SU_P_14

[i] Hello.
[r] Hello.
[i] Can you tell me where you were born?
[r] Yes. I was born in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. In 1953. No need to say the month? In 1953.
[i] And your… Were your parents Chinese?
[r] Yes, my parents came from China. There were five of us at home. No, five brothers and sisters. I had two older sisters and two older brothers.
[i] Were you the youngest?
[r] I was the youngest.
[i] Did your parents leave for Phnom Penh from China?
[a] Yes, they left China for Cambodia.
[i] Where?
[a] We are Teochew. My father is from Jieyang. My mother is from Chaoan.
[i] What year did they leave?
[r] As I left home young… I’ve forgotten. Probably during the Japanese invasion. During the war. In the 1930s. Yes. I hadn’t asked them. When I was young, at 19, I left home. When I was young… I had never asked them. At the time, I was young.
[i] And what job did they do in Phnom Penh?
[r] At home… At home… we sold products at the market. We had a bazaar, we sold everyday products, toothpaste, soap, etc… We had a small stall at the central market. When I was young, as soon as I left school, I helped my parents at the market. I helped to sell things. Until 1972, after the political change, I went to Macao.
[i] And in Phnom Penh, did you go to school?
[r] I studied up to the second year at the Cantonese school. The last school… I went to several schools because we moved around a lot. The last school was the Cantonese school. I studied Chinese up to the second year. After the second year, I didn’t study any more.
[i] And in addition to Chinese, did you study other languages?
[r] No. There was also Khmer, but I didn’t succeed. Once a week, or once a day, I can’t remember. Once a day or not a week, I can’t remember.
[i] Did you study French?
[a] In secondary school, they taught us the alphabet. I remember ‘ABCD’. We learnt simple things, ‘Coco’ which means coconut. [Laughter] I remember that. I can’t remember the rest.
[i] And you… How old were you when you started working with your parents?
[a] I left school, I remember, in 19… 1967, I was… 16 years old. I didn’t want to go to school any more. So I helped out at home. At the market, I helped to sell, to sell things.
[i] With your parents, you spoke…
[r] We spoke Teochew at home.
[i] You know how to speak Khmer?
[r] I’d forgotten all my Khmer, but I learnt it again when I came here. [Laughter] I’ve made Khmer friends here. I’m of Chinese origin. They don’t speak Teochew. As I don’t speak Khmer, we helped each other. They learnt a little Teochew, and I learnt a little Khmer again.
[i] And before, over there, you mainly hung out with Teochew people?
[r] Yes. Because in Phnom Penh, the majority were Teochew. At the market, when we bought things, we all spoke Teochew together. That’s why we didn’t really speak Khmer. We mainly hung out with the Chinese community. We were all Chinese classmates. We sometimes spoke Mandarin, sometimes Teochew.
[i] And before, over there, between the Chinese and the Cambodians, were there any problems?
[r] In general, there were no problems. It went well. In general, there were no problems. There were conflicts, they insulted the Chinese, they told us to go back to our country. They could tell us to go back to our country. But generally, that didn’t happen.
[i] And how many years did you have between your brothers and sisters?
[r] I was one year older than my sister. That makes 12 years. She was the oldest, I was the youngest. I still have a sister, who now lives in Siem Reap. Siem Reap, in Cambodia.
[i] Is she still there today?
[r] Yes, yes, in Siem Reap. She’s 78 this year. I’m 60… I’m 64 on my papers.
[i] And your older sister, did she stay there too?
[r] Yes, yes. During the Khmer Rouge… Because at the time, she got married in Siem Reap. We lived in Phnom Penh. She got married in Siem Reap, at the time of the exodus, she didn’t leave with my parents. She fled towards Siem Reap. She is still alive. I heard that my parents had gone towards Kampot. There was no way out at the end of that road. There was the sea. They stayed there. They couldn’t leave, they were killed by Pol Pot.
[i] And you… you went to Macao?
[r] Yes, in 1972, to escape military service.
[i] Did you go alone?
[r] I have an older cousin who had gone before. He wrote me a letter to say that life there was not bad. At the time, I don’t know why, I asked my parents if I could go abroad. They agreed. They thought it was a good idea to send one of their children abroad. I knew that once I left, I wouldn’t be able to come back and see them again. I went to live in Macao for 10 years. From 1972 to 1982.
[i] So your family is…
[r] I’m single, I never married.
[i] Your parents, they couldn’t leave?
[r] No, because they left… When Pol Pot arrived, they took the road to Kampot. In that direction. They couldn’t escape. If they had taken the road to Vietnam, they could have gone to Vietnam. If they had taken the road to Battambang, they could have gone to Thailand. They took the wrong one… the wrong direction. That’s why they all disappeared. My older sister was lucky, she left near Siem Reap.
[i] And she left alone?
[r] Who?
[i] Your sister.
[r] With my brother-in-law…
[i] With my brother-in-law and the children.
[r] When she fled, she wasn’t with my parents. She didn’t take the same route.
[i] When you went to Macao, over there, how…
[r] At the time, I was young, I remember, I was 19. When I arrived, to earn a living, I worked in a factory. When I arrived in France, I also worked.
[i] Where did you work in Macao?
[a] In a knitting factory, I don’t know if you know it. Woolen clothes. We made them one by one, we pulled them by hand. That’s how I earned my living in Macao.
[i] Were you there with an older cousin?
[a] Yes, we were in touch, my cousin was there. Then he went to Hong Kong.
[i] Did you live together?
[r] No, I lived with friends. I rented a room. Life was quite difficult there. And it was cold, I wasn’t used to it. In Phnom Penh, it was warm. I remember that year, it was 9 degrees. I really wasn’t used to it.
[i] And what was difficult was the work or…?
[r] The work, at that time, when I was young, I managed it well. The salary was very low. I was paid 7 patacas. The currency of Macao. 7 patacas. Food wasn’t expensive. A packet of cigarettes was only 40 cents. A glass of coffee with milk, 40 cents. A plate of fried noodles, 80 cents. There were large, medium and small. A small plate was 80 cents. Then 1 pataca and 1.20, I remember that. That’s about it, I can’t remember anymore. 7 patacas was enough to live on. The rent, I remember, was a few dozen patacas. 40-50 patacas. Per month, I earned about 200. Patacas. It was enough.
[i] For 10 years, you did the same job?
[r] Only this job. I had the opportunity to do something else, but I didn’t succeed. One day, I worked in a kettle factory. Do you know it? For hot water. It was too hot. I couldn’t stand it, I left after a day. [Laughter] So I didn’t stop working in the knitting factory.
[i] What language did you speak there?
[r] I had no choice, they were Cantonese, I spoke Cantonese. I only socialised with Chinese people from Phnom Penh. There were a lot of them, people from Phnom Penh. At most, there were 6 to 7,000. At most, when there were the most. I heard that there were 6 to 7,000.
[i] They were Teochew from Phnom Penh, people who lived in Phnom Penh who went to Macao?
[r] Yes, who went to Macao. It was during the war. At the time of the political change, some went to Macao.
[i] Are there still many of them there today…?
[r] There are many who, like me, came to France. Some went to Hong Kong. Not many stayed. Very few stayed. Many came to France.
[i] You stayed there until…
[r] 1982. I came to France in 1982.
[i] And how did you get the opportunity to come to France?
[r] At the time… It was said that you could come to France as a refugee. France was taking them in. That’s why I came. Because I was born in Phnom Penh. So there are a lot of people from Phnom Penh, how can I put it, who were born in Phnom Penh, who went to Macao and came to France. Because at the time, they said that you could, how can I put it, you could have refugee status. Some got it. Others did not. I did not succeed. I did not obtain refugee status.
[i] Some did?
[r] Some did.
[i] Do you know why some did and others did not?
[r] It’s a question of luck or bad luck, I don’t know why. They said my supporting documents were not sufficient. Because I’m not a real refugee. I’m not a real refugee. I left before… How can I put it? I left before Pol Pot came to power. They didn’t consider me to be a refugee. The French administration must have proof that you were born in Phnom Penh.
[i] Why did you choose to come to France? Was it bad in Macao?
[r] Because… I heard that there was more freedom in France. That there was more freedom.
[i] Not in Macao?
[r] It wasn’t great. Life was more… how can I put it? The country is too small. I had the opportunity to go abroad, so I… I was hoping to come to France. At least France was a prosperous country. With more freedom.
[i] And in Macao, was life difficult?
[a] It’s not that, but at that time, daily life was different. For food etc., it wasn’t like it was there [in Cambodia].
[i] Before coming to France, did you have any idea what France was like?
[r] Before coming to France, I didn’t know. I had no idea about France, I just knew that the country existed. I knew that many people went there, that the French state accepted them. So a few of us came at that time. Some of them got through, they were lucky, I think. They were granted refugee status. At the time, I had an interview at OFPRA, and they told me that my supporting documents were not sufficient. Because I didn’t leave as a refugee. Those who were granted it had documents from before, from Phnom Penh. Student cards or driving licences.
[i] When you came to France, did you have family here?
[r] No, until now I have been single.
[i] Did you have… an uncle… or…
[r] Where?
[i] In France.
[r] I came before my uncle. I came a year before him. A year or two, I don’t remember. I arrived in France in 1982.
[i] When you arrived, you didn’t have any extended family here?
[r] A younger cousin. He came to study here. My uncle’s son. He came to study here. When I arrived, I lived with him. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have dared to come.
[i] He came before?
[r] He came before, in 1976. He came to study here. In 1976, he came to study.
[i] You first arrived in Paris?
[r] When I arrived, yes, I came to Paris. I first lived in the 95. Because my cousin lived in the 95.
[i] Where in the 95?
[r] In the 95, in Cergy-Pontoise. Deuil-la-Barre. The name of the town.
[i] How long did you live there?
[r] Until… I lived there for about ten years, then I moved to live alone in Paris.
[i] Whereabouts?
[r] In 1998, I moved to where I live today. Paris 11th.
[i] Where do you live now?
[r] Where I live now.
[i] How long have you lived there?
[r] I’ve lived here since… 10… Since 2000. This year it will be 18 years. More like 17.
[i] And when you came to France, where did you work?
[r] Your work in France?
[i] When I arrived, to earn a living, at first I was a kitchen porter in a restaurant. I did the washing up, I did a bit of everything. After a while, I did ironing in a clothing workshop. For about ten years. Until 2000. Then, after a period of unemployment, I worked in a French company. In a laundry. A company that cleaned… cleaned… A company that cleaned, how should I put it, hotel linen. Sheets, blankets, pillowcases… For 4 years. Then I didn’t have any work. In 2011. Since then, I haven’t worked again.
[i] Why?
[r] Because I’m old, they don’t want to hire me, it’s hard to find work. I have health problems. My back always hurts. I injured my back. I have no strength left.
[i] Did you injure your back at work?
[r] No, I don’t know why I hurt my back. I can’t carry heavy things.
[i] Do you go to the doctor often?
[r] Yes, at the moment, I see him often.
[i] What do you think of life in France?
[r] Life in France? How can I put it? It’s good. To earn a living, you have no choice, that’s how it is, you have to do everything. You could put it that way. Because I don’t speak French. I don’t have a diploma. Do you know ‘diplôme’? ‘Diplôme’ [in French], right? I don’t have a diploma and I don’t speak French. I can only work for the Chinese. There are only three kinds of work with the Chinese. Only three sectors. Clothing, catering, commerce. At the time, I chose the wrong sector, I joined a clothing workshop. I didn’t work in the clothing workshop for long. Then the sector disappeared. The reason is that there are too many imports. Products imported from China are much cheaper than local products. That’s why there is no work left.
[i] And living in Paris, do you find that… Do you like it?
[r] It’s the same everywhere. But in Paris, I’m used to it, it’s easy. It’s easier. If you told me to go back to living in the suburbs, I wouldn’t be able to do it. I have a lot of friends in Paris. [Laughter]
[i] Your friends live…
[r] They all live near here. We have coffee together in the morning. Time passes more quickly. It keeps me busy.
[i] And what’s it like living here in Belleville? The security isn’t very good. It’s getting worse and worse. The security. In terms of security. It’s always been like that, we don’t have a choice, the State can’t… how can I put it, can’t manage everything. It’s hard to say. When the police are there, I feel safer walking, when the police aren’t there, at night, I don’t dare go out.
[i] Are you afraid?
[r] I don’t dare go out at night. I’m scared.
[i] Have you ever had any problems?
[r] Yes, once I was hassled, they wanted to steal my money, and they pushed me. Two people pushed me and stole my money. I didn’t realise. They were very agile. They pushed me and stole my money. I had money in my pocket. Just like that. It wasn’t a robbery. One of them pushed you and the other one stole your money. Just like that. Even my… What do you call it… the metro pass…
[i] Navigo?
[r] Yes. They took it. Now I’m careful. You shouldn’t put anything here. And when I go out, I act like a thief. I look everywhere. [Laughter] As if I were a thief. As if I were a thief, I look everywhere to see if I’m being followed.
[i] You’ve heard that in Belleville there are people…
[r] Yes, yes, there are often robberies. It happened to friends. I have a friend who works in a restaurant. On his way home, the attacker was tall, he lifted him up like this. Fortunately, he didn’t die. Fortunately, there were passers-by, so he left him. They stole the money he had on him. Asians are small in stature. They grabbed him by the throat and lifted him up. This kind of thing happens a lot to friends.
[i] Does it still happen today?
[r] Now it happens less.
[i] There are fewer of them?
[r] There are fewer. There are a lot of snatch thefts. Thefts of bags, mobile phones.
[i] And in Paris, are there any neighbourhoods where you like to go for a walk?
[r] No, only in Paris… I haven’t been to the neighbouring countries, to the surrounding areas. That is to say, Belgium, Italy, I haven’t been there. The most important thing for me is to go back to Cambodia to see my family. I’ve been back three times.
[i] You went back there?
[r] Three times. The first time, I went back 35 years after leaving Cambodia. To see my older sister. Now she’s in Siem Reap.
[i] What does she do for a living?
[r] She is old, she is over 70. Her children are in business. They provide for her. I think her life today is pretty good. She has a house, as long as she has a house, it’s good. As long as she has a house, no problem. Her children help her with food.
[i] And her children… Does she have any grandchildren?
[r] Yes, she has nine grandchildren. My older sister is lucky! She now has nine grandchildren. The oldest is 24.
[i] Do they all live there?
[r] They were all born in Siem Reap. Do you know Siem Reap? It’s where Angkor Wat is. Angkor Wat is very well known. Have you ever visited it? If you get the chance, you must go! ‘Just like that! Magnificent!’ [Laughter]
[i] Have you ever been there?
[r] Yes, every time I go, I go to visit.
[i] When you went back there, after 35 years…
[r] The first time I went there was 35 years after I left Cambodia. In 2006. 34 years later. 2006.
[i] And what was it like the first time you went back? Had it changed much?
[r] No, it was still the same. It hadn’t changed much. It was still the same. I noticed that the population had grown. There are more people than before. Today, there are 10 million inhabitants. In Cambodia. Before, it was 5 or 6 million. More or less. I remember 5 or 6 million. Now, there are 10 million. 13 or 14 million.
[i] And your older sister, do all her children speak Teochew?
[r] They don’t want to speak it. Generally, they only speak it at home. Generally, they speak Khmer together. They don’t speak Teochew with their children. They have no choice, later on, their grandchildren will all be Cambodian. They will only speak Khmer. But the advantage is that the children learn Chinese. So we don’t forget that we are Chinese. There is an advantage to learning Chinese. It’s easier to find work. Today, Chinese is useful. With Mandarin, it’s easier to find work. It’s easier to find work. Chinese and English. It’s useful in Cambodia.
[i] So you went there…
[r] Three times. The last time was in 2016.
[i] Do you want to go again?
[r] Yes!
[i] My heart… is there. But I don’t have a choice, I have my papers here. I live here, I’m used to it. Even if I went back, it would be… For healthcare, it wouldn’t be great. I’m a certain age. I have health problems, it’s complicated. That’s why I have to… I have to stay here. But in my heart, I’d like to go back and live there.
[i] And your friends here, where are they from?
[r] Many of them are Teochew from Phnom Penh. Most of them are Chinese from Phnom Penh. Chinese from Cambodia, not just Phnom Penh.
[i] Did you meet them here?
[r] I met them all here. I met them here. One or two of them came from Macao, I was lucky enough to find them. I’ve known them for 40 years. From Macao until now. That’s 40 years. I lived with my parents, but only for about ten years. There are friends, that’s 40 years. I found them here. We’re still in touch. I’m going to drink some water, sorry.
[i] Where do they live?
[r] They all live nearby, in the four arrondissements. 19th, 20th, 11th, and 10th. My friends all live near here. There are about ten of them. In the morning, we have… Time passes more quickly. At the café, we see each other, we chat about this and that.
[i] Do you see them every day?
[r] Every day, every morning.
[i] And in Paris, inside the city walls, are there any places you like to go for a walk?
[r] No, I don’t go away, I stay in France. I don’t go anywhere.
[i] And inside Paris?
[r] Yes, I went to Marseille, I went to the South twice. I went there twice.
[i] But here, do you go for walks in other neighbourhoods?
[r] Yes, yes, when I have time, I go for walks.
[i] Where do you go?
[r] Montparnasse, for a stroll. Pompidou. Châtelet, when I have time, I go there on foot. I go there on foot and come back by metro. With the aim of, how can I put it… doing sport, by walking slowly. It takes about 50 minutes. To walk to Châtelet. To go to Châtelet on foot. Sometimes I go to the suburbs. To see friends in the suburbs.
[i] And what do you like doing?
[r] What do you mean?
[i] Do you like walking, watching TV, reading books?
[r] No, just walking. Walking, looking around.
[i] And cooking, do you like…
[r] Cooking… I mainly eat rice. Sometimes, for breakfast, I eat bread. When it’s hot, I mainly eat bread. When I don’t have much of an appetite. I eat like the French. Baguettes etc… Bread, a beefburger, that makes a meal. It’s easy to make. With vegetables, tomato and salad.
[i] Do you like French food?
[r] I love it! The entrecôte is my favourite. [Laughs] Because I’ve lived here for a long time. How can I put it… it has an influence. On the food.
[i] When you arrived, did you find the French to be kind?
[r] I used to think the French were very warm. They were kind to Asians. Maybe there are too many people coming here. Us Asians. There are too many Asians, including Chinese, coming here, so maybe they’re not accepting it anymore. Maybe it’s disrupting their way of life. I think that now they’re… You can’t blame them. That’s just the way it is.
[i] Did you take French lessons?
[r] Yes, yes. When I was unemployed, when I was no longer working, I took French lessons, I did it for several years. At least 10 times. I took French lessons at least 10 times. I studied here and there, always around the same level.
Which one?
Around level B2. Always around level B2. I couldn’t make any progress. That’s why I can’t speak French. Always around that level, B2, B2. At the beginning, I couldn’t speak, I started with the alphabet. Today, I am able to take care of my paperwork. For simple procedures, I dare to go alone. Before, I had to be accompanied. Now, I go to the bank, to the hospital, by myself. Before, I asked people. What I needed to say. I would first ask people. How to say a certain sentence.
[i] Where did you take French lessons?
[r] In several schools, in the 13th, in the 11th, in several places, in all, in six or seven schools.
[i] Was it you who…
[r] It was me who wanted to.
[i] Who did you look for yourself?
[r] Yes, that’s right. Because not speaking French is really not practical. When I was working, I didn’t realise. When I no longer had a job and I had to do administrative procedures, I saw that begging others was very complicated. Every time, I went to beg people. Beg them to accompany me. Some people, friends, some of them work, they can’t accompany me, what can I do? You can only count on yourself. So you have to go yourself. I like learning French. Learning expressions is useful for yourself.
[i] Languages, can you speak… which ones?
[r] Conjugation? I know a little about conjugation. I know how to use the past tense a little. I know a little about the imperfect.
[i] What other languages can you speak?
[r] Ah, languages. Apart from French? Apart from French, I know a little Khmer, a little Vietnamese. I know a little Vietnamese. Because when I was little, I lived in the Vietnamese neighbourhood. You know the Vietnamese neighbourhood? Where the Vietnamese lived. And I speak Cantonese, I lived in Macao for 10 years. Teochew of course, I’m of Teochew origin. I also speak Mandarin. I don’t speak English. Not at all.
[i] So…
[r] I know several languages.
[i] Do you go to the temple or…? To pray…
[r] Religion? No, I don’t believe in anything. When I was little, I remember that we didn’t have any religious practices at home. We didn’t pray at home. My mother was Protestant. My mother was Protestant. When I was little, I used to go to church with her. I didn’t have a choice, she dragged me there. To accompany her. [Laughter] Every Sunday, I went to church with my mother. When I arrived in France, I didn’t practise any religion. I don’t go to church, I don’t pray to Buddha. But today, in memory of my parents, I light incense. Every morning, I light incense. In their memory. Every morning, so as not to forget them, I light incense. In their memory. But I don’t pray. I have no religion. I have no altar, I make no offerings.
[i] Do you have an uncle here?
[r] I have an uncle and first cousins. First cousins. Do you know what that means? First cousins. They are the children of my father’s brothers. That’s what we call them. I have… He has several brothers. In total I have 7 or 8 cousins. My younger cousins are my uncle’s two children. Today I have an uncle and an aunt in France. They have two children.
[i] When did they come to France?
[r] My younger cousin arrived in 1976. The second arrived a year before me. In 1981. I arrived in 1982.
[i] Do you see each other often?
[r] Yes, yes. At the very least, we call each other, we call to catch up. Once in a while, I call them to catch up. Recently, I called my uncle. Every year, I go to wish them a happy new year. At least once. And generally, generally, I go to see them from time to time. Two or three times a year. They live quite far away, in the suburbs. It’s not that far, but you have to take the train. It’s not very practical.
[i] Where do they live?
[r] In Epinay-sur-Seine.
[i] Do they all have children?
[r] Yes, my cousins’ children are all grown up, they have grandchildren. My cousins all have grandchildren.
[i] What do you do on a daily basis?
[r] Nothing, my life today is routine. In the morning, I have coffee with friends, in the afternoon, I go for a walk. I walk as a sport. Sometimes, I come here, I just met [name of a person from the association]. I come here to keep busy. To chat. In the evening, I watch TV at home. That’s how it is. That’s life, I have no choice. Life in France is not… I don’t know how to put it. That’s how it is. Summer is good for walking. In winter, it’s too cold, I stay at home.
[i] And on TV, you watch…
[r] I only watch the news on TV.
[i] You watch the news in French?
[r] I watch the news, so I don’t forget, so I can learn some expressions. In general, I watch a lot on my mobile, on my mobile. I watch YouTube. On YouTube, I watch the programmes I like. Because there are loads of programmes on there. There’s news in Chinese. There’s films. There are also series.
[i] When you were little, do you remember when you were happiest?
[r] Yes! The happiest time? In my opinion… I don’t consider my life to have been very good. I left home when I was young. The happiest time for me was when I was living with my parents. When I think about it, it was good. Today, it’s no longer the case.
[i] Have you ever been to China? To Chaozhou?
[r] Yes, when I lived in Macao, I went there several times. Because it was close. You could go there by boat. By boat, you could get there after one night, in Guangzhou. I went there several times. Six or seven times. I went to visit Guangzhou. And I went to my hometown two or three times.
[i] You have also…
[r] I mainly went to my mother’s home town, she still has a little brother there. I have an uncle in my home town.
[i] How many times have you been there? Three times. Three or four times. I can’t remember.
[i] Where do you consider you are from? That you are Cambodian? Teochew?
[r] Concerning the territory? I can’t say, I consider that I am Chinese. But I was born in Phnom Penh. Often, I think about… I miss my hometown. I want to go back there. But my origins are Chinese. In my heart, I am Chinese. On my papers, my hometown is Phnom Penh. So I have Cambodian nationality, I am from Phnom Penh. I still have an attachment. I was born there.
[i] And do you consider yourself… a bit French?
[r] Ah, on this subject… I’ve never thought about it! There is a link, though. Now, I consider myself half French. I’ve been living here for several decades. I’m used to it. The food… When I go out, I say ‘Bonjour’ and speak a little French. Half French. You could say that. Half French. I’ve lived here for so long. There’s bound to be an influence. In terms of culture, in terms of… How can I put it? How can I put it? It doesn’t come out. In terms of customs. I’m used to the way of life. There’s an influence. Yes.
[i] Your papers, today, is it every 10 years?
[a] I renew every 10 years. I am an ‘economic immigrant’. A foreigner who works in France.
[i] And the fact of… renewing every 10 years, is it complicated?
[a] Renewing every 10 years is not complicated. Before, it was once a year, it was very… Because before, I didn’t speak French. Every time, I had to beg people to accompany me. And my papers were far away, in the 95, in Cergy-Pontoise. It was 30 kilometres away, and I had to take the train. That’s why I changed to Paris. Before, it was once a year. For the extension of the residence permit. At first, you needed a work permit. Without a work permit, you couldn’t work. I remember that for 2-3 years, when I had just arrived, you needed a work permit. Do you know what a work permit is? Without a work permit, you couldn’t work. Even with a residence permit, you couldn’t work. You also needed a work permit. Now, all you need is the residence permit. The residence permit allows us to work.
[i] So, now you renew every 10 years?
[r] Yes, once every 10 years. Every 10 years… I’ve already renewed it twice. In 4 years’ time, it will be the third time.
[i] So now the procedures are easier? It’s easier now. Now, to work out the most important thing is to have your passport from your country of origin, whatever your nationality. If you have Cambodian nationality, you need your Phnom Penh passport. Not Phnom Penh, the Cambodian passport. To be able to renew. The EDF bill is enough. Just those two things. EDF and passport. That’s all. EDF, passport. That’s all. It’s much easier than before. Just those two things. EDF, passport, that’s all.
[i] Have you ever been to… countries close to Cambodia? To Vietnam?
[a] The first time I went home, I went to visit Vietnam once. It was the first time I went to Vietnam. I went for a week. I went on a package holiday. I went on a package holiday from Phnom Penh.
[i] Have you been to Thailand?
[r] No, I’ve never been. Only to Vietnam.
[i] And has your sister ever been here?
[r] No, never. Because to come, the visas are complicated. You have to ask for authorisation. You have to make a request. And they don’t want to come either, I don’t know why. They like to travel in Asia. In nearby countries. Singapore, Thailand, China, to travel. They don’t want to come here.
[i] And you were saying… that your cousins… had children?
[r] Where?
[i] Here.
[r] Yes, they have grandchildren. Both my cousins have grandchildren.
[i] Did they ask you about your history?
[r] No, no, because life here, you know, everyone minds their own business. From time to time, we spend New Year’s Eve together, we call each other to say hello, that’s all. Nothing special. And they live… how can I put it, they live quite far away. In the suburbs. We don’t see each other often. We just catch up on the phone.
[i] And… in Macao, do you have… happy memories?
[r] Memories? I don’t have any happy memories. I do have sad memories. Why is that? There are lots of casinos there. You can’t help but be influenced by that. To tell the truth, I gambled a lot. [Laughter] That’s why I fled to come here. Here, I don’t have the money to gamble, that’s why. Because when I went there, I was young. There were a lot of casinos, I gambled a lot. So I have some sad memories. To tell the truth. As a result, I don’t have any happy memories. None. In my opinion, there aren’t any.
[i] Do many people play there?
[r] Yes. Yes, it’s true. Especially immigrants. The locals don’t play much. There aren’t many locals. They don’t play, the locals. It was mainly us immigrants who played. There were 9 out of 10 of us. When we were young. 9 out of 10. There were dog races. They weren’t horse races, they were dog races. Dog racing tracks. There were horse races, but in Hong Kong. Whether you play a lot or a little, there’s a harmful influence. And we usually played mah jong. [Laughter]
[i] You haven’t gone back there?
[r] No, I don’t think I want to go back there. As far as I’m concerned. But if I get the chance, why not go back and see what it’s like. So far, I haven’t gone back.
[i] You went there in 1972, and then stayed?
[r] I lived there.
[i] You haven’t been back to Cambodia?
[r] No, I couldn’t come back, it was military service. In Cambodia, in 1975, it was, how can I put it, the regime was overthrown by Pol Pot. Until… At one point, my mother had told me to go home. She had told me, not to go to Cambodia, but to go and live in Vietnam. But I didn’t manage to get the papers to leave. If I had managed to go back, I would be… it wouldn’t have done me any good. I stayed in Macao. My family missed me a lot. They hoped I could come back. In 1974. I almost went back. If I had gone back, I would have known the Pol Pot regime.
[i] And today, do you have any hopes?
[r] No… at my age… Now, at this age, I can only hope to be in good health. That my health is good. As for money, as long as I live with what I have, it’s enough. If I have some, I spend it, if I have little, I make do with it… As long as it allows me to live. I hope to be in good health, not to get sick. That’s it. The rest is superfluous. Being in good health is the most important thing. Today, I am single, I can no longer have children. I have no choice. Thanks to state aid, I can live. I consider myself to be… How can I put it… I’m quite lucky. So I thank France. I repeat. I thank France once again. I thank the French State, not France. Otherwise my life would be quite difficult.
[i] Do you ever go to the 13th arrondissement?
[r] Yes, yes, I have friends there. You shouldn’t always stay at home. I try to go there once or twice a week. You shouldn’t always stay at home. Should you? Meeting friends, having a coffee is good. Eating a plate of fried noodles, chatting a bit… Yes, I have friends in the 13th.
[i] Where do you go in the 13th?
[r] Mainly in Porte de Choisy. And sometimes, when it comes to administrative procedures, I go to a friend in the 13th. He helps me… He’s an accountant, he’s good at it. He’s an accountant. I show him letters, etc. I’m lucky to know this friend. He helps me a lot. Making requests, filling in forms, he’s always the one who helps me. So I thank him too.
[i] And in the 13th, what do you like to eat? What dishes?
[r] Always the same dishes… I eat Vietnamese food, I eat… I eat at all-you-can-eat buffets… It’s more economical. You can eat whatever you want for about ten euros. After that, nothing special… I eat phở, noodle soups, classic dishes. Nothing special.
[i] What is your favourite cuisine?
[r] My favourite cuisine? No, I don’t have a favourite. I always eat more or less the same thing.
[i] And do you cook yourself?
[r] When I’m alone at home, I cook simple dishes. Yes, sometimes I make fried rice. Making fried rice and a fried egg is the easiest thing there is. I cook pork, but I’m lazy, when you’re alone and you cook a lot… you can’t finish it. When you make sweet and sour fish soup, you can eat it for two or three meals in a row, but no more. I eat it for two meals in a row. As a result, I don’t cook much at home. I eat simple things.
[i] When do you plan to return to Cambodia?
[r] I want to go. But at the moment, my health is not very good. My health is not good. I plan to go, when I have the opportunity, to see my sister, a few more times. Once, then another.
[i] And when you go, you go…
[r] A month.
[i] A month? Because when you’re unemployed, the state gives you five weeks [of leave].
[i] And when you go there, do you go sightseeing?
[r] Yes, yes, I go to Kampong Som. Kampong Som [Sihanoukville]. Kampong Som, Kampot. In Kampong Som, there’s the beach.
[i] Have you ever been to Battambang?
[r] I’ve never been to Battambang.
[i] Have you been back to Phnom Penh?
[r] Yes, every time, because I have a younger cousin in Phnom Penh. I forgot, I also have a niece. The daughter of my second great-uncle. She’s still there. I go and see her every time.
[i] Has she always lived there?
[r] Yes, yes, she has a house, she’s very lucky. Before, she had bought a house. Before, she knew… she’s not her real aunt, but she called her ‘Ayi’, she helped her buy her house. She helped her… Since then, she has had her own house.
[i] And she hadn’t fled the country?
[r] Where to?
[i] She’s still… She lived there before and…
[r] No, she’s always lived there. She hasn’t moved.
[i] Do you think that Belleville has changed?
[r] It has changed. It’s more lively than before. Compared to before, I remember when I first arrived, there were Chinese immigrants, but not as many as today. Now the shops are all run by Chinese people. They have bought the whole neighbourhood. The Chinese. They’ve bought up all the shops. About 80%, I’d say. It’s changed a lot. There are more of us Chinese in the diaspora than before. It’s more lively.
[i] There are a lot of young people who come here for a drink, aren’t there? French people. Young people. They come here for a drink…
[r] They mainly come to… eat the food… how can I put it? They come to our Asian restaurants. That’s the main thing. Not to have a drink. I think it’s mainly to eat in the restaurant. Vietnamese, Asian restaurants. They come to have a drink, but in places opened by French people. Now there are lots of bars to have a drink. On the terrace. Until 1 or 2 in the morning. In Ménilmontant, there’s a street, I don’t know if you’ve ever been there. Wow, there are loads of bars to have a drink, as you say. To drink beer, drinks, there are some all along the street. Go there on a Friday night. They come from other neighbourhoods on purpose, also to meet up there and have a drink. It’s not just in this neighbourhood, it’s also the case in other neighbourhoods. But I know this neighbourhood because it’s next door. In Ménilmontant, there’s a street. One street. They love it.
[i] Here, in the rue de Belleville…
[r] Yes?
[i] There are some too.
[r] There are one or two streets, no more. There is a bar opposite the Tai Yuan restaurant.
[i] And do you come often to this organisation?
[r] No, it’s only been this year. This year, I saw a friend who introduced me to it. I came here to help [name of a person in the organisation] use his phone. His phone… his WeChat wasn’t working. I helped him… I know this area well. When I was helping him, I got to know [name of the same person], I thought he was nice. In the afternoon, when I have time, I come here. I come for an hour or two, to chat. That’s it.
[i] Is it always busy here?
[r] Here? What do you mean?
[i] Here, there are always people who come… who can come…
[r] Yes, it’s a… how can I put it… It’s an association. I don’t know if you can call it that. It’s an association. People from Indochina. From Indochina. People from Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam can come. Thailand too.
[i] And the people who come are…
[r] There are also Chinese people. They come to pray. I have also said prayers several times, to be in good health.
[i] Are they mainly elderly people?
[r] No, there are young people too. There are Europeans who come, I’ve already seen some… Portuguese. From Portugal. They come to shake a box containing wooden sticks. A couple who often came to shake this box. I don’t know how to do that, they’re better than me. Once they’ve shaken it, they ask if today’s predictions are good. I’ve known about this place for a long time, but I didn’t know anyone, I didn’t come here. It’s only this year, since I’ve known [name of the person from the association], that I’ve been coming here often. To chat. And these days, I often run into [name of another person]. [Laughter]
[i] Do you think that within the Chinese diaspora in Paris, there is… mutual aid?
[r] Mutual aid? On this question… A little. I think that… only a little. I think that… there are some who are selfish. There are some who are in mutual aid. Those who are involved in associations, they help each other. There are some… It’s hard to say… Some are selfish… It’s very hard to say. But within the diaspora, there is still mutual support. In my opinion. There is still some.
[i] And when you have requests for translation, do you ask a friend?
[r] Yes, to a friend in the 13th. When I have some mail to translate, I go and see him.
[i] Do you ever go to other organisations to get help?
[r] No, because I don’t speak French well. If I ask them and they answer me, I won’t understand, so it’s no use. I would have to bring someone to translate, and I would ask the interpreter again. I had taken lessons there, in Belleville. At the… ‘la maison’… By the metro exit. What’s it called? ‘The house below…’
[i] The house below Belleville.
[r] Below Belleville, yes. I couldn’t remember. I took lessons there, three times. I signed up three times at that place.
[i] French lessons?
[r] Yes, French lessons. To learn to listen. I’m not good at oral comprehension. I know at least ‘yes’ and ‘no’. If you don’t understand, for administrative procedures, if you don’t understand, people get annoyed. They are… annoyed. They say, ‘You don’t understand, you have to bring someone who understands’.
[i] And who attends the courses there?
[r] Lots of people. Foreigners.
[i] Asians?
[r] No, no. Asians, there was me and… Me and a Chinese guy. Otherwise, there were Arabs, Africans, Spaniards too. Spain.
[i] Who introduced you to…
[r] The school? Where?
[i] Did you know that there were courses there?
[r] Yes, I knew that you could enrol. I asked. I asked at reception. I said that I wanted to learn French. So they gave me an appointment for… for an interview. A short interview, to see if I could express myself. To choose the level.
[i] Had you taken lessons before?
[r] I had taken lessons there several years ago. Several years ago, I took lessons there. And last year, I took two sessions of lessons in a row.
[i] Was that once a week?
[r] It was three times a week. Monday, Tuesday… Four days. Two hours a day. Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. That’s right.
[i] Did you learn to speak and write?
[r] Yes, to write. They forced us to write. They forced us to write, and we learnt the conjugation. They taught us how to conjugate sentences. According to the context.
[i] Do you know…
[r] I can read a little. If it’s easy. I can understand my own letters. I can’t understand other people’s letters because I only know my own situation. I can read my own letters 50% of the time. Before asking friends, I look first, I know what it’s about. To get an idea beforehand.
[i] Did they give you homework?
[r] Yes.
[i] To do at home?
[r] There… There was homework from time to time. If we didn’t have time to do it in class, we did it at home.
[i] So for reading and writing…
[r] To read… To read, if it’s easy, I can do it. In everyday life, I can read a little. If it’s more complicated, I don’t understand.
[i] When you read, is it mainly Chinese?
[r] Yes, Chinese. Mainly Chinese. Mainly Chinese.
[i] And Khmer?
[r] I’ve forgotten all about Khmer. I can’t remember the Khmer script. I’ve forgotten all about the Khmer script. I can speak the language a little. I spoke it again on the way here. I made some Khmer friends here and spoke it again. With the Khmer nationality, I have to be able to speak it. Otherwise, it’s not practical for crossing the border. That’s why I forced myself to learn it again.
[i] Did you learn it by talking to people?
[r] By seeing each other like that, chatting about this and that.
[i] You don’t read it?
[r] Not at all. I’ve forgotten all about Khmer script.
[i] Had you learnt it before?
[r] No, I was learning Chinese, but there was only one lesson a day. I’ve forgotten everything.
[i] And now you don’t want to carry on learning French?
[r] My health is not very good… I often have back pain. And… It’s not easy to learn. That’s why I stopped.
[i] Do you follow a regular treatment?
[r] Yes, I often take medication. I see the doctor once every three months, he gives me medication.
[i] Did you hurt your back at work?
[r] No, it was because I helped people move house. I hadn’t thought about it, I helped people move house. I’m the one who… At the time, I hadn’t thought about it, I helped people move, and there was no lift. It was too heavy. I hurt my back. It was quite serious. I couldn’t sleep for a month. It affected my nerve. As soon as I lay down, it hurt.
[i] Has it been a long time?
[r] It was in 2016. I had an X-ray and I’m applying cream. A cream that heals over time. I’m also starting to take anti-inflammatories. But I’m not completely healed yet. I have to be careful. I can’t carry heavy loads. When I buy water, I don’t dare buy six bottles. I buy two bottles of Evian. I carry two. I’m afraid it will come back. If it comes back, it will be difficult.
[i] And this doctor is…
[r] When I have back pain, I go to a medical centre. A public centre. In Stalingrad. They have everything. All the specialities. Dentist, GP, they can also do X-rays, they can even do X-rays. They also have physiotherapists there, which is good. I also go to see a rheumatologist, who told me to have an X-ray. That’s how he knew I had a back problem.
[i] Do you go there alone to consult?
[r] Yes, I go there alone.
[i] Do you think it’s very hot at the moment? Do you like it being this hot?
[r] I’m not used to it. Because in France, I think that in France, it’s been a long time, it’s the first time it’s been this hot for such a long period. It’s been at least a month. I’m not used to it. But I like it when it’s hot. I prefer summer to winter.
[i] At the moment, it’s as hot as it is in Cambodia.
[r] Yes. It’s even hotter in Cambodia. 35-36 degrees. Generally, I don’t have the opportunity to sunbathe. In the morning, I always go sunbathing. About 15-20 minutes.
[i] Do you go to a garden?
[r] Yes, on the corner near my house, there is a very small garden. A small square for children. There are benches, I often sit there. I go there twice a day. In the morning, and in the evening, after eating, I go down for a short walk.
[i] When you arrived in France, what was the weather like?
[r] When I arrived, it was summer. In Macao, there had already been… I had already experienced winters. When I arrived, I didn’t think it was that cold.
[i] In Macao, there is no snow?
[a] No, it doesn’t snow. The coldest it gets is six degrees. Five to six degrees is the coldest it gets. In general, it’s about ten degrees.
[i] So here, with the snow, you weren’t used to it?
[r] No, it’s not the snow, I don’t mind the snow. It’s when the snow melts. It’s… It’s not practical for going out. When it snows, it’s beautiful.
[i] Do you go to the tourist areas? In Paris.
[r] The tourist areas? I don’t go to the tourist areas much. I go to… the museum. We say ‘musée’, don’t we? I went there with the French classes, they took us there to visit. I took part. The tourist areas… Which ones in Paris? I don’t know. The tourist areas…
[i] Eiffel Tower, Champs-Elysées…
[r] Yes, yes. That’s right, generally when I have time, I go for a walk there. I often go to the Champs-Elysées, because it’s close to… I often go there. I often go for a walk there with my friends.
[i] And the Seine?
[r] The Seine, yes. When I go to Châtelet, sometimes, when I have time, I walk, alone, and I sit by the Seine. Sometimes I go with friends. I walk to the other bank and there is an… island, isn’t there? A tiny one. I go for a walk there.
[i] And Notre-Dame?
[r] I often go to Notre-Dame.
[i] Saint-Michel?
[r] Yes, Saint-Michel.
[i] And in France, have you ever been to… Just now, you said you’d been to Marseille?
[r] To Marseille, yes. Marseille, Nice, Cannes… I’ve been there twice. The Côte d’Azur, that’s right. I’ve been there twice.
[i] And other places too?
[a] Yes, yes, I went to… Lille. Lille, Saint-Quentin. And also… What’s it called? Yes, those places… Saint-Quentin, Lille. That’s all. And over there, what’s it called… Mont-Saint-Michel, right? Mont-Saint-Michel…
[i] Did you go on a package holiday?
[a] Yes, sometimes on an organised trip, or with friends in the car.
[i] Can you drive?
[a] I have friends who live in Saint-Quentin, I went with them. I stayed at their place.
[i] Can you drive?
[r] I can drive, but I don’t have a licence here. I had a licence in Macao. When I arrived in France, I didn’t need one. I didn’t take the test. Since I didn’t take the test, I don’t drive.
[i] In Macao, they drive… On the other side?
[r] They drive on the left. Here it’s on the right.
[i] Before, it was…
[r] Portugal was in charge. Portugal.
[i] When you lived there, didn’t it belong to Portugal anymore?
[r] Yes, it did. Until 1999. Two years later than Hong Kong. Hong Kong, the handover was in 1997. I remember it was in 1999, I don’t know, it might not be that. In 1999, China took it back.
[i] Over there, they speak…
[r] Cantonese.
[i] What about Portuguese? Portuguese is mainly for administrative procedures. Even for procedures, it was not widely used. The Portuguese were senior officials… I didn’t have the opportunity to meet any. For administrative procedures, it was only Chinese from the diaspora. Speaking Cantonese was enough. I filled in all the paperwork in Chinese.
[i] And in Hong Kong, did you go there?
[r] Yes, I… I went there… several times. Five or six times.
[i] Is it similar to Macao?
[r] It’s more prosperous. It’s a more prosperous territory. It’s more modern. The apartments are more… how can I put it? They’re newer. I’m talking about before. I haven’t been back to Macao for a long time, I don’t know. In Macao before, the apartments were all old. Hong Kong is more modern. And there are more shops. The shops… There are many more restaurants and cafés than in Macao. There are also many factories. In Macao, before, there wasn’t… there wasn’t much work. The locals made firecrackers. The kind you light. The locals made those before. Then there were knitting factories. That’s what I did. My job was to knit woollen jumpers. That’s when they appeared. Before, there weren’t any. Before, they only made firecrackers. With gambling, only two things. And fishing. The locals fish. Yes.
[i] So it’s very different from Hong Kong.
[r] It’s not the same, Hong Kong is more developed. In Hong Kong, there used to be a lot of factories.
[i] We’ve already had a lot of discussions.
[r] OK.
[i] Thank you very much.
[r] You’re welcome, you’re welcome. They’re simple things. You’re welcome.