel that they took the normal approach. Democratic men who asked France to at least give me some protection that would allow me to be safe from the ten years of hell I have been through, particularly in Africa where I cannot return to my country of origin. I cannot stay in Tunisia either, nor can I go to Senegal, which is a democracy and has expelled me. I found myself in a very complicated situation but, well, when you have a strong conviction about what you are doing, I think you often come out on top. And for me, it was thanks to the support of associations, strong personalities, researchers, academics, people who are very committed to freedom of expression issues who helped me and I was able to come to France.
[i] Was the decision to come to Guinea yours or were you sent to that country?
[r] No! No! I was called up, I remember it well, it was 6 May 2013, I was called up like in Tunisia. It’s history repeating itself, I received a call from a police commissioner, from the DST, the Directorate for Territorial Surveillance in Senegal who called me Mr [name], could you come to our station? And I said why? He told me it was for a case concerning you. I said OK, what time? He said 3pm. At 3pm, he postponed the summons until the next day. It was at that moment that I was able to organise myself because I had some leeway to call my supporters in Paris and London. In London, I called a researcher called [name]. I called in Paris, I called the secretary general of Reporters Without Borders who was indeed based in Paris. I made it clear to him that I had received a suspicious call from a DST commissioner and the heads of RSF and Amnesty International advised me not to go to the summons alone. That’s how I was accompanied to the DST by an Amnesty International activist based in Dakar. And when we went there with him, it was like what happened in Tunisia. I mean, I went, we went to the commissioner’s office. And the commissioner made me understand: why did you get a human rights defender to accompany you. I said yes, it’s normal because I am committed to human rights issues. So it’s completely normal. They asked the gentleman to leave the office. In the square, they confiscated all my mobile phones. I was automatically arrested. They questioned me for five hours. The hearing was held live with the Senegalese presidency and the Ministry of the Interior. I started to crack because I couldn’t accept being subjected to all that. The hearing concerned email exchanges with journalists such as Avenir de La Tchiré, [name], who were arrested in N’Djamena. So what I was accused of was exchanging emails with opponents such as [name], [name], people who are fighting peacefully from within. So I told them that my fight is part of this dynamic. I am a journalist and Chadian journalists who cannot express themselves in the Chadian press give me information. The Chadian opposition, notably [name], [name] and many others, send me press releases, which is completely normal, it is part of my approach . I did not call on the Chadian people to rise up. They also criticised me for my interventions in the Senegalese media because I had a little to the time in 2013, there was northern Mali which was invaded by terrorist groups and I was a guest on a Senegalese radio station called Sud FM and on that radio station I was asked what I thought of the Chadian army intervening in Mali. I was very clear with the journalists from Sud FM. I made it clear to them that we cannot understand why Mali or France relies on an army like that of Idriss Deby, which represses its own people. In Chad, there is no freedom, demonstrations are banned and all opposition is confined to conference halls. I think that to liberate a people like the Malians, we need an army with continental reach. We must hope that Africa can have an army on a continental scale, that it cannot hope for an army that is as clan-based as that of Idriss Deby. So this interview was raised. They also criticised me for an article that was written by a Senegalese journalist friend of mine, who entitled an article: ‘Thirsty for freedom of expression, [name] always persecuted’. This article was widely circulated in Dakar. They told me: listen… Not only did they refuse me political refugee status, but they made it clear that I was bound by an obligation of discretion. Yet Senegal has not provided me with any document stating that I am bound by an obligation of discretion, or not to comment on the political life of my country of origin. I have never seen it. I was in Senegal from 2005 to 2013 and suddenly during the hearing things came up that didn’t seem strange to me. At a certain point, I couldn’t bear this harassment, I would say of the hearing, of police questioning. I said, look, we have to stop the interview. Do what you want. That’s when they stopped the interview. They took me home. They searched my belongings, they took my desktop computer, there’s nothing on it. They took some dictaphones and the camera. Then afterwards, I took my bag to an intelligence service. They imprisoned me for, I think, from 3 p.m. until 8.30 p.m. It was at 8.30 p.m. that they let me out of the cell where I was. Direction Dakar airport. It’s not possible! They handcuffed me and took me to Dakar airport. I was there, luckily nearby, I had another… every cloud has a silver lining, I met a police inspector in Dakar called Aimé, someone who is very nice that I met in Dakar. And when this gentleman saw me in a police station at Dakar airport, he was stunned, he asked the police officers, ‘But I know him, this guy, what has he done? We made it clear to him that they didn’t know. So at midnight they asked this gentleman, a police inspector, and told him that you are taking him to the plane. So it was thanks to him that when we were leaving, he asked for the handcuffs to be removed. So they removed the handcuffs and took me and my rucksack to the plane, a Senegalese airline: Air Senegal. I got back on the plane, the inspector got on the plane with me and so it was at that moment that he asked me what was wrong? I said I don’t know. It’s to do with my political activities. Chad requested my extradition, I think Senegal complied. And so I got on the plane, I hadn’t paid for the ticket. They paid for my ticket. They deported me straight to Guinea. It was not at all what I had requested. I made it clear to them that they really mustn’t extradite me to Chad, they have to give me time, I’m organising myself to leave Senegal. And so they didn’t give me that time. In the one day that they explain to you about Guinea, I had no family ties. So, it was on the plane that I met a Guinean mother who is about 75 years old now. She is close to the Ahmed Sékou Touré family, who was the former president of Guinea. She is a very generous mother. I made her understand that I didn’t know anyone in Guinea and that I am a journalist, that I have a blog about Chad. Senegal agreed to deport me. And so when she told me, we’ll see when we get there. The poor woman was also surprised when she saw a policeman get on the plane with someone. The passengers were stunned and also surprised because of what was happening. When I arrived at the airport in Conakry, I didn’t know anyone. It was thanks to this mother that I was able to get through the police checkpoint. So she took me to her house. I stayed with her for almost two months. It was at her house that I organised almost everything. I did my first interview at BBC Afrique, and my second interview at Jeune Afrique. And then it was the international media that relayed my story on a loop for almost two months of non-stop mobilisation. But I would say that whether at the level of Nairobi or Brussels, the United Nations or the European Union, in any case the institutional voices were outraged by what was happening because people did not understand. Chad certainly has a formidable weapon, Idriss Deby is very powerful at the sub-regional level, but how can we explain the expulsion of a blogger who has only his blog to fight with? It’s still…. There’s something wrong. It’s thanks to that that my fight has achieved something. I know that I have practically achieved my objective, which was to ensure that the Chadian question is known internationally, and to this day we continue to be opposed in the most peaceful and pacific way.
[i] And in Guinea, do you need a visa to enter or how did you get in?
[r] No, that’s the miracle! It’s thanks to this mother who had come, an imposing woman, I was telling you, she is from the Ahmed Sékou Touré family, so it’s a family in Guinea, a super hierarchical society. At the airport, she was an imposing woman. When I arrived, the policeman asked me where I was going. I said I was coming from Dakar and the mother stepped in to make me pass for her nephew. She told him that my nephew had come to spend his holidays. I am also African, I am Black, apparently I look like a Guinean, so I was able to get through. I didn’t have a visa, but then things got complicated at Conakry airport when I tried to leave. People didn’t understand how I had got into Conakry, how I was getting out with a French visa and a French laissez-passer. That’s when the French ambassador had to intervene. That’s when I thank France for having restored my dignity. Imagine, I’m African and I’m being expelled from two African countries: Tunisia and Senegal. It’s France, a European country, that is welcoming an African. This raises the question of the free movement of people in Africa. It’s that Africans should be able to settle wherever they want. Hora, today the question of settling in one country or another obeys criteria that are not objective. So I entered without a visa and it was when I was leaving Conakry airport that the police didn’t understand. I was a Chadian on the French laissez-passer. It says: Chadian nationality. The visa is a visa issued by France and I am leaving. How did I get in? That’s where France stepped in. The French embassy sent someone, a policeman who came to the airport and took care of all the formalities for departure. I would also like to thank the Guinean authorities, in particular President Alpha Condé. I would also like to thank his minister, Diaby Gassama, who is Minister for Human Rights and Freedom and who really played an important role in my departure from their country to France. Mr Diaby, who was a teacher in Toulouse, a lawyer very attached to human rights issues, had come to Paris to meet the French officials, to meet Laurent Fabius. He made them understand that Guinea had done its duty by granting me asylum or allowing me to stay on its territory for months and that they could not, for reasons of realpolitik between Guinea and Chad, refuse to let France assume its responsibilities. So I think that the role played by the Guinean authorities, notably the President of Africa Alpha Condé and Diaby Gassama, as well as the French parliamentarians, led to France being able to grant the visa and political exile from its embassy.
[i] How long did you stay in Guinea?
[r] Almost two months.
[i] Still undocumented?
[r] No, I still don’t have any papers. In fact, my question was specific because I didn’t have any papers but I was identified by the High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). I was received by the representative of the European Union and the representative of the United Nations, who in turn were received by the Minister for Human Rights, Mr Diaby Gassama. The Guinean authorities have reassured the international institutions that nothing will happen and that I will be able to have a peaceful stay and that these international personalities should not worry about my stay in Guinea. So I think I was worry-free, but I was identified by the UNHCR, so I had a receipt issued by the UNHCR, which was also taking steps to settle me in another country. So there was the possibility of settling in Canada, Sweden or another country. I would say that there was international enthusiasm for his fight and my cause. There are many countries, even Spain wanted to grant me political asylum. There was a Spanish senator who had come all the way to Madrid. A Spanish senator from the Canary Islands who travelled to Madrid, who met with the Spanish minister at the request of Spanish civil society, which was also very committed to my struggle and which also learnt about my struggle and my deportation, and which hoped that Spain would grant me political asylum. I did spend two months in Guinea, after all.
[i] Tell me a little about your arrival in France.
[r] It just so happened that when I arrived in France, it was the 14th of July. It coincided with the 14th of July celebrations here. And so, when I first arrived, I was welcomed by Chadian friends. I’m thinking of [name], I’m also thinking of [name] who came to pick me up at the airport in Paris. In the end, I spent two or three days at [name]’s place, and then I was taken in by France Terre d’Asile, and then I was taken in at the Maison des Journalistes in Paris. This is a centre that was and is the work of two French journalists who thought about the difficulties faced by new arrivals in France, especially journalists. When they arrive from a foreign country and who were… I’m also thinking of [name] who accompanied me to the Maison des journalistes since he was the one who helped me find the maison des journalistes. So we ended up there and then at the maison des journalistes, given my history, given the French laissez-passer, all that really made it easier for me to find accommodation. Thanks to this house, I was accommodated for nine months. I was supported administratively and socially. During this stay, a contract was signed. You can do six months, and beyond six months, nine months. So during this period, you intervene in secondary schools. As a journalist, you go and talk to French students about your background, what led to your exile. You make French students aware of the issues related to freedom of expression and human rights in your country and also the issues such as the fact that freedom of expression here in France is an acquired right, except that this acquired right is violated and transgressed in other countries. So it was a very enriching experience from my point of view. It allowed me personally to get to know the real France, to discover high schools, to convey my message, to also make known my country of origin where I come from, Chad in this case, and also to know my fight against what is happening. It wasn’t easy when we came to France with no family ties, except that we were welcomed in a country of human rights. We were accompanied for six or seven months by the Maison des Journalistes. After nine months I left the Maison des Journalistes to be accommodated in a shelter at the Porte des Lilas. So I struggled from 2014, 2015, 2016 and no it was at the end of 2014 that I was able to obtain, thanks to the support of people, accommodation in Saint-Ouen, in the Paris region in the 95, an accommodation where I am. And since then, during the period from 2013 to 2014 until 2015, I have continued to do odd jobs, in particular I did a six-day job with Espace, which was an association that worked in the ecological field. After that I continued with paid work in secondary schools: you are paid by the hour. It allowed me to make ends meet until I could take another course in online journalism in Paris, at IFICOM. So, it’s a life that… it’s a new stage. You are called upon to rebuild your life because you are starting from scratch. You start from scratch when exile… We are used to defining exile at the Maison des Journalistes as also a form of repression. You come here, morally you are devastated in another way. There are many journalists who have broken down, many exiles who have also broken down. So we were worn down by these vicissitudes. I was able to get through that stage, thank God. Today I live, I wouldn’t say in better conditions, but I was still able to work in a town hall, Saint-Ouen, in Saint-Ouen le Monde. At the same time, I continued to lead my life as a freelance journalist and activist, taking part in press conferences and demonstrations related to Chad, to Africa, to democracy, to the challenges that await us, that is to say the challenges of political change and alternation in our countries.
[i] Can you tell me what visa you used to enter France? Or was it with a laissez-passer and how were you able to regularise your situation in France?
[r] Yes, I am lucky enough to come with a D visa, which is one of the visas granted to certain prestigious people. You can be football stars, political celebrities, activists of international celebrities . On this occasion, I think that France has played its role as a welcoming country. It issued me with a D visa, which gave me… It was a long-stay visa and D visas are visas granted to people of a certain social standing and I simply had a blog but it was a consideration that France granted me, except that I didn’t have a Chadian passport. I couldn’t come to France and apply for a residence permit. So when I came, I was bound to apply for political asylum. So I came, I arrived. I immediately went to the prefecture, which started the procedure for my formalities. I gave an interview to OFPRA: the French Office for the Protection of Refugees and Stateless Persons. So it’s completely normal, everything went well for me, I had no administrative complications. So I was able to regularise my situation thanks to this D visa which was granted on a laissez-passer on which the French Republic etc. was written and then signed by the French ambassador in Guinea. So it’s really a sign of prestige, a sign of consideration for me, as I am a simple, modest freelance journalist. I had a blog, I wasn’t a celebrity or a politician. In my home country, I was just a student, I was only able to go abroad. I found myself stuck in permanent exile because I was exiled. I found myself as a student, later expelled and exiled to Senegal and then expelled from Senegal. Practically, today it’s been more than 18 years that I’ve been in exile. So it’s a continuous exile, you never know what tomorrow will bring. I think the objective has not been achieved, which is to see sooner or later rid… that the fight I am waging can bear fruit.
[i] How long have you been in France?
[a] I arrived, today I have been here for five years, so since I arrived in 2013, practically five, six years.
[i] And did you easily get refugee status?
[a] Yes! I would say yes because, as I told you, I have a D visa. And that made my task easier. I obtained this status in two weeks. After that, there was the 10-year residence permit and then the administrative formalities. After obtaining political refugee status, there is another battle. It’s the battle for housing, the battle for employment. Those are the real difficulties, and the difficulties of training too; that’s another stage that begins. You have the ten-year card, but it doesn’t guarantee everything. It doesn’t open all doors for you. You still have to fight on the spot, even if you don’t have a cultural and linguistic barrier with France. But the fact remains that you can get stuck on housing issues. I was stuck on housing issues for almost a year, even though I came legally in the most official way possible.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your stay in France?
[r] Currently, it’s a very good stay, certainly. My life has some difficulties despite the fact that I work in a public organisation, but the stay is punctuated by meetings of a political and associative nature, outings, conferences with pupils in French secondary schools, conferences with foundations such as the Gabriel Péri Foundation, meetings with associations such as Survie, and with Chadian colleagues too. So it’s a life punctuated by these somewhat difficult rhythms. The commute between Paris and Saint-Ouen-le-World, I’m on trains all the time. I don’t have a car. So I have to come to Paris for meetings and come back a bit late, and that’s it. It’s not easy, but you get on with it.
[i] In which area of France do you live, and especially in which arrondissement?
[r] I’m in the Île de France region, in fact I’m practically in the 95, so in Saint-Ouen le monde. It’s in the Île de France region, I’m 35 minutes from Paris. I have to take the train to get to Paris. It’s a 35-minute train journey. Unfortunately, I work part-time. So I absolutely have to spend half a day doing all my administrative formalities in Paris. And to avoid arriving late for work. I have to get to work at 2pm. I start at 2pm. So I only have Monday and Saturday when I can devote myself to visiting family and friends, and meeting up with associations or activists. That’s pretty much it, so it’s a life divided between activism and professional life. And family life too. My wife has arrived, I have a baby so really it’s a political life, a professional and associative life and a family life on top of that, it’s a bit too much all the same. You have to know how to manage all that. And when everything is centralised in Paris where my activities take place. I have to come to Paris to meet people, be interviewed by journalists, take part in debates on Chad or Africa. Everything happens in Paris, but I do regret that it’s 35 minutes away.
[i] But where were you before? Before going to…
[r] Before, I was in the 15th at Balard. I was also at the Porte de Lilas. So it’s practically Paris, everything was by metro except that now the distance between the suburbs and the frequency of the trains was causing me a bit of a problem to get down to Paris regularly.
[i] Can you tell me about these neighbourhoods? The three Balards…
[r] Yes, it’s in the 15th, the 15th arrondissement is a prestigious neighbourhood in Paris. So it’s a very good neighbourhood, a bit expensive though, because everything you can buy in Barbès is different from what you can buy in Balard. In Balard, in the 15th arrondissement, after 9pm, there are no small shops, no small restaurants where you can buy pizzas for 5 or 6 euros. It’s a very expensive neighbourhood, a bit bourgeois I would say. Not just anyone lives in Balard. It’s in the 15th arrondissement. After Balard I stayed for another nine months, but I didn’t pay rent because I…
[i] And how did you end up there?
[r] I ended up there, it was the journalists’ centre based in Balard. We used to meet there. Then I found myself in a shelter in Porte de Lilas. Porte de Lilas is not a working-class neighbourhood but it is a modest neighbourhood, certainly average but cheaper than Balard. Porte de Lilas is like Paris, I could find my way around easily. And so it’s neighbourhoods that are… I lived there as you say, the 15th and then after that an average neighbourhood like Porte de Lilas. It wasn’t so bad, so that’s life on the bus, on the metro etc…
[i] And where are you now?
[r] I’m in the 95, that’s the Paris region. To get to the Gare du Nord you have to take the train and if you miss a train, you have to wait 25 minutes. It’s a bit of a hassle in terms of transport. I wish it was quicker. Sometimes I get home at midnight. Conferences start at 7pm and finish at 10-11pm , you go home, you’re exhausted by midnight so all in all, really, it’s not great
[r] Okay! Did you go back to school in France?
[r] Yes, that’s right! I didn’t do long courses but I did a course in online journalism. It’s a course in online journalism, which is all the rage at the moment. Everything is going digital, print media is disappearing, so you have to think about how to adapt to the context. And I did, especially because when I was in Senegal, I hosted a radio programme. And at the same time I ran my blog. I had to improve my knowledge of online journalism. And so I was able to get training in online journalism at EFICOM and then it’s personal life. At the same time, I’m not in journalism, I do something else at the town hall of Saint-Ouen le monde. It’s a bit of mediation associated with administrative support, city policy in the city’s priority neighbourhoods. So I’m kind of carrying the French government’s mission.
[i] So the work you’re doing now is not related to your training?
[r] Unfortunately not, my initial training was in journalism, human rights issues, but now I find myself in a situation of what is called social mediation?
[i] What is social mediation?
[r] You have people who come from priority neighbourhoods in particular, that’s the language that’s being used now. These are people who can’t read or write and who come from Africa or Asia and who don’t have a level, who have difficulty understanding letters, understanding also… reading letters, how the French administration is dematerialising. Everything happens on the internet, they needed support. I receive them in my office, I listen to them. I make them read, I help them understand letters. I write letters for them. Sometimes I use the telephone to call the administration. For example, the CAF services, the retirement services, the employment centre. So it’s a bit of administrative support. I also sometimes help out with what we call homework support, where you assist primary school pupils, accompanying them and giving them guidance. It has nothing to do with journalism, but it’s quite an immersive experience. It has enabled me to improve my level of French, I would say, but also to understand the French administration. From every point of view, today I know how to write administrative letters to the prefecture, to the State’s partners such as the CAF, Pôle Emploi and the health insurance fund. It’s full of forms. In any case, it taught me a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot in terms of experience. I don’t regret it at all.
[i] How long have you been doing this job?
[r] I’ve been doing it from the end of 2016 to the present day. I was recruited for a year, they renewed it, they extended it for two years. So suddenly, the prospect of seeing how to stay in the same department or change . But in any case, with what is currently happening in France, it is quite possible that by then the Maison des Journalistes will be associated with the great national debate, and with seeing how journalists welcomed in France can also be useful for global reflections in France. Journalists who come from African and foreign experiences can also be involved in French media. We hope that our grievances will be heard by the Élysée, by the French authorities, so that African, North African and other journalists can fully take their place in the French media landscape.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your activities outside of work?
[r] My cultural activities …
[i] Cultural and sporting activities, theatre…
[r] That’s it! Yes, I actually prefer cultural activities, like taking part in meetings with friends from Djibouti and friends from Chad. So these activities tend to involve participating, seeing what other people are doing, discovering other nationalities, what they do at home, so attending, helping them. And other activities are also accompanying Chadian, Sudanese and African asylum seekers who have difficulty understanding their case, helping them to write their asylum application, and also making appeals to the CNDA and requests for their case to be re-examined by OFPRA. In any case, it’s a pretty busy and committed life. Outside of work, there are also Saturdays and Sundays: it’s a life without rest. Also, I would say the fact of monotony and profusion of information on Chad means that from time to time you have to go on Google, check what’s happening in Chad, follow the news and meet fellow Chadians in hostels to discuss what’s happening in my country. Sometimes going to a library, reading a few books . that’s kind of it.
[i] Do you also go to the cinema? to music concerts?
[r] Unfortunately, you know… I often go to concerts of foreign cultures, especially from Mali. I have been to concerts several times by Oumou Sangaré, the African diva who often comes to Paris. I was invited to these concerts. I even bought tickets for myself. Yes, that’s about it!
[i] But how many associations are you a member of in France today?
[r] Well! At the moment, I am a member of just one, a newly created Chadian association, to which we belong naturally because it is a thing that brings Chadians together, we are there and I am also a member of the Union de la presse francophone (French-speaking press union).
[i] Can you tell me about these two associations?
[r] The other is exclusively Chadian, its members are Chadians who are thinking about the future of the country. We organise meetings, events, etc. But the French-speaking press union is the association of exiles that brings together French-speaking journalists. It has an international dimension. It allows us to have a press card and the francophone journalism card allows us to attend conferences and general meetings. The meeting of exiles is a meeting with journalists in exile. It allows us to find ourselves in a framework of expression on the treatment of information in African countries. At the moment, I am officially a member of two associations: a Chadian association and the union of the French-speaking press, the house of journalists to which I belong.
[i] Can you tell us about your relationships with your family, your neighbours, your community?
[r] My French family, I have always lived peacefully, whether in Paris or today in Saint-Ouen le monde. I have lived from 2014 until today, I have always lived in peace. I have just moved. I have very good peaceful, truly human relationships with my French neighbours, and with my office colleagues too. Today I share a peaceful, uneventful life with my neighbours. I am not a confrontational man. My Chadian circle of friends is also a circle in which I find myself when it comes to dealing with issues of meeting to reflect on the situation in our country. So, of course, we have to reach a consensus. You each come from a culture, a country, a family unit. And when we come together on a national issue, it is absolutely essential to reach a consensus so that things go better. Without it, there will certainly be difficult times and tensions between us. It’s regrettable, but we have to think about how to remedy this if we want to become true messengers for our people.
[i] Are you very involved in the life of your city? Apart from your work?
[r] Precisely, inevitably because it is the city of Saint Ouen. My mission was city policy. I am called upon to be very involved, to support the associations. I’m part of what’s called the festival committee. It’s a committee that was set up and in which I participate as a social mediator, I do reports. I participate in neighbourhood festivals so it’s also an automatic and professional involvement at the same time, it allows me to get to know the associations that are active in the city of Saint-Ouen. And then there you go, it’s a bit like that, but anyway I’m also thinking, individually I’m thinking about how to have a media in the city of Saint-Ouen the world to help young people who are from immigrant backgrounds, who know nothing about Africa, they need to be given a place and a voice. They need to find out about African subjects by speaking in the African media. If something is happening in Mali, Malians from the suburbs should be invited to come and comment. That way they will be able to see things from a different perspective.
[i] Can you tell me about the key moments , the major events in your life in France, in Paris or in your town?
[r] In Paris, the key moments were when I was received in 2014 at the National Assembly by the deputies who were sensitive, very touched by my situation and wanted to help me. I went to complain to the National Assembly in order to find a solution concerning my housing, my accommodation. So I met with some MPs who were sympathetic and who passed on my message to the Paris city council. Those are moments that have left a mark on me, very important moments. And then in Saint Ouen le monde, I received support in the process, when I wanted to get my wife involved in the process through the mayor of the town himself because I had behaved responsibly. He himself made a commitment to contact the Minister of Foreign Affairs to ask him to ensure that France can grant a visa to my wife, who is in Chad. So these are moments that stand out, that are quite powerful for me.
[i] And at the European Parliament?
[r] At the European Parliament, it was when I was interviewed by the Development Committee. Those were historic moments. I was supported by Eva Joly, who was a member of the Europe Écologie les Verts party and who decided that I should be interviewed by the European Parliament on public development aid. Europe certainly helps African countries through donations and financial resources, but we have made them understand that you cannot continue to give public development aid to Africa without having the right to monitor it. The public aid granted to our countries must be subject to the right to monitor it both here and there. In other words, we as journalists or members of society should have the right to monitor this aid. Where does public development aid go? And at the time, I proposed to the European Union that this aid should not only be directed at the State, but also be channelled towards free media and civil society. For me, free media play an important role in the transformation of our society. If journalists are made insecure, it means they cannot carry out investigations. It is better to also help civil society. By helping civil society, we could possibly create full and complete citizenship, meaning that people will know their civil and political rights. However, this development aid ends up directly in the hands of our African leaders, except that this money is again diverted by these political decision-makers, but it does not go to the benefit of the populations. This official development assistance is the money of the French, Belgian, Italian, etc. taxpayers. So I insisted during a 45-minute hearing in parliament. I specifically asked for a reorientation of public development aid towards Africa, and this necessarily involves aid directed towards civil society and free media, because the free media must play their role. There are two types of media: the free media and the public media. The public media are the apologists for the system in place. The free media, on the other hand, are committed media. They must be supported in their fight to do a truly fantastic job and in raising public awareness. We believe that it is in the European Union’s interest to change this and it must have the right to monitor what it gives to our countries. Without this, we cannot succeed.
[i] And for other issues too or just this one…?
[r] And other issues, I’m also thinking of Zoura, another highlight, it’s when we accompanied her. She’s a young Chadian girl who was raped by the children of the regime’s dignitaries. And Zoura, it was thanks to my network of friends and people who knew me that we were able to make an impact. We were able to reach a Member of the European Parliament called Marie-Christine Vergiat, she was a member of the Front de Gauche who welcomed us, I think in Brussels and you were among us. We were in Brussels with Zoura, the young girl barely 16 years old who was abused and that is a very serious offence, it is violence against women. And we, as human rights defenders, denounce this. And thanks to this hearing, we were able to make Zoura’s voice heard, and beyond Zoura, that of all Chadian and African women. I believe that these are moments that mark me and have marked me and will mark me for as long as possible, and I will indeed talk to my children about them.
[i] Can you tell me what your perception is of France, Paris and your city?
[r] I certainly have a positive perception of France, because it is a country with a long history. France is a great country, the country of human rights, a country of peace and stability. I think another way I look at France is that it is a society that creates frustrated people, people excluded from society. In particular, when you take the bus or the train from Saint Denis, you get the impression that you are dealing with black and Arab people. I was lucky enough to live in the 15th arrondissement, just as I am lucky enough to live in the Paris suburbs. So I think that France is split in two. A France where in the 15th you rarely find people from immigrant backgrounds because it’s just us. And here, where we came from the Gare du Nord, you only see recognisable faces. I have a bit of a problem with that. France absolutely has to change. And then in the city where I am, I think it’s a city that I like because it’s the only city where you have practically people of African and North African origin and French people and there has never been a conflict in Saint-Oeun. I have informed the mayor of the city that it is a symbolic city of integration in France. And I think I am grateful for the welcome in these cities, for the civil peace we are experiencing. You know that since 2015 with the Charlie Hebdo attacks, all the suburbs have been restless. People are living in fear, but on the streets of the Parisian suburbs in Saint-Ouen, we have been able to overcome this kind of inter-community tension between people.
[i] Can you also tell me how you see social and health issues in a fairly general way in France?
[r] And there, you know, two situations arise. There is what is called the sickness insurance scheme, which is a state structure in France. After three months, if you stay in France for three months, you are entitled to what is called state medical aid, which will enable you to receive free treatment for a certain period of time. What I see is abuse by certain people acting in bad faith who want to take advantage of the system. There are people who are entitled to this. And that is regrettable. The system so far, I think, is something to be thankful for in France, unlike other countries like the United States where you pay for health and care. In France, after three months, if you stay in a perfectly legal manner, you are entitled to healthcare. Really, the social and health conditions… The social aspect too, the fact that France gives what is called APL (housing benefit), which is not easy elsewhere. In Belgium, you are left to fend for yourself. France, I think, is also a country of solidarity, a country that is characterised by human solidarity towards those it welcomes, but on condition that you come and stay on a truly regular basis, administratively speaking. Then you are entitled to this assistance. I am thinking of the SDF who do not have it, but that is not France’s fault. Even there we have what we call the 115, which can accommodate them, but the problem is that these are people who don’t want to be socially integrated. They don’t want to socialise, they want to remain on the margins, and that’s where the state’s limitations come in. The state has shown its limitations on these issues. It affects me, I am very affected when I see people on the street in winter, but there are positive things. Like, as I told you, state medical assistance, universal health coverage, administrative support. It is a country where you have to fight regularly. If you don’t fight, you can’t get by. So to guarantee these rights, you absolutely have to be on your feet from morning to night.
[i] What are your expectations when you come to France?
[r] Well, I would say that my expectations were first and foremost to prioritise the issue of security and my personal protection. I told myself that if I came to France, it was because I had been persecuted in my country of origin and abroad, and France had granted me asylum to protect me. So what I can do for France is also to contribute to its economic and social development and its international influence. What I am doing today is to bring the world to the little girl from the town in a working-class neighbourhood like Saint-Ouen. I did that in one year without basic training as a social mediator, I improved myself. Today I have adapted to French realities, I also express myself perfectly in French, I understand the workings of the French administration and I can cope with the challenges of dematerialisation. I thought it was my contribution to help French citizens. Today I have helped all French socio-professional categories. Whether they are French by birth, North African or African, I have helped everyone. It’s my most modest way of making my contribution to France and in a way I thank it for welcoming me as I am. That’s kind of what I think of it.
[i] What are your intentions? Do you intend to go back home one day? Or to stay in France or to become a French citizen?
[r] For the moment, the prospect of naturalisation is not on the agenda. I’ve been here for six years, so I still have my political refugee status, even though we would all like to work in a public service and be posted to Chad. Because we think we came here for specific reasons, notably exile. If the situation changes in my country, I would like to share everything I have gained here. To return to Chad and also to benefit my country of origin. I can’t continue to live abroad, I also have my family, I have family ties in Chad. My parents are waiting for me and I am the only man in the family. I really wanted to return to be close to my parents and help them in the best way possible, because from a distance you can only help them so much because there are many constraints. I really prefer to stay close to them and support them.
[r] Why haven’t you become naturalised? What are the reasons?
[i] You know, in principle, as a refugee, it’s not very difficult to become naturalised. After six months, only in principle, that’s what was written, except that now there’s a question that’s coming up again, I who am in permanent contact with the prefecture. The thing is that now, things have changed. Back then, if you had refugee status, you had two months to naturalise yourself, except that now everything is dematerialised. You have to make an appointment at the prefecture, and to get an appointment at the prefecture you have to get up at midnight. At midnight, there are only three people who apply online, and the prefecture’s website is open for 10 minutes. And during those 10 minutes, if you are not present, it’s over. So it’s a way of physically restricting the number of applications, and what I understand, what I have felt, is that the naturalisation application is not being done properly. What I recently made clear to a French authority is that the appointment booking system is online for everyone, whether you are an ordinary migrant or a political refugee. A political refugee is someone who is under the protection of France, and France should automatically grant them their rights. In particular, naturalisation takes two or three months, but today we are subject to the same situation as ordinary migrants. A migrant who comes, who has his card after a year, two years, is subject to the same treatment as a refugee who has to do the same thing, and so it’s really annoying. I have asked people several times to do it, but I personally have not yet done it, but I have passed on the information. I pass on the difficulties we encounter to the French authorities. I think the prefect will be aware of the difficulties we face, since we are on the ground. I am one of the people on the ground who understand France in depth, its difficulties in depth.
[i] And you, why didn’t you do it?
[r] No, I had considered doing it. For me, at a certain point, at the beginning they tell you that you have to have political refugee status first, if you have refugee status, it’s not enough. You would have to look for a job, so 2013-2014 2014-2015, I wasn’t working, it’s only now that I’ve started working. I work part-time, maybe there, given the criteria, maybe the job, the activity could be one of the criteria that can open the doors to French nationality for me. For me, an extra nationality is not a bad thing. I think that French nationality, if I can get it, all the better. If I have it, I’ll take it. If the procedures weren’t so complicated, I would have done it, except that for some time now, I can assure you that for the past year everything has been dematerialised. To make an appointment, you really have to struggle, really struggle! And then you have to set aside an hour, two hours, get up at 2 or 3 a.m. to do it on the prefecture’s website, otherwise I would have done it.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your family in France?
[r] As for my family in France, I have Ivorian friends who are French and French friends. I have Tunisian friends that I see, as well as Algerian friends, girls from Chadian families that I see here, so that’s who my family is.
[i] But your own family?
[r] My own family is now made up of my wife and my son, who is six months old today.
[i] What kind of education do you plan to give him?
[r] For the moment, I am living in France. I am going to give him a French education. He is lucky, I would say he is lucky that God made him be born in France. He certainly has a dual culture: Chadian and French. Now his own culture is French, since he lives in France. I obviously think that he will grow up in these conditions and that he will benefit from an education in France and that France will open all kinds of doors for him. But he mustn’t forget his country of origin.
[i] Have you always stayed in touch with your family back home? Your parents back home?i
[r] Yes, of course I have! You know, when you’re in France, people think that France is the land of milk and honey. So you try to do what you can to support your family. We have practically become a family support for relatives, for those who have stayed a little way out in the depths of the village. We try to call them and cheer them up, but it’s a bit like that that allows us to give them something to live for and the courage to live. We are in constant contact with the family, the relatives on my father’s side, or on my mother’s side, I am in constant contact with them.
[i] Thank you to [name], I don’t know if there is anything else you wanted to say that you wanted to come back to before we finish our interview.
[r] I think it is important that the research work on the issue of migration and on the profile of migrants can one day serve to promote our struggle, our cause and identify our journey because there are people who do not know us. Who is [name]? What difficulties did he face? I think that through what you are doing, maybe people will learn about the fight I am waging, my journey as a permanent exile, a life, an exile without limits. I hope it is encouraging, it is something to support, it may perhaps help to lift the veil on us. We have become invisible today. For whatever reason, nobody knows us, but perhaps this can help the research you are conducting. May it shed more light on national and international opinion and change perceptions of the experiences of migrants in general.
[i] Thank you and see you soon.
[r] See you soon and thank you.