SU_P_15

[i] Hello.
[r] Hello.
[i] Can you tell me where you were born?
[r] I was born in Pursat, Cambodia, near Battambang. When I was three, I came to live in Phnom Penh. In… Where was that? In the suburbs of Phnom Penh. Now it’s called ‘Sok Hok’ Street. I lived there until… 1975, then Pol Pot expelled us.
[i] And what year were you born?
[r] We walked to Vietnam…
[i] No, what year were you born?
[r] My birth? In 1948. On 19 November.
[i] You were born there, were your parents Teochew?
[r] Yes, Teochew, my parents were Chinese. They had fled China. To go to Pursat.
[i] They had left a long time ago?
[r] Yes, a long time ago. They left China to go and live in Pursat. Then we went to Phnom Penh. We went to live in Phnom Penh.
[i] Do you know if the Teochew who went there… Was it your grandmother… who was… Was it your grandmother who before that…
[r] She was Chinese. Chinese.
[i] What year did they go to live in Cambodia?
[r] [My parents] were in their forties. I wasn’t born yet.
[i] Did your parents go to Cambodia?
[r] Yes, my parents went to Cambodia. My parents had nine children. Nine children. Five girls, no, five boys and four girls. They came from China with four children, then in Cambodia they had five children.
[i] What place do you come in?
[r] Me? I was the eighth. The eighth. I was the eighth. Today, I have a little brother and a big brother left. The others died during the Pol Pot era. Many of them died.
[i] How old were you when you went to live in Phnom Penh?
[r] I was about 3 years old. I was about 3 years old when I went to live in Phnom Penh.
[i] Do you remember what life was like in Phnom Penh before?
[r] Life… I don’t know, I was little. Later, I didn’t have to work. I did… I did business. I sold jade. Pearls.
[i] You sold them?
[r] Yes.
[i] Over there?
[r] Yes, over there. You had to find them… In the end… Around 1969-1970, there was increasing insecurity in Phnom Penh, people were buying antiques to take abroad. I sold them some. People were looking to buy original Chinese antiques, they asked me to look for some. I bought jade, pearls and diamonds to sell them on. That’s what I did.
[i] How old were you when you started doing that?
[r] Ah… I was already in my twenties. 21 years old. When I was 10 or 11, my mother opened a grocery shop. A bit like Paris Store. I worked there until I was about 16. We went bankrupt. So I stopped working until I went back to work. I worked for two years and then I got married. After I got married, I started selling these things.
[i] Did you go to school?
[a] Yes! When I was at school, my father’s business went bankrupt. I had no choice, I had to go to work. I worked all day, and in the evening I went to school for two hours.
[i] What did you study?
[a] I studied Chinese. I didn’t learn Khmer. I learned Chinese.
[i] How many years did you go to school for?
[a] Only two years. I only went to school for two years. Two years. I worked during the day. I went to school in the evening. I took evening classes. After evening classes, I studied for six months. My father kept saying, ‘Girls don’t need to study much. What’s the point of studying?’ My father kept… He didn’t want me to study. But I liked studying. I worked and then went to school.
[i] How old were you when you got married?
[r] I studied until I was 16. I only studied for 2 years. I took evening classes for two years.
[i] Then you got married?
[r] Then I stopped.
[i] You said you got married, right?
[r] Yes, I got married. I worked, then I got married.
[i] How old were you?
[r] I think it was in… in 1966… In 1967. Er, before… the Olympic Stadium in Phnom Penh, it opened in what year? What year? I think it was in… 1967. Yes, I got married in 1967.
[i] And he was… a Teochew?
[r] Yes, a Teochew.
[i] Did you have children there?
[r] Yes… In Cambodia… I had four children. In Cambodia, I had four children.
[i] Boys or girls?
[r] Two boys, two girls. In 1975… In 1975, [my ex-husband] left for Hong Kong. And we couldn’t… In Cambodia, they started to expel us… We couldn’t see each other again. When Pol Pot was overthrown, I brought these four children. With my great-uncle’s child, there were five of us. With my mother and my grandmother. The whole family, there were about twenty of us. We set off together.
[i] When you walked…
[r] We no longer had a home. We slept in the street. The Khmer Rouge said, ‘Leave, you can come back in three days. There’s no need to bring your things.’ Then I met someone who lived in the same building as me, he was highly-ranked. He knew that the Khmer Rouge who came in were carrying a white flag, and that they were not good people. That they were going to expel us, if not, they were going to kill us. Pol Pot’s soldiers. And he said to me, ‘Bring your things, if you have any medication, take it. They are lying. They tell you that you’re leaving for three days, but they won’t let you come back. They won’t let you come back.’ And it was true, we left, we couldn’t come back, or stop. We walked until we were tired. We stopped. The children cried and drank water. We weren’t allowed to. We had to leave quickly.
[i] How long did you walk for?
[r] We just walked for two months to Vietnam. We couldn’t take grains of rice with us. No. On the road, we would ask… In the countryside… In the countryside, we would ask people for rice for the children and the elderly. We ate sweet potato leaves. My old mother wanted to eat sweet potato leaves. But young Khmer Rouge, Khmer Rouge soldiers, 13-14 years old, wanted to beat us with their weapons. They didn’t want us to take any. At that moment, I wasn’t afraid of dying. I took the weapon away from them and said, ‘How can you beat an elderly person? We don’t have the right to, OK. Why beat an elderly person? Isn’t that so?’ Every week, they gave us grains of rice. Each person was entitled to a pot. There were about ten of us, so how could that be enough? We couldn’t buy any more. We had money, but we didn’t spend it. We had brought a lot of money. A few million. We couldn’t spend it. Then, with my mother, with the extended family, with my brothers, we queued up to get grains of rice. There were lots of Chinese people, who went to get grains of rice. The Khmer Rouge didn’t want to. A couple of Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot’s soldiers, children, only 12-13 years old. They took sticks to beat the elderly. They said, ‘You are Chinese, you have no right.’ My mother kept pulling at my clothes, she was afraid they would kill us. Over there, if we weren’t docile, they killed us. I told those children to leave. I was very angry. We had nothing to eat. There were many children and elderly people. We had nothing to eat. I said, ‘Those grains of rice are from China, they are grains of white rice from China.’ I said it in Khmer, I said [in Khmer]… ‘It’s not your rice. China gave it to us Chinese. Why don’t you give it to us? And you beat us.’ They wanted to beat my mother. I had to defend her. Those children were mean. They didn’t go to school. At 12-13 years old, they had no education. They could hit you any time. They said it was their boss who told them to act that way. But I never met that boss. But at that time, it was still okay. For those who left later, in 1977, it was much worse. People couldn’t eat. On the road, I walked until… It’s like walking from the 12th arrondissement to the 13th arrondissement. There were Cambodians. I asked them if we could rest, and for some rice. I gave them things in exchange. I had medication. I had something like paracetamol. ‘I’ll give you this medication.’ They had no more medication. I gave them medication, they gave me grains of rice. They gave us chicken, so our children could eat. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have been able to eat. We hadn’t brought any clothes with us on the road. We only had the clothes we were wearing. We couldn’t take anything, they had said only three days. If it was too heavy, we would have thrown it away. I hadn’t brought anything at all. After walking to… the border, the water was up to my waist. Those four [the children]… One had a fever, one stepped on a nail, one cut his foot and had a fever. We had no medication. We had used up all our medication to feed the children. Then when the children were sick, we had no more medication. When we ate, the water rose. Then we met a Chinese family. Chinese people. When night fell, they said, ‘Tomorrow morning…’ The Khmer Rouge said, ‘Tomorrow, you will have to work in the fields.’ There were about twenty of us in our family. With my brothers, all together. They said, ‘Now, you have to register. Tomorrow morning, from 6 o’clock, you will have to go and work in the fields. Planting rice.’ I thought to myself, ‘Gosh, I can’t do that.’ My older brother, my younger brother, there were only a few men. The elderly, the children, there were eleven children. How could we plant rice? Then I met this family. They were part of the ‘Ancient People’, they couldn’t leave. They asked me, ‘Do you want to go to Vietnam? It’s about 80 kilometres from here. But the Khmer Rouge mustn’t know that I showed you the way to leave. You have to leave very early, at 5 o’clock. The Khmer Rouge will force you to work at 6 o’clock. You have to leave at 5 o’clock. But you must give me all your things, your bike, etc. And do you have any gold?’ I said, “OK. I’ll give you whatever you want. But can you show me the way to Vietnam?” He said, ’OK. Tomorrow, let’s go. When you see that you have to turn left or right, you’ll see a branch that I put there as a marker. You’ll go in that direction.’ We walked until the water came up to here. The children couldn’t go any further. I carried one, then another. I said, “This is tiring!” I said, ’We won’t make it. It would be better if we all jumped into the water to die with a rope!’ It was too hard! My mother, etc., forced herself to eat. Like the second one, “Mum, I can’t eat congee.” But we didn’t have anything to cook rice with. So he ate a little rice and a little congee. But he didn’t like eating congee, he liked rice. ‘I don’t like congee, can I have as much rice as I want?’ What could I do? So I went to get some sweet potatoes, in another village, in a house in the countryside, there are also some in France. Like in the countryside, they planted a lot of things there. I went there to ask the owner if she could give some to me, for my children and my elderly mother. I gave her some medicine, some glutamate, and she said to me, ‘I’ll only give you three kilos.’ But I dug up some cassava, there was six kilos of it. She shouted at me, saying, ‘Hey, Chinese girl [in Khmer], I’ll give you three kilos, you take a whole plant.’ I said, ‘Please give it to me, I have a big family.’ [in Khmer] I always spoke nicely to people. On the road, that’s how I asked for food. We took what there was. We collected what we could find to use. We couldn’t buy or sell. We had money, but we couldn’t spend it. There was a group of Khmer Rouge, like in a police station in France, a police station. It was time to eat, they rang the bell. There were about ten of them eating, they had a huge pot of rice. They had collected a large quantity of bananas for themselves. And they had cooked a large dish of vegetables. When I heard the bell, I ran towards them, alone. I took a large bowl. I said, ‘Master, comrade, could you give me some?’ [in Khmer] He said, ‘Go and get some.’ [in Khmer] He didn’t know that I was carrying a large bowl on my back, so I went to get some. He shouted at me, he said, ‘Why are you taking so much?’ I said, ‘Have mercy, I have five children, there are two old women, who have nothing to eat. There are eight of us. Please give me a little more.’ He was eating, he told me to go and help myself. So I took a little more. On the road, needless to say, it was hard. On the road, we had no water to drink. There were corpses next to us, in the forest, at the foot of the trees. I found water to drink, then I saw hair. There were bones, the smell was horrible! On the road, we slept like that. And at night, there were military vehicles passing by, we slept outside, without lighting. There was no lighting. We just walked. All day long. At night, there was the moon. On the 15th of the month, we didn’t walk anymore, because the moon gave us more light. From the morning, we walked. We walked ten kilometres a day. Ten kilometres was too much for the children.
[i] How old were they?
[r] The youngest was 8 months to 1 year old. The oldest, my great-brother’s son, was 11 years old. My eldest was 6 years old. The second was 5 years old. The third was 4 years old, the last one was 8 months old. On the road, we asked for food. When we arrived in Vietnam, we were very happy. We gave away all our belongings to be able to pass. We passed into Vietnam. In Vietnam, they knew we were refugees. They took us to a camp. In one of the villages, there were Teochew. There were communities, and there were… how can I put it? It’s like the associations of today. In 1975, Cambodia became communist after Vietnam. Vietnam was also communist. Northern Vietnam was also communist. We entered through there. My sister-in-law was Chinese from Vietnam. She arrived as a child in Phnom Penh. To go to Vietnam, they asked us about the Khmer Rouge, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘To Vietnam.’ You had to be able to speak Vietnamese. On the boat, no one could speak it. When I was little, I was a trader. I could speak Vietnamese and Khmer. He said to me, ‘Where do you want to go?’ I said, ‘I’m going to Vietnam.’ He saw that I spoke Vietnamese, I said I was going to look for my father. I lied, I said my father was there. ‘And who is this lady?’ I said that she was my mother. ‘And your mother is there?’ I said, ‘My father married a Vietnamese woman, I have to go there.’ Otherwise, they wouldn’t have let me go, they would have killed me. Out of the whole boat, nobody could speak Vietnamese, only my sister-in-law and I could. Then, when we got off the boat, I met a Khmer Rouge. My brother was limping. He’s been limping since he was born. He doesn’t have the strength to walk. I had to help him. I hired an ox cart for the two elderly people, the five children and my sister-in-law’s children, making nine of them. So that they could get on the ox cart. Otherwise, they couldn’t walk. They couldn’t walk. As soon as my brother started to walk, he would fall. He would hold on to me. This Khmer Rouge had asked me, ‘Where are you going?’ I said I was going further, like from here [the 12th] to go to the 13th. I lied to him, that my family lived there. So he let me pass. When we got off the boat, he was there, waiting for us. He said, ‘A while ago, you said you were going to work in the fields, now why are you looking for the road to Vietnam? Go back, you’re not allowed to go there!’ I had already given him some money, he wanted me to give him more, but I didn’t have any more. I had given some to some Chinese people, a family, who helped us to leave. And the Khmer Rouge came and made a fuss. Then we arrived in Vietnam at 10 p.m. We went to spend the night in a temple. In a temple. Like a Chinese temple. There was a big one. There was a school, and on that side, a temple. We spent the night there. The next day, we took the bus to continue on our way. To go to where my sister-in-law comes from. There were a lot of Chinese people there. In Kak Lang. It was a 500-kilometre drive. We had no choice, we ended up in Kak Lang. I was ill because we drank the water without thinking. Five or six of us went to the hospital. My sister-in-law’s daughter died. Some kind Chinese people took us to a refugee camp. At the time, disabled soldiers lived there, in the jungle. They put us up in small houses. There were six families in all. One family had a house. I was with my mother and five children. I had the papers. Originally, I had made papers to go to Hong Kong. My second older brother was in Hong Kong. And my ex-husband had first gone there. We were supposed to go, but Pol Pot arrived and we couldn’t leave. We couldn’t leave but I had the papers, and a family record book. I said to myself, now we each had a house and a portion of rice.
[i] Was that in Vietnam?
[r] Yes, in Vietnam. In Vietnam, I met a… a Chinese communist. He said, ‘No…’ The Vietnamese communists were better than the Khmer communists. They had humanity, if they took your money, they didn’t bother you. He said, ‘Now…’ They gave us two cents a day. A pot of rice grains, flour, for us to cook. There was nothing at all in the jungle. There was nothing. I said, ‘How can we do that?’ He said, ‘Now, I’m going to take you 1,000 kilometres away to work in the fields by the sea.’ In all, there were 20 families who had to go there. We were six families, about twenty people. I said… They were all Teochew. Like a community. I said… My little brother was limping. There was my older brother, and my little brother. There was also my neighbour, a young man, with his mother. And someone from Battambang. She was a family member, do you know her? She sold fried noodles at the Battambang market. [name of a friend] knows her. We were together. He said, ‘Now, the Chinese from Vietnam have to take you to a place near Kampot, by the sea, 1,000 kilometres away. There are no houses there, you have to build them yourself. They will give you 6 bamboo stalks. To build your houses. Do you agree?’ I said, “I don’t agree.” I told my brothers to step aside. I was all alone without a husband, there was my mother and five children. I told them, ’Now, I don’t want your money or the pot of rice. I’ll manage on my own. I fled Cambodia with great difficulty. When I arrived in Vietnam, you wanted to send me to work in the fields. I was already working in the fields in Cambodia. What matters to me is finding my husband and making sure my children are safe. I don’t want you, the community, to give me this money. I don’t want it. I’ll manage on my own. They said, ‘I’ve already spoken to the people there, tomorrow at 7 o’clock we’ll come and get you, to take the whole family there.’ I told my brothers to leave during the night. I was alone talking [to the people from the community], four of them came. Four came. I said, ‘Okay, tomorrow… Starting tonight, I will look for a house myself.’ I found some old friends, who helped me. My mother still had some money. I said, “Now, I don’t need any help from the Chinese community. I will manage on my own.” ’Now, we want to help you. If you go, we will be happy.’ I was a single woman with five children and two elderly people. How could I build a house? They said, ‘You have an older brother and a younger brother to help you.’ I said, ‘Everyone has their family, no one can help me.’ I didn’t agree with them. That night, I left. I left and rented a very dark place to live. I cooked things to sell. I made fermented cabbage to sell. To sell to the Chinese, and to feed the children. Then to Vietnam… We hadn’t even gone to Saigon yet. It was in… It was lucky, my mother had kept some Hong Kong money. And I remembered the address of my older brother in Hong Kong. To Connaught Road West. At the time, I didn’t speak Vietnamese very well. I went to Saigon. I phoned my older brother, and I was able to find my husband. So I phoned my older brother, but the translation from English to Vietnamese wasn’t good. The first time, I couldn’t reach him. The second time, I managed to find my older brother. My brother heard from me at that point. I went to live in Saigon. Then I was taken to a camp again. Because on my papers, I was a refugee. So I had to go to a shelter. There was nothing in the shelter, it was the jungle! At the time, the Vietnamese communist army was planting landmines. They planted landmines. They exploded and my nephew died. In Vietnam. We chopped wood to make charcoal. It wasn’t right to live like that. We didn’t go out, we stayed locked up in the camp. It was horrible! We had to travel 300 kilometres to buy food and feed the children. We had no choice, we went back to Saigon. In Saigon, we looked for houses that had been destroyed during the war by aerial bombardment. We went to live in them. I waited to get the papers, I asked for papers, and then we were able to come to France. With these papers, the Vietnamese government let us go. They let us go. As I was with too many children and elderly people, they allowed us to leave. But to enter France, we had no authorisation. [My ex-husband] didn’t dare say he was with someone else. He didn’t give any news. I kept sending him letters. He didn’t reply. [My husband] spoke French, he helped people with their papers in Vietnam. I also knew a lot of people. Chinese people from Vietnam. So they asked me to help them get papers so that they could have Cambodian nationality, so that they could leave the country. [My husband] knew… He helped these people flee the country. In Vietnam, I was able to take that route and meet old friends. They said to me, ‘It doesn’t make sense. In Phnom Penh, you were in business. You don’t have to stay in the jungle, cutting wood and selling coal. It’s pointless. I wanted to live in Saigon, to wait for news and sort out my papers. When I arrived in Vietnam and Saigon, my brothers had also come. I looked for accommodation for all of us. In Vietnam, we lived next to the police station. They also came to bother us! They said that living in a studio flat, brand new, was crazy! We rented a shop at the market to trade. My brother had a limp. He had been making clothes since he was a child. My brother worked at the market, but he wasn’t allowed to sleep there. Just like today, in the shops, you’re not allowed to sleep there. At night, he had no choice. Up there, there were already eleven of us living. My brother and I lived crammed into a studio, in my name. We were waiting to sort out our papers. With my name and my brother’s, we rented a shop at the market so that my brother could make clothes. There were five of them in his family. They slept there at night. The police came to hassle us, saying they didn’t have the right to sleep there. They looked at the name on the papers, it was my name. So they came to get me at my place. The policeman said, ‘Is that your name? Is that your shop downstairs?’ I said, ‘Yes, why?’ He said, ‘Now, your brother doesn’t have the right to live there. Normally, you don’t have the right to live like that, eleven of you.’ At night, we slept like that. We couldn’t turn around. How could eleven of us sleep? I said, ‘Okay.’ In Vietnamese. I said [in Vietnamese], ‘If you don’t let my brother sleep there, we’ll all go and sleep at the police station.’ I’ll go to the police station tonight to sleep. He had no choice. I went to see the boss. The policeman took me to the police station. He said to his boss, ‘I brought her here.’ He said, ‘Can’t you leave and find somewhere to stay?’ I said, ‘Yes, I’m a refugee, where can I go?’ I had a hard time fleeing to Vietnam, there’s no reason for me to go back to Cambodia. Now, if you say that I don’t have the right to live there, tonight I’ll take my children and my nephews to the police station to sleep. What do you say to that?’ The police station is big. Upstairs, on the second floor, on the third, there is room. They had no choice and let us go. They gave up. When you go somewhere, if you’re not bold, you won’t get there. You have no choice. That’s the way it is. What can you do? Right? My brother had fled from the countryside, one of his children was killed by a bomb. He had gone to cut wood, he stepped on a mine and it exploded. His three children were killed by the explosion. We had to leave quickly. We didn’t die in Cambodia, and when we arrived in Vietnam we… In Vietnam, this happened… Then, four years later, [my husband] came. Before that, he worked for an insurance company. I asked him to meet some friends who couldn’t manage to leave the country. In Vietnam, I was already helping people to leave the country. [My husband] arrived in 1978, I arrived in 1979. I also helped people to leave the country, to get plane tickets. [My husband] when he wanted to leave… I knew customers, he knew people who worked for Air France. I had no choice, I had to do that [to earn money]. Doing business on the street is like now, in the 13th, if the police arrive, what do you do? You don’t have the strength to leave. I sold clothes. The police would arrive, I didn’t have the strength to leave. I had no choice. So I helped people get papers. When I did that, I was asked… They [people in the government] told me… that they didn’t take money because they were communists. They didn’t take money. I said to them, ‘Excuse me,’ in Vietnamese. [In Vietnamese], ‘Excuse me.’ I said, ‘Could you help me? If you can help me…’ But I knew what to do, I gave him some money. He said, ‘We’re communists, we don’t take money.’ He said that. You know. But he still took it secretly. I said to him, ‘Excuse me, could you help this family, it’s my family? Could you help me?’ I had no choice, to earn money. To feed my children, to feed my mother, I had to do that. I forced myself to sell things on the street with my older brother for another six months. The police kept bothering us. I had no choice, I was selling fabric. But they arrested me anyway. They would arrest me and measure with a tape measure to see how many metres it was. I took a bag of fabric and gave it to someone near the market. When people went abroad and wanted to buy fabric, I didn’t have a tape measure, I used my hand to count, like this, it was 20 centimetres. I sold fabric. In Vietnam, I did everything I could do. For four years, before coming to France. When [my husband] arrived in France, he called the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to ask, ‘Why doesn’t this family have their papers yet?’ They said, ‘Some papers are still missing.’ [My ex-husband] had not taken the steps for us to come. [My husband] therefore wrote me a letter saying, ‘I have just met your husband, he has not taken the steps for you to come. Now, do you want me to help you?’ I said, ‘Yes, you have to help me.’ We already had a relationship in Vietnam. I said I couldn’t decide. I had my four children. Didn’t I? He didn’t have a family, I didn’t know what to do. I had no choice. In Vietnam, I lived next to the police station. We ate meat with water spinach on top [to hide the meat]. My old mother always wanted to eat well. And my children, the eldest was 8 or 9 years old, he liked to eat meat, he didn’t want to eat only vegetables. The police always came to bother us, they would ask my children, ‘What does your mother do?’ They would reply, ‘I don’t know what my mother does.’ I travelled around on my motorbike, going here and there. It was after four years that I arrived in France.
[i] How did you manage to come to France?
[r] How?
[i] How were you able to come?
[r] I came by plane. By plane.
[i] In 1979?
[a] Yes, in 1979. In September 1979.
[i] How many of you came?
[a] I came with my family and my mother. With five children, there were eight of us. Eight of us came.
[i] And which city did you first arrive in?
[r] When I arrived, I had to take my children to the shelter. We were told that they would help us at the shelter. I was angry with my ex-husband, I didn’t have any papers yet. He wanted me to go with him, I said no. I said, ‘Stop. We have to sort this out first. Before we decide.’ A friend wanted to take me to the shelter, but I said no, not right away. My children first went to live with their father. I went to live alone with my friend, whose name is [friend’s name]. I was the one who got his wife’s papers. I lived with them.
[i] In Paris?
[r] I first lived with my friends, then I applied [for social housing] at the town hall. Town halls in France are good. They helped us, they saw from the papers that there were five children, two elderly people. In all, there were eight of us. So they gave me this accommodation. I still live there now. It’s the Catholic community. The Catholic community of the 12th arrondissement. Eight families helped us. We could buy whatever furniture we wanted. At the time, I didn’t need much. They took us to the department store, La Samaritaine. We could take as much as we wanted. But we didn’t dare take anything. They saw my situation. [My ex-husband] no longer showed his face because he was with another woman. I had no choice. I had five children and two elderly people, so they allocated this accommodation to me.
[i] This one?
[r] Yes. I still live there now.
[i] You lived here with your children?
[r] Yes, they lived here until they grew up. Now they’re grown up. One of them went to the United States. One went to Guadeloupe. Now there are two boys left here. The youngest lives in Vitry. The eldest, today… It’s possible that when he was little, he was a bit… now he has an illness, he has a… What’s it called? He’s depressed. He wonders why his father abandoned him when he was little. He’s always… He gets angry all the time. He has three children. His wife is French. He has three children. He can’t move on. The youngest has moved on, but he says, ‘Why do the others have a father and we don’t?’ He doesn’t even know his father. I brought all four of them to France from Vietnam.
[i] And where did their father go?
[r] He left with another woman. And he didn’t look after them, he didn’t come to see them. He didn’t take responsibility for the children. When you’re a man, you can stop wanting a woman and get married again, but the children are your responsibility, you have to come and see them. All four went to school here, but he didn’t come to see them. Now the children don’t recognise him as their father. He says that I’m the one who told them not to recognise him, but it’s he who doesn’t know how to behave like a father, like an adult. Isn’t that right? Even old friends, we go to visit them, we go to see them. He didn’t look after him. He only listened to his new wife. He didn’t look after his children at all. The eldest couldn’t get on with things. As a result, he wasn’t good at school. He thought about it too much. Me and [my husband] opened a restaurant in the suburbs. So my mother brought him up. My mother brought him up. At 16, he wasn’t good at school because he got too depressed. He gave up. He couldn’t continue his studies. The three little ones managed to study.
[i] What did they study?
[r] They studied in French, not in Chinese. Now the second one is a pharmacist in Guadeloupe. Now another [of the children] is at school, he teaches French. He is a French teacher. Now the government has given him a scholarship to study to be a psychologist. He has got his baccalaureate. He would like to write a book about my story. About the escape, how unhappy he was, how his father abandoned him. The other day, he went to another region, with a teacher and eleven students. They wanted to know about the history of Cambodia. He told them about it. The other day, we went to the mountains together. He was writing things down. He asked me, because he was too small, he was 4 or 5 at the time. He doesn’t remember. He says that he is able to put things into perspective, but his older brother can’t, that’s why he has this illness. He still wonders why his father abandoned him. That’s how it is.
[i] And in France, when you arrived, did you work?
[r] Yes! When I arrived, I worked in a restaurant. I worked there for a while, then I quit. Then I worked in clothing manufacturing. For [name of boss]. In Crimée. I worked in clothing manufacturing. I sewed buttons, I did sewing. I distributed the work. And [name of a friend] didn’t know how to do it, I felt sorry for her. When I gave her work, she made mistakes. I didn’t say anything. I got on well with her. That friend. I was sewing, it gave me a terrible headache. You had to know when to go left or right, to work fast. I was very slow. I had to wait for my daughter to come back, so she could help me. I had no choice. I preferred the restaurant business. For work.
[i] Which restaurant?
[r] The first one… was in Belleville. ‘Le Grand Viêtnam’.
[i] And what did you do? Did you cook?
[r] It was Vietnamese cuisine, I knew how to cook. I cooked Vietnamese food. After that, after Belleville, I opened a clothing company. In Sentier.
[i] In Le Sentier?
[r] Yes. For about a year. Almost two years, then I stopped. Then I worked in catering again. We were looking for a cook to make Vietnamese and Thai food, and who knew Asian cuisine. For the evening. At [Asian restaurant in Opéra]. I worked there for 9 years. Then, after 9 years, I stopped. Then I took care of my mother, who was old. I stopped. Then the restaurant ‘New Nioullaville’, in Belleville, offered me a job there again. I worked there again for a few years. Then I stopped working.
[i] How long has it been since you stopped working?
[r] I haven’t worked for 5 years now. When I was 65, in the 13th, they kept asking me to work. What’s his name… At the ‘Chine Masséna’. He’s from Battambang, do you know him? You don’t know him? The boss of the ‘Chine Masséna’. [The former boss] is dead. His wife liked me. She wanted me to do Vietnamese cooking. She said to me, ‘You’re not old. You can work. You know how to cook all the dishes. The head chef has just left, can you help us?’ I said, ‘I can’t. I’m 65, I’m already retired. I couldn’t declare it.’ She said, “I don’t believe you.” I showed her my papers, I said, “I’m 65, I can’t work.” My children also said to me, ’Mum, you’re ill, you have diabetes, you never know if something will happen. What’s the point of working?’ Isn’t that right? It’s pointless. Some people said, “Don’t your children care about you? At your age, are you going to go to work?” So I didn’t go to work.
[i] And do you think that living conditions are good in France?
[r] Very good.
[i] Do you like it?
[r] Yes, life in France is good. The social system is excellent. As soon as we have difficulties, we are taken care of. Now I live in France, I wouldn’t be able to live anywhere else. Even if I could live in Cambodia, I wouldn’t be used to it anymore. My daughter lives in Guadeloupe, in a big house, it’s French territory. But I’m not used to it. There are a lot of Asians here. It’s practical for getting around. My daughter also tells me to go and see her in the United States, but I don’t want to go. I don’t want to go. I’ve lived here for a long time, I’m used to it.
[i] And do you like life in Paris?
[f] Yes! I love Paris. And my children grew up here. So I love Paris, I couldn’t live anywhere else. I’m old now. Aren’t I?
[i] And where do you like to go for walks in Paris?
[f] I take part in holidays organised by the town hall for senior citizens, it’s great.
[i] Where do you go on holiday?
[r] The other day, they took us to Greece and Italy.
[i] Is that a trip for senior citizens?
[r] Yes, there was a whole group of us. In April, you have to register at the town hall. It’s for senior citizens.
[i] You currently live in the 12th arrondissement. Do you like it there?
[r] Yes, very much. I don’t want to leave. The social system in France is very good.
[i] Do you like going to the 13th arrondissement? Or Belleville?
[r] Belleville? Yes. But there’s not much there.
[i] And the 13th?
[r] I often go to the 13th, it’s nearby. Belleville is a bit further away.
[i] And what do you do in the 13th?
[r] I do my shopping, sometimes I see my friends, I have a coffee, I chat with my friends, then I go home. Nothing special. Sometimes I go to Vitry to see my youngest son’s baby. From time to time.
[i] How many grandchildren do you have? I have nine. Nine grandchildren. They are all grown up. The oldest is 21. My grandson in the United States has passed his baccalaureate. He works in IT.
[i] Do your grandchildren live in Paris?
[r] He sometimes comes on holiday.
[i] And your other grandchildren, do they live in Paris?
[r] The others, yes. My eldest son has three children. My youngest son has two children, so that makes five. One of them came from Guadeloupe to study in Bordeaux.
[i] And have you ever told them your story?
[r] What do you mean?
[i] Have you told them how you arrived?
[r] No.
[i] Have they asked you?
[r] I don’t speak French. They don’t speak Chinese. Their mother has to translate. I’ve told my children, they know. My little sister left in 1977. We left in 1975. In 1976, my little sister, halfway there, with my older brother… My older brother lived in Pailin, in Battambang, with my older sister. My older sister lived in Poipet. She wanted to go to Phnom Penh to find my mother. But halfway there, she couldn’t go on. We were in Vietnam, she didn’t find us. She lived under Pol Pot. For four years. My older brother, the third, and the fifth, died. There were five of them in her family. They had nothing to eat. They didn’t have the strength to work, they were killed. They said to my little sister, ‘Young girl, why don’t you have the strength to work?’ They dug a hole and buried her alive. That’s why, at the time, when they asked me, in France they asked me, ‘Do you want to go back to Cambodia?’ I said, ‘I don’t want to.’ In Vietnam, they also asked me, ‘Why do you want to go to France? Not Cambodia?’ I said, ‘I left Cambodia, the Khmer Rouge, I don’t want to go back to Cambodia. I hope to be able to go to France.’
[i] Did you take French lessons in France?
[r] Yes, but I didn’t succeed. I didn’t manage to learn. The town hall had put us in touch with five families. They gave me lessons once a week. But at the time, I often had a headache. I was nervous. I had to look up the route with the metro map. I went to people’s houses, but I didn’t speak French. I always answered in Vietnamese. The lady would say to me, ‘I don’t understand… What language are you speaking?’ I would always reply in Vietnamese, I didn’t speak French. And I didn’t go… I didn’t… Now, there are lots of foreigners who come, there are schools to learn French. Before, that wasn’t the case, we went to families who taught us French… I didn’t go there. When I arrived, I had my family to look after, I had to work. I couldn’t take classes. It didn’t fit in. It’s good that in France, the state helps us. When my children were little, we were entitled to benefits. I had to work to be able to eat. That’s it. For children, it’s good in France. Education is free. They help us.
[i] And now that you are retired, what do you do on a daily basis?
[r] Now? What do I do on a daily basis? I go to Vitry, I go to see the baby. Then I come back here in the evening, I cook, that’s it. Sometimes I go for a walk in the shops, to see… Now I’m old, what can I do? If I had work, I would work. If my hands didn’t hurt, I would work. Because my pension is too small. It’s not enough. [My husband] is involved in an association, which is good, to pass the time. Because when you stay at home, you have no energy.
[i] And your children, do they all have French nationality?
[r] Yes, all of them. They are French.
[i] And you, have you applied?
[r] I speak a little, but not much. My grandchildren say to me, ‘Grandma, why don’t you learn French?’ I say to them, ‘Why don’t you learn Chinese, and you speak to me in Chinese?’
[i] And do you speak to them in Teochew?
[r] No, in French. Here and there. To tell them more, I have no choice but to ask their mother to translate. That’s it. My daughter, who lives in the United States, speaks French and English. She also speaks… She also speaks Khmer and Vietnamese. She’s intelligent. She also speaks a little Chinese.
[i] And when you came to France, did you have any more children?
[r] What?
[i] In total, you have four children?
[r] Yes. Today? I have four children in Paris. One is in the United States, one in Guadeloupe, that makes six. There’s my older brother, and my younger brother.
[i] And your other brothers and sisters?
[r] From time to time, we eat together for the holidays. When there are holidays. We eat together. My older brother left with me and my younger brother. I arrived first. I think my older brother arrived in 1980. I arrived in 1979. My younger brother is his brother-in-law, he brought him to Austria. Two years later, he came here.
[i] Does he also live in Paris?
[r] He lives in… Bobigny.
[i] Bobigny?
[r] My older brother lives in Poissy. He lives in Poissy.
[i] Are you going to pray at the temple?
[r] What?
[i] Are you going to pray at the temple?
[r] I don’t understand.
[i] Are you going to pray at the temple?
[r] Yes. I pray to Buddha. I also go to the Catholic church. Wherever I go, I don’t just pray to Buddha. My eldest daughter, over there, she’s Catholic. The Catholic community over there celebrates three festivals a year. With the money we collect from selling tickets for a buffet… There was a ticket sale… The money collected was sent to an orphanage in Africa. My daughter, when she was studying, when she wasn’t yet a teacher, she looked after the elderly and orphans. There was a couple who didn’t have children, who had money, they helped within the community they organised four parties a year, they sent money to Africa to the poorest countries, to orphanages. To build schools and buy books. And the couple were about to leave, because one of them had cancer. They asked my daughter, ‘When I’m no longer here, will you be able to organise these parties?’ To take this money, to save these children, to buy books, cakes, notebooks. My daughter said, ‘Okay’. One year, a few years ago, I had been there, my daughter had sold tickets. Everyone had bought American dishes, takeaway food to put on the buffet. At the time, I was working at the ‘New Nioulaville’. My daughter said, ‘My mum is here, she can cook original dishes for you. They were happy. I cooked Vietnamese and Thai dishes. There were about a hundred people from this Catholic community, and they all came to buy tickets. My daughter had sent them a letter. To sell her tickets. That year, I went and took part. Eight of the older people helped me. I was the only one doing everything. I taught them what to do. With the tickets sold, we raised about 10,000 dollars. 10,000 dollars. Usually it was only a few thousand dollars. We raised almost 12,000 dollars. We sent this money to the orphanage in Africa. There, the person in charge of receiving donations had an article published in the newspaper. To say that this person, this State of the United States, with my daughter’s name and my name, that it was the mother who came from France… They particularly thanked me for having cooked these dishes to help these children. All these children were able to go to school and find work after leaving school. In this orphanage, they were able to eat and study. I did it from the heart. You asked me if I am Catholic or Buddhist. Both. I don’t have a single religion. That’s it.
[i] And… Do you ever think about things from the past?
[r] I don’t want to think about it. I don’t dare to think about it. I think about what I’m going to do the next day, when I can go on holiday. Not about things in the past. Right? I fled the Pol Pot regime. I survived several times. The other day, I met someone in the street during the Moon Festival. I was eating with my children. There were people driving a car, I don’t know where they came from, they said to me, ‘Madam, hello.’ I said, ‘Yes, hello.’ The driver took out a map, and pretended to ask for directions. He said, ‘Do you know where the pharmacy open seven days a week is? On Saturdays and Sundays. I’m a kind-hearted person, I said, ‘The pharmacy open seven days a week is in Nation, and in Daumesnil. I told him that. He said to me, “I have rings to offer you.” I said, “No, why would I accept?” He said to me, ’You’re kind.’ In fact, they wanted to bundle me into their car. A woman got out of the back. She wanted to take me with her. Just then, a French couple arrived. They asked what was going on. They saw that I was shouting. I didn’t want to take their rings. Why would I take them? They said, ‘We’ll swap you.’ I said, ‘No!’ A French couple arrived, and then they left. There’s all sorts, as you can see. Isn’t that right?
[i] Did you have many problems?
[r] Yes, I’ve encountered a lot of problems. The other day, I went to the 13th arrondissement and met a Chinese woman. She asked me, ‘Madam, do you know how to speak Mandarin? I’m having problems. I’m looking for a doctor [in Mandarin]. I said, ’Today is Saturday, I don’t know if there are any.’ She said, ‘There’s one called Wang.’ I knew it was weird, so I said, ‘Go straight ahead.’ She said, ‘Can you take me there?’ I was waiting for my husband to get the car. I said, ‘It’s not possible, my husband is getting the car.’ Another person arrived and said, ‘My husband is at home, he is very ill, he has a stomach ache.’ I said, ‘Can you take your husband to the hospital?’ She lied to me so that I would go with her. All my life, I have encountered many problems.
[i] There were others?
[r] No, there weren’t many in France, but many in Vietnam and Cambodia. You know, when I went to the United States. I didn’t have French nationality. I had to declare that I was going with a group. With a group. I didn’t declare that I was going to see my daughter. She had been there for 10 years and had just had a baby. For the trip, [my husband] declared that I was with a group to get a visa easily. So I declared that I was with a group. When I arrived in the United States, I couldn’t speak French or English. At the airport, they said to me, ‘You’re with a group’, they didn’t know which group. There were groups of French people of about ten people. I was alone. They said, ‘Madam, wait. There’s a problem.’ They said, ‘You said you were coming in a group, where are the people in your group?’ They detained me there. They blocked me and at the immigration service, they asked me questions. They asked me, ‘Why did you say you were in a group, when you are alone? Why did you come?’ I didn’t dare say that I had come to see my daughter. I had already been there three times. Four times. I had no choice. They held me up for an hour. They checked my luggage. My stepson is American. He was waiting for me outside. The immigration service asked me, ‘What languages do you speak?’ I said I spoke Mandarin and Cantonese. They called someone to translate into French. I said that I didn’t speak French very well. They said that there was no choice, because the person who spoke Mandarin had already left. They searched the computer, they saw that I had a visa, that everything was in order. They said, ‘Why does it say that you are in a group? And you are alone? Who are you? Where is your group?’ I said I didn’t know. “But who are you here in the United States to see?” I had no choice, I said I came to see my daughter. “Where is your daughter’s address?” “I don’t have it, you took all my stuff.” They said, ’What documents do you have?’ They wanted my daughter’s phone number. I wrote to them. They called her, they saw that I had family here. My stepson waited outside for an hour. He said, ‘My stepmother is here, she doesn’t speak English.’ They said that I had said I was coming in a group, that they wanted to know. Because at the time, there had been the attacks. They were afraid. But I wasn’t afraid. I wasn’t afraid. When I arrived in France, I couldn’t speak French, but I wasn’t afraid. At the time, when I was working at [Asian restaurant in Opéra], after three days, the clothing company, I had closed it. But I hadn’t yet received unemployment benefit. The restaurant was looking for a cook. I had to go and work there quickly. But I hadn’t yet received unemployment benefit. I had received a letter saying that I would soon receive it. And the restaurant owner said, I met him and he said, ‘You can come and work, but you have to declare it.’ This is the city centre, he was afraid of the checks. I said, ‘Is it possible to declare it in two days, I’m waiting to get my unemployment, before you declare it. About 10,000 francs. Some of the people who worked in this restaurant, two Chinese who had just arrived, didn’t have papers. The boss was arrested. I heard the news from people who came there to buy rotisserie meat. The boss was arrested because the employees didn’t have papers, he was taken to the police station. In fact, the translator was a Chinese [from mainland China]. A real Chinese, who spoke French. He came to the second restaurant, I was working in the second restaurant. This story happened in the first restaurant. The boss had spent a night in prison. He still hadn’t been released. They found out that he had a second restaurant. So they came to the restaurant where I was working. I thought I was registered. The employees had to be registered in a notebook. I had only been working there for three days. The boss hadn’t validated it yet. I said, ‘No problem, try my dishes first.’ I didn’t have time to bring my papers yet. My papers were in my handbag, I hadn’t given them yet, it wasn’t the boss’s fault, it was my fault. The labour inspector came into the kitchen. With five people who came down. There was one upstairs, a woman who could speak Mandarin and French. Then four people came down. To check the papers, I gave them mine. I asked what was going on. She came up with my papers, to see if I was registered in the book. The other employees had been working there for a long time. They were registered, but not me. The inspector told me to go upstairs. There was a telephone downstairs. I asked, ‘Please, can I call my husband? My husband speaks French. Why do I have to go upstairs?’ I knew they were arresting people. They had arrested people in the other restaurant. I asked if I could call my husband because he spoke French. They said, ‘It doesn’t matter’ and told me to come upstairs. Upstairs, they didn’t speak French, they spoke Chinese. They asked me what languages I spoke. I said, ‘Vietnamese, Cambodian, Cantonese.’ They told me to come upstairs. So I got in. They asked me questions, and they told me to get in their car to go to the Cité. There were six inspectors, with this woman, they took me to the Cité. To compare our stories. They first asked me, ‘Madam, why did I arrest you [in Mandarin]? Now I’ve arrested you, why aren’t you afraid?’ I said, ‘Why should I be afraid? First of all, I haven’t killed anyone. Secondly, I haven’t done anything wrong. I’ve just tried a new job.’ ‘Did the boss tell you not to report it?’ I said, ‘It wasn’t the boss.’ The boss was already one strike away from dismissal. I answered correctly. At the Cité, I didn’t know that the boss was in the next room. I was in another room. The inspector typed on his computer, he asked when I arrived etc…. Another person also came to question me. To see if I answered the same thing. This woman translated. She said to me, ‘Aren’t you afraid?’ [in Mandarin] I said, ‘No, I have nothing to fear. I don’t work on the black market. I have nothing to fear. Did the boss tell you to do that?’ I said, ‘No. I’ve only been here for three days. My papers are in my handbag, I didn’t give them to the boss. The boss didn’t have time.’ That night, they released the boss. The restaurant owner was very happy. He invited me to the old restaurant to meet him and tell me that I had responded well. ’Otherwise, I would have spent another night at the police station.’ [in Cantonese] Otherwise we would have been fined. The fine would have been 150,000 francs per person. That’s how it was. That’s why, when you behave well, you don’t lose out. You shouldn’t betray people. It’s true that I didn’t want to declare it right away, I was waiting to receive my unemployment benefit. The inspector asked if the boss had told me not to declare myself. I said, ‘No. I decided to do it. First of all, I had just registered as unemployed, and secondly, I had only been working there for three days. Even if I wanted to report it, it was already too late. He said, ‘Why isn’t your name in the register?’ So they took me to the Cité, to the sixth floor. My French isn’t good, but I dare to negotiate with people. I was able to put forward these arguments. That’s it.
[i] And when did this story happen?
[r] About 10 years ago. About 10 years ago.
[i] And when was the happiest moment of your life?
[r] I’m happiest now. I’m old. I’ve been happy for seven years. I retired at 63. I have six children. I retired at 63. Normally, it would have been at 65. They said, with my pay slips, that I had worked enough, and that I had six children. They granted me retirement at 63. No need to be unemployed. It allows me to live properly. I can eat in the canteen for three euros. For a coffee, it’s only one euro. What country is as good as France? Look at Cambodia, they don’t have the same rights.
[i] And your two youngest children, how old are they? What do they do for a living?
[r] In Paris? The third daughter, she works, I believe, at Hermès. At Hermès, the handbags. The little one, I don’t know, you’ll have to ask my husband, I don’t know, he works on the computer. His boss sends him to this or that place, his boss sent him to Marseille. In a shop, he speaks English, French. To negotiate business deals. But I don’t know. I don’t know what he does. That’s all. And the third one works in an office, at Hermès, which makes handbags. In this company. The little one is always on the move. Sometimes he goes to Lille. His boss is in Lille. He has lots of shops everywhere. He speaks English. He used to live here, but he didn’t like his job, so he went to live in Canada for a year. It was too cold in Canada, he was too tired, so he came back to France. I don’t know what he studied. I don’t speak French, even if he explained it to me, I wouldn’t understand. But what they do for a living is not bad. That’s how it is.
[i] And at the moment, are you still taking part in the trips organised by the town hall?
[r] Yes, this year, in April, we went. We just went in April. And the children came, they took me to… I went to… What’s it called, it’s near… Switzerland.
[i] Where?
[r] What’s it called? Near the mountain. Because in Guadeloupe, there’s the sea. So they took me to that place. The third, her boyfriend, her husband’s family, lives there. South of Bordeaux. Retirement in France is good. You don’t have to worry about anything. You can garden, plant vegetables, take care of things that way. Eat, stay calm. The Chinese, they work themselves to death. They always want to earn more. Don’t they? Always earn more. But it’s pointless. When you die, you can’t take that money with you.
[i] Why did you choose France in 1979? Did you have family in France? In 1979, did you choose France yourself?
[a] Yes!
[i] Why?
[a] I knew that… At the time, I didn’t have any family in France. Well… the father of my four children was already in France. And I didn’t have any family in the United States. Nor in Australia. So I registered to come to France. [My ex-husband] didn’t do the paperwork for us, so we couldn’t come. I had to wait four years to be able to come. I think it was good to come to France. When we arrived, they helped us with everything. When you arrive, if you don’t have anything, you are accommodated in a hostel.
[i] Did you first live in a hostel?
[r] No, I didn’t live in a hostel. They allocated this accommodation to me very quickly. They studied my file, they saw that I was a single woman with five children and two elderly people, and they quickly allocated this accommodation to me. We were lucky. Believe me.
[i] How big is this flat?
[r] It used to be a one-bedroom flat, there were four bedrooms and a living room. We’ve extended the space. When the children come to eat, it gets crowded. Over there, there are three bedrooms.
[i] And who do you live with here now?
[r] There are two of us, my husband and I. I have a friend who doesn’t have a family. She often comes to see me to chat. She lives alone in the suburbs. I do good deeds. When I see people who are unhappy, if I can help them, I help them.
[i] Have you ever been to China?
[a] Yes. I’ve been to China twice. I’ve been to Shanghai, Beijing, Wenzhou and Hong Kong.
[i] And have you been to Teochew?
[a] Yes.
[i] Do you like China?
[r] Yes, I like China too. My ancestors were from China. I went to Wenzhou, we have a friend there who is a client of my husband’s. In Wenzhou, we went to… We were treated well there. We met someone who… who worked at the police station as a secretary. There, he asked his driver to take us on a tour in the car. In the evening, he would serve us tea and chat with us. He said to me, ‘You’re strong!’ He took us for a drive. He put us up for two weeks. He told his driver to take us on a tour. With the driver. To Shanghai… From Shanghai, we went to Wenzhou. We entered through Shanghai. They said to me, ‘You’re a refugee, how did you manage to get into China?’ You’re a refugee, you don’t have French nationality. They saw that I had two names. A Cambodian name, a Chinese name given to me by my parents. The name I used to enrol at school. I put [Chinese name] as my name. For the papers, when I want to go to Hong Kong and Taiwan, I have to use my Chinese name. I also use my Cambodian name, in Cambodian script. Because I was born in Cambodia. They asked me questions. ‘Why do you have two names? You’re a refugee, how did you come to China?’ I said, “I have a passport, why can’t I enter?” [in Mandarin] “How come you can speak Mandarin?” I said, “In Cambodia, I learnt Chinese.” ’The Chinese you speak sounds like Pekingese.’ They questioned me for an hour in Shanghai. They saw on my passport that I had two names, that I was a refugee. Before Cambodians, they wouldn’t let them into China. I didn’t know that. Here, they allowed me to go, I got a visa. They asked me why I had two names, how could I answer them? It was complicated. But every time, I met nice people. Good people.
[i] Are you… How can I put it, someone lucky?
[r] Cambodian?
[i] No… Are you lucky?
[r] Ah, lucky? Yes, that’s right, I’m lucky. Yes.
[i] Do you think you are lucky?
[r] Yes, I am not afraid of dying. I can go anywhere. You can leave me anywhere, I am not afraid of dying. Wherever I go, I can manage. At the time, [my ex-husband] asked me if I agreed to him getting the children. I said it wasn’t possible. ‘I already lived in two communist countries before arriving in France. I am entitled to benefits for my children. Why should I reconcile with you?’ It’s not possible. Wasn’t it? When it’s broken, it’s broken. It’s sad for the children. Wasn’t it? Now, [my husband] is a nice person, he speaks French well, why should I… I can’t have two husbands. ‘I didn’t go to school much, I express myself less well, but I have common sense. I don’t want to talk about it anymore. I don’t want to continue the discussion.’ Life doesn’t work like that. Does it? “You were engaged and you did your paperwork together. When I arrived, you were getting married. Why keep in touch?” Isn’t it better to suffer all at once than to prolong the suffering? I have decided… With these two children… four children… five children. The oldest of the children, his parents didn’t come. I left him so that he could be taken care of by a structure… It’s in Cambodian. It was a reception centre for refugees. There was a family… He went to live with a foster family. I already had four children, I had no choice but to keep one more. He had learnt French in Vietnam. I took him to a host family. So that he could live with them. And I had these four children, they were at home with my mother. He was older, so I let him live with a French family. So that he could learn French quickly. And they were lawyers, so they could help him.
[i] How?
[r] Lawyers. In Marseille.
[i] Do you have anything to add?
[r] What?
[i] Anything else to tell?
[r] No.
[i] Thank you.
[r] You’re welcome.