SU_P_13

[i] Hello.
[r] Hello.
[i] Could you please tell me where you were born?
[r] Yes, I was born in Cambodia. I am 58 years old. And… I left Cambodia when I was 16.
[i] In which city in Cambodia were you born?
[r] In Phnom Penh.
[i] In Phnom Penh?
[r] In Phnom Penh.
[i] OK, what year was that?
[r] In Phnom Penh, in 1960.
[i] 1960?
[r] Yes.
[i] And your family was of Chinese origin?
[r] Of Chinese origin, yes. My father was Chinese. He entered Cambodia from China, where the Second World War was raging.
[i] I see.
[r] So… Well, I was born in Cambodia. My mother was also… was born in Cambodia.
[i] And… They’re Teochew?
[r] Teochew, yes.
[i] OK. So they were the ones who went to Cambodia?
[r] That’s right. Because it was during the Second World War. That’s why…
[i] OK.
[r] They left China to go to Cambodia.
[i] OK. And what did they do in Cambodia?
[r] With my grandmother, all that. Oh, but we had a small… business of my father who was a food seller, all that.
[i] OK, he had a grocery shop?
[r] A grocery shop, yes. It was in… what do you call it? In French, what do you call it? In a market [in Teochew].
[i] A market?
[r] At the market… It’s a market… a bit… near my house.
[i] OK. And you spoke Teochew at home?
[r] Yes. Well, in Cambodia, we only speak Teochew, right. But… At school, we speak Cambodian.
[i] Did you go to school with Cambodians?
[r] Yes, with Cambodians in… in the Buddhist camp.
[i] And what memories do you have of that time?
[r] But then, at the age of 5, I had studied Chinese. But after that, it was forbidden to learn Chinese. At the age of 7, I went to school in Cambodia.
[i] There was a ban on speaking Chinese?
[r] That’s right. On learning Chinese, rather.
[i] And that was the government’s decision?
[r] That’s right. Because at the time, I was told that Mao is too dangerous. That’s why they don’t want us to… to… How can I put it? To learn Chinese. It’s too… It’s too communist. That’s it. That’s why… I gave up Chinese and learnt Cambodian.
[i] And…
[r] But when I was little, I learnt French too. In Cambodia. But it was a private school.
[i] Was there any hostility towards Chinese people at that time? Did you feel that it was difficult to be Chinese in Phnom Penh?
[r] Oh no… Not at all.
[i] Did you get on well?
[r] Because I was still young, so you know, I didn’t understand anything, because my parents decided that we were leaving Cambodia, that’s why we left when we were 16. But I didn’t know anything. Parents make the decisions.
[i] And did you have any brothers and sisters?
[r] Yes.
[i] How many?
[r] I had two brothers and two sisters. So, during the war, my sister didn’t manage to leave Cambodia. And… she disappeared, we can’t find her… And… I had two brothers who are here, in France, now. The three of us brothers left for France.
[i] And how many of you were there in total? There were five of you?
[r] There were five of us. My two sisters have disappeared. Even my father… during the war… he disappeared too. We can’t find him.
[i] And how did you manage to come to France?
[r] Well, I had left Cambodia. I went to Thailand. And I entered the refugee camp in Thailand. For seven months. After that, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing brought us to France. So it was in the month of… 1976.
[i] You arrived in France in 1976?
[r] That’s right. What period was it that… what date did you go…
[r] 23 November.
[i] 23 November 1976?
[r] Yeah.
[i] You remember the date correctly?
[r] Yes.
[i] And when you left for Thailand,
[r] Yes.
[i] Was that just before the Khmer Rouge?
[r] Before the Khmer Rouge. Just one month. One month. One month before the Khmer Rouge. I left a month before, that’s why I… My parents are… My father… We couldn’t even find him. And there’s my grandmother and my two sisters.
[i] And you knew that… you had to leave, at that point?
[r] Well yes, it’s my parents who decide. Because in Cambodia, we had family who… who were in the military, they knew all that. When they found out, they told us that we had to… we had to leave Cambodia. That’s why we left earlier. It’s just a month. It’s unfortunate, my father couldn’t leave… because… My father couldn’t leave because he had shops and stuff to sell. It was too late to… That’s why we’re here in France.
[i] And you went to Thailand with your mum?
[a] With my mum, yes.
[i] And your brothers?
[r] Well.
My mum brought three… three boys to leave… We stayed in Thailand for seven months. Then we came to France.
[i] And you were in a refugee camp in Thailand?
[r] Yes. In Chonburi.
[i] Chonburi?
[r] In Chonburi. It’s not Chonburi, it’s… Chonburi. Chonburi.
[i] And were there only refugees from Cambodia there?
[r] Yes.
[i] And what was life like in the refugee camp there?
[r] The refugee camp, well every day… But we do nothing… We have to stay in the camps, and we wait… for the results to come to France.
[i] Was it France or were there other countries too?
[r] No, there are no other countries. There are no other countries. There are only Cambodians. All, all, all Cambodians.
[i] But to go to France… Were there other countries of destination, or was it just France?
[r] Normally, there is… There is America, and… France. And… and Canada too. But we chose America and France. But at that time, it was convenient that Giscard d’Estaing wanted to… take us, that’s why we came to France directly. We didn’t want to wait there to… without working, without… without anything, how do you live? In the camp… it’s hard in the camps.
[i] And why did you choose France?
[r] It’s not that we decided on France. We decided to… to go… to a country that would take us. So it’s good that France took us. So… After a month, after a month… In America, they… they looked for us to go there too, because… Because we applied for both countries. But it was France first, so we came to France. But it’s good that I learned French in Cambodia. Well… I can speak a little bit anyway. That’s why it’s good that we came to France.
[i] And your brothers, are they younger or older?
[r] I have an older brother and a younger brother.
[i] So they could speak French too?
[r] Yes, yes. But we learnt together, all together. In a… private school.
[i] And did you have family in France?
[r] Family, yes, but I have an aunt in France.
[i] But did they arrive before or after you?
[r] After me.
[i] You were the first to arrive?
[r] That’s right. When I arrived, there was no one there. So I was… I was in the provinces. They sent us to the provinces.
[i] Where exactly?
[r] In Rennes. 35. That’s it. So I lived in a hostel for a year. Then they found me a job, to go and work in Saint-Malo. I went to work in Saint-Malo. Afterwards, my mother decided to come and join my brother in Paris. And that’s why we’re all in Paris.
[i] How old were you when you arrived?
[r] I was 16.
[i] 16?
[r] Yes.
[i] And what did you do in Rennes and Saint-Malo?
[r] Well, I worked in a hotel. I was a dishwasher. I worked for… for 2-3 years. Then I left. It was my mum, she thought too much about my brother. She wanted us all to be together as a family. That’s why we came.
[i] But you were… you were put in… You were sent to different places?
[r] Yes.
[r] Yes, that’s why.
[i] And where were the others?
[r] Well, my brother is still in Paris. He hasn’t left Paris. And me with my mother, and with my little brother, in the provinces. So, my brother is lucky, he can go to school. But not me. I can’t.
[i] Why not?
[r] Because I’m too old. If you’re too old, you can’t go to school. But my brother can. Exactly.
[i] So he went to school there, in Saint-Malo?
[r] Yes.
[i] No, in Rennes rather. But my brother, who also came to Paris, is allowed to go to school. In Paris, we asked. But not me. I can’t. I was too old.
[i] And do you regret that?
[r] Well yeah, because… I didn’t learn… Because I learned French, you know. I speak it fluently, thanks to my boss. Because I worked in a hotel. And he taught me French. One day, he showed me something. For example, ‘a glass’. He taught me that this is called ‘a glass’. And I had to remember it. The next day he asked me if I knew how to order a drink, he gave me a tickle. That’s why I memorise in my head to learn French. That’s why when he was teaching me something, I had to remember it in my head. So I wouldn’t forget. Even when I was sleeping, I had to… But I was alone in… I even slept in the hotel. I worked there, I slept there. Absolutely. But… once a month, I went to see my mother in Rennes. Because I worked in Saint-Malo. The train journey takes just 45 minutes. That’s why I lived there on my own, like a… Like a wretch. Without a family.
[i] You were unhappy?
[r] Well yeah, I was all alone. In the hotel, I couldn’t leave. In the hotel, there was nothing at all. No walks. No weekends. Work every day.
[i] And you stayed there for how long?
[r] Three years. Three years. And then I left. So, when we arrived in Rennes, my mother decided to come to Paris, that we should come to Paris. To join my brother. So, when I’m… I’m in Paris until now, I’ve been working until now.
[i] And where did you end up in Paris?
[r] In the 13th. Right in the 13th. Because at the time, in the 13th, there was no… there was no Paris Store. The Paris Store, there’s only a small shop. There’s no Tang Frères, there’s nothing at all. And I lived in the Helsinki tower. Do you know Helsinki? That’s right, I lived in the Helsinki tower. And I worked every day.
[i] Have you lived there all this time?
[r] That’s right. But I left the 13th a long time ago. After that, I lived in Crimée. I lived in Crimée for 20 years.
[i] You first lived in the 13th arrondissement?
[r] Yes.
[i] Then in Crimée.
[r] That’s right.
[i] And now?
[r] Now I live in Belleville. Because I have my wife, all that… I live with my wife. With my wife, all that.
[i] And… what was it like for you to come from Brittany to Paris?
[r] Oh… I like Brittany all the same because Brittany is… it’s a quiet town. There’s no fuss. In Paris it’s… We work hard. In Paris we work hard, but… Paris is good… for living. For being happy, it’s very good, because when you work hard, you’re tired, you can relax a bit, go for a walk… on the Champs-Elysées, all that… But not in the provinces. At 5 o’clock in the evening, you go home, and then it’s bedtime.
[i] So what about Paris?
[r] In Paris, you can go for walks.
[i] Where do you like to go for walks?
[r] It depends. It depends on the friends. Sometimes we go to the Opera… sometimes we go to the Champs-Elysées… We go for walks everywhere.
[i] Do you like it?
[r] Work is work. Walking is spending.
[i] And in Rennes, or in Saint-Malo, what was it like being a refugee? Were there other refugees from Cambodia?
[r] Yes, there are a lot of them there, yes, there is a centre for refugees. And all the refugees that Giscard d’Estaing, the President, brings in. They shared… they shared the… the refugees who go to Rennes, who go to Metz… It depends who wants to stay in Paris, they sent them to the suburbs, I don’t know what, there. But I was far away.
[i] But were you well received there or not?
[r] Yes, of course, of course.
[i] Were they nice?
[r] Yeah, they’re nice, every day, we have a canteen and all that, to eat. For a year. For a year only. After that, they… they found us work. We had to leave the… the hostel. So when we left the centre, we found an apartment to live in on our own. But my mother stayed in Rennes because my brother had to go to school there. But I had to go to work. That’s why I went down to Rennes once a month to see her.
[i] And when you arrived in Paris, where did you work?
[r] At the beginning, I worked in… In Paris, I worked as a temp… to get a job at Renault. I worked at Renault because Renault hires as it pleases. You see, sometimes for a month, sometimes for two weeks. Then I found a job in a factory that makes balloons. I worked there, I worked there a little longer. For two years, or so. After that, I… I left the factory. I worked in a restaurant. I worked in Montparnasse.
[i] What kind of restaurant was it?
[r] A Vietnamese restaurant. That’s it. Oh, at the time… In the 15th, it was doing well. In Montparnasse, it used to do well.
[i] You were a waiter?
[r] Yes, a waiter.
[i] And then you had several… the restaurant. There was a period when I was self-employed. In fact, I worked in the clothing industry. It lasted for two years. And I had… The house was… The house was demolished. Because I worked in the… the clothing industry, the flat was demolished. We had to… we had to leave. So, until now, I haven’t worked. I’ve been working in the restaurant until now.
[i] You had to close your business?
[i] Well yeah, at that point it wasn’t working anymore. That’s why I stopped, completely.
[i] And so since then you’ve been working as a waiter?
[r] Yes.
[i] Where?
[r] Well, here. At Chinatown Belleville. Since… since 1994.
[i] Since 1994?
[r] Yes. That’s it, so far. I’m still here.
[i] Is that where you can…
[r] Next door.
[i] … sing karaoke?
[r] Yes.
[i] And do you like it as a place to work?
[r] Oh, anyway, whether you like it or not, that’s the way it is. It’s a question of work. Even if we find another place, it’s the same. I prefer to stay… without moving. I don’t bother looking for work. And my boss, he’s… he likes me… That’s why I’ve stayed until now.
[i] And you live nearby then?
[r] Yes.
[i] In Belleville?
[r] Yes.
[i] How long have you been there?
[r] In Belleville? Since the year 2000. Since the year 2000. I lived in Crimée for 20 years. After the year 2000, since the year 2000, I’ve been here. In Belleville.
[i] You live with…
[r] With my wife. I’m married to a Chinese woman. Well, so far I’m still in Belleville.
[i] And do you like living in Belleville?
[r] Oh… Because… I like living in Belleville because I don’t need to take the metro. I don’t need to take the metro to work. Waste of time for nothing! So I’m close by, I like it. For work, rather.
[i] And do you prefer Belleville or the 13th arrondissement?
[r] In the 13th, how can I put it, in the 13th… for… For lunch, for dinner, you can find everything in the 13th. But Belleville is a bit… a bit different.
[i] Why?
[r] Because there was a time when there was no security here.
[i] Don’t you feel safe?
[r] No. Well, it’s OK now. It’s OK, now that’s it. It’s OK. We’re used to it. That’s why I stayed. In the 13th… It’s good in the 13th. Over there, when we… when we go out, we see friends, all that. And there, you don’t have to go far to eat, for anything, for fun in the evening. In Belleville, it’s different. It’s not the same. In Belleville, there aren’t any good restaurants. In the 13th, yes, there are quite a few.
[i] So what do you like to eat in the 13th?
[r] Well, Chinese. Well, if I want to eat French, I’ll go to the Opéra and all that, eh. I don’t want to eat French food in Belleville. Because… it’s not the same! It’s not the same.
[i] And… do you also cook at home?
[r] Yes, of course. Of course.
[i] You cook…
[r] But every day, I eat at the restaurant at work. Only on the days… Only on the days [when I] rest. When I rest, I have to… to cook at home with my wife. Oh sometimes we go out to… to eat. But mostly… we don’t eat much at home. Not much at home.
[i] Do you mainly eat Asian food?
[r] Yes. Oh, I like everything, you know. I like everything. Most of the time, if we prefer to eat Thai, we eat Thai. French, we eat French.
[i] And your brothers, do they live in Paris too?
[r] Yes, yes.
[i] What neighbourhoods do they live in?
[r] My brother lives in the 13th. And my older brother lives in… in the 77th.
[i] Whereabouts?
[r] In Lognes. In Noisy-le-Grand. Because he bought a flat there. And he’s there.
[i] And do you see each other often?
[r] Of course. Of course. Because my mother. My mother… There are three of us brothers. We have three apartments. My mother does what she wants. Sometimes she stays with my older brother, with my younger brother, sometimes she comes to my place. That’s why. Well, that’s why we always get together.
[i] Are you close?
[r] Yes.
[i] And… do you have children?
[r] Er… yes, I have a child that I adopted with a French woman. In the provinces. But they live in the provinces now. My child is already 30. He’s old enough, he wants to live on his own. That’s it.
[i] And your brothers, do they have children?
[r] Yes.
[r] I have my nephew… three nephews.
[i] How old are they?
[r] The oldest is 30. The oldest is 30. The youngest is 26. And my nephew, the great-nephew there, he got married, he already has a child.
[i] And do they ask you questions about your story or not?
[r] No.
[i] How did you end up here? Do you tell people?
[r] No, no, no, no. Not at all.
[i] You don’t talk about it much?
[r] No. Oh, we forgot about Cambodia. We forgot. I don’t even fancy going back. I don’t fancy it at all. I haven’t even… I’ve been in France for 41 years. I haven’t even set foot over there.
[i] You don’t want to?
[r] No. First of all, we’re not allowed to return to Cambodia. Now we are allowed to, but I don’t feel like going. I don’t feel like it at all.
[i] Is it too painful?
[r] Yeah, it’ll make me think of my… my sister and my dad and my grandma, all that. That’ll make me sick.
[i] And… have you been to the neighbouring countries or not?
[a] But yes, we travelled around Belgium, Holland and all that. Because if you go to Holland, it’s not… it’s not far. You can go by car. It only takes two hours, that’s all.
[i] But I’m talking about… in Asia?
[a] In Asia, no. I didn’t leave.
[i] You haven’t been?
[r] No. I haven’t been. Not even to Thailand, I haven’t been back there. I go to European countries.
[i] You’re staying in Europe?
[r] That’s right. I like Europe.
[i] Where in Europe have you been?
[r] In Europe, well I go to… Holland, Belgium. Because before… we had friends who lived in Belgium, all that, we used to go to Belgium a lot. We used to go to the Belgian border.
[i] How do you get there, by car?
[a] By car, yes. It’s not far. Then there’s Lille, we can go through there. And in France, I like to go to the provinces to take a walk in La Baule and all that. Dinan, Dinard, I like to go for a drive there. Especially La Baule, it’s very, very beautiful there.
[i] Do you like La Baule?
[r] Yeah. The sea, it’s… it’s big. Very clean. The scenery there is… very, very nice. Same in La Rochelle. There you go.
[i] And what are the other places you like in France?
[r] Oh, nothing springs to mind, I’m old now, I’m not going to go out, you know. I’m already 58, it tires me out to go out. When I was young, I used to go to nightclubs a lot, you know. When I was young.
[i] Where?
[r] Well… First in the provinces. In nightclubs. Then I arrived in Paris, I was in… I went to the Rex. In Opéra, over there.
[i] Do you like dancing?
[r] I did before, when I was young, I liked dancing. I like dancing. I like… having a drink with friends. That’s it.
[i] And your friends are mainly… Teochew, Cambodians?
[r] Teochew, Cambodians, all that.
[i] There’s a bit of everything?
[r] Yeah. A bit of everything, French, all that. There’s a bit of everything. Even Thai. Even Thai. Because I can speak Thai, that’s why. Because I lived there for seven… seven months, I learnt it. So… And I arrived in France, I worked in a Vietnamese restaurant. I learnt Vietnamese too. When I was young. It’s easy to learn.
[i] So how many languages do you speak in total?
[r] In total, I speak Cambodian, Thai, Vietnamese, Laotian. In Asia, let’s say.
[i] You speak Teochew.
[r] Yeah, of course, Teochew.
[i] Mandarin?
[r] Mandarin, Cantonese. A bit of everything. Well, I understand, I understand.
[i] And when you think, what language is it in? In your head?
[r] Me? Well, I think in… in Mandarin, rather. Because most of us… we work in the restaurant. We only speak Mandarin. French, Mandarin, French, Mandarin. Especially the Chinese, they do…
[i] And you, you feel more like… what then? Chinese, Teochew? Cambodian?
[r] Teochew, we don’t speak it much. Except with my boss, my boss, and all that. But… We often speak Mandarin with colleagues, and all that.
[i] And you, you feel more like…
[r] I feel that… Oh, I don’t care. I feel all sorts of things. But, how can I put it, at work, we have Thai people, Chinese people… There are Hong Kong people, we already speak three languages. We use the three languages every day. That’s why.
[i] But in terms of your identity, do you consider yourself to be Cambodian or…
[r] I still consider myself to be of Chinese origin. I was born in Cambodia, and my parents are Teochew. But… I am a Teochew Chinese! That’s it.
[i] And do you feel French too or not?
[r] French, it doesn’t appeal to me. It doesn’t appeal to me. Frankly, it doesn’t appeal to me. Because I’m disgusted. Because I… I applied with my colleague for French nationality. They refused me. But my colleague doesn’t speak French, I translated for him, he’s the one who got it… He got it, but I didn’t. It disgusted me, that’s why I don’t want to apply.
[i] And do you know why you didn’t get it?
[r] Oh, I don’t know, it’s…
[i] They didn’t give you a reason?
[r] Not at all.
[i] And when was that?
[r] Oh, it was… 30 years ago. I had applied, you know. With my colleague, you know, he… He got it, and I was the one who translated for him. He got it, and I didn’t! I don’t understand. That’s why. I don’t want to understand, I don’t want to anymore.
[i] You haven’t asked again?
[r] That’s it. Until now, I haven’t even thought about applying for French nationality, because… I’m a refugee. It’s the same thing! I live, I work, it’s the same. The important thing… The important thing is to stay in France. French nationality, or not French, it’s the same. It doesn’t matter.
[i] It doesn’t change anything for you?
[r] It doesn’t change anything. There are people who like having French nationality. But, me… in my opinion, it’s… In my head, it’s the same. It’s the same!
[i] Did your brothers get French nationality?
[a] Yes. Everyone got it. Except me. Even my mother. Even my mother. She’s 82.
[i] And they went back to Cambodia?
[a] Yes, they did. Yes. My mother often goes back to Cambodia.
[i] And they tell you what it’s like there, or…?
[r] Yes, she told me, but over there in Cambodia, it’s a bit… to live… it’s not easy. Today, in Cambodia, there is still no security. To live there, to go and work there, it’s even harder than working in France. So to live there, it’s… It’s a dangerous city. My mother says… she advises me not to go there. But we bought a house there. My mother likes hot countries. That’s why she goes back and forth. Because she likes living in hot countries. She has no health problems. In cold countries, she often has pain here and there… That’s why she prefers winter, she goes there, in summer she goes back to France. That’s why.
[i] And she goes there regularly?
[r] That’s right.
[i] And your brothers too?
[r] Yes. Oh my brother, it’s just to have a look around, that’s all. He comes back after a month. He doesn’t want to live there. My brother doesn’t want to either. He thinks it’s… it’s not a country… Anyway, it’s not a safe country. It’s a country where you can’t know how things will go the next day. That’s why he’d rather not go there. Besides, he has a house here, he bought a house in Paris. He doesn’t want to leave France. His children live and grow up here too. His children don’t want to go there either. My nephew, especially him… He’s a bit of a maniac. [Laughs] Because he doesn’t know Cambodia, he doesn’t want to go there. Even for a walk.
[i] He’s not interested?
[r] No. He prefers to go to… to Thailand, all that… It’s a well-known country. To Thailand, to… To Belgium, all that. To go for a walk there, for the walk. Abroad, he prefers to go to Spain, it’s not far… It’s not far from France. Yeah, next door, the countries…
[i] You talk very little about… well… never actually about your history, with your family?
[r] No. We don’t have any issues with the family, we’re… We like each other… We don’t have any issues with the family.
[i] But you… you don’t talk about the… the past, the past life?
[r] No. No, I’m not a… I’m not a chatty guy… who talks about this and that… I don’t like it, myself. I don’t like it. Because if I’m asked, I’ll answer. But if I’m not asked, I… I say nothing. I prefer to live quietly. That’s it. Besides, even with my friends while we’re having a drink, I don’t even say a word. I’m quiet over there, I drink, and… I listen to the people who talk. That’s it. If… If it makes people laugh, I laugh a little, that’s all. That’s it.
[i] You’re rather discreet.
[r] Yeah, I don’t like talking too much. I don’t like talking too much. It’s not my thing to talk too much.
[i] And do you have any religious practices?
[r] Oh, no, I love everything. I love everything.
[i] Do you go to the temple? Or…?
[r] Yes, to the Thai temple, all that. To the Chinese temple. Thai. My mother is a Buddhist. She’s a vegetarian. So… We often go to the Thai temple.
[i] Where is it?
[r] It’s in the 77. 77 over there.
[i] Where exactly?
[r] It’s nearby, what’s it called? I can’t remember how to… The place that… I can’t remember. But we go at least three or four times a year, eh. Because I bought the… the temple for my mother when… When she dies, we’ll put her there. We bought it there.
[i] And where is that?
[r] Well, 77, in the Thai temple. My mother likes it. That’s why we often go there. So my mother goes to the Chinese temple every… Every week. And in the 13th, next to her house, there’s…
[i] There’s a temple?
[r] That’s right. She goes there every week.
[i] Is it the Teochew temple?
[r] They’re not Teochew, they’re Taiwanese. Taiwanese. Teochew, Teochew, there’s only in the 13th, that’s all, right. But my mother, she goes… she doesn’t like it there.
[i] Oh, really, why not?
[r] I don’t know. I don’t know. She’s used to the Taiwanese temple. That’s why she goes… She goes often, every… every week, she goes there to do the prayers and all that. Especially if there are festivals. She goes there to help… to do a little work, all that…
[i] Does it do her good?
[r] Yes. She likes it. She likes it. Well, my mother… she’s 82, she can’t move around too much, after all. But she likes it, she says it’s… She feels good, she likes to move around. That’s why, well, I let her.
[i] And you, do you pray too?
[r] Oh, I don’t have time. I don’t have time. I work… I work every day. A day off goes by quickly. Not even time… Not even time to go and eat with my wife… I prefer to rest, it’s better.
[i] Do you rest?
[r] Yes. At home, I rest… In the morning, we go down to the café, to drink a… To drink coffee, we see friends, chat a bit, then we go back home. Sleepy time! Oh, I don’t go out… I haven’t even left Belleville since the year 2000. Since the year 2000! Can you believe it? I haven’t left Belleville! Apart from here, at the metro. Work, home, and at the metro, over there, Paris Store, to buy something to eat. That’s it.
[i] Since the year 2000, the neighbourhood has changed a lot?
[r] Yes. Yes, yes.
[i] There are a lot of young people now who come out to Belleville.
[r] There was a time, yes. A time, yes. A time, I lived in the neighbourhood, there weren’t many council flats. Council flats there, for… There weren’t many Chinese. That means that the Wenzhou people, all that… Then there were a lot of people from Wenzhou. That’s why, there was a time, we always go out, there’s an attack after. That’s why we don’t go out often. That’s it.
But there are a lot of new bars and new restaurants that have opened.
Oh no, that’s… that’s later. That’s after 10 years. Even before… How can I put it, the President, he wasn’t there yet when I arrived. In Belleville. The President wasn’t there, eh, the President. The President is later. You see that big restaurant there? The restaurant where I’ve been working until now. It opened in 1988. I arrived in 1994. It was a time when karaoke bars were doing well, that’s why there were people there.
[i] And who comes to the restaurant to sing karaoke?
Well, now? Now it’s French people, Europeans. There aren’t many Chinese. Only… At the weekend, there are only Europeans. We work with Europeans. But before, before, when we started the karaoke, we worked a lot with Chinese people. Every day, always, packed, packed. Well now, the Chinese, that’s it, they’ve left. It’s not the same. There was a time when there were three places. Three karaoke bars here. But now… Now there’s only us left.
[i] The others, they closed?
[r] Well yeah, they went bankrupt. They’re all bankrupt.
[i] Is that one doing well?
[r] Yes, there are Europeans, we… The restaurant is… it’s well known, you know! Even the Europeans who live far away… they live 200 km away, they come here for an evening, that’s all. They drive for…
[i] And what do they like, then?
[r] Well… Especially the… the music. We have all the music you need. And the sound of the music, in our place, is not bad. That’s it.
[i] And… even there during the summer, is it busy?
[r] No, not in the summer. Not very busy.
[i] It’s quieter?
[r] It’s quieter. Two months. July and August. There are a lot fewer people.
[i] And it’s open anyway?
[r] We never used to close. For the last two years, my boss has decided to close in August. That’s why we have time to rest.
[i] So you’re on holiday?
[r] No, not at all. There’s still a week to go. One more week.
[i] And do you ever sing?
[r] Well yes… We sing often. Often, discreetly. The problem is that when there are customers, we’re not allowed to sing. That’s the rule of the… of the restaurant. And when… When there are no customers, oh… we have a little fun. For 5 minutes, 10 minutes. [Laughter]
[i] And what do you like to sing?
[r] Oh, in Chinese, in French… But I don’t know any in English, I don’t speak English. For example, what kind of songs do you like to sing?
[r] It depends. I prefer… I prefer songs from the 70s, rather.
[i] For example?
[r] Because the new ones now… the songs, they’re a bit difficult. Maybe I’m a bit… a bit old… I’m not used to singing the new songs like the young people do. I don’t know what they sing about. It’s not like the 70s, it’s not the same. They were soft songs. But now, they’re songs that… I don’t know, it’s like he’s talking. It’s not singing, it’s more like talking. [Laughter] That’s why I don’t like it!
[i] And… What do you like about the 70s? For example, singers, male or female?
[r] Oh, there are lots of singers. There aren’t many male singers, but there are female singers. We especially like Hong Kong singers.
[i] Yeah?
[r] That’s right.
[i] Who? Who, for example?
[r] Law Man. Tsui Siu-Fung. Mui Yim-Fong.
[i] So they’re songs in Cantonese?
[r] In Cantonese. But Tsui Siu-Fung also sings in Mandarin. Same with Law Man. It’s the same. They also sing in Mandarin.
[i] And is this music that you’ve already discovered, that you already knew before or did you get to know it here?
[r] Oh no, we got to know them here, rather.
[i] You got to know these songs here?
[r] Yeah. Because at the time, I was still young. [Laughter] I was still young. That was when we arrived in France. We got to know them in France. And we often watched… Chinese, Hong Kong… soaps. That’s it. There are singing programmes, all that, in Hong Kong, all that. At the time, it was on cassette. We rented the cassettes to watch it. Well, she likes to sing in Cantonese too. But… Unfortunately, we can’t read much Chinese. Because I only studied Chinese for a year. And after that, it was banned. I didn’t learn Chinese.
[i] So you can speak it, but you can’t write it?
[r] No. No. For… Until now, to read, well I… I can read quite… Quite well. But to write, hard, hard, hard. I can’t write. To read, it’s OK. Because we often learn by… watching Chinese soap operas. And you learn at the same time, you know, talking about your language, all that… But now, most of the soap operas we see on the internet are… they’re in Mandarin. French films, all that… I don’t like them much.
[i] You don’t watch French films?
[r] No. Not even on TV.
[i] Do you watch the news?
[r] The news, every day in Chinese, here. Because at home, we have Freebox. We only watch Chinese, not French.
[i] You don’t watch the news in French?
[r] Yes, in the morning, at the café. At the café, in the morning. Every day, we watch it.
[i] Are you interested in politics in France?
[r] Oh no, I’m not interested at all. It bores me. I don’t even like… I don’t like talking about it either. I’ll be honest with you, I don’t like talking about politics either. Even Chinese politics, politics… I don’t like talking about any kind of politics. I like talking about the present we’re living in. The present. That’s what I’m interested in talking about. But politics, that’s… people who do nothing, that’s why they like talking about politics. Not me. I prefer to talk about the next day, how we’re going to… how we’re going to earn a living, that’s all. Why talk about politics? It’s pointless. They’re old people with nothing to do, chatterboxes… Talking politics, this that, this that… It’s pointless.
[i] And… Before coming from France, did you… How did you imagine life in France?
[r] Well, I was young, I didn’t even think about it, you know. I only know that my mother, my mother brought us here, we followed her… the mum, that’s all. You don’t think about France, what it’s like…
[i] And so, when you arrived, you were… Were you surprised by… the habits of the French?
[r] But you know, because we lived in the refugee camp for 7 months, we were used to being… being… a bit sad in the camps. Even when we arrived in France, it was the same. We lived in the hostel, we didn’t go out anywhere, it was the same. It was the day we found work that we left… the hostel, that’s where we had fun. That’s it. Otherwise, we lived in hostels, all that… It didn’t appeal to me at all. In the hostel, you know that… There’s nothing to do every day except going down to the games room to play… There’s nothing to do.
[i] Are there… you… Things that have… That you found strange for example, or that… For example, cheese, have you… have you seen…
[r] Well… Cheese, all that… I was used to it because I worked in… in a French hotel, there. There was cheese every day. You know the French way… a starter, a main course, a dessert and cheese. That’s for sure. But I don’t eat cheese. Because I don’t know how to drink milk. I don’t drink milk at all. That’s why I don’t know it. When I was little in Cambodia, I drank milk. I drank milk at home. Maybe I drank too much and when I arrived in France, I smelt, I smelt milk… a bit… a bit weird, that’s why I don’t drink it. I don’t drink any milk at all.
[i] No dairy products?
[r] No. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I eat Gruyère.
[i] Well, that’s cheese.
[r] Yeah, cheese, it’s Gruyère that I can stand. It’s weird. Even Camembert, all that, I… That’s it, I don’t like it at all. Well, of course, when you eat pizza, there’s cheese. Well, I can handle it, there’s not too much smell. And for… For eating whole cheese, in big chunks, I can’t do it. A glass of milk in the morning… I can’t drink it. I only drink black coffee. Not even chocolate.
[i] You don’t eat in the morning?
[r] No.
[i] Just coffee?
[r] That’s right. Because by the time we’ve had our coffee, it’s time to go to work. And then, as we have lunch in the restaurant…
[i] You do the lunchtime and evening service too?
[r] Yes.
[i] And you have a break in between?
[r] Yes, there’s a break. There’s a break for 4 hours. 4 hours break! That’s why we can… We can rest.
[i] And what time do you finish in the evening?
[a] It depends, it depends, during the week we… We finish at half past twelve. At the weekend, sometimes we finish at two. But most of the time now, it’s a bit tough, we tend to finish at two. Tend to.
[i] And what time do you start in the morning?
[r] At half past eleven. By the time we get to the restaurant, we’ve done a bit of preparation, then we have lunch, then… The restaurant is open, we work.
[i] And what day is your day off?
[r] Today.
[i] Monday?
[r] Yes. Yes. The restaurant, when you work in the restaurant, there are no public holidays. We have a day and a half, a day and a half. A day and a half off is already not bad. So we take our time to enjoy resting at home, instead of going out everywhere, it’s pointless. A waste of time! Tiring!
[i] So you have a week or two weeks’ holiday?
[r] Yes, we have a month’s holiday.
[i] Ah, a month’s holiday?
[r] If you like.
[i] So what are you going to do during your summer holidays?
[r] Well, I haven’t had a holiday for a long, long time. I sometimes take a week’s rest. At home. Two days at the beach, and that’s it. Most of the time, I go to Deauville. And I come back with my wife… to rest at home. A week is enough. If you take a month’s holiday, you’d rather go abroad, it’s better. Instead of staying here. But I don’t fancy it. I’m like a pigeon!
[i] Meaning?
[r] It means I’m not going anywhere. I’m not going anywhere. I’ve got a lot of family, you know. I’ve got family in Australia. Family in America. In China. In Taiwan. I haven’t even been… [go] for a walk there. I have my aunt and all that in Australia. My mum goes there often. She flies there for 48 hours. [Laughter] No, more like 24 hours, yes. It’s not 48 hours. My mum likes to [go] for walks. That’s why she’s making the most of it.
[i] And you, don’t you want to go there?
[r] I don’t fancy it, because I left… my aunt and all that, when I was little. They didn’t know me, and I didn’t even… know them. How am I going to get there? I can’t go there. I don’t even know my uncle and all that. But my mother, she phoned them often, we spoke to them often, but we never saw each other face-to-face.
[i] And do they sometimes come?
[r] My aunt, yes. My aunt, and my uncle… He has his family, he is old and he… He doesn’t want to move.
[i] And your brothers, do they… Do they travel themselves, to see your family?
[r] They do, my brother does.
[i] They go there?
[r] My older brother does. My younger brother… He prefers… I don’t know, I don’t know what he wants. To travel as he wants but… I don’t know what he wants. But my brother, yes he likes it. He goes away every year. My brother, my older brother.
[i] And what kind of work do your brothers do?
[r] Well they work… They work in a… in Orly. He’s a delivery driver. Both my brothers. Same thing.
[i] They do the same thing, both brothers?
[r] Yeah. One of them works at Paris Store. One of them works in… in Rungis, over there. Because… No. To work for… for ourselves, it’s a bit tough. There’s the crisis. We don’t even think about… about doing anything. I’d rather work like this to get through life.
[r] And you, what would you have liked to do?
[r] Me? I’m always in the restaurant.
[i] Yes, but what if you had a choice before?
[r] Yeah.
[i] What would you have dreamed of doing as a job, for example?
[r] No… Well… the restaurant.
[i] At the restaurant?
[r] Yes.
[i] So you like it?
[r] But yes. The restaurant. But my brother, he likes… He likes to do the market. It’s not the same, he likes to do the market, but I prefer the restaurant. Because I’ve known it very, very well since… Since… almost 40 years. That I work in a restaurant. Before, I worked in the clothing industry. It’s even harder, that Clothes, it’s… I worked for myself in the clothing industry. Then I stopped.
[i] And you… so you know how to make… You know how to make clothes?
[r] No, not me. I… only know mechanics. I don’t know anything at all. To iron, yes.
[i] And what… what view do you have of your own career? Are you… Are you rather happy with your career or…?
[r] I’m happy with… I’m going to stay like this every day. On my day off, I’m going to see my friends, to chat… To have a bit of fun… I’m happy like this. I don’t think too much, I don’t like thinking too much. It’s useless at my age. Even when you think, what’s the point? It’s useless. My son, he’s already grown up. I haven’t even thought about him, by the way. So… He lives his life, I live… my life. I’d rather spend a day being happy, instead of thinking too much. That’s it. I don’t think too much. I’m not a… not a man who breaks his head over it.
[i] And do you ever see your son or…?
[r] Well, he’s in the… countryside. But my son is a farmer! A real farmer! He doesn’t want to come to Paris. I’ve been asking him for… for a long time to come to Paris to see me. He doesn’t want to come.
[i] Where does he live?
[r] In Rennes. And he likes it there. He prefers the Bretons. Because his mother is Breton. Well, I said, ‘When are you…’, I asked, I asked the question, ‘When are you going to get married?’ He says, ‘Me now, for the moment, I’m still young’. ‘But at 30, are you still young?’ Young people, you know. You can’t blame them for anything. They do whatever they want. Well, I leave him alone. One day, if he thinks of me, he’ll come and see me. If he doesn’t think of me… that’s… I don’t ask for more. I don’t even want to ask. I don’t even want to ask the question. If I feel like it, I’ll go and see him. That’s it.
[i] And you haven’t seen him for… for a long time?
[r] Oh, a few years. Only a few years. I used to go often. I’m a bit old now, I… I don’t want to… move too much. That’s why I don’t want to go. Oh, but I’m going to go, OK. It’s… it’s not far. It’s only three hours by train.
[i] It’s an hour and a half now.
[a] On the TGV, yes. At one time… At the time, I was doing the round trip, the round trip, there… There was no TGV, eh.
[i] Are you attached… to the city of Rennes or to the city of Paris?
[a] Oh… More to Paris. More to Paris. Because… I was bored in Rennes. A little. In Paris, when… when you… When you’re bored, you have lots of friends. You phone each other, you see each other, to go for a drink, to go for a meal. Paris is better. I prefer Paris to… to Brittany, eh! [Laughter]
[i] And… Do you feel attached to the city of Paris? Is it your home? Do you feel…
[r] Yeah, yeah, I feel like I’m at home here. That’s it, I feel it a lot. That’s why I haven’t left. And I haven’t even thought about my country, it doesn’t appeal to me. I like Paris. I like it better.
[i] Do you have any dreams for the future?
[r] At my age… what’s the point of having dreams? Well, of course I have… I’ve had the dream of winning the lottery, the trifecta, yes. To get through life. Well, apart from that, nothing. I haven’t even thought about it. Everyone. Everyone dreams of winning the lottery and all that. [Laughter]
[i] And if you win the lottery, what are you going to do with all that money?
[r] Well, I’m going to spend it… Spend my life with my wife, with my family, all that…
[i] No need to work anymore?
[r] Well, yeah. There’s no point. You have to enjoy yourself. If… I win the lottery, I’ll enjoy myself.
[i] Do you play often?
[r] I play the trifecta, yes. The trifecta, I play every day. Every day. Minimum two euros.
[i] And do you win sometimes?
[r] Well… the bonuses. [Laughter] The bonuses. Every day, you know, when I’m bored, I go down to the café, sometimes when… sometimes when… when we’re chatting, we… we go for a walk with friends, we go to a restaurant, to eat, drink, all that… That’s all. You have to get through life, that’s how it is. Anyway.
[i] Are your friends mainly in Belleville?
[r] No, not all of them in Belleville. There are people who live in the suburbs, there are people who live in Belleville, there are quite a few anyway. Quite a few in Belleville. Anyway, I go down to the café, everyone knows me. [Laughter] Everyone knows me. Even… the old people, all that. Even the young people. Even the young people.
[i] Are you well-known in the neighbourhood?
[r] That’s right. Oh, I know a lot of Arabs, all that here. [Laughter] Oh, I’ve got mates, eh. I’ve got friends, real Arab friends, all that, eh.
[i] And among your friends, so there are… There are… a bit of everything… like origins?
[r] Yes. Laotians, Vietnamese, even Hong Kongers. There’s a bit of everything. Arabs. Oh, but I love everything. I’m not, I’m not a racist. I’m not a racist at all, I like, I like everything. Anyway, in my life, how I thought, in my head, that having a friend, instead of an enemy. That’s it. That’s all. I’m not difficult.
[i] Do you have lots of friends?
[r] That’s it. That’s why we don’t get bored. Even my… When we don’t go on holiday, we don’t get bored in Paris.
[i] You have your whole life… your social life, it’s there?
[r] That’s it. Exactly. That’s why I said that I haven’t left since the year 2000, I haven’t left Belleville. All the bars, I’ll go for a walk there… [Laughter]
[i] And sometimes it makes you feel good or not… also to leave? For…
[r] It’s… But no. I go to the bar to chat in the evenings when friends suggest going out to eat, I’ll go eat at their place, that’s all. That’s how it is. Getting through life. You only have one day. You only have one day, it’s useless. I’d rather enjoy this, that… Instead of going far. Well, in Belleville, there are quite a few. Even the 13th, since, for 10 years, I haven’t been in the 13th.
[i] You haven’t been there for 10 years?
[r] Yes! I haven’t been there. Not since I left. I used to go to the 13th a lot, it’ll make me think of the 13th. I used to go there a lot. And now I don’t feel like it. It means that I don’t know… it… it… it doesn’t make me want to move. I mean. That’s it.
[i] You’re in the right place.
[r] There.
[i] OK. We’re coming to the end of the interview.
[r] Yes.
[i] Do you have anything to add?
[r] Oh, no, that’s it, I’ve said it all.
[i] Thank you very much.
[r] You’re welcome.