SU_P_15

[i] Hello.

[r] Hello.

[i] Can you tell me where you were born?

I was born in Cambodia, in Pursat, near Battambang. When I was 3 years old, I came to live in Phnom Penh. A… Where? Where? In the suburbs of Phnom Penh. Now it’s Sok Hok Street. I lived there until…. 1975, then Pol Pot kicked us out.

[i] And what year was your birth?

[r] We walked to Vietnam…

i] No, your year of birth…

[r] My birth? In 1948. November 19th.

[i] You were born there, were your parents Teochew?

[r] Yes, Teochew, my parents were Chinese. They had fled China. To go to Pursat.

[i] They were gone a long time ago?

[r] Yes, a long time ago. They had left China to live in Pursat. Then we went to Phnom Penh. We went to live in Phnom Penh.

[i] You know if the Teochew who went there… Was it your grandmother… who was… Was it your grandmother who before who…

[r] She was a Chinese woman. A Chinese woman.

[i] What year did they go to live in Cambodia?

[r][My parents] were in their forties. I had not yet been born.

[i] Your parents went to Cambodia?

[r] Yes, it was my parents who went to Cambodia. My parents had nine children. Nine children. Five girls, No, five boys and four girls. They came from China with four children, then in Cambodia they had five children.

[i] Where do you belong?

[r] Me? I was the eighth. The eighth. I was the eighth. Today, I still have a younger brother and an older brother. The others died during Pol Pot’s time. Many of them are dead.

[i] At what age did you move to Phnom Penh?

[r] I was about 3 years old. I was about 3 years old when I moved to Phnom Penh.

[i] Do you remember, before, life in Phnom Penh, how it was?

[r] Life… I don’t know, I was little. Later, I didn’t have to work. I was doing… I was doing business. I was selling jade. Pearls.

[i] Did you sell them?

[r] Yes.

[i] Over there?

[r] Yes, over there. They had to be found… At the end…. Around 1969-1970, there was more and more insecurity in Phnom Penh, people were buying antiquities to take them abroad. I sold them some. We were looking to buy original Chinese antiques, they asked me to look for some. I bought jade, pearls, diamonds to sell them. I was doing that.

[i] At what age did you start doing this?

[r] Ah….. I was already in my twenties. 21 years old. At 10-11 years old, my mother opened a grocery store. Kind of like Paris Store. I used to work there. Until I was about 16 years old. We went bankrupt. So I stopped working until I went back to work. I worked for two years, and I got married. After my marriage, I started selling these things.

[i] Did you go to school?

Yes! When I went to school, my father’s company went bankrupt. I had no choice, I had to go to work. I worked all day, in the evening I went to school for two hours.

[i] What did you study?

[r] I was studying Chinese. I didn’t learn Khmer. I learned Chinese.

[i] How many years did you go to school?

[r] Only two years. I went to school for only two years. Two years. During the day, I worked. In the evening, I went to school. I was taking night classes. After night school, I studied for six months. My father kept saying, “Girls don’t need much to study. What’s the point of studying?” My father kept on…. He didn’t want me to study. But I loved studying. I was working, then I went to school.

[i] How old were you when you got married?

[r] I studied until I was 16. I only studied for two years. I took night school for two years.

[i] Then you got married?

[r] Then I stopped.

[i] You said you got married, right?

[r] Yes, I got married. I worked, then I got married.

[i] How old were you?

[r] It seems to me that it was in… in 1966… In 1967. Uh, before… the Olympic stadium in Phnom Penh, it opened in what year? What year? What year? It seems to me that it was in….. 1967. Yes, I was married in 1967.

[i] And it was… a Teochew?

[r] Yes, a Teochew.

[i] Did you have children there?

[r] Yes…. In Cambodia… I had four children. In Cambodia, I had four children.

[i] Boys or girls?

[r] Two boys, two girls. In 1975… In 1975,[my ex-husband] moved to Hong Kong. And we couldn’t…. In Cambodia, they started to expel us… We couldn’t see each other again. When Pol Pot was overthrown, I brought these four children. With my older brother’s child, that made five. With my mother, and my grandmother. The whole family, that was about 20 people. We took the road together.

[i] When you walked…

[r] We no longer had a house. We slept on the street. The Khmer Rouge said, “Leave, you can come back in three days. There’s no need to bring your things.” Then I met a person who lived in the same building as me, he was a high-ranking member. He knew that the Khmer Rouge who came in carried a white flag, and that they were not good people. That they were going to expel us, otherwise they were going to kill us. Pol Pot’s soldiers. And he told me, “Bring your things, if you have any medicine, take it. They’re lying. They tell you you’re leaving for three days, but they won’t let you in. They won’t let you in.” And it was true, we left, we couldn’t get in or stop. We walked until we were tired. We were stopping. The children cried and drank water. We had no right. We had to leave quickly.

[i] How long did you walk?

[r] We were just walking, for two months, to Vietnam. We couldn’t bring grains of rice with us. No. On the road, we asked… In the countryside…. In the countryside, people were asked for rice, for children and the elderly. We ate sweet potato leaves. My old mother wanted to eat sweet potato leaves. But young Khmer Rouge, Khmer Rouge soldiers, 13-14 years old, wanted to beat us with their weapons. They didn’t want us to take it. At that time, I wasn’t afraid to die. I cleared the gun and said, “How can you beat an old person? We can’t do that, all right. Why beat up an elderly person? Isn’t that right?” Every week, they gave us grains of rice. One person was entitled to a drink. There were about ten of us, how could that be enough for us? We couldn’t buy any. We had money, but we didn’t spend it. We brought a lot of money. A few million. We couldn’t spend it. Then, with my mother, with the extended family, with my brothers, we lined up to get grains of rice. There were a lot of Chinese people, who went to get grains of rice. The Khmer Rouge didn’t want to. Two and three Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot’s soldiers, children, only 12-13 years old. They used to take sticks to beat the elderly. They said, “You’re Chinese, you have no right.” My mother kept pulling my clothes, she was afraid they would kill us. Over there, if we weren’t docile, they’d kill us. I told those kids to leave. I was very upset. We didn’t have any food. There were many children and elderly people. We didn’t have any food. I said, “These grains of rice are China, they’re grains of white rice from China.” I said it in Khmer, I said[in Khmer]… “It’s not your rice. It was China that gave them to us Chinese. Why don’t you give us some? And you beat us.” They wanted to beat my mother. I had to defend her. These kids were mean. They didn’t go to school. At 12-13 years old, they had no education. They could type at any time. They said that it was their leader who told them to act in this way. But I’ve never met this chief. But at that moment, it was still fine. For those who left later, in 1977, it was much worse. People couldn’t eat. On the road, I walked to…. It’s like walking from the 12th district to the 13th district. There were Cambodians. I asked them if we could rest, and some rice. I gave them things in exchange. I had some medicine. I had like doliprane. “These drugs, I give them to you.” They were out of medication. I gave them medicine, they gave me grains of rice. They gave us chicken, so our children could eat. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have been able to eat. On the road, we hadn’t brought any clothes. We only had one outfit on us. We couldn’t take anything, they only said three days. If it was too heavy, we would have thrown it away. I didn’t bring anything at all. After walking to… the border, the water would come to me there. These four[the children]…. One had a fever, one stepped on a nail, one cut his foot, one had a fever. We didn’t have any medication. We exchanged all the medicines to feed the children. Then when the children were sick, we ran out of medicine. When we were eating, the water went up. Then we met a Chinese family. Chinese. When night fell, they said, “Tomorrow morning…” The Khmer Rouge said, “Tomorrow, we will have to work in the fields.” Our family was about 20 of us. With my brothers, all together. They said, “Now you have to register. Tomorrow morning, from 6 a.m., you will have to go to work in the fields. Plant rice.” I thought, “Gee, I can’t do it.” My older brother, my younger brother, there were only a few men. The elderly, the children, there were eleven children. How could rice be planted? Then I met this family. They were part of the “Ancient People”, they could not leave. They asked me, “Do you want to go to Vietnam? From here, it takes about 80 kilometres. But the Khmer Rouge can’t know that I showed you the way to go. You have to leave very early, at 5:00. The Khmer Rouge, at 6:00 a. m., will force you to work. You have to leave at 5:00. But your things, your bike, etc…, you have to give me everything. And do you have any gold?” I said, “Okay. Anything you want, I’ll give it to you. But tell me, what’s the way to Vietnam? He said, “Okay. Tomorrow, walk. When you see that you have to turn left or right, you will see a branch I put there as a marker. You’ll go that way.” We walked, until the water got there. The children could no longer move forward. I wore one, then another. I said, “It’s tiring!” I said, “We won’t make it. With a rope, so we can all jump into the water to die, it’s better!” It was too hard! My mother, etc… was forcing himself to eat. Like the second one, “Mom, I can’t eat congee.” But we didn’t have enough to cook rice. So he ate a little rice, a little leave. But he didn’t like to eat congee, he liked rice. “I don’t like congee, can I eat rice until it’s full?” How to do this? So I went to get some sweet potatoes, in another village, in a house in the countryside, there are also some in France. As in the countryside, a lot of things were planted there. I went there, asked the owner if she could give me some, for my children, and my elderly mother. I gave her drugs, glutamate, she said, “I’ll only give you three kilos of it.” But I dug up some cassava, there were six kilos of it. She yelled at me, saying, “Hey, Chinese girl[in Khmer], I’ll give you three kilos, you take a whole plant.” I said, “Please give it to me, I have a big family.” [in Khmer] I always spoke kindly to people. On the road, that’s how I would ask for food. We took what was there. We would get what we could find to use it. We couldn’t buy or sell. We had money, but we couldn’t spend it. There was a group of Khmer Rouge, like in a police station in France, a police station. It was time to eat, they rang the bell. There were about ten of them to eat, they had a huge pot of rice. They had collected a large quantity of bananas for them. And they had cooked a big dish of vegetables. When I heard the bell, I ran towards them, all by myself. I took a big bowl. I said, “Master, comrade, could you give me some?” [in Khmer] He said, “Go get some.” [in Khmer] He didn’t know I was holding a big bowl in my back, so I went to help myself. He yelled at me, he said, “Why are you taking so many?” I said, “Have mercy, I have five children, there are two elderly women, who have no food. There are eight of us. Please give me a little more.” He was eating, he told me to go and help myself. So I took a little more. On the road, there’s no need to talk about it, it was hard. On the road, we had no water to drink. There were corpses next door, in the forest, at the foot of the trees. I found water to drink, then I saw hair. There were bones, the smell was horrible! On the road, we slept like that. And at night, there were military cars passing by, we slept outside, without lighting. There was no lighting. We were just walking. All day long. At night, there was the moon. On the 15th of the month, we walked more, because the moon was brighter. In the morning, we would walk. Every day, we walked ten kilometres. Ten kilometers, the children couldn’t make it.

[i] How old were they?

r] The smallest was 8 months – 1 year old. The oldest, my grandfather’s son, was 11 years old. My eldest was 6 years old. The second one was 5 years old. The third 4 years, the last 8 months. On the way, we were asking for food. When we arrived in Vietnam, we were very happy. We gave away all our stuff so we could get through. We went to Vietnam. In Vietnam, they knew we were refugees. They took us to a camp. In one of the villages, there were Teochew. There were communities, and there were… how can I put this? It’s like today’s associations. In 1975, Cambodia became a communist after Vietnam. Vietnam was also a communist country. North Vietnam was also a communist country. We went in that way. My sister-in-law was a Chinese woman from Vietnam. She arrived in Phnom Penh as a child. To go to Vietnam, they asked us the Khmer Rouge, “Where are you going?” I said, “in Vietnam.” You had to be able to speak Vietnamese. On the boat, no one could speak it. When I was a little girl, I was in business. I knew how to speak Vietnamese and Khmer. He said, “Where do you want to go?” I said, “I’m going to Vietnam.” He saw that I was speaking Vietnamese, I said I was going to get my father. I lied, I said my father was there. “And who is this lady?” I said it was my mother. “And your mother is here?” I said, “My father married a Vietnamese woman, I have to go there.” Otherwise, they wouldn’t have let me go, they would have killed me. Of the whole boat, no one could speak Vietnamese, there was only my sister-in-law and me. Then, when we got off the boat, I met a Khmer Rouge. My brother was limping. Since he was born, he has been limping. He has no strength to walk. I had to help him. I rented an ox cart for the two elderly people, the five children, and my sister-in-law’s children, that was nine. So they can get on the ox cart. Otherwise, they couldn’t walk. They couldn’t walk. As soon as my brother started walking, he would fall. He was standing by me. That Khmer Rouge guy asked me “Where are you going?” I said I was going further, like from here[the 12th] to go in the 13th. I lied to him, that my family lived there. So he let me pass. When we got off the boat, he was there waiting for us. He said, “Earlier, you said you were going to work in the fields, now why are you looking for the road to Vietnam? Come up, you can’t go up there!” I had already given him money, he wanted me to give it to him again, but I didn’t have any more. I had given some to some Chinese, a family, who helped us leave. And the Khmer Rouge came to make trouble. Then we arrived in Vietnam at 10:00 p. m. We went to spend the night in a temple. In a temple. Like a Chinese temple. There was a big one. There was a school, and on this side, a temple. We spent the night there. The next day, we took the bus to continue the road. To go where my sister-in-law comes from. There were many Chinese there. To Kak Lang. There were 500 kilometres of road. We had no choice, we arrived at Kak Lang. I was sick because we were drinking water without paying attention. There were five-six of us going to the hospital. My sister-in-law’s daughter is dead. There were Chinese people with hearts, who took us away, they took us to a refugee camp. At the time, disabled soldiers lived there. In the jungle. They put us in small houses. There were six families in all. A family had a house. I was with my mother, and five children. I had the papers. Originally, I had made papers to go to Hong Kong. My second older brother was in Hong Kong. And my ex-husband had first gone there. We were supposed to go, but Pol Pot arrived and we couldn’t leave. We couldn’t leave, but I had the papers and a family booklet. I thought, now, we each had a house, and a portion of rice.

[i] It was in Vietnam?

[r] Yes in Vietnam. In Vietnam, I met a… a Chinese communist. He said, “No…” The Vietnamese communists were better than the Khmer communists. They had humanity, if they took your money, they didn’t bother you. He said, “Now…” Every day, they gave us two cents. A pot of rice grains, flour, for us to cook. There was nothing at all in the jungle. There was nothing there. I said, “How do I do it?” He said, “Now I’m taking you 1,000 kilometres away to work in the fields by the sea. In all, there were 20 families who had to go there, we were six families, about twenty people. I said….. They were just Teochew. As a community. I said….. My little brother had a limp. There was my older brother, and my younger brother. There was also my neighbour, a young man, with his mother. And a person from Battambang. She was a member of the family, do you know her? She sold fried noodles at the Battambang market. [name of a friend] knows her. We were together. He said, “Now the Chinese in Vietnam have to take you to a place near Kampot, by the sea, 1,000 kilometres away. There are no houses, you have to build them yourself. They will give you 6 bamboo stems. To build your houses. Do you agree with that?” I said, “No agreement.” I told my brothers to get on their side. I was all alone without a husband, there was my mother and five children. I told them, “Now I don’t want your money or the rice pot. I’ll manage on my own. I fled Cambodia with great difficulty. When you arrive in Vietnam, you want to send me to work in the fields. In Cambodia, I was already working in the fields. What matters to me is to find my husband, and that my children are safe. I don’t want you, the community, to give me that money. I don’t want it. I can handle it myself. They said, “I’ve already talked to the people there tomorrow, at 7:00 a. m., we’ll pick you up, take the whole family there.” I told my brothers to leave during the night. I was the only one talking[to people in the community], four of them came. Four came. I said, “Okay, tomorrow… From tonight, I’m going to look for a house myself.” I found some old friends, who helped me. My mother still had some money left. I said, “Now I don’t need help from the Chinese community. I’ll manage on my own.” “Now we want to help you. If you go, we’ll be happy.” I was a single woman with five children, and two elderly people. How can I build a house? They said, “You have an older brother and a younger brother to help you.” I said, everyone has their family, no one can help me. I did not agree with them. That night, I left. I left and rented a dark apartment. I used to cook things to sell them. I was making fermented cabbage to sell it. To sell it to the Chinese, and feed the children. Then in Vietnam…. We hadn’t even been to Saigon yet. It’s in….. It was just in time, my mother had kept Hong Kong currency. And I remembered my older brother’s address in Hong Kong. Connaught Road West. At the time, I didn’t speak Vietnamese well. I went to Saigon. I phoned my older brother, and I was able to find my husband. So I phoned my grandfather, but the translation from English into Vietnamese was not good. The first time, I couldn’t reach him. The second time, I managed to find my older brother. My brother heard from me at that time. I went to live in Saigon. Then I was taken to a camp again. Because on my papers, I was a refugee. So I had to go to a home. There was nothing in the house, it was the jungle! At the time, the Vietnamese communist military was laying anti-personnel mines. They were laying anti-personnel mines. It exploded and my nephew died. In Vietnam. We cut wood to make charcoal. It was not good to live like that. We didn’t go out, we stayed locked in the camp. It was horrible! It was horrible! You had to go 300 kilometres to buy food and feed the children. We had no choice, we went back to Saigon. In Saigon, they looked for houses that were destroyed during the war by air raids. We went to live in there. I waited to make the papers, I asked for papers, and then we could come to France. With these papers, the Vietnamese government let us go. He let us go. As I was with too many children and elderly people, they allowed us to go out. But to enter France, we didn’t have a permit. [My ex-husband] didn’t dare say he was with anyone else. He didn’t give any news. I kept sending him letters. He didn’t answer. [My husband] spoke French, he helped people with their papers in Vietnam. I also knew a lot of people. Chinese from Vietnam. So they asked me to help them make papers so that they could have Cambodian nationality, so that they could leave the country. [My husband] knew… He helped these people flee the country. In Vietnam, I was able to take this road, and meet old friends. They told me, “It doesn’t make sense, in Phnom Penh, you were trading. You don’t have to stay in the jungle, chop wood, sell coal. It’s no use at all. I wanted to live in Saigon, to wait for the news, and to settle my papers. When I arrived in Vietnam and Saigon, my brothers had also come. I looked for accommodation for all of us. In Vietnam, we lived next door to the police station. They were also coming to bother us! They said living in a studio, nine in it, that’s bullshit! At the market, we rented a shop to do business. My brother was limping. He had been making clothes since he was a child. My brother worked at the market, but he was not allowed to sleep there. As today, in stores, you are not allowed to sleep there. At night, he had no choice. Up there, we were already living with eleven of us. My brother and I lived in a studio crammed together in my name. We were waiting to settle our papers. With my name and that of my brother, we rented a shop at the market for my brother to make clothes. There were five of them in his family. They slept there at night. The police came to bother us, they said they were not allowed to sleep there. They looked at the name on the papers, it was my name. So they came to my house to pick me up. The policeman said, “Is that your name? Is this your store downstairs?” I said, “Yes, why?” He said, “Now your brother is not allowed to live there. You, normally, you don’t have the right to live like this, eleven of you.” At night, we slept like this. We couldn’t turn around. At eleven, how to sleep? I said, “Okay.” In Vietnamese. I said[in Vietnamese], “If you don’t let my brother sleep there, we’ll all go to the police station.” I’ll go to the police station tonight to sleep. He had no choice. I went to see the chief. The policeman took me to the police station. He told his boss, “I brought her here.” He said, “Can’t you leave and look for a place to live?” I said, “Yes, I’m a refugee, where can I go?” I had a hard time fleeing to Vietnam, there is no reason for me to go back to Cambodia. Now, if you say I’m not allowed to live there, tonight I’m taking my children and nephews to the police station to sleep. What do you think?” The police station is big. Upstairs, on the second floor, on the third floor, there is room. They had no choice and left us. They dropped out. When you go somewhere, if you’re not bold, you can’t do it. You have no choice. That’s the context. How to do this? Isn’t that right? My brother had fled from the countryside, one of his children died because of a bomb. He had gone to chop wood, he jumped on a mine and it exploded. Her three children died because of the explosion. We had to leave quickly. We didn’t die in Cambodia, and when we arrived in Vietnam we… In Vietnam, that’s what happens… Then, four years later,[my husband] came. Before, he worked in an insurance company. I asked him to meet friends, who couldn’t leave the country, in Vietnam, I was already helping people leave the country. [My husband] arrived in 1978, I arrived in 1979. I too helped people to leave the country, to get plane tickets. [My husband] when he wanted to leave… I knew customers, he knew people who worked at Air France. I had no choice, I had to do this[to make money]. Trading on the street is like now, in the 13th, if there are police coming, how do you do it? You don’t have the strength to leave. I was selling clothes. The police were coming, I didn’t have the strength to leave. I had no choice. So I helped people get papers. When I was doing that, people would ask me… They[government people] told me… they didn’t take any money, because they were communists. They didn’t take money. I told them, “Excuse me”, in Vietnamese. [In Vietnamese], “Excuse me.” I said, “Could you help me? If you can help me…” But I knew what to do, so I gave him some money. He said, “We are communists, we don’t take money. He said that. You know. But he still took it in secret. I said, “Excuse me, could you help this family, it’s my family? Could you help me?” I had no choice, to make money. To feed my children, to feed my mother, I had to do that. I forced myself for another six months, selling things on the street, with my older brother. The police kept bothering us. I had no choice, I was selling fabric. But they were still arresting me. They stopped me, and measured with a meter, to see how many meters it was. I took a bag of cloth, and I gave it to someone near the market. When people went abroad, and they wanted to buy fabric, I didn’t have a meter, I counted with my hand, so it was 20 centimetres. I was selling fabric. In Vietnam, I was doing everything I could do. For four years, before coming to France. When[my husband] arrived in France, he called the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, asking, “Why doesn’t this family have their papers yet?” They said, “There are still some papers missing.” [My ex-husband] hadn’t arranged for us to come. [My husband] wrote me a letter saying, “I just met your husband, he didn’t make the arrangements for you to come. Now, do you want me to help you?” I said, “Yes, you have to help me.” In Vietnam, we already had a relationship. I said I couldn’t decide. I had my four children. Isn’t that right? He had no family, I didn’t know what to do. I had no choice. In Vietnam, I lived next door to the police station. We ate meat, with water bindweeds on it[to hide the meat]. My old mother always wanted to eat well. And my children, the eldest was 8-9 years old, he loved eating meat, he didn’t want to eat only vegetables. The police always came to bother us, they told my children, “What does your mother do?” They would say, “I don’t know what my mother does.” I used to travel by motorcycle, to go right and left. It was after 4 years that I arrived in France.

[i] How did you manage to come to France?

[r] How?

[i] How could you come?

[r] I came by plane. By plane.

[i] in 1979?

[r] Yes, in 1979. In September 1979.

[i] How many of you were coming?

[r] I came with my family and my mother. With five children, there were eight of us. We came to eight of us.

[i] And you first arrived in which city?

[r] When I arrived, I had to bring my children to the home. We said that in the home, we would be helped. I was angry with my ex-husband, I didn’t have any papers yet. He wanted me to go with him, I said no. I said, “Stop. We have to fix this first. Before you decide.” A friend wanted to take me to the home, I said no, not right away. My children first went to live with their father. I went alone to live with my friend, who is called[friend’s name]. His wife’s papers, I was the one who got them. I lived with them.

[i] In Paris?

r] I first lived with my friends, then applied for[social housing] at City Hall. The town halls in France are fine. They helped us, they saw on the papers that there were five children, two elderly people. In all, there were eight of us. So they gave me this accommodation. I still live there now. It’s the Catholic community. The Catholic community of the 12th arrondissement. Eight families helped us. We could buy the furniture we wanted. At the time, I didn’t need much. They took us to the Samaritan woman, the department store. We could take as much as we wanted. But we didn’t dare take anything. They saw my situation. [My ex-husband] no longer showed up because he was with another woman. I had no choice. I had five children, two elderly people, so they gave me this accommodation.

[i] This one?

[r] Yes. I still live there now.

[i] Have you lived here with your children?

[r] Yes, they lived here until they grew up. Now they’re all grown up. One of them went to the United States. One went to Guadeloupe. Now there are two boys left here. The youngest one lives in Vitry. The eldest, today…. It’s possible that when he was a kid, he was a little… now he has a disease, he has a… What’s it called? He’s depressed. He wonders why his father abandoned him when he was a kid. He is still…. He gets angry all the time. He has three children. His wife is French. He has three children. He can’t move on. The kid, he’s moved on, but he says, “Why do others have a father, and we don’t have a father?” He doesn’t even know his father. From Vietnam, I brought all four of them to France.

[i] And their father, where did he go?

[r] He left with another woman. And he didn’t take care of it, he didn’t come to see them. To the children, he didn’t take responsibility. When you are a man, isn’t it, you may no longer want a woman and get married again, but children are your responsibility, you have to come and see them. The four of them went to school here, he didn’t come to see them. Now the children do not recognize him as their father. He says that I told them not to recognize him, but he is the one who does not know how to behave as a father, as an adult. Isn’t that right? Even old friends, we’ll visit them, we’ll see them. He didn’t take care of it. He only listened to his new wife. He didn’t take care of his children at all. The eldest, he couldn’t move on. As a result, he was not good at school. He thought too much about it. Me and[my husband] opened a restaurant in the suburbs. So my mother raised him. My mother raised him. At 16, he was not good at school because he was too depressed. He stopped. He could not continue his studies. The three little ones, they managed to get an education.

[i] What did they study?

[r] They studied in French, not Chinese. Now, the second, she is a pharmacist in Guadeloupe. Now, another[child] in a school, he teaches French. He is a French teacher. Now, the government has given her a scholarship to study and be a psychologist. He graduated from high school. He would like to write a book about my history. About the escape, how he was unhappy, how his father abandoned him. The other day, he went to another region, with a teacher, and eleven students. They wanted to know the history of Cambodia. He told them about it. The other day, we went to the mountains together. He wrote things. He asked me, because he was too small, he was 4-5 years old at the time. He doesn’t remember. He says he can put it in perspective, but his older brother can’t, which is why he has this disease. He still wonders why his father abandoned him. That’s the way it is.

[i] And in France, when you arrived, did you work?

Yes! When I arrived, I worked in a restaurant. I worked there for a while, then I stopped. Then I worked in the clothing industry. At[boss’s name]. In Crimea. I worked in the garment industry. I sewed buttons, I sewed sewing. I was distributing the work. And,[name of a friend] couldn’t do it, she hurt my feelings. When I gave her work, she was wrong. I wasn’t saying anything. I got along well with her. This friend. I was sewing, it hurt my head a lot. You had to know when to go left or right, so it would go fast. I was very slow. I had to wait for my daughter to come back, for her to help me. I had no choice. I preferred the restoration. To work.

[i] What restaurant?

[r] The first… it was in Belleville. “Great Vietnam.”

[i] And what were you doing? Were you cooking?

[r] It was Vietnamese cuisine, I knew how to cook. I was cooking Vietnamese food. After that, after Belleville, I opened a clothing company. To Sentier.

[i] In the Path?

[r] Yes. For about a year. Almost two years, then I stopped. Then I worked again in the restaurant business. I worked again in the restaurant business. We were looking for a cook to cook Vietnamese and Thai cuisine, and who knows Asian cuisine. For the evening. At[Asian restaurant in Opera]. I worked there for nine years. Then, after 9 years, I stopped. Then I took care of my mother, who was old. I stopped. Then the restaurant “New Nioullaville”, in Belleville, offered me to work there again. I worked there again for a few years. Then I stopped working.

[i] How long have you been out of work?

[r] Now I haven’t worked for five years. When I was 65, in the 13th, they kept asking me to work. What’s his name…. To “China Masséna”. He comes from Battambang, do you know him? You don’t know him? The boss of “China Massena”. [Former boss] is dead. His wife liked me. She wanted me to cook Vietnamese food. She told me, “You’re not old. You can work. You can cook all the dishes. The chef just stopped, can you help us?” I said, “I can’t. I’m 65 years old, I’m already retired. I couldn’t declare.” She said, “I don’t believe you.” I showed him my papers, I said, “I’m 65 years old, I can’t work.” My children also told me, “Mom, you’re sick, you have diabetes, you never know if something is going on. What’s the point of working?” Isn’t that right? It’s no use. There were people who said, “Don’t your children care about you? At your age, are you going to work?” So I didn’t go to work.

[i] And you think that living conditions in France are good?

[r] Very good.

[i] Do you like it?

[r] Yes, life in France is good. The social system is excellent. As soon as we have difficulties, we are taken care of. Now I live in France, I wouldn’t be able to live anywhere else. Even if I could live in Cambodia, I would no longer be used to it. My daughter lives in Guadeloupe, in a big house, it’s French territory. But I’m not used to it. There are many Asians here. It’s convenient to get around. My daughter also tells me to go see her in the United States, but I don’t want to go there. I don’t want to go there. I’ve lived here for a long time, I’m used to it.

[i] How do you like life in Paris?

[r] Yes! I love Paris. And my children grew up here. So, I love Paris, I couldn’t live anywhere else. I’m old now. Isn’t that right?

[i] And in Paris, where do you like to go to go for a walk?

r] I participate in trips organized by the Town Hall for seniors, to go on vacation, it’s great.

[i] Where on holiday?

[r] The other day, they took us to Greece, to Italy.

[i] Is this a trip for the seniors?

[r] Yes, we were a whole group. In April, you must register at the Town Hall. It’s for seniors.

[i] Right now, you live in the 12th district, do you like it?

[r] Yes, I like it very much. I don’t want to leave it. The social system in France is very good.

[i] Do you like going to the 13th district? Or Belleville?

[r] In Belleville? Yes. But there’s not much.

[i] And the 13th?

[r] The 13th, I often go there, it’s next door. Belleville is a little further away.

[i] And what are you doing in the 13th?

I do my shopping, sometimes I see my friends, I have a coffee, I talk with my friends, then I go home. Nothing special. Sometimes I go to Vitry to see my youngest son’s baby. From time to time.

[i] How many grandchildren do you have? I have nine. Nine grandchildren. They’re all grown up. The oldest is 21 years old. My grandson in the United States passed the baccalaureate. He works in IT.

[i] Your grandchildren live in Paris?

[r] He sometimes comes on vacation.

[i] And your other grandchildren, do they live in Paris?

[r] The others, yes. My eldest son has three children. My youngest son has two children, that makes five. There is one who, from Guadeloupe, came to study in Bordeaux.

[i] And have you already told them your story?

[r] What do you mean?

[i] Did you tell them how you got here?

[r] No.

[i] They asked for you?

[r] I don’t know French. They don’t know Chinese. Their mother has to translate. My children, I told them, they know. My little sister left in 1977. We left in 1975. In 1976, my little sister, halfway there, with my older brother…. My older brother lived in Pailin, in Battambang, with my older sister. My older sister lived in Poipet. She wanted to go to Phnom Penh to meet my mother. But halfway through, she couldn’t continue. We were in Vietnam, she didn’t find us. She lived under Pol Pot. For four years. My older brother, the third, and the fifth, is dead. There were five of them in his family. They didn’t have any food. They didn’t have the strength to work, they were killed. My little sister, they said, “Young lady, why don’t you have the strength to work?” They dug a hole, and buried her alive. That’s why at the time, when they asked me, in France they asked me, “Do you want to go back to Cambodia? I said, “I don’t want to.” In Vietnam, they also asked me, “Why do you want to go to France? Not in Cambodia? I said, “I left Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge, I don’t want to go back to Cambodia. I hope I can go to France.”

[i] In France, did you take French courses?

[r] Yes, but I didn’t succeed. I didn’t succeed in learning. The town hall had put us in contact with five families. They gave me classes once a week. But at the time, I often had a headache. I was nervous. I had to look for the route with the map of the subway. I used to go to people’s houses, but I didn’t speak French. I always answered in Vietnamese. The lady would tell me, “I don’t understand… What language do you speak?” I always answered in Vietnamese, I didn’t speak French. And I wasn’t going to…. I don’t… Now, there are many foreigners coming, there are schools to learn French. Before that was not the case, we used to go to families who taught us French… I wasn’t going to go. When I arrived, I had my family to support, I had to work. I couldn’t take classes. It didn’t fit. It’s good that in France, the State is helping us. When my children were young, we were entitled to benefits. I had to work to be able to eat. There you go. For children, it’s good in France. Education is free of charge. They help us.

i] And now that you’re retired, what do you do on a daily basis?

[r] Now? What do I do on a daily basis? I’m going to Vitry, I’m going to see the baby. Then I come back here at night, I cook, that’s it. Sometimes I go for a walk in the shops, to see…. Now I’m old, what can I do? If I had a job, I’d work. If my hands didn’t hurt, I’d be working. Because my retirement is too small. It’s not enough. [My husband] goes to an association, that’s good, to pass the time. Because when you stay home, you have no energy.

[i] And your children, they all have French nationality?

[r] Yes, all of them. They are French.

[i] And you, you made the request?

[r] I talk a little, but not a lot. My grandchildren say to me, “Grandma, why don’t you learn French?” I told them, “Why don’t you learn Chinese, and you speak to me in Chinese?”

[i] And you talk to them in Teochew?

[r] No, in French. Here and there. To tell them more, I have no choice, I tell their mother to translate. There you go. My daughter who lives in the United States speaks French and English. She speaks… She also speaks Khmer, and Vietnamese. She’s smart. She’s smart. She also speaks a little Chinese.

[i] And when you came to France, did you have other children?

[r] How?

[i] In all, you have four children?

[r] Yes. Today? Today? I have four children in Paris. One is in the United States, one in Guadeloupe, that makes six. There’s my older brother, and my younger brother.

[i] And your other brothers and sisters?

[r] From time to time, we eat together for the holidays. When there are parties. We eat together. My older brother left with me, and with my younger brother. I arrived first. I think my older brother arrived in 1980. Me in 1979. My brother-in-law, his brother-in-law, brought him to Austria. Two years later, he came here.

[i] He also lives in Paris?

[r] He lives in… Bobigny.

[i] Bobigny?

[r] My older brother, he lives in Poissy. He lives in Poissy.

Are you going to pray at the temple?

[r] How?

[i] Are you going to pray at the temple?

[r] I don’t understand.

Are you going to pray at the temple?

[r] Yes. I pray Buddha. I also go to the Catholic Church. Wherever I go, I do not only pray to Buddha. My big girl over there, she’s Catholic. The Catholic community there celebrates three festivals a year. With the money we raise from the sale of tickets for a buffet… There was a ticket sale…. The money collected was sent to Africa for an orphanage. My daughter, when she was studying, when she was not yet a teacher, she took care of the elderly and orphans. There was a couple who had no children, who had money, they helped in the community they organized four parties a year, they sent money to Africa in the poorest countries, in orphanages. To build schools, and buy books. And the couple was about to leave, because one of them had cancer. They asked my daughter, “When I’m gone, can you organize these parties?” Take this money, to save these children from buying books, cakes, notebooks. My daughter said, “Okay.” One year, a few years ago, I went there, my daughter sold tickets. Everyone had bought American dishes, takeaway dishes to put on the buffet. At the time, I was working at the “New Nioulaville”. My daughter said, “My mother is here, she can cook original dishes for you. They were happy. I cooked Vietnamese and Thai dishes. The people of this Catholic community, there were about a hundred of them, they all came to buy tickets. My daughter had sent them a letter. To sell his tickets. That year, I went there and participated. Eight of the elderly helped me. I was the only one doing everything. I taught them what to do. With the tickets sold, we raised about $10,000. $10,000. Usually it was only a few thousand dollars. We raised almost $12,000. This money was sent to Africa, there, to the orphanage. There, the person in charge of receiving the donations had an article published in the newspaper. To say that this person, this state of the United States, with the name of my daughter, and my name, that it was the mother from France… They especially thanked me for cooking these dishes to help these children. All these children, they were able to go to school, and find work after school. In this orphanage, they were able to feed themselves, study. I did it with my heart. You asked me if I am Catholic or Buddhist. Both. I don’t have a single religion. There you go.

[i] And… Do you ever think about things from the past today?

[r] I don’t want to think about it. I don’t dare to think about it. I think about what I’m going to do the next day, when I can go on vacation. Things from the past, no. Isn’t that right? I fled the Pol Pot regime. I survived several times. The other day, I met in the street, during the Moon Festival. I was eating with my children. There were people driving a car, I don’t know where they came from, they said, “Madam, hello.” I said, “Yes, hello.” The driver pulled out a map, and pretended to ask for direction. He said, “Do you know where the pharmacy is open seven days a week? Saturday and Sunday. I am someone who has a good heart, I said, “The pharmacy open seven days a week is at Nation, and at Daumesnil. I told him that. He told me, “I have rings to offer you.” I said, “No, why would I accept it?” He told me, “You’re sweet.” Actually, they wanted to get me in their car. In the back, a woman came down. She wanted to take me in. At that moment, a French couple arrived. They asked what was going on. They saw that I was screaming. I didn’t want to take their rings. Why would I take it from them? They said, “We’re making an exchange.” I said, “No!” A French couple arrived, and then they left. There’s everything, like no one else. Isn’t that right?

[i] You have encountered many problems?

[r] Yes, I’ve had a lot of problems. The other day, I went to the 13th floor, met a Chinese woman. She asked me, “Madam, can you speak Mandarin? I have problems. I’m looking for a doctor[in Mandarin]. I said, “Today is Saturday, I don’t know if there are any.” She said, there’s one named Wang.” I knew it was weird, I said, “Go straight.” She said, “Can you take me there?” I was waiting for my husband to take the car out. I said, “No way, my husband’s taking the car out.” Another person arrived, she said, “My husband is home, he is very sick, he has a stomachache.” I said, “Can you take your husband to the hospital?” She lied to me so I could go with her. All my life, I’ve had a lot of problems.

[i] There have been others?

No, there were not many in France, but many in Vietnam and Cambodia. You know, when I went to the United States. I did not have French nationality. I had to declare that I was going with a group. With a group. I didn’t say I was going to see my daughter. She had been there for 10 years and had just had a baby. For the trip,[my husband] said that I was with a group to get a visa easily. So I said I was with a group. When I arrived in the United States, I could not speak French or English. At the airport, they told me, “You’re with a group”, they didn’t know which group. There were groups of French people of about ten people. I was alone. They said, “Madam, wait. There’s a problem.” They said, “You said you came in a group, where are the people in your group?” They blocked me there. They blocked me and in the immigration service, they asked me questions. They asked me, “Why did you say you were in a group, when you’re alone? Why are you coming?” I didn’t dare say I was coming to see my daughter. I had already been there three times. Four times. I had no choice. They blocked me for an hour. They checked my luggage. My son-in-law is an American. He was waiting for me outside. The immigration service asked me, “What languages do you speak?” I said I speak Mandarin and Cantonese. They called someone to translate into French. I said I didn’t speak French very well. They said there was no choice, because the person who spoke Mandarin had already left. They searched the computer, they saw that I had a visa, that everything was in order. They said, “Why does it say you’re in a group? And you’re all alone? Who are you? Who are you? Where is your group?” I said I don’t know. “But you come to see who here in the United States?” I had no choice, I said I was coming to see my daughter. “Where is your daughter’s address?” “I don’t have it, you took all my stuff.” They said, “What kind of proof do you have?” They wanted my daughter’s phone number. I wrote to them. They called her, they saw that I had family here. My son-in-law waited an hour outside. He said, “My mother-in-law is here, she doesn’t speak English.” They said that I said I came as a group, that they wanted to know. Because at the time, there were the attacks. They were afraid. But I wasn’t afraid. I wasn’t afraid. When I arrived in France, I couldn’t speak French, but I wasn’t afraid. At the time, when I was working at[Asian restaurant in Opera], after three days, I had closed the clothing company. But I hadn’t yet been unemployed. At the restaurant, they were looking for a cook. I had to go to work there quickly. But I didn’t have unemployment yet. I had received a letter. That I would soon touch him. And the owner of the restaurant said, I met him and he said, “You can come to work, but you have to declare it.” This is downtown, he was afraid of controls. I said, “Is it possible to declare it in two days, I wait until I have my unemployment, before you declare it. About 10,000 francs. People who worked in this restaurant, two Chinese who had just arrived, had no papers. The boss has been arrested. I heard the news from people who came here to buy rotisserie. The boss was arrested because the employees had no papers, he was taken to the City[police prefecture]. In fact, the translator was a Chinese[from mainland China]. A real Chinese man, who spoke French. He came to the second restaurant, I worked in the second restaurant. This story happened in the first restaurant. The boss had spent a night in prison. He still hadn’t come out. They found that he had a second restaurant. So they came to the restaurant where I worked. I thought I was declared. Employees had to be declared in a notebook. I had only been working on it for three days. The boss had not yet validated. I said, “No problem, try my dishes first.” I didn’t have time to bring my papers yet. My papers were in my purse, I hadn’t given them yet, it wasn’t the boss’s fault, it was my fault. The labour inspector came into the kitchen. With five people coming down. There was one upstairs, a woman who could speak Mandarin and French. Then four people came down. To check the papers, I gave them mine. I asked what was going on. She went upstairs with my papers, to see if I was registered in the notebook. The other employees had been working there for a long time. They were registered, but not me. The inspector told me to come up. Downstairs, there was a phone. I asked, “Please, can I call my husband? My husband speaks French. Why do I have to go up there?” I knew they were arresting people. They had arrested some in the other restaurant. I asked if I could call my husband. Because my husband spoke French. They told me, “It doesn’t matter” and told me to come up. Upstairs, we didn’t speak French, we spoke Chinese. They asked me what languages I spoke. I said, “Vietnamese, Cambodian, Cantonese.” They told me to come up. So I went upstairs. They asked me questions, and they told me to get in their car to go to the City. There were six inspectors, with this woman, they took me to the City. To compare our stories. First they asked me, “Madam, why did I arrest you[in Mandarin]? Now I’ve arrested you, why aren’t you afraid?” I said, “Why should I be afraid? First of all, I didn’t kill anyone. Second, I didn’t do anything wrong. I just tried a new job.” “Did the boss tell you not to declare.” I said, “He’s not the boss.” The boss already had one less mistake. I answered correctly. At the City, I didn’t know the boss was in the next room. I was in another room. The inspector typed on his computer, asked when I arrived etc…… Another person also came to question me. To see if I was answering the same thing. This woman was translating. She said, “Aren’t you afraid?” [in Mandarin] I said, “No, I have nothing to worry about. I don’t work under the table. I have nothing to worry about. Did the boss tell you to do it like that?” I said, “No. I’ve only been here three days. My papers are in my purse, I didn’t give them to the boss. The boss didn’t have time.” That night, they released the boss. The owner of the restaurant was very happy. He invited me to the old restaurant, to meet him, and tell me that I had answered correctly. “Otherwise, I would have spent another night at the police station.” [in Cantonese] Otherwise we would have been fined. The fine would have been 150,000 francs per person. That’s the way it was. That’s why, when you behave well, you don’t lose. You shouldn’t betray people. It’s true that I didn’t want to declare it right away, I was waiting to receive my unemployment. The inspector asked if the boss had told me not to declare myself. I said, “No. I made the decision. First, I had just registered as unemployed, second, I had only been working there for three days. Even if I wanted to declare it, it was already too late. He said, “Why isn’t your name in the register?” So they took me to the City, on the sixth floor. My French is not good, but I dare to negotiate with people. I was able to give these arguments. There you go.

[i] And when was this story told?

[r] For about 10 years. It’s been about 10 years.

[i] And the happiest moment of your life was when?

[r] I’m happiest now. I’m an old woman. I’ve been happy for seven years. I had my retirement at 63. I have six children. At 63, I retired. Normally, it would have been at 65. They said, with my pay slips, that I had done enough work, and that I had six children. They granted me retirement at 63. You don’t have to be unemployed. It allows me to live properly. I can eat in the canteen for three euros. To have a coffee is only one euro. Which country is as good as France? Look in Cambodia, there are not the same rights.

[i] And your two youngest children, how old are they? What do they do for a living?

[r] In Paris? The third daughter, she works, I believe, at Hermès. At Hermès, handbags. The kid, I don’t know, you have to ask my husband, I don’t know, he works on the computer. His boss sends him to this or that place, his boss sent him to Marseille. In a store, he speaks English, French. To negotiate business. But I don’t know what it is. I don’t know what he’s doing. There you go. And the third one works in an office, at Hermès, which makes handbags. In this company. The little one, he moves all the time. Sometimes he goes to Lille. His boss is in Lille. He’s got a lot of stores everywhere. He speaks English. He used to live here, but he didn’t like his job, so he moved to Canada for a year. In Canada, it was too cold, he was too tired, he returned to France. What he studied, I don’t know. I don’t speak French, even if he explained it to me, I wouldn’t understand. But what they do for a living is not bad. That’s the way it is.

[i] And at the moment, you are still participating in trips organized by the Town Hall?

[r] Yes, this year, in April, we went there. We just went there in April. And the children came, they took me to…. I went to….. What’s it called, it’s near… Switzerland.

[i] Where? Where?

[r] What’s it called? Near the mountain. Because in Guadeloupe, there is the sea. So they took me to this place. The third, her boyfriend, her husband’s family, lives there. South of Bordeaux. Retirement in France is good. We don’t care about anything. You can garden, plant vegetables, take care of yourself in this way. Eat, stay still. The Chinese, they work to the death. They always want to earn more. Isn’t that right? Always earn more. But it’s no use. When you die, you don’t take that money with you.

[i] In 1979, why did you choose France? Did you have family in France? In 1979, you yourself chose France?

[r] Yes! Yes!

[i] For what reason?

[r] I knew that… At the time, I had no family in France. Finally… the father of my four children was already in France. And in the United States, I had no family. Neither is Australia. So I registered to come to France. [My ex-husband] didn’t do the paperwork for us, we couldn’t make it. I had to wait four years to get here. I think it was nice to come to France. When we arrived, we were helped with everything. When you arrive, if you have nothing, you are housed in a home.

[i] You first lived in a home?

[r] No, I didn’t live in a home. They very quickly assigned me this accommodation. They studied my file, they saw that I was a single woman, with five children, two elderly people, they quickly assigned me this housing. We were lucky. Believe me, I will.

[i] How big is this apartment?

[r] Before, this was a bedroom, there were four bedrooms, and a living room. We’ve expanded this space. When the children come to eat, there are people there. There are three bedrooms there.

[i] And now, who do you live with here?

[r] With my husband, there are two of us. I have a friend, who has no family. She comes to me often to talk. She lives alone in the suburbs. I do good deeds. When I see unhappy people, if I can help them, I help them.

[i] Have you ever been to China?

[r] Yes. China, I’ve been there twice. I went to Shanghai, Beijing, Wenzhou, Hong Kong.

[i] And on Teochew’s side, did you go there?

[r] Yes.

[i] Do you like China?

[r] Yes, I love China too. China, my ancestors were from there. I went to Wenzhou, we have a friend, who is a customer of my husband’s. In Wenzhou, we went to…. There, we were well treated. We met someone who… who worked at the police station, as a secretary. There, with the car, he asked his driver to take us for a tour. In the evening, he served us tea and talked with us. He told me, “You’re strong!” He took us for a drive. He welcomed us for two weeks. He told his driver to take us for a tour. With the driver. In Shanghai…. From Shanghai, we went to Wenzhou. It was through Shanghai that we entered. They told me, “You’re a refugee, how did you get into China?” You are a refugee, you do not have French nationality. They saw that I had two names. A Cambodian name, a Chinese name given by my parents. The name with which I enrolled in school. I put as a name[Chinese name]. For the papers, when I want to go to Hong Kong, and Taiwan, I have to use my Chinese name. I also use my Cambodian name, in Cambodian writing. Because I was born in Cambodia. They were looking for stories from me. “Why do you have two names? You’re a refugee, how could you come to China?” I said, “I have a passport, why can’t I come in?” “How come you can speak Mandarin?” I said, “In Cambodia, I learned Chinese.” “The Chinese you’re talking about, it sounds like Pekingese.” They blocked me for an hour in Shanghai. They saw on my passport that I had two names, that I was a refugee, that before the Cambodians, they would not let them enter China. I didn’t know that. Here, they allowed me to go there, I got a visa. They asked me why I had two names, how to answer them? It was complicated. But each time, I met nice people. Good people.

[i] Are you… How can I say, someone lucky?

[r] Cambodian?

[i] No…. Are you lucky?

[r] Ah, lucky? Yes, that’s right, I’m lucky. Yes.

[i] Do you think you’re lucky?

[r] Yes, I’m not afraid to die. I can go anywhere. You can leave me anywhere, I’m not afraid to die. Wherever I go, I can manage. At the time,[my ex-husband] asked me if I was okay with him picking up the children. I said it was not possible. “I already lived in two communist countries before I arrived in France. I am entitled to benefits for my children. Why should I have to make up with you?” That is not possible. Isn’t that right? When it’s broken, it’s broken. It’s sad for the children. Isn’t that right? Now,[my husband] is a nice person, he speaks good French, why should I… I can’t have two husbands. “I didn’t go to school much, I don’t express myself as well, but I have good sense. I don’t want to talk about it anymore. I don’t want to continue the discussion.” That’s not how life works. Isn’t that right? “You were engaged and you applied together. When I arrived, you were getting married. Why keep in touch?” Isn’t that right? It is better to suffer all at once, rather than to make the suffering last. I have decided…. With these two children… four children… five children. The tallest of the children, his parents didn’t come. I left it so that it could be taken care of by a structure…. It’s in Cambodian. It was a reception structure for refugees. There was a family… He moved to live with a foster family. I already had four children, I had no choice but to keep one more. In Vietnam, he had learned French. I took him to a foster home. So that he could live at home. And I had these four children, they were at home with my mother. He was taller, I let him live with a French family. So that he can quickly learn French. And they were lawyers, they could help him.

[i] How?

[r] Lawyers. In Marseille.

[i] Do you have anything to add?

[r] How?

[i] Do you have anything else to say?

[r] No.

[i] Thank you.

[r] You’re welcome.