SU_P_18

[i] Hello!
[r] Hello!
[i] Do you have an item you’d like to present to me?
[r] Well, I have two items that are close to my heart. First of all, there’s a hurricane lamp. It’s something that’s not at all well known in France. I think it’s found in museums, but it’s an everyday object in Chad. I remember that I had to use this object for school projects throughout my entire schooling. So in hurricane lamps like that, you have to put kerosene in them to be able to work. So it smokes a little, so it’s not necessarily very good for your health, but anyway, that’s what I used to work. There you go, and so for me, it’s an important object that enlightened me both literally and figuratively.
[i] And the second one?
[r] The second is a book… So it could be any book, but I chose this one. It’s The Dark Child by Camara Laye, it’s one of the first books I read and through the book, I also want to talk about studies. I am the son of a teacher, so I was brought up to read books, my father made me read. I remember that, already in CE1, he gave me a little children’s book, the title of which I don’t remember, and he asked me to summarise it. At that time, of course, I didn’t really know what a summary was, but we had, as often happens in Chad, a cousin who was in secondary school at the time and who briefly explained what a summary was. And well, there you go, he helped me a little to summarise this children’s book, and since then I have been very attached to reading, to African novels first of all, and to everything that can be read, in the end.
[i] All right! So it was an initiation then?
[r] It was, it was an initiation at the beginning, because, being the son of a teacher, my father, and I am the first boy, there are two boys in the family, so, there you go, he had high hopes for me. I had to succeed, I had to avoid ending up on the street, and for my father, that meant books. And then well, in the end, it became a passion, a personal passion… Later on in secondary school, we would take part in reading competitions with friends on children’s literature such as The Famous Five, The Clan of the Cave Bear, which is very well known in France, because pupils in years 6 and 7 in France read this kind of literature. So it became a kind of competition, a game. During break time, you had to talk about all the latest adventures you had read in a book or a comic strip. Like the adventures of Tintin and Snowy, etc., etc.
[i] OK! Can you introduce yourself?
[r] So, my name is [name of interviewee]. What else can I say? There you go, my name is [name of interviewee]. [laughs]
[i] So, what about your background?
[r] So, my background then…
[i] Who is [name of interviewee]?
[r] If you want to know what I did after I got my baccalaureate, I was enrolled in… in a programme that we could call non-university. And then very quickly, I started studying philosophy at a religious institute, and then at a certain point, I gave up those philosophy studies after two years to… to start a degree in modern literature at the University of Bangui. After this degree in modern literature, I enrolled for… for the master’s year, which I had to suspend because, in the meantime, I had lost my father and therefore all the support I could have had to… to prepare my master’s degree in Bangui. So I had to return to Sarh in Chad. And very quickly, I joined the teaching staff at Charles Lwanga secondary school, where I taught French at secondary level and literature to sixth formers for 4-5 years. And as I always wanted to go back to studying, I had to suspend my studies – which is fairly common in Chad – to take on responsibilities, which at the time consisted of helping my younger sisters, my younger brother and my little nephews to continue their studies. Once they were well on track with their studies, they finished secondary school, and I had the opportunity to go to France and therefore to resume my studies. There you go!
[i] Tell me, what country are you originally from?
[i] I am originally from Chad. It is in the centre of Africa.
[i] Were you born there?
[r] I was born in Chad, yes. I went to school there, I grew up there and I left for France quite late, in fact, because when I arrived in France, I was 30 years old.
[i] When was that?
[r] I arrived in France…
[i] I was talking about your birth, in what circumstances, at what time? It’s not the age that I’m asking about.
[r] I was born into a family that you could say was normal, one of ten children, I was the fourth and the first boy. It was a rather happy, peaceful family. My father was a teacher, a bit old-fashioned, as some of us might say, and therefore very strict, very rigorous, and a stickler for discipline, etc., etc. And then my mother is a seamstress… A seamstress, as they also exist over there. There was no ready-to-wear at that time. So everything was made to measure, and there were local seamstresses who made camisoles, trousers, shirts, and that was my mother’s job. It still is, by the way.
[i] Under what circumstances were you born? Do you remember a little? Have you been told a little?
[r] So, I’ve been told a little. I was born after three girls. My father was impatiently waiting for a boy. So I was told that when I was born, my father didn’t rush to the maternity ward because he was fed up with girls, until my aunt came to tell him the news: ‘Oh, you’ve just had a son’. And then my father rushed to the hospital to see me, to welcome me and all that. And so I remember that, from a very early age, my father always told me, and this is quite special, that I had a lot of responsibilities, I was the only boy among girls. In our traditions, in our culture, that’s a big responsibility. So, from a very young age, I was taught not to expect to inherit money or a house, but to expect to inherit a responsibility that I would have to fulfil, and that is what happened when my father died, when most of my sisters were still at school. And so, I had to, in fact, stop studying to start doing what is called a preceptorate in secondary schools and colleges before integrating quite quickly, moreover, I was very lucky, the Charles Lwanga secondary school, where I had a proper contract as a French teacher.
[i] Can you tell me a little about Charles Lwanga secondary school?
[r] So Charles Lwanga College was founded by the Jesuit Fathers in Sarh, in the south of Chad. It’s a college that’s based on excellence. Now, excellence shouldn’t be taken… So how… how can I explain excellence? In fact, excellence based on the child’s or young person’s ability to work. This excellence was not based on social background. So the Charles Lwanga College educated the sons of peasants as well as ministers, ambassadors and expatriates. This education is finally… it is very famous. The former pupils of the college would not say otherwise. We were taught everything. We were taught not only to study, to succeed at school. We were taught, for example, to garden. I remember that when I was at college, all the pupils had to have their own little vegetable garden, to grow plants, and so that was the aspect of contact with the land, with agriculture. Chad is still a largely rural country, and there were also courses on sport, all kinds of sport. I discovered and learnt about certain sports during my time at secondary school. Basketball, for example, because I come from Moïssala, and that’s even further south. And over there, the sports that existed were… there were football pitches, handball courts, but I only discovered basketball when I arrived in Sarh, for example. And so, in the various disciplines, whether it was sport, gardening or leisure, we also organised outings at weekends, for example to Les Roniers, where we had the opportunity to let off steam a little, to dance and to do everything together. So it’s a training programme, as the Jesuits liked to say, a training programme that aims to develop the whole person, in all their dimensions. Man is not only the intellectual aspect, but also the physical, for example through sport, and then openness to others, the fact of bringing up children from all social backgrounds and above all subjecting them to the same rules. Because the children of ministers as well as expatriates were obliged to clean the toilets, like everyone else. That’s it, and nobody shied away from it. In the end, it’s a training programme that I would describe as comprehensive, because it allows precisely… for each individual… well, it gives each individual the means to develop, not according to their origins, but according to their will and their ability to work. And so for that, recruitment was based on tests. On the tests, so if… well, the young person passed the test, well, he was recruited that way. I think the fathers did that too at the time because Charles Lwanga secondary school had this particularity of recruiting from all over Chad. When I was there, there were only 500 places for the college and the lycée, so recruitment had to be based on a number of criteria, and they were criteria of excellence.
[i] All of Chad, i.e. Christians, Muslims?
[r] Christians, Muslims, that’s it! The Jesuit fathers taught us this openness to the world through practice. I learned to experience diversity at Charles Lwanga College. So for me, diversity is not a discourse, it is not a word, it is a lived experience. Because there were Muslims and Christians of both Catholic and Protestant denominations. The Muslims had dedicated rooms, for example, to pray, and during Ramadan, for example, everything was also set up in the kitchen to allow them to break their fast, etc. The same applied to the Protestants, who also had dedicated spaces. And at school, at that time, there was what we call the religious instruction course, where… well, we were taught to understand other religions too, including the Catholic religion, which was, in fact, the religion of those Jesuit priests at that time.
[i] OK! Can you tell me how long you lived in Chad for?
[r] Well, as I said earlier, I lived in Chad until I was 30, before leaving for… several reasons. I didn’t think I had much luck in Chad. I hoped that by going back to school in France, I could be… well, open myself up to other opportunities. And there you go, when I… the opportunity arose, I seized it and went to France to resume my studies and integrate into social life in France.
[i] Okay… What was life like in Chad? Can you tell me a little bit about life there?
[r] Well, it’s a vast subject. Chad is a country… it is one of the poorest countries in the world. So… I was saying earlier that, when I was a child, I used a hurricane lamp for light, and until I left for France about ten years ago. In my family, personally, we still didn’t have electricity. So most people live below the poverty line. Despite this situation, I think I’m still part of the middle class. Because, in this poverty, in this misery… in my family, we could eat, for example, on average twice a day. Some days, it might be once, so we could also be looked after when we were sick, but we had neighbours, I knew friends who didn’t have the opportunities that I had. So, even though I was poor, there were always poorer people than me. I saw children around me dying for very little, for a few tablets of nivaquine. It’s a bargain… come on, 50, 100 CFA francs. I saw people dying for 100 CFA francs. So it’s an extremely poor country. So at the beginning of the 2000s, with the advent or exploitation of oil, there was a renewed sense of hope among the population, but very quickly it became clear that this oil windfall did not benefit the entire population. And it profoundly disrupted habits because, overnight, in some sectors, we saw very, very high salaries that were completely, how can I put it, that had no respect for… for reality. From one day to the next, a goalkeeper could earn a huge salary and of course it didn’t last long. The crisis happened, and Chad today is still a very, very poor country.
[i] And in your family, what was life like, in very general terms, your sisters, your brothers…?
[r] In my family, I think that… let’s say that everyone, apart from my older sisters who didn’t succeed in their studies… Well, apart from me, everyone was able to finish their studies and settle down. So, among my sisters, I have one who… who became a teacher and who also went back to study, to become an inspector of primary education. So… there you go, middle classes… and I have one of my sisters who is… who works as a bank agent, a bank employee, after studying in the field of human resources. So things are going well… and my other sisters are either in education or in social work. I have a sister who is a social worker. I have a sister who studied communication. She’s the youngest but is struggling to find work. And then there’s another one who’s also a teacher. So there you go, my brother is a secondary school teacher. He teaches history and geography in secondary schools in N’Djamena.
[i] Is he your little brother or…?
[a] He’s my little brother.
[i] So how many of you are there altogether?
[a] There are ten of us altogether, ten siblings. We lost a sister at the beginning of the 2000s, in 2004 to be precise. So at the moment there are two brothers and seven sisters.
[i] Right… Do you still have family in Chad?
[a] So of course I have my whole family in Chad. My plan to go to France is a rather late one. And so yes, yes, all my family, as I said, I lost my father in the meantime. And my mother, my sisters and my brothers are all in Chad.
[i] Okay, are you still in touch with everyone?
[a] I am in regular contact with my family, mostly by phone, because the Internet works very, very, very badly in Chad, and it remains a rare and expensive commodity for the majority of the population. So, you see, I communicate more by phone than by Internet.
[i] All right. So can you tell me when you arrived in France?
[a] I arrived in France in 2008, 2008… and then… in July, the summer of 2008. And I quickly enrolled at university to study.
[i] Was it the first time you had come to France?
[a] It was the first time I had come to France, yes…
[i] OK, and in what circumstances did you arrive?
[r] So I arrived, let’s say, on a scheduled flight, [laughs] N’Djamena-Paris, an Air France flight, in the summer of 2008.
[i] OK, since you arrived in France, you’ve stayed in Paris. Where exactly were you staying in Paris?
[a] I have almost always lived in Paris, but since March, a few months ago, I have been living on the outskirts of Paris, in Plaine-Saint-Denis.
[i] OK. Can you tell us how long you have been in France?
[r] When you arrive from Africa, here for the first time, even if you have read a lot, you have been around a lot of white people, especially, in my case, in the context of cooperation, I had a lot of teachers who were French, and through films, etc., etc. It’s true that contact with reality is quite different from what you can read in books and see in films, etc. So this feeling of grandeur… this crazy world teeming in the streets, in the squares, on public transport, etc. is quite impressive. But I must admit that I didn’t linger too long in wonder, because I knew what awaited me. I was there to resume my studies and try to make a place for myself, a place in French society. And so, quite quickly through my studies, I started to create networks for myself so that I could integrate into everyday life.
[r] What did you expect to find in France?
[r] Well, what I expected to find in France was the chance to live freely… to live freely, to be able to express myself without too much worry. That’s it, and then I told myself that over there, I might also have a chance to… to do what I want to do, particularly through studying. That’s it, to be able to live and work. And to live off my work.
[i] Can you tell us more about what it means to live freely?
Well, for me, living freely means not being worried about my opinions, and also in terms of equal opportunities. Equal opportunities means, for example, in terms of work, being able to access a job if I have the necessary skills and training in relation to what is expected for that job. That is, avoiding a kind of… I would say favouritism. These are my main expectations. I didn’t come here to benefit from a certain windfall. I’m here more to, I would say, take advantage of this opportunity to… to live off my efforts. That’s it, to live honestly, with dignity.
[i] And compared to your country of origin, what is the difference?
[r] Compared to my country of origin, favouritism in employment is quite widespread. It’s something that shocked me. That’s it, I won’t say any more.
[i] Can you tell me a little about the environment you live in today in France? Not about your stay, but what is your living environment, your living environment?
[r] So, I lived for a long time in the 17th arrondissement and then in the 3rd arrondissement of Paris, in a rather upmarket area, I would say. So my environment is Parisian life. It’s a bit of the sleepy, underground scene, with cafés and so on, and cultural activities. I really like visiting museums. I really like going to the theatre from time to time, and then occasionally, why not go for a drink in the cafés, with people I can meet on one occasion or another and with whom I have a friendship.
[i] Are there any differences between these neighbourhoods [that] you just mentioned?
[r] So… yes! The 17th is a fairly, fairly working class, fairly diverse, let’s say, neighbourhood in the north of Paris, but it’s a rather out-of-the-way area in the north of Paris… well, life is beautiful too. In the 3rd arrondissement, on the other hand, you are right in the centre of Paris, so close to all amenities with a very, very lively atmosphere, both during the day and at night. Châtelet is not far away, and the Georges Pompidou Centre, which also brings together many cultures. Next to it is the Centre des Arts et Métiers. And then a little further on, there is the more working-class side of Strasbourg Saint-Denis, etc., etc. The Place de la République is not far away. So it’s a living environment… it’s a neighbourhood where you can really enjoy Parisian life just a stone’s throw from home. I really liked those aspects, but I had to leave a few months ago because the rent was getting more and more expensive, and I couldn’t afford to live there all the time.
[i] Where are you currently?
[r] I’m in Plaine Saint-Denis, so it’s in an intermediate housing estate, in a neighbourhood… It’s in the new neighbourhoods of Saint-Denis, so it’s a rather interesting neighbourhood that is developing very quickly. So I’m also lucky enough to have the metro next door, so I live a stone’s throw from Paris, 800m from Paris in fact, and that finally allows me to… solve both my concern about being able to reduce my rent and continue to benefit from the conveniences of Parisian life because I am within easy reach of the metro. So, it’s a rather interesting neighbourhood where life is much simpler, I would say, compared, unfortunately, to what can be observed in other parts of Saint-Denis or the department of 93.
[i] OK. Did you study in France?
[r] Yes, I studied in France. I studied at Paris V, René Descartes, where I did a master’s in didactics. Then I went to the Sorbonne, where I did a master’s in training engineering and educational engineering, at the time in conjunction with the Paris Chamber of Commerce and Industry, which was on Rue de l’Abbé Grégoire in the 6th arrondissement, before moving to the suburbs to expand.
[r] Can you tell me about these courses, a bit didactic, engineering, what does it involve doing… what does it consist of doing?
[r] So didactics is the study of teaching. So it’s a master’s degree that… that trains you for a career in teaching. It’s linked to the department of… education sciences at Paris V. So there you go, by the way, it was the last year. It corresponded to the transition of French universities to the LMD [licence-maîtrise-doctorat] system. So I was at the crossroads of students who were still awarded a master’s degree because the universities had switched to the LMD system. At the Sorbonne, on the other hand, it’s not so much teaching as training. That’s why the master’s is called training engineering and educational engineering. So, if you like, I was trained to be, let’s say, a training specialist, a training specialist. So in what I did, I am now able to… assess, study the training needs of any organisation and be able to make appropriate training proposals, internal development proposals for the organisation that might make that request. [I ] Are you currently working in France?
[r] Yes, I am working in France.
[i] How long have you been there?
[r] Since I arrived because, even when I was at university, as I didn’t have a scholarship, I quickly had to earn some money, so like most people I had a student job. I was also very lucky in that respect because I was able to find a job as a teaching assistant in a posh high school in the 16th arrondissement of Paris. That’s the Lycée Janson de Sailly where, well, I started out… where I had my first job, I’d say… where I almost even stayed because the headmistress of the college at the time, Mrs Dujenais, wanted to suggest that I… take the exam and be able to stay at Janson de Sailly. That wasn’t really my plan. I wanted to move more towards adult education in particular. Then, quite quickly, when I finished my studies, I started working in training organisations on the Fongecif schemes. All that… For a few years, and then since then, I have been working in organisations called CRPs. So a CRP is a professional reintegration centre.
[i] Is the work you do in line with the training you’ve had?
[r] Well, here too, I think I’ve been very lucky because the work I’m doing now is in line with my training, as it’s still in the field of training. So I’m still doing educational and training work. In the meantime, as an employee, I have also been trained in the field of professional integration. So I currently wear two hats and since December, I have been standing in for a colleague who was a training manager and educational manager on sick leave, and so it is completely in the spirit of my job to stand in for these positions of responsibility.
[i] Can you tell me a bit more about your work? What does it involve? How long have you been doing this job? Do you like it?
[r] I’ve been working in this specific field for five years. Well, yes, I like it because it’s in my line of work. I give French lessons… and I give French lessons to adults who are retraining. And then I also work on the integration and employment dimension, so it consists of establishing links and partnerships with organisations and companies that can subsequently recruit the people we train. That’s it!
[i] OK. Can you tell me now about your daily life in Paris? Your daily life, that is to say your life…?
[r] So my daily life is the daily life of any Parisian, so work, work takes up most of my time, that’s logical. And then, well, after work, after work, it’s… it’s a bit of the cultural life, the recreational life, well, the family life too, because I live with a partner, I have a little girl to look after. So, logically, part of my time is devoted to work, part to family life, and then to community and cultural life.
[i] Okay, so… it’s part of your leisure activities? Can you tell me a little about your leisure activities?
[r] Oh, yes! My hobbies are… I really like walking, so I go hiking quite regularly in the woods around Paris. I like cycling too. When I can, I go to the theatre regularly… And I’m involved in the life of a few associations too, both cultural and humanitarian.
[i] OK. You often mention Fontainebleau to me, is that also one of your hobbies?
[r] Yes, of course! Fontainebleau is one of my… hobbies. I really like going for walks in the forest of Fontainebleau, but I also go there for association-related reasons. So, I go there regularly either for meetings or for… for studies on the themes of these associations.
[r] Can you tell me a little bit about these associations? How many are there, roughly? Or what kind of associations? [laughs]
[r] So, I did quite a bit of work for the Catholic Delegation for Cooperation. It’s a Catholic organisation that trains volunteers for countries in the Global South. And so it consists of addressing subjects on development and North-South relations. Then the people who go are of all ages. Initially, we recruited young people, but today, we are seeing more and more retired people who want to and need to devote their time and experience to the needs of the populations of the South, and we train them on the development issues before they leave, but the other associations are more… associations, that’s it… rather religious in nature too.
[i] And cultural in nature?
[r] So, the associations… the cultural association I’m involved in was set up by Chadians, or rather their ancestors, and its aim is to keep Chadian culture alive, especially for Chadians and their ancestors, by which I mean children born to at least one Chadian parent and… or spouses… spouses of French people, of Chadians. So we work a lot on stories, Chadian folklore, etc. And also the language, we have a project to… to teach at least one of the languages of… of Chad to these descendants of Chadians.
[i] Can you elaborate on this project? Why languages?
[r] Because we consider that language is the vehicle of culture, language is the vehicle of culture, therefore, through learning the language, the children or other ascendants who are the spouses of… Chadians here, can more easily access the way of thinking, the philosophy, the history of… Chad through this channel too. And then, it must be said that it is also a request from children or spouses because, well, sometimes Chadians, people born in Chad who arrived in France as adults from time to time, they chat in the local languages. So there you go, it’s also part of the desire of children and spouses to understand what is being said so as not to feel left out of the discussion, of the conversation.
[r] Can you tell me exactly what your role is? Exactly what your job is with regard to language learning?
[r] So, in the group, as I also studied linguistics, well I… I’m the one who leads the work a little, let’s say… training is a big word, but I… I’m the one who pays attention, who presents the more technical aspects, let’s say, the construction of the materials too, so that the facilitators we are going to train can pass on the language to the interested parties later.
[i] OK. Are there any other associations or other news you want to talk about?
[r] No, I’ve covered everything.
[i] OK. Can you tell me in general terms about your relationships with those around you, your community… the people you meet at work.
[r] I would say that I am, I live and I feel completely integrated in France. I am, how can I put it, I am a French taxpayer and I have, certainly, relationships with my community, even if I don’t like that term very much, but I also have a lot of relationships with French people from all walks of life. I really like travelling in France, going to the hinterland as we say, that’s it. In my circle of friends, there is a bit of everything, there are French people, Chadians and other Africans, etc.
[i] Can you tell me about some of the French cities you have visited?
[r] Well… I have travelled quite a bit in France, but there are some regions I go to more often than others, especially Brittany. I know Brittany quite well, especially Morbihan, which is in southern Brittany, and then, quite recently, I’ve been to Côtes d’Armor and Finistère. I know the Centre region of France very well, around Aveyron, in the Massif Central. I go there regularly because I have a lot of friends there, who I go to visit. And as I really like hiking, I started to follow the Santiago de Compostela pilgrim route in stages, and that allowed me to cross Auvergne, the Var, the Pyrenees, etc. etc. I know Picardy and the Somme a little, and I also go to those regions quite regularly. Then, I visited the other big cities for tourism: Montpellier, Avignon, Nice, Monaco. That’s it, I know Bordeaux very little, I passed through it, but the same goes for Toulouse, I passed through it quickly but I didn’t have the opportunity to visit it more than the other cities I just mentioned. For a while, I also went to Lille quite often, so I know Lille and the suburbs of Lille, Tourcoing, and all that quite well. Of course, Paris and the Paris region!
[i] So, of all these cities, which one really catches your attention? What do you like about this city? The one that caught your attention, in particular?
[r] Well… France is a country with a very wide diversity of landscapes, so it’s very different from one region to another. And in that respect, there is… how can I put it, a special charm to each region, but I came to Paris, and I live in Paris. And Paris… I fell in love with Paris and I love it very much. I love travelling around Paris. Recently, we actually went on a hike from north to south and from west to east…
[i] From Paris?
[r] From Paris. And I have lived in Paris for more than ten years, but at the bend in a street, I am always surprised by something that I feel like I have never seen before. However, Paris, deep down, is not that big after all! But even after years, Paris always has surprises in store. I like to stroll through Paris in any weather, summer, winter… Every time, it’s different. And then, living in Paris, I also often have the opportunity to be a tour guide for friends and family who are visiting. So it’s an opportunity for me to visit and revisit the most touristy places in Paris. So, I would say that I really like Paris, even if unfortunately the cost of living makes it difficult to plan for the long term.
[i] Are there any monuments or museums that you have visited in Paris? What are the special features and what are the stories behind these monuments? Any places that you have visited?
[r] So I visited all the classic monuments, the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre, most of the museums. I was very struck by the cultural effervescence when I arrived in Paris, and the Louvre is part of that. This memory of the past is one of the things that is missing and that I missed in Chad and… and that’s it. I often visit these museums and monuments with great, great emotion. Of course, I have also visited the Museum of the History of Immigration several times, which traces the relationship that people with an immigrant background have had, particularly with France, and their contributions to French social, cultural and intellectual life.
[r] Monuments such as the Eiffel Tower, you were talking to me about the Eiffel Tower, here, what caught your attention? The Eiffel Tower, the Arc de Triomphe? I don’t know if there’s an idea that you’ve taken away with you that you can share with us?
[r] The Eiffel Tower is symbolic because, as we know, it was not built to be preserved, but rather for the Universal Exhibition. And in the end, people thought it was beautiful, they kept it, and it became the symbol of Paris. So, it’s this symbolic aspect that really speaks to me, because culture is often also based on attachment to heritage, to a certain collective legend. And this collective legend, well, I find that as soon as we talk about the Eiffel Tower, it’s Paris. So I am touched by this symbolism and it is something I also dream of, something that brings together a whole city, a whole nation. I find that these are things that are unfortunately lacking in my country of origin. The Arc de Triomphe is a similar monument. This, on the other hand, is also a memorial, a tribute to all those who fought to liberate the country. It is a tribute from the nation to its sons, its valiant sons, if I may say so. And to make the link with the Arc de Triomphe, there is also the… what is it called again…
[i] The Louvre?
[r] No, no, not, not… the Pantheon! So there you have it, the Panthéon. For the more cultural aspect, it’s more of the men of culture and letters who are there. This national tribute to the men and women who have worked and participated in the development of an entire country, an entire city, these are the things that strike me, and that’s it. I dream of my Chadian Panthéon, I dream of my Eiffel Tower, my Chadian Eiffel Tower. I dream of my Chadian Arc de Triomphe. I dream of something, a symbol that will one day unite all Chadians from all walks of life. From north to south, beyond all religious and other considerations, something that brings together all the daughters and sons of Chad. That is something I dream of.
[i] OK. So, can you tell me what the major events, the key moments of your life in Paris, in France, were? What were the key, major moments?
[r] Well, I admit that I was very lucky when I arrived in France. Because, well, I started studying straight away and bang, bang, I got a job so I didn’t ask myself many questions. I thought everything was easy and at a certain point, where I was working, it was… the atmosphere had become complicated and so I had to stop. I had to stop because I couldn’t see myself continuing in that training organisation. And so I had to claim unemployment benefit for a few months, and it was a difficult period. It was a very difficult period, because it wasn’t a question of money because I was entitled to unemployment benefit, and I didn’t have any particular money problems. But let’s just say that it was the first time I found myself unemployed since I went back to school because there are studies, after work, after everything that followed, and then overnight, I found myself… well… with nothing to do on a daily basis, and it was a very difficult period. Fortunately, it only lasted a few months, 5-6 months, and I found work again. The second period, which was undoubtedly difficult too, was when I got divorced. That was a trial that was quite upsetting and that affected me for a long time.
[i] What was difficult?
[r] You ask yourself questions, you question yourself and then there’s also the reflection on these relationships based on love which, from one day to the next, become… become conflictual, with unbearable rancour, and then the upheavals in the relationships also ensue. For quite a long time, this created a great moment of loneliness in my life, not that I was alone but… inwardly I was quite alone, I asked myself a lot of questions. So those were the two big difficult moments I went through since I’ve been in France.
[i] As far as your papers for residency are concerned, is everything in order? You haven’t had any difficulties?
[r] No, no! I didn’t have any difficulties on that front either. I arrived with a student visa and then, as part of my studies, I was offered a job, which enabled me to change my status, and since then I have had a residence permit, so I have never had any problems with the legality of my stay.
[r] Okay. Can you tell us a little about your perception of Paris? In general terms, what perceptions do you have of Paris?
[r] For me, Paris is not a French city, it’s a world city. It’s a world city where there is, therefore, anonymity, with all its positive and negative aspects. Nobody looks after anyone. But at the same time, anonymity can also be experienced as a lack of recognition, that’s all. On the other hand, the anonymous side suits me fine. The fact that Paris mixes all the populations of the world, for me too it is a world city. It is a city where, beyond the difficulties linked to transport, anonymity etc., it is a city where I feel good where there are many possibilities for cultures, leisure activities, and also encounters. I am very attached to this city of Paris.
[i] In very general terms, can you tell me how you see social issues in France?
[r] So in very general terms, unfortunately in France as everywhere else, inequalities exist, inequalities exist in all social strata. It’s a reality, we’d be lying if we didn’t recognise it. There are… therefore, inequalities of opportunity, in education, in jobs, etc., etc., in the sense that… when you have a good network, it’s easier for you than for others. Nevertheless, nevertheless, I consider that the French school system, despite everything, is still capable of giving the population the opportunity to succeed. So, certainly not with the same opportunities, but for someone who takes ownership of their studies, who takes advantage of these frameworks, and who trains well, I think that this person can have the chance to succeed, to integrate into life. It may be a little more difficult at the beginning compared to people who have more opportunities from the start, but overall, I don’t think the situation is hopeless. Then again, other social issues are more political too, and I find that today in France, as in many countries unfortunately, politics has become electioneering at all levels, whether at municipal level, at regional level, or at the highest level. Politics in general is only done to get re-elected. This means that the big issues, the big social issues, are not addressed frankly by politicians for fear of not being re-elected and so the problems accumulate, and we are in the middle of the yellow vest movement. The gilets jaunes (yellow vests) are a manifestation of the tension caused by these inequalities, by all these problems that have not been resolved for years, and which are now being thrown in everyone’s face. The issue of petrol prices and the minimum wage are just the tip of the iceberg. But having said that, I don’t think the situation is hopeless. I think that the political leaders have a role to play in this, and we need to show more political courage and also rise above the daily squabbles in order to… I was talking earlier about the symbolism of the nation, of the city, that is, about ensuring that people can also unite over something greater than the petty disagreements of everyday life.
[i] And what about healthcare?
[r] Well, thank goodness I’m in good health. I’m registered with the social security system and I have decent health insurance. So I’m in good health, knock wood. But… whenever I’ve had any health problems, everything has been taken care of and I think that’s good. But I have health insurance, maybe not everyone is lucky enough to have supplementary health insurance that reimburses the care that the social security doesn’t cover. Social security is social insurance.
[i] Can we draw a parallel with your country of origin?
[r] Well, not at all!! Not at all, because the Chadian health system is in a mess, it’s chaotic. There are no, there are no measures for taking care of health, there is no social security system. No! No, there is no possible parallel to be drawn with Chad.
[i] OK. Have you been naturalised? What is your status in France today?
[r] No, I haven’t been naturalised. I am a French resident, which means I have a ten-year residence permit. I am not against naturalisation, but for the moment, I just haven’t applied.
[i] Why not?
[r] I think… a bit out of laziness. A bit out of laziness because the procedures are quite long and quite restrictive, and that’s it, I just have to take the time to do it because during the first two or three years when you have to go back to the prefecture several times a year with a file this big all the time, it was quite exhausting, and when I got my ten-year card, I thought to myself, ‘phew! I’m going to take a breather’ and then… I just haven’t taken the time to apply for naturalisation yet. But as I meet the conditions, so to speak… if the opportunity arises, I fully intend to apply to become a naturalised French citizen one day, since my life is in France. As I said, I am a French taxpayer, so as long as I take advantage of the duties of being French, I also take advantage of this… because today, I am subject to all the duties of being French, but not necessarily to their rights. For example, being able to express myself in elections and all that, just for that reason, it is something that would push me one day to apply to be naturalised as French.
[i] Is that important to you?
[r] In that sense, it’s important because I tell myself that I no longer live in my country, I live here. So not being able to participate fully in the life where I am is a bit like being a bat! I’m not there, I’m not completely here, so at a certain point, you know, I have to make a choice and for me, that choice probably involves fully participating in city life, so becoming a French citizen.
[i] Can you tell me about your intentions?
[i] My intentions… there are projects in Chad in which I was quite involved, but time and difficulties, especially with transport, have meant that I have moved away from that a little. These are projects in education, especially for girls, the schooling of girls, but anyway, I’m still keeping an eye on it. So that means that, for the time being, I have no plans in Chad. Maybe, why not in ten years’ time, consider taking up that project again. And then why not, maybe try to see if a return… to the country is possible. But for the moment, it’s not a project, it’s not a short-term project, it’s a medium-term project.
[i] What could encourage you to return to Chad or change your decision to return to Chad one day?
[r] What could speed up my return to Chad is a return to political normality, a stabilisation of political life. At the moment, this is not really the case. And there you are, I don’t want to get involved in political battles, nor suffer the effects of a policy that is, shall we say, unequal. So if these conditions… It may seem irresponsible to express myself in this way, but the fact is that not everyone can do everything. I would be very happy to participate in projects, as I said, of an educational nature, but politics is not something that tempts me, not even remotely, and I also don’t want to suffer the effects of a policy that doesn’t give everyone a chance.
[i] Aren’t you banned from Chad?
[r] No.
[i] So you go back there from time to time?
[r] I go back there from time to time, regularly.
[i] What about your family? Do you hear from them?
[i] Yes, I hear from my family. My sisters and my mother have already come here to visit me. I am in regular contact with my family.
[i] How many times a year do you go back?
[i] It varies a lot. Until 2014, I went almost every two years, but since 2014, I haven’t been back, so it’s been a while, but I plan to go back very soon.
[i] Okay, tell me, are you married?
[r] I’m divorced, and I’m currently living with a partner.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your family here?
[r] Well, I live with a girl with whom I have a six-month-old daughter, who herself takes care of… she works in organisations that take in asylum seekers.
[i] Do you often discuss these issues?
[r] Yes, so that’s the everyday thing. She works with people who are in a very precarious situation. So there you go, for her it’s not just a job, it’s almost a kind of social commitment too. So yes, it’s part of the daily discussion topics.
[i] What was the reason for your meetings? Or how did you meet…?
[r] Yes, that’s kind of what brought us together at the start.
[i] OK. Can you tell me a bit about the people you know in France?
[r] Let’s just say that I mix with a wide variety of people. Yes, I have both French and foreign friends. I get on very well with my work colleagues and I even have what I would call friendly relationships with some of them. So I am curious about people, I don’t put up barriers. I don’t live in community ghettos. And then basically, it seems that my community is even secondary because I tell myself that I didn’t leave Chad to go and meet other Chadians. If I meet any, that’s great, it makes me happy. But my objective in leaving Chad was precisely to meet other people, and if among these other people there are Chadians, why not? That’s great. So I am… I am quite open… to mankind, to the whole man as my Jesuit fathers used to say.
[i] Apart from the big French cities, have you visited any other cities in Europe? What are the special features of the big cities…?
[r] Yes, I have visited quite a few cities in Europe. I have visited Italy, I have visited the Czech Republic. Well, I passed quickly through Germany. In the islands, I went to Malta. Where else was I… in Portugal, I was in Madeira. Well, Belgium and Switzerland, very often, very regularly. I also travelled outside Europe, in particular, I had a fairly long stay in Mexico. I was also in Israel.
[i] What did you find particularly interesting there? And how do you compare these big cities to Paris?
[r] I must admit that in Italy, Rome… Rome and Paris are two cities that made an impression on me. I feel like Rome is an open-air museum, and I was absolutely fascinated by it. Of the European capitals that I have visited, Brussels, Madrid, Geneva, etc., next to Paris, for me, Rome is the most authoritative. I am under the spell of…
[i] Rome, is it also the seat of the Vatican?
[r] Rome is indeed the seat of the Vatican.
[i] Is there a link or… why Rome of all places?
[r] So Vatican City is undoubtedly one of the important monuments that are the pride of the city of Rome, but besides that, there are others, other places like the Roman Forum, or the Colosseum, etc. All these works built two thousand years ago, but which… It’s this aspect of travelling through time and still existing, which makes me think that modern man is ultimately… we’re very small, we’re dwarves, because two thousand years ago, people were already doing this. So it’s quite impressive, that’s why I… Then there’s the story of the Roman metro, which isn’t developing precisely because every time they try to advance the metro works, the archaeologists are forced to suspend because Rome is infested, so to speak, with stories. So every square centimetre in Rome seems to have a story, or even several stories to tell. That is something that is absolutely fascinating for me, and I think it may also be linked to the fact that I am a national of a country with a somewhat new history. Because either there are not many productions, or there are not enough discoveries. In my country, unfortunately, I haven’t had to deal with so much ancient history, which is still visible, and so I, the ancient, it… it’s something that… strikes me. And for that, I am also fascinated by Rome.
[i] Yet, your country is the cradle of humanity, and of time?
[r] So, it’s the cradle of humanity. And what I’m saying is not the non-existence of the ancient, it’s the showcasing… it’s the showcasing. How can we understand that in Chad today, there isn’t really a museum worthy of the name. So, beyond the non-existence of museums, it’s also a cultural policy that popularises this heritage. Chadians don’t go to museums. Museums are for foreigners, for expatriates. My concern is that this should be revived. I think that it is through discovery, particularly of Toumaï in Chad, that something of this kind should be stimulated, but it has to be said that, unfortunately, this is still not the case. So of course, the ancient can exist in Chad because, you see, seven million years ago, the first currently known man lived in Chad. So that is older than anything you can see in Rome or elsewhere, but unfortunately, this heritage is not being promoted. That is what I regret.
[i] Thank you [name of interviewee]! We have covered all the questions, I will ask the question or I will ask you again, if there is anything to add or that you have omitted, please do so.
[r] No, I have nothing to add, except to finish with these two… two objects, that’s all. [He shows the oil lamp and a book]. So, just to say that in life sometimes, well when you want to, you can, you can. It’s a reality, so when you want to, you can. It also comes down to encounters. In life, you have to know how to seize opportunities and work, have self-confidence, because you can start from a very long way back and ultimately achieve the same goals as everyone else. So, thanks to school, thanks to education, despite very difficult material living conditions, I have got where I am today. I work with people who did not go to the same schools as me, as equals. So where there’s a will, there’s a way, if you know how to seize the opportunities that life gives us. You cannot be condemned by your birth.
[i] So education must play a key role?
[r] Education plays a key role. We are not condemned by where we are born. That’s it, that’s my last word.
[i] Thank you, thank you very much [name of interviewee].
[r] Thank you.
[i] See you soon!