SU_P_19

[i] Hello!
[r] Hello!
[i] Do you have an object that is dear to your heart that you would like to show me?
[r] An object that is dear to my heart… Yes, I have one.
[i] Which one, please?
[r] It’s this object. It’s a beaded jewel, a beaded jewel that the initiates wear on the last day when they have finished the initiation cycle. They come to the public square to dance and it is this beaded jewellery that they wear to cover their faces, along with many other pieces of jewellery that I haven’t taken. But I take this one in particular with me wherever I go.
[i] Can you tell me why it is so important to you to present it?
[r] It’s close to my heart because it’s a piece of jewellery of contrast, so to speak. It’s a piece of jewellery that has done me as much harm as good, in the sense that you wear it when you’re initiated, and since I went through the initiation against my will because I was being harassed, that’s the negative side. The positive side is that this initiation has brought something to our society and because of that today, I can speak freely about the fight against excision because I have experienced the situation myself. So it’s an object, let’s say, that feels good before having… no…
[i] It’s symbolic in a way.
[r] Exactly, it’s a symbol. It’s a symbol of my youth, a symbol of my transition from adolescence to womanhood. It’s a symbol of integration into society, so it’s something that’s important to me.
[i] OK. Can you introduce yourself?
[r] My name is [name of interviewee],
[i] What country are you originally from?
[r] I am originally from Chad. Chad is in Central Africa and specifically Mandoul, in the department of Moissala.
[i] Okay. Were you born there in Chad?
[i] I was born in Chad, let’s say there, because after that there was the division, but otherwise I was born in Moyen Chari, in Bedjindo.
[i] When?
[r] Before independence.
[i] That is to say, born before 1960?
[r] Yes, born before 1960, yes.
[i] Can you tell me about the circumstances of your birth? Did anyone tell you a little bit about it or how it happened?
[a] I haven’t really thought about the circumstances of my birth, but I know that I was born in Dédjiondo, my grandparents worked there and my father was a nurse in sector 4, so he travelled a lot. So when my mother was almost at full term, she left Fort-Archambault, now the town of Sarh, to go and give birth at her parents’ house, as many women did, many families in her time. And that’s how I was born in Bédjiondo.
[i] Do you have any brothers and sisters? How many?
[r] I’m the second in a family of eleven children, five boys and six girls.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your siblings?
[r] Given that I am the second child, there were a lot of children after me. And as is our custom, the eldest daughter is the one who looks after her brothers and sisters, so I was practically the second mum to my brothers and sisters. There was a very good understanding at home, there was respect. I looked after the children, I cooked for them. I was the one who washed them in the afternoons. I was totally involved, as if I were the mother. And that’s also how you learn to become a mother, to take care of children. It’s by dint of doing it in your family, you learn it on the job because there isn’t a school where you go to learn how to cook or look after children, look after the house. It’s done at home, with your aunts and your mothers. That’s how I looked after my brothers and sisters.
[i] And where are the parents from? Are they also from the same region of Moyen Chari?
[r] My parents both come from the department of Moïssala as well. They are both natives of Moïssala. They were both born there, my father and my mother.
[i] And is the eldest a boy or a girl?
[r] The eldest was a boy, who unfortunately passed away very early today, but he was a boy who was… It’s difficult to talk about his brother, but for the people who knew him, he was a brilliant journalist who made a name for himself despite the short life he led, and he made an impression on national and international opinion, particularly during the Cameroon-Chad match, I believe in 1978, if my memory serves me right, and that’s when he made a name for himself and everyone talked about him because of this report that really crossed borders. Unfortunately, he died very young.
[r] And disappearance, is it a sudden or a sick death or is it a disappearance… you don’t know?
[r] It was an illness, except that it happened when the country was at war, there were no hospitals. It wasn’t possible to take care of people, but we were still able to evacuate him to Cameroon, but by the time he arrived there it was too late. And that’s how he died. We later repatriated his body to the country.
[i] And the other brothers and sisters, the other nine?
[r] After me, there was a boy who joined the army and died very young. He himself did not even spend a year in the army; he died in northern Chad, and another boy who is currently in Chad. After that one, there was another boy, who is currently working in Chad. He is a businessman. After the boy, there is a girl, a girl who was for a time the director of women at the Ministry of Social Affairs and she is still there, so she is a sociologist. After the sociologist, there is another girl who lives here in France, who is an administrative agent who works in a local company in France. And the other girl is a lawyer, she has a master’s degree in law. She stayed in Gabon for a long time. And now she has returned to her country, Chad. I think she is trying to find her feet at the moment in her country. After the lawyer, there is a girl who, unfortunately, has not studied like us. So she is at home, in fact she is the one who runs the household. Even though she has not studied much, she still has a role to play because she looked after our mother until the last few days. She is the mother of the house now. Another boy, the youngest, who currently lives in Moïssala.
[i] Did you live in Chad for a long time?
[r] I left Chad at the end of secondary school, in 1975. I left there to study midwifery in Togo. After I finished my studies in ‘78, like everyone else I returned to my country to work, and it so happened that my husband came to France for training. And I took the opportunity to follow him here to enrol in medical school. Unfortunately, war broke out again, and there was no longer any possibility of a scholarship. We were left without a scholarship, so as I couldn’t continue my medical studies, my husband finished, sent his CV out everywhere and his file was selected in Niger. That’s how we left France to go and work in Niger. From Niger, two years later, he sent his CV out again everywhere, and we were recruited in Gabon. And so we came to Gabon in 1980. I spent much more time in Gabon. My husband started working there and as I wasn’t doing anything, I couldn’t sit around waiting for him to bring me money, so I did odd jobs. I sold cosmetics at the market. I even sold ice cream in schools. And after that I was recruited to work in the Gabonese civil service as a midwife. So, from 1980 to 2004, I was still in the civil service in Gabon; and at the same time as working in the civil service, I opened a birthing centre. So I was a self-employed entrepreneur from 1992 to 2010, let’s say. And in addition to my position as a midwife in the civil service and owner of my medical practice, I did medical delegation, i.e. therapeutic information for doctors. I represented the pharmaceutical products of an agency based here in France. I represented this agency in Gabon.
[i] OK. Can you tell me a little about life in Chad before you left Chad, then Gabon? How…? Your journey through these countries? What was life like?
[r] My life in Chad was a normal life. I lived in the family home as I said earlier, with my brothers and sisters. So everyone went to school and there was a good atmosphere at home and nothing in particular. Except that my father, like all fathers, because in a household, if the man is strict, the woman is not, and vice versa, my father was very strict with us. It bothered us a little because he monitored our studies very closely. We weren’t allowed to go out. I never went to the cinema or a nightclub before leaving Chad. I didn’t know any of that because my father didn’t let us go. We weren’t happy, but as we grew up and entered working life, we realised that he was right because if he hadn’t done all that, we wouldn’t have been able to continue our studies and enter working life and live normally from our work. So it was a peaceful, normal life, nothing special. My life in Gabon was an obstacle course. Because with hindsight, I ask myself how I was able to hold down three jobs while being a mother of four children. I had no time for myself, and very little time for the house, and I didn’t realise it. It is only now, with hindsight, that I realise that I wasn’t at home all the time, but that didn’t stop my children from learning normally and being able to succeed in their studies too.
[i] And how long did you stay in Niger with your husband?
[r] We didn’t stay long in Niger, just two years. I also worked in the maternity unit in Niamey during those two years. That was my first job, and I have a memory that made a big impression on me and continues to do so today, because it was in Niger that I was… that I was confronted, during my first shift, with a problem of obstructed labour in a 15-year-old girl who had been circumcised. This girl arrived, anaemic and tired, after several hours on the road. She was brought to me and I was the one on duty. When I examined her, I saw that the baby was barely alive and that’s when I realised that she hadn’t been able to give birth because her vaginal canal had been narrowed as a result of the excision. They had to perform a Caesarean on this little girl to remove the baby, which died, and that really affected me. It’s one of the reasons why I’m fighting against excision today.
[i] Can you tell me a little bit about midwifery in general in these different countries, in Gabon, in Niger?
Midwifery is a paramedical profession, and since medicine is a universal science, it’s the same everywhere. The way women are monitored is the same everywhere, except for the conditions, which can vary from one country to another because of the technical facilities, because of the financial resources, because of problems of underdevelopment. Otherwise in Niger, I was in the maternity ward for two years and I delivered the babies of many women. There were moments of sorrow and there were many moments of joy, but the sorrows outnumber the joys. As I said earlier, they were circumcised and that didn’t make things any easier. It was quite difficult and, as I was well-informed, I still managed to avoid those women having a Caesarean section too often. So, in Niger, I can only talk about the practice of childbirth. On the other hand, in Gabon, I started in the maternity ward, so also in childbirth, where it was much better than in Niamey, because there were many more of us. There were several delivery rooms, the women were not on the floor, so that was good. So everything went well, three years in the delivery room and then we rotated between the delivery room and the postnatal ward. The postnatal ward is where women who have given birth are hospitalised. Afterwards, they also have to be monitored to make sure that everything is going well, that they are not haemorrhaging after giving birth, that the baby is doing well. They are monitored for four or five days and, depending on their condition, they are allowed to go home and come back for monitoring. After the maternity ward, I was sent to a clinic at a teacher training college. It may seem a bit strange because it’s… it’s a college, they train teachers but there is an infirmary. And they chose me because I’m a midwife and this college… When we were in the maternity ward, we noticed that most of the girls who came to give birth were from this college. So a midwife had to go there to do family planning, to prevent them from getting pregnant and continuing their studies. So I did family planning at the teacher training college for girls in Libreville for 11 years. After that, I also worked in a mother and child welfare centre, so it’s an extension of what I did at the college, except that at the college I was alone and there it’s a whole family planning centre. So there were several midwives, several childcare assistants, paediatric nurses, gynaecologists and general practitioners. We monitored the pregnancy until the birth and then we referred them to the maternity ward. After giving birth, these women would return with their babies so that we could continue with the vaccinations, monitor the children’s weight gain and feeding method, and decide whether they should be breastfed or given formula. Advice was given to them and so I practised childbirth, family planning and postnatal care, care of infants and their mothers, to get back on track.
[i] What is family planning? You mentioned the PMI (French acronym for Mother and Child Protection) … what is that?
[a] The PMI is the name of the maternal and child protection programme. So it is in this centre that pregnant women are received for monitoring, mothers and children.
[i] And family planning…?
[r] Family planning is about teaching women, for example, to space out their pregnancies because, in general, women in Africa have a lot of children. Especially if it’s in a country like Niger or among Muslims, forty days after giving birth the woman can go to bed with her husband. And this woman, who has just given birth barely two months ago, becomes pregnant again and finds herself pregnant with a two-month-old baby. And this family planning therefore consisted of monitoring these women to avoid pregnancies too close together, and also monitoring the children’s diet so that the children could grow properly, because not all mothers necessarily know what to feed their children. After breastfeeding, the meal should be balanced, so we try to tell them what to prepare and when to give the child a particular food according to age. So all that is part of family planning.
[i] Wasn’t there any cultural interference with regard to this family planning that might have come from elsewhere?
[r] Cultural interference, it can’t be avoided. It was also one of the problems that these women had to be made to understand: not all cultures are necessarily good. You have to take what is good and leave aside what is not good. Like them, the forty-dayers, you absolutely have to go with their husbands, if you explain to them that if you are pregnant, the baby is two months old, you have the nice signs of pregnancy, you are going to be tired, you are going to vomit, you can’t eat well, whereas when you have a small baby, you don’t sleep well at night. And on top of that, you yourself are tired, during the day you can’t do anything for the older children. And as for your husband, you won’t even be able to cook for him. So we explain to them and they end up understanding. There is family pressure but with time, little by little, we don’t rush them, we don’t impose ourselves but we present them with the fait accompli that this is the situation in which you will find yourselves if you do this, that. It was difficult but in the end many of them understood and managed to space their births without any problems.
[i] Why did you choose medicine, and health in particular?
[r] I chose it because of my father. My father was a nurse and head of the centre in our sub-prefecture in Moïssala. Once, I was ill and so they …. They came to get me from school to take me to the hospital. And knowing that my father works there, the person who accompanied me didn’t take the normal route to say we’re going to the consultation so that we can examine you and all that. He took me directly to the pavilion where my father worked. They were on a medical visit. There were at least twelve people well dressed in white coats and when we came to tell my father that his daughter was ill. He replied: ‘Take her for a consultation, I’ll finish the visit and come over afterwards.’ Well, at first I was shocked. I thought, but I’m sick and my father wants to take care of the other sick people first and come and take care of me later? But looking back, I rather admired him because he took his work to heart. He’s not a nurse for the family, he’s a nurse for everyone. He’s a nurse to look after the whole population. So there are no priorities! And that touched me a lot and I said to myself, I want to do what my father did. And that’s how I sat three exams in the space of a year. The midwifery school exam, the customs exam and the ENA exam, which is the National Administrative School in Chad. I passed all three exams, but as I was already keen to study medicine, I didn’t hesitate, and in my family too, people said no, don’t do administration because it will be paperwork. They told me that doctors had to go to medical school to come and treat us. And that’s how I ended up at midwifery school.
[i] OK, can you tell me when you arrived in France?
[r] So, I came to France twice. The first time was in 1978, as I said earlier. And then we went to Gabon. I came back several times, but it was just for the holidays. But this time, I came to settle here in 2004.
[i] Under what circumstances?
[r] As I often came here, when I came in 2004, I didn’t plan to stay, but as I had already lost my husband in Gabon and things were getting a bit complicated with the medical practice I had, it was starting to go downhill and then I arrived here, I said, well, since I I had already worked here, why not try and see if I could set up here. And that’s how I got work, so I stayed for two years. And after those two years, I went back to Gabon to resume my activities. I even resumed my activities and my head of department here called me to say, because I resigned before leaving, saying that one of my colleagues had resigned and that I should come. I told him no, after two years, I had only just started work. I can’t anymore… I have no reason to leave again because if I leave again, it’s because I’m giving up the civil service. He convinced me by saying, but people want to leave Africa to come and work in France. They call you to come and work, and you want to stay and work in Africa? I don’t understand. And that’s how he convinced me and I resigned. I came back.
Didn’t you have much more difficulty getting a visa, papers to get there?
No, no! I didn’t have any difficulties because, since I came and went so often, I stayed for two years, so for two years I had a one-year residence permit. And when I came back, I didn’t have any difficulties getting a visa.
[i] OK, and when you arrived, which city were you in? Were you in Paris or the Ile-de-France region?
[i] When I arrived, I was in the Ile de France region, staying with a friend near Créteil. She was the first person to put me up. And it was from there that I started looking for work, I went to see the social workers who… In fact, they were the ones who helped me find work. And it was the social workers who also helped me to find a flat in the 20th arrondissement of Paris.
[i] OK, and how long have you lived there?
[r] Since 2004.
[i] OK, can you tell me about your time in France, in Paris?
[r] My stay in Paris, well! I can say that I had fewer difficulties than other people because, well… I was already there, I know more or less how it works. I know a little, I say a little, about the workings of the administration, so I didn’t have too many difficulties. But once things had settled down, that’s when the difficulties began. Because I realise that I now have to live here, cut off from my family. I was alone and my children had stayed behind. And that was the big problem, how could I get my children to come here? And it wasn’t easy.
[i] Okay. What were your expectations when you came to France?
[i] Well, my expectations when I came to France, I had already made the decision to return to live in Africa. But as I said earlier, my head of department convinced me. So, coming here, I said that I could no longer return to work in Gabon. Because it will be the third time that I leave and come back, they won’t accept it any more. So, coming back here is about integrating completely and living in French society, for as long as possible now.
[i] For the children, it was a family reunification, how did it happen?
[i] For the children, I tried to do the family reunification and it took a long time, more than three years. And according to the advice of people who have been through this situation, if they are over a certain age, it will be more difficult to get them to come. So I would get them to come for the holidays and they wouldn’t leave.
[i] Okay. Were they able to regularise their situation? All of them?
[r] Yes, yes, they managed to regularise their situation and they learned here, everything went well.
[i] Can you tell me what kind of environment you live in in Paris or the Ile-de-France region.
[a] I left the Ile de France three years ago. I went to live in the Auvergne where I bought a small country house where I currently live and I feel good there. And it’s a bit like living in Africa because the countryside is much more friendly than Paris. People get on with each other, they say hello to each other. There are little meeting points where everyone sees each other, everyone knows each other. I feel good.
[i] You always go back and forth between Paris and the countryside, right?
[r] Yes, yes, since my children are here and because of the activities I do with associations, I’m in Paris regularly.
[i] Still in the 20th arrondissement, your address?
[r] Still in the 20th.
[i] OK. So now you have your whole family with you in France?
[r] You could say that.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your family in France? How many children do you have? What do they do? How are they getting on?
[r] I have five children, four of them here. [she rubs her eyes and puts on her glasses] So, I have five children, four of them here in the Ile-de-France region. The first one studied insurance, but since the work is difficult, she retrained in hospitality. She got a vocational qualification in cooking and she works in restaurants. The boy already had a higher technical diploma in computer science in Africa, and when he arrived here, he studied…
[i] … cinema, photography, communication,
[r] he did a… , wait… [cut]
[i] Yes. You were telling me about the children…
[r] Yes, the boy, he studied audiovisual and so he is currently working. And the girl, she studied aesthetics, she is also here and she does home care. The youngest one did her baccalaureate here. She is studying at university. She is studying economics.
[i] Economics, OK. And you, have you been able to do any training here since you arrived?
[r] No! Not especially, I didn’t do any training because I said that the midwifery diploma is a universal diploma but unfortunately France does not recognise diplomas, all diplomas obtained abroad. It’s not just about medicine but in all fields, France does not recognise diplomas that have not been obtained on French territory. And when I started looking for work during my first stay, I was asked to go back to nursing school and start the first year again. And I said it wasn’t worth it because a midwife does the same work as a nurse. So if I have to do another three years of study to work as a nurse here, I’d rather go back to work in Africa. And that’s how we left, but when we came back, my diploma was converted into a paediatric nurse diploma. So instead of working as a midwife, I work as a paediatric nurse, except that in the field, it’s not the same. In the field, it’s not the same, knowing that they know that I am capable of doing this work. But since it’s how they operate, it’s the administration, they have to hire me as a paediatric nurse, but when you’re in the delivery room, there’s no difference.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your work here? What did you do as a paediatric nurse? Which clinic, which hospital did you work in?
[i] I worked at the Jean Verdier hospital in Bondy, so in the delivery room, it was a clinic, as a paediatric nurse, but as I said when we were together, we don’t know who is a paediatric nurse, who is a midwife, but we all do the same thing. I also worked in the 11th at the Bluets polyclinic, and so here in Paris, always in the delivery room as a paediatric nurse and since I was a little uncomfortable anyway, because I didn’t have a free hand, to work as a midwife, but at the same time when they couldn’t take it anymore, they asked me to take over. So I’m there as a paediatric nurse, but implicitly I’m playing the role of midwife, and it’s a situation that was a bit complicated for me. In a way, I tell myself that if there’s ever a problem, it’s going to fall back on me, because I’m not hired as a midwife. And I told myself there’s no point in coming to work in the maternity wards. I don’t have my bearings as a midwife. So this qualification, which was converted to childcare worker, also allowed me to work in nurseries. And I applied to nurseries, so I worked in a nursery in Arcueil-Cachan. After Arcueil-Cachan, I went to a crèche in Place de l’Etoile, in the 8th arrondissement of Paris, near the Champs Elysées, and from there I went to the provinces. So my diploma allowed me to work in maternity wards but also in crèches. And that was a new experience for me. It was a new experience. Childbirth and caring for babies is not the same as in nurseries because in nurseries, the children are taken from 3 months to 3 years old, but it’s not for medical care. It’s for education, so I discovered another profession through my degree, which was converted. And it went very well.
[i] What is the difference between a child care worker and a midwife? Is there a significant difference?
[r] The difference is not very great. The midwife can very well play the role of paediatric nurse because once the child is born, one also learns how to look after children. The paediatric nurse is the one who looks after the baby who is already separated from his mother until a certain age, until he goes to kindergarten. So the midwife can provide this care, but the paediatric nurse cannot perform deliveries or provide care to pregnant women. So the role of the midwife is to provide care during pregnancy, childbirth and for the infant. The paediatric nurse simply provides care for the infant.
[i] Can you tell us about your daily life in the 20th arrondissement? Is that Saint-Mandé?
[r] Yes, I’m in the 20th; the 20th borders on Saint-Mandé. It’s as if I lived in Saint-Mandé. My daily life, now I’m retired so all of a sudden it’s the good life, I’d say. I hardly do anything now except look after the grandchildren when I can, go for walks, travel.
[i] Okay. What are your hobbies? Sporting and cultural activities? Or can you still do sport when you’re retired?
[r] Yes, yes. You can still do sport when you retire. As for me, my leisure activities, we have a sewing room where all the retired women get together once a week. Each one comes with her work and we are together, we work, we have tea, we eat biscuits. That’s at the town hall and apart from that, I’m very involved in community life so I often go to meetings. I’m very active, I’m never standing still. My days are full. I go walking, I’ve signed up at a gym in Place de la Nation where I go as much as I want to do maintenance exercises. So I look after myself.
[i] And the cultural activities, theatre, cinema, library, do you go there from time to time?
[r] Theatre, from time to time, but the library hardly ever, hardly ever… but I have been to the cinema. I have also been to the theatre sometimes. But I mainly watch a lot of TV, as a good pensioner that we all are [laughs], I spend more time watching TV.
[i] OK. What are your favourite programmes? TV, general news?
[r] The news, that’s unavoidable, but for me it’s mainly the magazines, the reports, the films unless it’s a really exceptional film, otherwise I don’t watch films. But the magazines because they’re about everyday life, they’re about activities, about everyday experiences. And I’m very interested in that, I learn a lot more from watching magazines than from watching films.
[i] Are you a member of an association? of associations?
[i] Yes, I’m a member of an association, Assodecum, an association for Mbaye culture. It’s an association that deals exclusively with Mbaye society. In Chad, there are many ethnic groups and we are a small group of Mbaye here. And since we are far from home, we thought that even though we are far away, we need to get together so that we don’t get lost forever. And we formed an association to search for our origins, given that we live here, we have much more access to documentation to search for our origins and all that. And it helps a lot. We teach the children who were born here to speak Mbaye, which is our dialect. So, there is a linguist among us who is the trainer of trainers. And thanks to him, many have discovered Mbaye words that they didn’t know before coming here. They are the ones who give the Mbaye course to children who don’t understand anything at all about the Mbaye language. It’s a very interesting activity and it brings us closer to our country. And that way, we don’t lose touch with our culture.
[i] And other associations, around here?
[i] Yes, I myself am the president of the Association for the fight against excision and the protection of our cultures. The fight against excision has become a global phenomenon, everyone is talking about it, everyone is fighting it. Except that in this fight, in this practice, there is culture behind it. The cultural aspect is completely neglected. We only talk about banning excision and if we let it happen, if excision is banned, the culture will go with it. And so the association that we have set up fights against excision, but with the difference that excision should not engulf the cultural side. So, we are highlighting the fact that behind excision, there is the practice of initiation, which is a culture rooted in our countries that is tending to disappear. We should try to maintain this culture because it is very important in the society of Mbayes women, in the community of Mbayes women.
[i] Why fight against excision? Genital mutilation, why? For you?
[r] We have to fight against genital mutilation because we don’t know why it’s done. It’s a practice that brings no benefits to the lives of young girls. I have tried to understand why excision is practised in Mbaye country, for example. I went to the countryside and asked the old aunts who are still there, but no one was able to tell me why they practise excision. The answer is unanimous, everywhere they say, ‘But as our grandmothers did it, we do it too.’ They don’t know why, but it is a practice that comes from elsewhere. It is a practice that has existed since the dawn of time. I think it originated in Egypt. Then it spread through the Horn of Africa, and with immigration, it arrived here. So it has been part of our culture for a long time, we have made it our own. But in fact it is a borrowed practice and it is harmful, harmful to the lives of young girls. Little girls from the age of 6 to 15 are being taken and have their clitorises removed. There are medical consequences. If the healing process is not successful and the vaginal canal is narrowed, the girl will have difficulty giving birth if she becomes pregnant. And even before getting pregnant, there is a problem of dyspareunia. Dyspareunia is painful intercourse. This scarring, this removal also causes difficulties for the couple and can sometimes be the cause of divorce, it can also be the cause of sterility, because… there is a problem of infection. The objects used to remove the clitoris are not necessarily sterile. The same blade or the same broken bottle is used on 4, 5, 6 girls. If they are ill, they will become contaminated. There is a problem of haemorrhage and haemorrhage can be fatal, she can die immediately on the spot. Or the haemorrhage is not acute, it is chronic and she will eventually die from it. Or she develops an infection that becomes septicaemia, and this little girl can die. There have been many cases like this and when we explain to people that excision can cause infertility, they don’t understand. It’s a total paradox because in their heads, they think that this organ would have to be removed for the girl to be fertile. So they don’t understand why excision can make you infertile, but when we explain it to them, they understand. For example, when you have your period, blood flows every month, but if the canal has become very small because in some places the clitoris, the labia minora and part of the labia majora have been removed and cut away, it narrows. If all the blood doesn’t flow out, over time, it remains and rises into the uterus, which can lead to what is called endometritis. It can rise into the fallopian tubes, so the girl will never get pregnant and no one will know that excision is the cause. They’ll blame the aunt, they’ll blame the village witch. It’s because the dowry wasn’t shared out fairly, the mum’s rival bewitched her, but it’s excision that’s behind it. So excision kills, excision makes you sterile. Let’s say that excision also has a social side to it, it desocialises women because it can lead to what are also known as vesico-vaginal fistulas. This woman who sees her pee dripping on her while she is sitting with the others under the palaver tree, she gets up and her loincloth is wet, but she will be accused of being a witch. The husband will abandon her to take another wife because it’s not bearable to sleep in the same bed with an adult, and then in the morning, you’re wet. She will be marginalised by society and by her husband. So excision has many more disadvantages. There are no advantages, the only advantage is not the practice of excision but the initiation that accompanies it, which is why we have said that we must ban excision, the practical side of mutilation, and continue to perpetuate the initiation.
[i] Perpetuate how?
[r] Perpetuate, in the sense that we can initiate girls without excising them because excision is somewhere, we talk about religion, that it is a religious recommendation but it has nothing to do with religion. There is no passage in the Bible, nor in the Koran that talks about excision. And if we look closely, excision existed before the two monotheistic religions, so we can’t say that it is religion that recommends excision. It has always existed; the religions appeared afterwards. It’s just that in our countries, before the introduction of the practice of excision, there was already initiation. It was called ‘maa’g’. So the girls were initiated, they were taken outside the village. They remained cloistered for three months and during those three months, they were initiated into the things of everyday life. They were young girls, and they were taught how to look after your husband. The relationship you should have with your in-laws, how you should speak with your in-laws. Respect is really essential and if you have children, how you should educate your children, and all that. So, it is perfectly possible to separate the practice of excision from initiation. Because it was done before. Maa’g has always been practised and even today, we can continue to practise maa’g, which is initiation without excision.
[i] How is it possible to wage this fight in France?
[r] That’s why we set up this organisation because, whatever anyone says, here in France they also carry out excisions, they excise young girls. Before, they waited for them to grow up before doing it and, once they were grown up, word got out. There have already been circumcisers here in France who have been imprisoned. And now they have understood, they do it when they are still babies. Unfortunately, in nurseries, since we take in children from 3 months up to the age of three, we also see that babies are being circumcised. So this fight has a reason for being here in France because the practice also takes place here in France. To help our countries, there are many communication tools here, there are many organisations that can help finance associations so that we can help girls who are in the country to do prevention, and also treat those who have been circumcised. Recently, on the day of the fight against excision, I was in Chad, and the sad fact is that there are girls who have these big keloids that obstruct the vaginal canal, who can no longer have relations with their husbands. So it requires surgery. That’s why we’ve set up this association here and if we try to do something at our level, if we try to help those who have stayed in the country, the organisations can give us a hand so that we can treat those who are traumatised, who can no longer have sex, who can no longer have children. And above all, prevention, so that we can put a stop to this harmful practice. Prevention is very, very important.
[i] Can you tell me about the major events, the key moments in your life in Paris, in France? What really made an impression on you when you arrived?
[r] What struck me was the organisation of medical care because everyone knows that in Africa, if you go to hospital and you don’t pay, you won’t be seen. I’ll tell you an anecdote that will amuse you. I’m one of those people! I had a bout of malaria. They took me to the hospital, I said, ‘But I don’t have any money, what am I going to do?’ They said, ‘No, no, no, there’s no problem, we’ll take care of you.’ So they left me on the stretcher, they came, they took my blood sample. They were waiting for the result before giving me the treatment and I said, if they bring the result and I’m sick, they’ll hospitalise me. How am I going to pay? I ran away to avoid paying the hospital. They caught up with me to bring me back and to my great surprise, they took care of it. I didn’t pay anything, I went home. So, the salient fact is that you are ill, you arrive at the hospital, you don’t spend anything and you are treated. And I had never seen that before coming here, so that was the first event that made the biggest impression on me.
[i] Were there other key events in your life in France, in Paris or in the Ile-de-France region?
[r] There are events every day. It’s true that there are others that are much more significant but it’s… In terms of my work, when we talk to others, afterwards they will whisper behind our backs to say, ‘But how is it that she can speak French like us or even better than us, and sometimes she says words that we don’t understand?’ That, well, I can’t say it frustrated me, but it gave me the opportunity to show them that even when you’re a black man, even if I don’t like the term black man because white is a colour, black is also a colour. Even if you’re black and you’ve learned, you can do the same things as a white person. So why not do better too, we can also do better than a White person. So I tried to make my colleagues understand that I was born in a country that was colonised by France. I learned to speak French at home and at school and that’s how I got here, I didn’t learn to speak French in France. I arrived here with my African French and it did them some good too, because in fact, they don’t know what they’re talking about. For these young girls, we are all like those who arrive because there are many, it must be said, there are many who arrive here without knowing how to read or write. So when they see that you’re black, they put you in the same basket, that not all black people can speak French, not all black people can write. And in the end it brought us closer together. They were no longer ashamed or reserved about asking me certain questions and I answered them as best I could.
[i] Can you tell me what your perception of Paris and France is in general?
[r] In general, if I compare it with Africa, it is obviously a country of freedom. We are much freer here in our thoughts and actions, but without going beyond the authorised limits because we say that freedom ends where that of others begins. So it’s a country that offers lots of opportunities, when you feel like doing something, you do it. There’s no one to come and tell you off, unless you’re breaking the law of course, there’s no one to come and tell you why you’re doing it. Unlike in our countries, where we are under surveillance all day long, we have no freedom. Even if you commit an act that is not political, they will turn it into a political act. I have seen here that we are much freer in our actions, in our behaviour, in our thoughts compared to our countries.
[i] OK. In what way… In general terms, can you tell me how you see social issues in France?
[r] I can only compare social issues with social issues at home. French society is a very old civilisation, so it is well organised and well structured. The way society is structured, I think it is one of the best societies. It’s not because I live here, but it’s one of the best organisations. There are many more facilities and opportunities. If you have the will, you can succeed here in France. There are so many things to do, you just have to be creative or follow the example of others, and you’ll get by. I think that society is well structured, well organised, but in some ways there is also a bit of a paradox. There is a bit of a paradox because I don’t understand why people sleep in the street. In Africa, people say that they are poor, but I haven’t seen people sleeping in public places or in the streets in Africa. There is always an uncle, a cousin, an aunt to take the person in. Here, that’s what struck me too, that in a developed country, where there is everything, the world’s fifth largest economy, there are still people sleeping on the street. For me, it’s a paradox and I can’t understand it.
[i] OK. Do you have anything to say about healthcare? You mentioned your case very briefly, but in a fairly general way.
[i] Yes, I mentioned my case without going into detail. So I think the healthcare system is very good too. I was a little surprised to find in my letterbox the addresses of gynaecologists and radiologists for examinations. Because from the age of 50, there are these diseases that come without us realising it, such as cervical cancer, breast cancer and colon cancer. They say you have to go and get it, and you don’t pay anything. I say, what kind of country is this, where you’re at home, and they come and give you a piece of paper telling you to go and get treatment. I’ve never seen that. It’s one of the things that also struck me. So, to talk about healthcare in general, I think that the sick are very well looked after here. We can’t work miracles, but prevention is the most important part of medicine. Prevention is carried out here, especially for serious illnesses, and it’s free of charge.
[i] All right. Can you tell me about your relationships with those around you, your neighbours, your community?
[r] I have this aura, of drawing people to me when I’m somewhere. I don’t force it, but it happens all by itself. I have good relations with my compatriots. Well, on the other side in France, here where people are individualistic, so there, it’s their way of life, you can’t ask them to change. There is individualism here. It’s very difficult to make friends, but when you’re at work, it’s not the same, you make friends. But in the neighbourhoods, it’s a bit complicated because people leave very early and come home in the evening. Everyone closes their door, tries to make something to eat, to rest, to start again tomorrow, so it’s a bit complicated. But it’s only at work that you can make friends. In my community, it’s going very well. I bring a lot of people together when I’m somewhere, I look to see a person. And it’s not one person I want to see, I want to see four or five. And when these people meet up, they say to each other, oh, it’s been eight years since we last saw each other, hasn’t it? They’re in the same city, but I had to be there to bring these people together. And it’s a gift, I don’t force it. I have this aura that attracts people to me and it works very well. I’m pleased about that.
[i] Can you tell me about your status in France at the moment? Have you always kept your original nationality or are you planning to apply for French citizenship?
[r] I still have my nationality. At one point, I was tempted to do it and I got stuck and then I thought, what will being French give me that being Chadian doesn’t? Since I have a residence permit, I am in a regular situation, it is a piece of paper that allows me to leave, to return, to work. I don’t see why I would want to change nationality. I feel very good as I am.
[i] What are your intentions? Do you intend to return to Africa one day, to live there or to spend the rest of your life here in France?
[r] Unfortunately, these are questions that have no answer because no one can predict the future. You can say that you are going to live here until the end of your days, but due to a combination of circumstances, you end up spending your last stay somewhere else? As for me, for the moment, I’m here, and everything is going well. We’ll see what the future holds.
[i] Are you still in touch with your country of origin?
[r] I go there often. Once a year, or every two years. I go there regularly.
[i] For activities or to visit the family?
[r] To visit the family, to make sure I’m not forgotten, to keep in touch because, as they say, a piece of wood may remain in the river for a long time, but it will never become a crocodile. So even though I live in France, I know where I come from and I want to keep in touch with my country, with my family, with my roots. It is by attaching ourselves to our origins, to our identity, that we can assert ourselves because we know who we are. And in front of others, we assert ourselves by saying that I come from such and such places. That’s what happens where I come from. If I forget everything, I’m in France, the French are going to talk about their origins, their social life, and I, with my colour, am going to say the same thing as them? It doesn’t make sense, so I would have to show that I come from somewhere. I have an attachment, I have a culture, and that this culture can be exchanged, can be confronted in certain circumstances.
[i] How often do you return to your country? Even if it’s temporary, for a period of time.
[r] I’m already organising my return to my country. I’m organising because it’s quite complicated, it’s quite complicated to go home. When we talk about here, they are waiting for us because they think that euros grow on trees, that we can pick them and give them to everyone. So it’s a whole organisation. We don’t come empty-handed. You always have to give presents to friends and family. And even when you don’t feel like giving, you give. Because we are faced with situations where we really can’t turn our backs. If we can do something because it’s very difficult in the country at the moment. The social and financial situation is difficult, the hospitals, the schools, it’s quite complicated. So if we can help, we help.
[i] In France, who do you generally associate with, or the people you mix with, we’ve just talked a little about the community, but are there other associations from different backgrounds…?
[r] Yes, yes, I have French friends that I’ve known for over 10 years, in particular a couple who currently live in Nîmes. I see them often. Well, often is perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but I see them once a year. And when they come here, to the Paris region if I’m there, we go out together, we eat out, we go to the theatre, we go to the cinema. And I have two or three couples like that, friends with whom I have fairly close and regular relationships. So I’ve made some friends after all.
[i] OK. We’ve covered almost all the subjects, I don’t know if there’s anything we’ve left out that you plan to add, apart from everything we’ve said.
[r] Yes. We’ve covered everything. We’ve covered everything. I think that when we come here, to France, it’s for a reason. Some come to study, others come for adventure, others come because they can no longer live at home for economic, social or political reasons. So we all have a goal here. And so, if we are here, the goal for which we are here is the one we must pursue. It can happen that we change course because the situation allows it, but we keep our heads held high. We keep our heads held high, we don’t keep a low profile and above all we don’t forget where we come from.
[i] There is one last little question to finish off, are there any cultural differences when you arrive from there, here or when you leave from here, there, how come…?
[r] Yes of course, of course the difference is very obvious, because when you go back somewhere, you say hello to people, even if you don’t know them. There are also anecdotes of a man getting on the metro and saying salam maleikum and nobody responding.
[i] What does salam maleikum mean?
[r] May peace be with you, it’s a way of saying hello. You go somewhere, you see people, out of politeness, you say hello! And the gentleman said ‘hello’ on the metro and nobody replied. So he said, ‘Are these people crazy or just normal? You say hello to them and they don’t reply?’ So saying hello is difficult here, and that’s the first thing that strikes you. It’s very obvious and after that…
[i] And when you leave here, I’m talking about all those who have arrived from Africa, when they leave, when they get there, how do people see them? Do they think they’ve been acculturated? [laughs]
[r] But they are the ones who set the tone. It depends on how they behave with their own people. If you stay here for a while, you go home on your high horse saying, ‘I live in France, I have nothing to do with you anymore’, people will see you from afar too. That’s when you’ll be criticised, but you come along saying, ‘I was here, I left, I haven’t changed. I’m back to stay with you for a while’, people will welcome you warmly, everything will be fine. We’re the ones who give people that look. The judgement comes from us, comes from how we behave, I think.
[i] So, to finish, we can use the quote you gave earlier that ‘a tree trunk won’t turn into a crocodile just because it’s in the water’. So you’re not a crocodile yet?
[r] I don’t know if I will become one… [laughs], I don’t think so, but the fact remains that I am well integrated into French society. I have my bearings. Everything is going well, but I know that I am.
[i] Well, thank you for those words, and we’ll see each other again very soon.
[r] Thank you!
[i] Thank you!