SU_P_12

[i] Good evening [name].
[r] Good evening [name].
[r] You brought us an object, can you tell us its story?
[i] Yes, of course. This is actually a keyring, and I always keep it with me. Because this is the keyring I had from my father, who died when I was 4. So, um… This is a keyring that reminds me of my childhood, my family… Syria. And I really love this keyring. And here, there’s something else in the keyring, there’s a little piece called ‘Death Note’. That’s… from the cartoon. Because I work in the media. So, in the cartoon. And it was… I had this keyring from Japan. While taking part in an ‘anime’ [animation] event. So, both keyrings are very important to me. Because, this one is from my father, and this one, it looks like the success of my professional life, you could say… So… I kept… When… I left my country, I decided to keep both, to be… connected with the memory, the good times of my family… and my history with work, etc. And it gives me a lot of energy when I’m a bit optimistic… not optimistic, pessimistic, demotivated, etc. And I decided to bring this keyring.
[i] And if you can take us back in time… And take us back to your childhood… your neighbourhood… your home town…
[r] Yes, in fact, my childhood was a very beautiful time because I grew up in a very small family. I am an only child. And… I grew up with my mother, and in my neighbourhood in Damascus, with… my friends from… school. And… it was very, very good. We played a lot. We played video games, we went out to restaurants, to school, of course… we always spent time together. And my neighbourhood is in the city of Damascus, a place called ‘El Mouhajerin’, and it’s a nice neighbourhood. It’s not very crowded. It’s diverse. Because I am of Circassian origin. And there are my friends, of Damascene origin [from Damascus]. So we [lived] together like that. It was very, very good. We [did] lots of activities like all children… We played [football] We… went to the swimming pool, to the cinema, for walks, etc. And… It was a really great time for me.
[i] Did you also go to school in Damascus?
[r] Yes, school… I did all my schooling in Damascus. The schools were in the same neighbourhood, ‘Mouhajerin’. And I’ve kept in touch with my friends… since nursery school… I have… until now, friends from nursery… from… how do you say… um… high school, and after… school, the Baccalaureate, etc. And we stay… in touch… Even [if] I’m now in France. There are friends who stay in Damascus, there are friends who are now in Germany. So we always communicate on social networks, etc. I am someone who keeps… his friends. My friends, in fact… So I had a lot of friends from each period, and I have kept them all, until now. And I keep… the bonds between my friends, always.
[i] Was it by chance that you kept the same friends from your childhood, at school, then at high school?
[r] Yes.
[i] Did you also go to university in Damascus?
[r] Yes… we actually split up at university because each of us chose a university… or… how do you say… [a] speciality. But, despite that, we [were] always together, at the weekend… There are a few… parties, something, someone’s birthday, always, we’re together. And then there’s also a friend who, that’s the first friend [of] mine, since nursery, we kept… being together… after too… university. We worked together for three years because his father has a company that sells… medical tools… for… operations, so… I continued with my friend, together, in this company for three years. And I was… I… actually started my professional life.
[i] But that was before… after university, or…?
[r] That was after… university. Yes…
[i] And what did you study?
[r] I studied… business administration. And then straight away, I started working with my friend in the medical field.
[i] For how long?
[r] Er… three years, and then I… I told myself that… I had to change because, in fact, the company was… a ‘business family’, quite small. So, there is… a point… [at which] we arrive [where] we decide, we decide that… we must now go to the next stage. So, by chance, I changed, in the field of the media. It was a very well-known company in the Arab world, a television channel for children called ‘Spacetoon’. And I started working with ‘Spacetoon’. In my childhood, it was my television, my favourite channel. I watched all the programmes, all the cartoons, etc. in Arabic. And it was by chance [that] I joined this company. I worked there [for] twelve years.
[i] In Damascus?
[r] In Damascus, yes.
[i] And then?
[r] After… In 2011, in fact, the Syrian revolution began, and I kept my job with ‘Spacetoon’. But in 2015, I left Syria because it was dangerous for me. I am a political refugee, etc. So I left my country [for] France.
[i] So now we’re talking about your departure, then?
[a] Yes, OK, actually…
[i] What were the reasons, actually?
[a] It was also by chance, because I made some videos with my friends, together, against the regime, funny… something comedic… We had done that before, since 2012, 2013… But, in 2015, we knew that this video [was] going to be, how do you say, known [by] the secret police. So I sensed the danger. And because of this danger, I decided to leave my country, because I saw that friends had been kidnapped from prisons. And France was also in fact by chance. Because, during my work with ‘Spacetoon’, always, twice a… [year] I’ll… I went to Cannes, to take part in [the] television festival in Cannes. So, I [already had] the visa, and I was lucky to have the visa, and it was a very, very… how do you say, good luck for me, to leave my country. Because for other people, there is no choice… It’s either Lebanon or Jordan, etc. But for me, I decided, OK, I know a little bit about France from my trip. So, France is a country that respects the right to freedom of expression, the right to live. And I said to myself, OK, I’m really going to turn over a new leaf now, and start a new chapter in my life.
[i] So, you have already visited France before?
[r] Yes, yes… Several times, since 2000, I think, 2005, until 2015, every year, at least twice. Yes..
[i] And you didn’t encounter any difficulties when you applied to be a refugee in France?
[r] In fact, the image, compared to, like, a ‘tourist’ or a ‘business’ trip for a week, ten days, is really totally different from the image of an asylum seeker and the administrative procedures… Because, when you are, as in a ‘business trip’, quote unquote, you don’t think about [the] papers, etc. OK, I have my visa [card], there are professional activities for a few days, and that’s it. There are a few days, for tourist activities. But when… I went to France, I came to France as an asylum seeker, I came with the visa in fact, short stay, short stay. But when I started the process, it was difficult. It was a shock! Let me explain why. I… I went to the prefecture and I thought to myself, okay, I came here at 9am, relaxed, okay, the process, I’ll apply for the papers, etc. But I found that there were a lot of people. And once [a] week the prefecture only accepts 10 people, even though there are maybe 100, 150 people who have been waiting since I don’t know what time we’ve been waiting. So, okay, I thought to myself, maybe 9am is too early. So, okay, next week I’ll be… maybe at 7am, and it’s the same story! And then, OK, 5am, and the same story. And I actually spent 5 or… 6 weeks, and in the sixth week, I thought to myself, OK, this is too much! And I went to the prefecture, an hour after midnight, and I was the first one there. And despite that, when the doors opened, everyone was fighting to be among the 10 people. But fortunately that day, there were a few officials in the prefecture who said, ‘Are there any Syrian people here?’ And I said, ‘Yes, me, please, ma’am.’ And I went through… That was just to get the file, to fill it in and then send it by post, to start the administrative procedures. So it was really a year… a rather difficult time… Also, because I was staying with my friends, Two, married couple. So, I thought to myself, okay, maybe two weeks and then there’s [a] place, I can calmly move out, etc. But I actually spent two and a half months at their place And it was difficult because they are a married couple, and for me, the house, the apartment, it was…
[i] Is he a member of the family?
[r] In fact, no, in fact, friends. So, they’re not friends… close, very close friends. So, they [were] very nice, but I was stressed because I can’t imagine it [being] like that! And the second thing is the language… Because I speak Arabic and English, I studied a little Japanese, but no French at all. And in the prefecture, it’s always French, it’s logical. So I decided, OK, when I talk to the officials, he tells me, ‘You have to do this and that, the paperwork,’ etc., he explains, explains… And I said, ‘OK madam, thank you madam, thank you very much’, like that. Because I knew that afterwards there would be lists or something to explain the procedures. So when I was at home, I translated and it was very hard for me. But step by step, it got better, actually. I think after that… You could say that breaking down the language barrier… language, life really changes completely. Totally.
[i] So, your first days in Paris, apart from the administrative worries, how did it go?
[r] [It went well] because I was with my friends, we did a little… tour of Paris, Eiffel Tower, Champs Élysées, Louvre, etc., etc. So it was almost like a normal day out sightseeing. And then we had dinner in some restaurant, I remember it was a restaurant near Bastille, and yes, I said, okay, life in France is beautiful! Yes, so until now too, I’d say, life in France is beautiful! It’s just the administrative procedures that have actually changed completely since I was here. Now the procedures are not the same, I [know this from] other friends. Now there’s an appointment with the OFI, that’s the first step. And even that’s a bit far, it’s not very close, maybe after a month, or a month and a half, but it’s an appointment. And then the process starts bit by bit, like that, so now, I think, it’s better
[i] And does the image of Paris correspond to the representation you had in your thoughts before coming?
[r] Honestly, like everyone else, like all foreigners, when we think of Paris, we think of the Eiffel Tower, the Champs Élysées, touristy stuff again. But I noticed, on my first day in Paris, I noticed that there is a hidden link, you could say, because Paris is a bit like something near Damascus. Maybe because, in ancient times, it was colonised by France. So, maybe in terms of the architecture, there are a few details, I don’t know how to explain it, but I noticed when I was in the streets of Paris, there is something, some positive feelings, there is a link, with the general atmosphere. And that was very good for me. I was relaxed, like that… Okay, I thought to myself, Really, Paris, I feel that it is a city [where] I can continue my life [in] Paris, yes….
[i] So, once the administrative problems are over, what does an ordinary day at [name] consist of?
[a] Well, it’s like this, I’m always someone who plans a lot. That’s it, every day I wake up [I take] a piece of paper and a pen, and I say, okay, what do we have to do today? This and this and this… My brain always works like that… So normally, it might be to do the shopping, read a few books or connect with my family, because I have… my mother stayed in Damascus, and my wife stayed there too. So every day, I talk to them. And also, try to learn the language. At the beginning, I… I couldn’t find any associations, anyone who could help me with the language. So, I had the ‘Lingo’ application on my mobile phone, and I thought to myself, okay, I’ll start with that, just to break the ice. And then, obviously, I’ll find some courses, or something in languages, for languages.
[i] And, how did your integration into the host society go?
[r] In fact, I can say that, during the year… I came to France in March 2015. From March 2015 until the end of 2015, I can’t say that I was really integrated into society, because of the language, because of the procedures, lots of procedures, etc., etc. But then, with… from 2016, I can say, I found an association called Kodiko, by chance, a Facebook group for Syrians, Syrian people in Paris. So I thought to myself, okay I’ve got time, why not get involved with the Kodiko programme. The Kodiko programme is a programme to integrate refugees into society, into work, etc. So with this programme, we had a pair of employees. I had a very, very nice lady from Total, and every two weeks we had an appointment in which she helped me with… improving my CV in the ‘French’ way, the cover letter, what my career plan was, what the action plan was, etc., etc. And at the same time, through Kodiko, I found another association called Infléchir. It’s an association of interns and students from the Sorbonne who give F.L.E. (French as a foreign language) lessons for refugees. So I started with this association, and it was an intensive programme, five days a week. Every day, there are two hours, and with that, I made progress with the language, because I started with level A2 in French. That’s a bit of a beginner’s level. And for a year, luckily thanks to my teacher, Marion, she was very, very intelligent, very, very professional, for a year, the aim, in fact, was to reach an intermediate B1 level. But thanks to her, me and two other people reached B2 level. And we passed the DELF B2. So for a year, it was a real success story for me. And after that, my self-confidence increased, I thought to myself, okay, I can do… how do you say it, succeed, etc., etc. And me, what’s the next step, etc. So then I found out that at Kodiko there is a status called ‘auto-entrepreneur’ in which I can continue to work with my former company ‘Spacetoon’. But not as an employee, as a consultant. I… talked to the management of ‘Spacetoon’, and I said, now, if you want, I can continue with you, but not as an employee. I can work as a consultant in the media, communications, etc., because I have all my networks with all the cartoon production studios in France and all over the world. So he said to me, ‘Luckily, yes, of course! You’ve worked with us for two years, and really… we want to continue that. As an employee, it’s going to be impossible. So, as a self-employed entrepreneur. And at that [moment] I started working. Now I feel that, okay, I’m someone who works, who… who, because… after university, I worked. I’m not used to staying like that, and asking for something. So, with the status of self-employed entrepreneur, it was really great for me! Now I’ve learnt the language… you could say… the language… enough, to, to… [to] get by in everyday life at least. And then I work, I have money, I pay taxes, etc. So at that point I said to myself, now I can say I’m almost integrated integrated into… into society.
[i] And then you had another training course? Or did you… Did you just stay…?
[r] In fact, here in France, I found something, particularly in Paris, that networks are very, very, very important. Because I started with Kodiko, through Kodiko, I know Infléchir, so the language, then… with Kodiko and Total, I found… a training course, two days, at MEDEF. So, with this training, I also met a lady who was very, very nice. And she was the head of the refugee integration programme, and through her, I… started to think about my professional project, because I said to myself, okay, now I’m working, I’m going to continue in the media field, communication consulting, etc., etc. But it’s not something stable for me, it’s not something ‘strategic’, you could say. Because I have only one foreign client in Dubai, and maybe one day the client will say to me, ‘OK, thank you very much, that’s it, we’re done!’ And that would be the end of me. So I said to myself, okay, it’s a new page. In my opinion, I’ve changed everything! Why not follow… a professional project in Paris that… resembles my passion. So I said to myself, what is my passion? And during my life, particularly in the year 2015, I noticed that I really like cooking. I love it, because you have to cook, always. I’m dependent on my mother and my wife in Damascus. OK, I get there… at home, there’s… food, etc. But in France, OK. First day, a sandwich. Second day, a salad, a pizza, but after that… It’s, it’s too much like that! You have to try something different. Or something that… I’m used to eating, like Syrian dishes. So, I tried to make the basic dishes, you could say, ‘hummus’. I don’t know, the very, very [basic] stuff. Sometimes I ask my mum, ‘How do you do this, how do you do that?’ And sometimes I look for something on YouTube… Pasta, I don’t know, ‘pizza’, not in the oven, but pizza… I don’t know… with tortilla bread, I don’t know so… And after that, I said to myself, okay, I really like cooking, why not follow that path. And through Kodiko, MEDEF, etc., I’ve reached the point where, okay, I’m really going to try to start my professional project in the field of cooking. And it will be… At first I thought, OK, maybe a restaurant, but there’s no money. So maybe a food truck. But then I worked out how much it would cost, and it’s too expensive! So in the two-day training course at MEDEF, I came up with… an idea, chef at home, – that doesn’t need any money – who makes Syrian dishes in the French style. And then I said to myself, okay, I’ve got an idea, I’ve got something, now I’ve got to follow it up. So networking is very, very important… Because each person, perhaps, will help to find another person who knows something else, another way… I don’t know… Training, etc., etc. And that way, I think… That’s the way to succeed in my opinion in France, and especially in Paris.
[i] And you followed your passion?
[r] Exactly, exactly. At the beginning, you have to find out what your passion is. Because I think there are two types of people. There are people who prefer to be salaried, who don’t like to take risks. OK, I’m salaried, I know that at the end of each month I earn this… amount of money and that’s it, it’s quiet. But the salaried path, I think in France, is quite difficult, compared to the ‘entrepreneurial’ path. Because ‘entrepreneurial’ is the approach, two weeks, it’s online. You fill in a form. It’s complicated, but after that, it only lasts two weeks, then it’s, that’s it! There’s a paper. Now I’m a self-employed entrepreneur. And there’s a tax system. It’s different, but it’s not as complicated as the salaried system. And then you have to find your passion, your professional project, and follow it… But it [involves] taking risks, because the self-employed person, maybe, unless he earns a lot of money, the other month, nothing at all. So you have to, how do you say, regulate, balance. And I chose this, because I spent twelve years with three-year-olds too, in the other field, fifteen years, as an employee. And now it’s a new page. I have to try something else.
[i] So you devoted most of your time to doing this training?
[r] That’s right.
[i] In the kitchen.
[i] That’s right, because… Through the lady from MEDEF, she said to me, OK, maybe we should look for vocational training. Because for me, OK, I cook for my friends, etc. here in France, but it’s not something professional. Cooking here in France is a very regulated business. There are lots of rules and things, and I don’t know, I’m a beginner cook, [who] obeys like that. So, thanks to her, I started until… just… at the beginning of March, I started a vocational training course in traditional French cuisine. And it continues until the end of May, with three months… three weeks of compulsory training. And this training is with… at the school of… a very, very well-known chef in France, called Thierry Marx. So it was a really exceptional opportunity for me! The training is tough, it’s very, very intensive. It’s actually the same two-year course at the ‘normal’ culinary school, so to speak. But it’s, how do you say it in French… maybe more condensed! I don’t know if you can say condensed or intensive in two months. So it’s really very hard! But I’m really very optimistic, very happy with this course.
[i] And how do French and Syrian cuisines differ?
[r] In fact, it’s… very different because, in terms of ingredients, Syrian cuisine is quite… how do you say it? quite… simple, you could say, quite simple, especially [in] terms of [the] presentation of the dishes, there’s nothing exceptional. But in France, I noticed, wahoo! It’s when you see a dish in a restaurant, quote unquote, ‘gastro’, it’s… it’s really a… How do you say it? Maybe in English, ‘peace of art’. It’s… It’s… wow! So I really like it. And I thought to myself, why not bring traditional Syrian dishes, but in the French way, like that, for people, not for Syrian people or foreign people, for French people and in particular, I say… my client, my future clients, are the ‘bobos’, who like… who like to try something different, who like to travel, who like world cuisine. So… They are my future customers.
[i] The only difference is in the presentation of the dishes?
[r] That is the… you could say, the major difference, the most important, the clearest thing… But also, there are in the… the dishes… the… how do you say? the ingredients, the things that are mixed together, there are some differences, but I think it’s not very far away, at that level, because France and Syria are in the Mediterranean countries, so, like Turkey, Tunis, etc. Italy, there is something connected, I think.
[i] And oriental pastries are…?
[r] Yes, yes, they’re…
[i] Compared to French cakes?
[r] Yes, French cakes are amazing! There’s a lot of choice. I thought that cakes were always sweet. Where I come from, cake is something special, cake and sweet. But I’ve just found out that here in France, there are savoury cakes, cakes… yes. So, every day, there are things… new things… you know.
[i] So does that give you ideas?
[r] Yes, of course!
[i] In the future, with regard to your plan to… With regard to… your passion is cooking, what about getting into that field?
[r] Absolutely! Absolutely. Now, I have a few ideas, but they’re just basic ideas. But I think I need more experience. And for that, I thought to myself, after the training. My original plan of action was to launch my professional project after the training, as a chef at home, etc. But I realised that I need a network, and it’s not easy straight away, there’s no network like that. So, during the training, I came to think that it’s necessary, maybe after the training, to find a salaried job. For at least a year or two. In a restaurant, in a restaurant, either a small gourmet restaurant or a large one, to get on-site experience, to get the networks. To be connected with the market, the market, what the customer is, what the… new things are, etc. So, we’ll see. Maybe after that, I’ll look for a job. And at the same time, I’m keeping my job as a communications consultant until… I feel that the cooking path is now strong, it’s good, how do you say, launched. And maybe, at that point, I’ll stop communicating, consulting in communications. And I’ll focus 100% on the field of cooking.
[i] It’s clear that you have a very busy schedule!
[r] Yes, of course, of course.
[i] Do you find time for activities at the weekend, for example? What do you do at the weekend, for example?
[r] At the weekend, before training, I would always go out with my friends… to restaurants, maybe for a walk, just to walk, etc. to a bar… like that. But, afterwards, now, I’ve also started with the… before training, I started giving Arabic lessons to French people. I found an association, I really like looking for associations and finding activities. Because, in my opinion, that’s necessary for integration. So, I found an association called Causons, which gives… which has a great idea, in fact, I can say. Because normally, foreigners, refugees, always need something from French society. Either [a] home, or the language, or… administrative procedures, etc., etc. So, with this association, it’s the other way round. The refugees give lessons in… local languages, with… the cultural aspect. For French people who are interested in learning foreign languages. So I started with Causons, we did three days of training. And then now, for two months, I had a class, a course… Arabic language, oral expression. And now I have four French students. And every week, once, we have a meeting. I give Arabic lessons. And at the same time, when I give Arabic lessons, I give them in French. So it’s a, how do you say, ‘win-win’ situation. Because I’ve improved my French, French language, and at the same time, I give, I communicate with people, and sometimes I ask questions about cooking, etc., etc. So it’s interaction… social, you could say.
[i] That’s every weekend that…?
[r] Yes, in fact, that’s how it is now. So my weekends are very busy. But after the cookery course, I’m going to take a break and rest for a week or two, just relax and take it easy. And then I’m going to look for a job in the kitchen.
[i] And what about your relationship with your community of origin here in Paris?
[r] Yes… actually…
[i] What is the context?
[r] Yes, actually, I can divide it into two parts. The first part, when… you could say, 2015 and 2016, I made a decision. To be well integrated into French society, I told myself, I’m going to focus on creating links and networks with French people. Because if I stay with Syrian and Arab people, at this very sensitive time, I won’t be able to learn the language. Maybe I’ll know how… French society, etc., etc. In the end, when I felt that now, okay, I’m almost integrated, I tried to… approach Syrian and Arab people, and I have a few friends… And we still see each other… And…
[i] Does this happen in traditional cafés or in the homes of… your friends? Or do you organise parties?
[r] Yes, like that, like that, either with the Infléchir association, because there are a lot of people from different origins, Sudanese people, Syrian people, etc. So I created my… how do you say? my… community. Alongside the other community, French, etc., etc. For… That’s a strategy I came up with to be connected with everything. Not… 100% focussing just on Syrian people, or Arab people, no. I… [I] connect in parallel with many, shall we say, groups, friends. And each group, there are groups just to go out, etc. there are groups…
[i] So, it’s not just Syrians, in fact?
[i] Ah… just maybe three, four… friends. I am, because I am someone who… who… keeps… [a] small number of friends, but quality ones, you could say. When someone becomes my friend, it’s for life. Just like that. But, it’s not, for example, there are people who, maybe, [have] dozens of friends, or twenty friends, but it’s very, how do you say, but it’s not very heavy. But I prefer quality over quantity.
[i] And when there was an event in Syria, for example, or the news we watch on TV, or to discuss the next day… Or there was a… How do you get together and talk about that?
[i] In fact, I have an example, just yesterday, with the association Causons. We organised an event, every… last… every last… how do you say it? Saturday of each month, we organise a cultural event, [open] to the public. So, I was there, yesterday. And I… received, many people… from different origins, from Sudan, Afghanistan, Syria. In fact, at the event, I made two dishes of ‘hummus’ and… how do you say it, eggplant caviar. So, there was a… lady… who… was talking to me. She said to me, in Arabic, with a ‘Syrian accent’, She said to me: ‘Wahoo! The “hummus” was very, very good, thank you very much for that.’ Etc., etc. ‘Which city in Syria are you from?’ I said, I [told her], ‘Damascus, and you, which city in Syria are you from?’ She said to me, ‘No, I’m French.’ And I was shocked! ‘You speak Arabic with a Syrian accent, like me!’ That’s weird! What is that? She said to me: ‘My husband is Syrian. And I learnt the language with him, he gives Arabic lessons.’ Etc. Afterwards, we exchanged telephone numbers, maybe so that we could meet up with her and her husband. So, like that, I… With the event, with… [the] outings… I’ve expanded, so to speak, my network of friends and professional contacts, too.
[i] So now, if we’re talking about the community of the country of origin, Syria, Does this make you feel nostalgic?
[r] Yes, I feel nostalgic… about my country. But frankly, it’s not… a very, very strong feeling of nostalgia. Compared to others. For example, I have… I know that there are people of different origins, not necessarily Syrian, who say here in France, as refugees, who say, ‘OK, oh! I feel nostalgic for my country. I can’t wait for the day when I can go back.’ And I… I feel that these are… how do you say? Signs of… poor integration, in my opinion. So, for me, I can be happy with my life in France. But at the same time, I feel nostalgic for my country. For the moment, because of the ‘complicated’ political situation in Syria, I really can’t say that… There is a date, or a day, that we, that I know I will return. So, I have the attitude that, okay, for now, I told myself, my life will continue in France, maybe… forever. So… I am in this… You could say, ‘mind set’. Or attitude, like that. Because otherwise, it’s, it’s… I’m going to suffer. You see, I’m going to suffer. Waiting like… OK, now what’s happening in Syria? Is it better? Is it worse? Etc., etc. But I’ve decided… Stop… I have to stop doing that. Now I have to think that my life will continue in France, forever. And if there is a day to come, I’m sure that there is a day in the future when the situation will change. So at that point, I will decide, calmly, OK, my life in France is like that. And what is there for me in Syria? Maybe it’s not necessarily either staying in France forever or going back to… to my country. Maybe, maybe staying in France and during the… during the… holidays or… I don’t know, if I can make… …a plan there. Maybe I’ll… be between the two countries, why not? We’ll see. Tomorrow, with the kitchen, we’ll see… [laughs]
[i] But how have you maintained your connection with your country of origin?
[r] Frankly, I keep in touch through social media. Because honestly, there aren’t many friends or family members left in Syria now. They’re all over the place, in Turkey, in Dubai, in Germany. I only have, maybe, three… three friends in Damascus, and the rest are everywhere. But I keep up with social networks, I always try to be connected, not every day, but it depends. Unfortunately, that’s the… the best I can do for now.
[i] And looking at the suffering of the Syrian people, what does it make you feel?
[r] I don’t fully understand the… the…
[i] That is to say, the deaths, every day, from the bombings.
[r] Oh yes.
[i] The war in Syria.
[r] It’s difficult, in fact, it’s difficult in particular because… I have… two friends who… One friend who… died in the regime’s prisons. And one of them is still in prison. So… It’s difficult. And they’re friends from my neighbourhood, from my childhood. So… And also the things, the… the news in the media. It’s always… It’s really difficult! Because… Especially for citizens, normal citizens, who just need to live now, after… seven years, there are a lot of people who, okay, are either not with the regime, or are against it. They have… They just want to… live and find the basic things, electricity, work, etc. The… the… Not to be… In… In danger, etc. So, it’s really difficult. For me, I’m still, how do you say? I’m in pain. Inside. But, there is no, how do you say… There is no solution. I can say, I can’t do anything, nothing at all, now. So… It’s really difficult. And it goes on… The crisis… It’s catastrophic!
[i] So… What don’t you like about Syria?
[r] What I like a lot about Syria is… my neighbourhood, I like…
[i] No, what don’t you like?
[r] Oh, yes, sorry!
[i] It’s OK.
[r] In fact, I don’t like… I don’t like… everyday life, especially after the revolution. Especially after 2011, because I… I was there, between 2011 and 2015. That’s four years. So… At that time, everyday life was really, really sad!
[i] [A] On what level?
[r] All levels. We can start with… the electricity, it was bad. Every 100 metres, in the street, as I drive my car, there is a… how do you say? checkpoint. And always, you remember the war. In fact, always, at every checkpoint, you have to show your card, your ID, and… where are you coming from? You… You… you’re going where? Etc. You live where? Etc. And it’s never done in a nice way. That’s the second thing. The third thing is mortal danger. Just imagine, you’re walking down the street, and there’s a ‘boom’! Something serious. And we saw something like that many times in our lives. And always the news, always the atmosphere. Everyone talking about the war, etc. The danger of being kidnapped in prisons, if there’s anyone who thinks that… I’m against the regime, etc., etc. So it was really on the bases… Very, very stressful!
[i] That’s the effect of the war, but before that, Syrian society…
[r] Before, in fact, maybe… I can say the relationship, um… with… foreigners. That’s it. Not everyone is like that. But I noticed it when I learnt Japanese. We have a Japanese teacher. So sometimes we would go out… to… a restaurant, or to tourist sites, etc. And I noticed that… the relationship between normal people in the street, and anyone who looks like a Japanese person, like a foreigner. It’s not always nice! There are always… the looks, there are, for example, questions, like that, direct. ‘Ah! Where are you from in China, from…’ etc., etc. Or… People who [come] out of curiosity to talk, etc. The baiters… Like that. That… that’s something I don’t like. Because I’ve seen… with travelling to other countries, always the tourists, they’re well respected… Personal life, etc., etc. But, at home… That’s the thing, maybe… if we can… be… ‘positive’. You could say it’s because of… or thanks to curiosity. But sometimes it’s not like that. There are people who speak badly… about something. [towards] tourists, etc., etc. So it was something… Not nice!
[i] And what do you like about Syria?
[r] In Syria, I like… my neighbourhood, I like… I like my childhood, as we’ve already said. I like a few restaurants, because, with practice, you could say, you choose each time, OK, now… We’re going to eat shawarma. So, shawarma, there’s this… The restaurant there, the pizza there, I don’t know! ‘Pasta’ there, etc., a few dishes… The cinemas… What else? Life in fact, life… in Damascus, it’s… it’s not very, very fast, like here, in Fr… in Paris, you know! The rhythm is quite… slower. And it’s something… really peaceful. Ok, maybe on a professional level, it’s not… Good as it is. But, generally speaking, the pace is not very, very…
[i] Human values, that is to say, solidarity, the…
[r] That’s right, that’s right. The relationships, the links between society… people in society, are very, very close. Sometimes it has a positive effect and sometimes a negative one. Because, positive, it means… when there is someone very old, or… without work, without, etc., etc. There is always someone, neighbour, cousin, etc., etc. who… who helps. That is instead of the… how do you say? The… The task of… of the government. Because there is a lack of… How do you say? The… social assistance, retirement, etc. So the… social network fills this… What’s the word? This ‘gap’, in quotation marks. But… sometimes, that’s the positive. The… negative thing that… Sometimes, there are people who intrude into… personal life. For example, if there’s someone who’s single and… With… who, who at thirty, Maybe, I don’t know! The neighbour says: ‘Why are you single? Don’t you like children? Wouldn’t you like to [have] a family?’ He asks very, very personal questions. If you… ask these questions here in France, it’s, it’s [a] disaster, just like that! But where we come from, it’s normal. Married couples, why are you married, it’s been three years now, and… No children?! Why is that? That’s weird, isn’t it? Etc., etc. Now I look at it as something funny, actually, yes.
[i] Let’s go back to France, then. What do you like about France, about Paris?
[r] Ah! I like a lot of things, actually. Ah… I’ve just… I’ve… come to love… the rhythm of Paris, the rhythm of life, because it’s very effective on a professional level. Here in Paris, in France in general, there’s… respect… Professional life and time… for holidays, etc., are kept well apart. Now, OK, I’m at work, so it’s sacred. It’s work, 100% focused on that. And then, after… [having] finished work, it’s personal time. So… there’s no… someone who, OK, we have to do this job, etc., etc. I really like that… thing. And also, I really like the diversity in Paris, the diversity of the culture, the diversity of the places. For example, as we’ve already said, the… the ‘typical’ image of Paris, normally, in the eyes of tourists and foreigners, is always the… the tourist sites. But after living in France, now for three years, I’ve noticed that there are at least five Parises. There’s Paris Champs-Élysées, ‘touristy’, etc. Opéra. There’s Paris… How do you say it, ‘business’, like la Défense. Everyone just walks very fast, seriously. It’s the… that gives the… the atmosphere of work, of productivity. There’s the Paris of… Belleville, la Chapelle, the Paris, how do you say it? with [different] communities. Sometimes I walk down a street in La Chapelle and I feel like it’s a street in Damascus or in an Arab country, etc. And then there’s the Paris of the 15th arrondissement, which is the Paris of the rich, the bourgeoisie, etc., etc. The suburbs too, there are lots of different atmospheres. So… Yes, I actually like it a lot. At first, I was a bit… shocked, by the image. But now I look at it, I come from… to the point that, okay, this is Paris, this is all of it. It’s… ‘Parisian’ people, foreign people, people who… are of foreign origin but were born… in Paris. So, I really like this… How do you say it? [This]… mixture, or this diverse image.
[i] And in relation to the weather, for example, the weather, the lack of sun? The cold…
[r] Yes, yes, I’m someone who loves the sun. And I love summer. Maybe because where we come from… It’s always, maybe, nine months, it’s summer. So I can’t get on with winter, here in France. Especially this year, because it’s lasting a long time. So… In fact, when I came… I came to France, I decided to… apply for asylum in the south of France, maybe Nice, Cannes, Montpellier, etc. But, by chance, I had my friends in Paris who said to me: ‘No, why the south? You have nothing, no one there! Etc., etc. Stay here in Paris. It’s the centre, etc., etc.’ So in Paris, it’s… with Paris when winter comes, etc. But, again, I get to a point where, generally, ok, now, when it’s winter, it’s winter. I spend my time waiting… summer, that’s it.
[i] How do you see French society today?
[r] Society… It’s like… That’s a good question! French society… [It] is diverse. There are many challenges, in fact. Because there is always the issue of integration. And we saw it as a… very… important subject in… the presidential election. It’s really something that… I think everyone… All the inhabitants of… France, and Paris, in particular, are thinking about this, and asking questions… How should we go about it? How… What is the image of Paris? Should we… Leave the… doors open, for immigration or not? What is the role of migrants? Refugees, etc., etc. So, that’s… It comes as a challenge, but at the same time, in my opinion, something that makes society evolve, if… I explain correctly. It is, it is a challenge, I can say, challenge, and… I believe that… France will succeed with this challenge. I don’t know how? But it is, it is… an interactive thing now, between everyone. Everyone is asking questions: ‘How do you do that? How do you do that? Integration, society.’ So… But for me, as a foreigner, as a refugee, in my opinion, diversity brings richness to society. And there are many countries that are built on diversity. Lots of people… everywhere, working together, living together. Lots of religions, lots of origins. Building society together. I think it leads to respect at a social level. For… each other. That’s something that’s lacking in our… country. OK, there’s religious diversity, diversity in the cities too, etc. People who come from… People from, from… different origins, like me, I’m from… Circassian origin. There are Kurds, there are Arabs, etc., religions. But, because of… dictatorial regimes, at home, we don’t talk about… on this subject, these subjects. So, it’s always hidden. There’s always… Caution [caution]… How do we say it? There is always the ‘risk of speaking’, etc. But here in France, it is open. It is… freedom of speech, of expression… Interaction. And that, in my opinion, enriches society.
[i] So how do you find the view of… French society towards foreigners?
[r] Yes, in fact, from my personal experience, I really, I can say that I find everyone here in Paris very nice to me, especially as a refugee. Maybe now there are some French people who… on the contrary, who tell me: there are French people who… [are] not nice to refugees. But, in my opinion, with my personal experience, I have never… met anyone… not nice to me. Always, when… they… French people, here in Paris, communicate with… feelings, with positivity, especially, after… when they [know] that I am a refugee. They are… They are always interesting, interested in finding out what the story is in Syria, what is happening. What is my professional project, life in France. He told me, if we can give some help, some guidance, advice, etc. So for me, it was really great! Maybe for others, there are some ‘incidents’ or some time, negative or positive. But for me, it was really great!
[i] Your migratory experience here in Paris, what has it brought to your personality?
[r] It has brought a lot of things, because in Damascus I was someone, an employee, always in my… How do you say it? Comfort zone. Oh, OK, I have my job, I have my house, my family, it’s always quiet. There is no challenge. There is no challenge to beat and succeed against. Here in France, from day one, it was always about fighting against, um, the challenge. And… If I had the chance to repeat my life in France for the last three years, I wouldn’t change a thing! Really. Because I feel that it has helped me to build my personality. I am really a different person in many ways. Now, um… Originally, I am quite shy, quite introverted. But here in France, I’ve… I’ve become the opposite. And I’ve noticed at events, when there’s an event, and, well, someone has to speak, in French, for example, about life in France, etc. I’ve… noticed that I’m always, OK, the first one! And I do, I speak. I… How do you say it? I just throw in something. And that’s something that… never do… in Damascus. So, I think that’s thanks, in my opinion, to my life here, in… in Paris. And it was great for me! Really, I’m very happy like this, and I feel that… my self-confidence is… [It has] increased… seriously, you could say here in Paris.
[i] And what contribution have you made to life here?
[r] Contribution… I’m thinking now with the Arabic course. I gave an example of contribution. Because I started out as a student of the language. And I’ve reached a point now where it’s… I’m the one giving. That’s in terms of the language, you could say. In terms of social life too, perhaps, after my professional project, I hope to do some workshops. And it’s not just to work and earn money. Really, I need to succeed in doing… something… with French society, as we say in English: ‘Pay back to society’. And maybe, it’s not now, later, but really… I think, I need to do that. To complete my… my 350-degree… 360-degree experience, you could say. From day one, when someone [is] just awful, with the language, with everything, I’m just zero, or maybe less than zero. And then [I’ve] succeeded by 1, 2, 3, 4, etc., etc. Like that.
[i] And, for this experience, in fact, in relation to the courses you give to… French people, how do they perceive the Arabic language? In your experience…
[r] Ok, in fact I have noticed that there are many French people who are interested [in]… the language or the culture. For example, before Causons, that’s… that’s how the idea of Causons came to me? In fact, after [having] finished my French class, we spoke with my teacher, and she… she was very interested in knowing the history of the Arabic language, Arabic culture, so we decided to do a language exchange. She is married to someone of Colombian origin. So she speaks Spanish, and we said, okay, every week, we’ll do a language exchange. I’ll teach Arabic for an hour, and you teach me Spanish for an hour. And we started with that, but then… because of the… training, I’ve stopped Spanish for now. And so, in fact, I noticed that, when I give Arabic to my teacher, my teacher is always interested in knowing. It’s not just learning the language. She always asks questions about religion, about society, what is it like compared to… in France? In Syria, etc., etc., so, also with Causons, I noticed that the… the students, also always, they would sometimes interrupt me and ask questions like that, about Arabic music, about… theatre, I don’t know… poetry, etc., etc. So, really, there are… a lot of people here who are interested in knowing. And I think it’s us… the migrants, the refugees… now, the… the ambassadors who bring, who, who… must bring or make the link between these people and our culture, either with language courses or with cultural events, cooking, music, just spoken interaction.
[i] And has this experience given you the… distance to look at your language of origin, in relation to a foreign language? How do you perceive Arabic today?
[r] Now thanks to… Arabic classes, I am still in touch with….
[i] For example, you read books, you continue to read? Do you have… writers, poets?
[r] Yes.
[i] Do you watch, for example, the Syrian channel?
[r] Unfortunately not, but… actually, unfortunately I don’t have time to read. I’m someone who generally likes to read, but, here, especially this year, it was very, very rushed for me, with a lot of activities. But I hope later on, I really need to… be connected with Arabic books in particular. For example, I have a French friend and I gave him a book, an Arabic novel, but written in French, in fact. He’s the writer, his name is Amine Maalouf. And the novel is called… Samarcande. It’s very well known here, and it’s very well known in fact, in France, and it’s written in French. I read it in Arabic… in Damascus; and, I thought that, that’s
[i] You read it in Arabic?
[r] Yes, so I gave it to my friend here in France, and… He read it and said to me, ‘Wahoo! That’s great!’ So, yes, that’s how it is, I communicated with Arabic and also, as we’ve already said, communicated with my friends who are still in Damascus. So, that’s it for now, but after that I hope for lots of books, lots of cultural things, I hope.
[i] What are your aspirations?
[r] On a personal level, I would very much like to succeed in my professional project. Here in France, and maybe after doing another ‘Cut and paste’, you could say, in Syria. On a general level, or the level of… Syria, I hope the war will end soon, in a way that is, you could say, pleasant for all the things that have happened. And in terms of the level, also, society here in France, I really like being… Because I am now separated from my wife, of Syrian origin. So without children. So it’s also a new page for me. I hope to find someone, why not, a French lady, or an Arab lady, I don’t know. But to build my life, like a family, a family here in France, again.
[i] So, do you think the opportunity could arise here in France?
[r] Yes, yes. Maybe, why not! We’ll see, it’s… It’s just hope now. But we’ll see as time goes by.
[i] If you had one wish to be granted, what would it be, [name], for example?
[r] What does that mean…?
[i] A wish, that is to say, ‘umnia’ [in Arabic].
[r] Ah! ‘umnia’, ‘umnia’. I hope… I’ll continue like this, in my life in France. I really hope maybe… Then, in the future, one day, to be… to have French nationality. When… that day comes, I can really say to myself that, OK, my experience is now complete. Like that, I started like that, and it was, suddenly, I changed my life totally. From someone who was stable in my country, who didn’t think about living in another country, and, after suddenly arriving in France, like a refugee, with… the image of ‘refugee’, in quotation marks, with all the things that… come with the word ‘refugee’. And succeeding, step by step. And ending up being like a French person, really integrated. That’s… Nationality will give me the sign that I am 100% integrated into French society.
[i] Here, for example, today, what can you bring to Syria?
[r] I bring, I bring many things, especially, especially social ties. In the… how people, here in France, how they live, how they respect others, how… they work, really… a lot, seriously, how… The… The role, or I don’t know, it’s… whether it’s a French word or not, the duties of… the ‘duties’ [responsibilities] of society, of the government. Because here in France, there is a system, OK. There is bureaucracy, there are always papers, etc., but there is a system, which is lacking where we come from. Here, there is no system. When you work, you may work without a contract, without a pension, without paying tax. The interaction with… the government, even with the police, even with… the civil servants in the… like the prefectures here, etc. There are no rules, it’s always personal. These are the things that we really lack. We also lack justice, there is corruption, there are many, many things that I have also seen the opposite in France, in Paris. So, these are the things that, one day if… I return [to] Syria, I will try to apply, I don’t know how. Maybe if there’s… if there’s a chance to apply it in a professional setting like that, why not? Otherwise, it’s just… talking, making comparisons, comparing the two to open the eyes of the people there, to demand their rights to improve their lives, etc., etc. So, I think that’s… [It’s a] very important thing to bring over there.
[i] And how do you see Syria tomorrow?
[r] Syria tomorrow is… Unfortunately, it’s not that ‘rosy’ picture, you could say. There are many challenges, many stages. Perhaps like my personal stage with my first job, here in France. There are many jobs that… Because we have to rebuild the country. [In] physical terms, the infrastructure, [In] personal, psychological, social terms, etc., so it’s not a… a day off, you could say. It really is something that requires a lot of effort, time, etc., etc. Maybe it won’t be our generation that sees the results. But we have to do something, and then maybe the next generations, to live a healthier, more… you could say, better life.
[i] So if we choose, are you pessimistic or optimistic about the future?
[r] I’m always someone positive, optimistic. But unfortunately, I can’t apply my optimism to something physical, with Syria now. So it’s just a feeling. OK, I believe the future will be better. But really, there’s no one, two, three, there’s no very clear plan of action for me. Maybe in my personal or professional life, here in France, there is always an action plan, it’s clear, ok, it’s the first step, the second, etc., etc. That’s the goal, that’s the ‘milestones’, etc. But in Syria, it’s just… We believe, we keep hoping. And that’s all for now.
[i] And for you, for example, the refugees, is it an opportunity for the host countries?
[r] Yes, I think so. Because, with the refugees, I think, the refugees bring a different perspective, a different culture, different things, and that enriches society. It helps to ask questions, to make comparisons of… of interaction. And I always believe in the interaction between different things, the results are always positive. It’s interaction, it’s not fighting, it’s interaction… you could say, nice, interaction, with respect. It’s always, always, it’s a rule for me. The result is going to be… would be something positive, for everyone.
[i] We’ve talked about a lot of things, if you want to add something at the end, the floor is yours, to say something, a feeling, a wish, a… it’s your turn to speak.
[r] In fact, I’m really very happy to be doing this interview, because it has made me think about things that perhaps we don’t think about in everyday life, and it has really given me, how do you say, ‘highlight’, in English, something in my background. And it has really brought back feelings from my childhood, something sad, something positive, etc., etc. It just gives me… a very brief experience, but it’s a complete experience. It’s like life. It’s, it’s with sad things, positive things, hope, challenges, etc., etc. So, thank you very much.
[i] It’s me who thanks you, [name]. Thank you very much for the interview. And good luck.
[r] Thank you very much.