SU_P_09

[i] Hi [name], how are you?
[r] I’m fine, thank God.
[i] How did you get to my place? Can you tell me how you got here from your house?
[r] It was a long journey, but not really. Using public transport here in Paris is easy, because you don’t get lost, and that’s the main thing. The problem is that it takes time, especially at the weekend. If the journey takes 30 minutes, but you have connections and you have to wait, it will take an hour more. Even if you want to make a short 20-minute journey according to the app on your phone, you still have to allow an hour to get there. Sometimes the buses are late or there is a strike or problems. In general, public transport is okay, there are traffic problems everywhere and not just in Paris. In Syria, the issue is catastrophic. The positive thing is that in Paris you don’t get lost and everything is available,
[i] Good. If you compare Syrian and French public transport, what can you say?
[r] At home, when we talked about means of transport in France or in Europe, we said that the metro allows you to cross a city from east to west in 10 minutes, which is an exaggeration. When I heard that, I realised that it was an exaggeration here. What surprised me was that there are connections every 6 to 7 minutes on average between two metro lines. Sometimes the connections are only 2 minutes, if I also add the waiting time because each line has its own frequency, the frequency of trains on certain metro lines can be two minutes, and on other lines, every ten minutes. So, your calculations are off. We also thought that the metro was ultra fast like a spaceship. In Syria, when people came back to visit, you got the impression that they wanted to show that everything was great in France. They kept repeating that they didn’t have the same bus problems because they had the metro, they always used the word ‘we’, they wanted to be more royalist than the king.
[i] In your opinion, when can a person use the word ‘we’ when they leave one country for another?
[i] In this situation, we have two cases. The first, the one we talked about, who is more royalist than the king, unfortunately we have a lot of them in our economically backward states; the second, they feel French after three, four or five years of living in France. For them, their lifestyles change and they become more French than Syrian, Eastern or even North African. There are people who go to France for a week, and then when they come back they already use at least two French words in every sentence. They no longer pronounce merci with the rolled ‘r’ in the Syrian way, but they pronounce it ‘Merci’, and they don’t even speak French.
[i] Are there times when you saw yourself as French or rather Syrian?
[r] A journalist once asked me if I felt French. I had been living in France for 6 years at that time. The question was in the context of naturalisation. She was asking me why I hadn’t applied yet. I replied that I would do so when I felt 100% French. I have to say that I am French rather than I am naturalised French. I must first feel French, as I saw myself as Syrian when I was in Syria.
[i] How can you express this feeling?
[i] I can’t describe this feeling. But at the time, I answered him by saying that it was about defending France at all costs, as I did for Syria, having fears for its interests as was the case for me for Syria, and feeling equal to all French people. I still don’t understand this feeling. Today, after eight years of living in France, I sometimes feel more sensitive to causes concerning France than many French people I know who have immigrant parents or French parents. I am more interested than they are in the integration of immigrants, for example. Once, I was talking to a French friend who believed that integration begins when immigrants or refugees are given a residence permit for 10 years or one year. For him, the problem is solved, but the problem is that, for example, you give me a residence permit so that I can move around as I wish, a transport card, a social security card. That way, I will remain [name of interviewee] the immigrant and the foreigner and I will not make any progress. It is true that you have done me a favour, a couple of important things to enable me to live in France, but you have not helped me to become an integrated immigrant or a future French citizen. The problem is that I will keep these services while keeping my language and preserving my original culture, which I brought from my country of origin; I will keep certain things and therefore I will not progress towards the French culture, language and labour market. Integration into the French labour market is very important and I consider it to be the first step towards integration, of course. Learning the language comes first, acquiring the culture is not possible in a day and is done by learning the language and integrating into the labour market. I always give the same example: in Syria, I was an accountant, but when I arrived here, I discovered that we applied Syrian accounting criteria, which are very different from French criteria. I don’t know if you know about it, but in France I am no longer an accountant. I don’t dare say it. I can say that I know about it, but I cannot practise accounting. What I mean is that integration into society is first and foremost about learning the language and learning to work. But unfortunately, that’s not really possible in France. I’ll give you the example of the OFII, which gives French lessons at levels A1 and A2 and then that’s it. The duration of learning there is limited. I don’t know if higher levels are taught there, but from what I’ve heard, the duration is limited to 6 months. I didn’t go through that.
[i] And you, how would you describe your experience with the language?
[r] My experience is a little different. I arrived in France in search of a qualification, or rather an education. The idea came to me after I graduated from university in 2009. I was supposed to continue my studies with a master’s degree, then a doctorate, but I had problems, which I don’t see the point in going into, and which prevented me from doing so. So I thought about going to continue my studies elsewhere, but where? As I speak Arabic, I started looking in Arab countries, such as Egypt, Algeria, Lebanon and Jordan, unfortunately Jordan is very expensive. Lebanon was very dangerous for me; at the time, going to Lebanon was the same as staying in Syria, because it was considered a governorate, a sector or even a region of Syria. I was accepted at a university in Annaba, Algeria, where the university is called Annaba, I don’t remember, and I was supposed to study in French there. Unfortunately, that year, Syria began to apply a new law concerning Arab students who now had to pay more for their university enrolment in Syria, and Algeria did the same. I would have had to pay too much for my enrolment, given my situation as an immigrant student who has to study and cannot work. I was also accepted at an institute in Egypt, the Arab Institute of Management, where the enrolment fees were not very high, around 3000 euros for two years of master’s and the same for the doctorate. I was working as an accountant at the Ministry of Higher Education, dealing with the files of Syrian students on scholarships in France. I was talking to a friend in my office, a scholarship holder called Khaldoun came in, and continued the discussion. He suggested that I go to France. I repeated: France! But the average monthly cost of living there is 1500 euros, plus the cost of my studies. He informed me that university in France was free or almost free, and that students have social health insurance included in the registration fees, which cost around 200 euros. For those under 28 and for those over 28, it’s free, because the state pays for it. Students also have other assistance and benefits, for housing and transport, it’s a package. So I discovered that the life of a student in France is easier than that of a student in Syria. Then I applied to come to France, and I was accepted, and that’s when the problems started.
[i] What are the differences between what your friend told you and the reality?
[r] He didn’t give me any false information, but the people who had already gone to France exaggerated. The first thing I had to deal with was the language, but for accommodation, people helped me to settle in a week after my arrival. I had a few connections. My first obstacle was to find an inexpensive language school. I found one that wasn’t very good, but it was good value for money, not very expensive, but not very good either. On my first day of class, I discovered that it wasn’t the first day for my classmates. They had been taking the course for a while, knew the teacher and had the book [that] I didn’t even know where to buy. The classes I took were more like conversation workshops. The teacher would explain a subject for 10 minutes in French, then we would do some reading and exercises, and that would take up 45 minutes of the lesson. Then, for the remaining 30 minutes, we would do a dictation and then exchange our papers to correct each other’s work. I was at level A1, I could only say ‘hello, how are you?’. That’s all I could say. The first month ended, then the second, the more time passed, the more depressed I became, I wasn’t making any progress and I could see my classmates making progress. I thought the problem was with me, especially since those who had arrived before me had told me that if I arrived and shut myself away in my room, alone for three months, then went out onto the street and spoke French, I would hardly have to make any effort. That was my first frustration.
[i] Do you think that everyday life in Paris and your relationship with it and life in your neighbourhood didn’t help you fill that gap?
[i] Yes, later on. Here in Paris, everything depends on the immigrant’s integration. You know, the friend I told you about who was given a residence permit, a social security card, etc… In my opinion, this has created several communities within the greater community known as ‘Paris’. For example, at the beginning I lived in a place where all, or most of the people came from Algeria. They were North Africans, Tunisians, Moroccans, but the majority were Algerians. We would go to the market to stock up on the food we were used to eating, like the bread we ate in Syria, you find a seller who speaks Arabic. And if you want to go to a shop like Auchan, Intermarché, Franprix or Monoprix, etc., you wander between the different aisles, choose what you need, and head for the checkout, the cashier scans it and tells you the amount to pay. If you haven’t heard, you look at the screen, take out your money and pay. Otherwise, if you haven’t heard or understood, you will learn a single word ‘by card’. And then you insert your card, you find out the amount to be paid and you enter your code. At that point you know that you are going to pay 10, 19, 20 or 50 euros. [laughs] The people around you are not going to help you learn the language on a daily basis. You don’t necessarily know any French people with whom you can talk, and even French and French-speaking people, if you want to talk to them, you need to have a certain level of language skills beyond ‘bonjour, ça va’ in order to be able to converse. Most of the time, they will ask you where you come from, and you will answer that you come from Syria. A few months after I arrived, the revolution began. Since then, the reaction to my Syrian origins has always been: ‘Oh my goodness!’ They were always waiting for my comment on what was happening there. Two years later, the real catastrophe was when I enrolled at university. I didn’t understand what the teachers were saying, I had to go home to study, not to talk but rather to learn my lessons by heart so that I could answer questions or do homework. I didn’t make any friends with the students, you know, they like to talk and laugh, but I didn’t understand anything, I could express myself on 2 or 3 subjects, but no more, I couldn’t laugh.
[i] Did you meet people who wanted to help you and get to know you as a Syrian living in Paris… or did you find yourself isolated?
[r] No, I didn’t feel isolated at all. On the contrary, there were people who wanted to talk to me and who were open. As I’ve already told you, the barrier persisted. I communicated with a few words. I couldn’t let myself go. This is what I call the underperformance of the State with regard to immigrants. The State has the means, but it has not done enough to prepare for the arrival of these immigrants, who may be more numerous than expected. Frankly, I don’t have any statistics, I haven’t read much on the subject, and I haven’t found anything. I don’t know what the State’s policy is in this regard; frankly, my level of information on the subject is close to zero.
[i] After overcoming this language barrier, what effect did it have on your life?
[r] Between 2010 and 2015, this barrier remained anchored in my head, I would say to myself ‘I am someone who cannot speak French and whatever I do, I will not know it’. I always went home to study, even after I finished my studies. I felt very far away, I would turn on the TV, I would understand a few things and sometimes nothing, and sometimes nothing, sometimes, when talking to people I didn’t understand everything. When I spoke or answered questions, I would say anything, nobody understood what I was saying. Until 2015, I remember a journalist who was doing vox pops, she was looking for people in the street who didn’t speak French, her aim was to speak to them in French, we spoke and she said to me ‘you speak like us’, I said to her ‘sorry but I’m a foreigner.’ ‘Can you tell me about your feelings at that moment?’ “Of course, I can.” She said to me, ’But no, you speak just like us, and you even have a more Parisian accent than me.’ As our discussion progressed, I discovered that she was not from Paris, but from a provincial town. She asked me how long I had been in France, and I replied that I had been here since 2010. She was surprised again and said, ‘Now I understand why you speak like us.’ The discussion ended. I thanked her. On the way home, I said to myself, ‘I speak like the French’, my morale was high, all the fear of speaking had disappeared, I am no longer afraid. Now I can answer unknown numbers calling on my phone, I can say, ‘Yes, hello, this is Ahmad…’, I can communicate like the French. If someone in the street has a problem, I will offer help. At the end of 2014, I went with the refugees to the prefecture, to France Terre d’Asile, etc. I helped them to deal with the authorities at Pôle Emploi, at the CAF (family allowance office), etc. Despite the fear that the civil servants wouldn’t understand what I was saying, these people were counting on me. I was afraid of not being able to cope and messing everything up. I remember a girl once asking me why I always said I couldn’t speak French. She said to me, ‘There you are, you’re capable of translating’. I was always afraid and I kept repeating to myself, ‘I don’t know, I don’t know, etc.’. Unfortunately, I wasn’t very well supported either, people would tell me that they didn’t understand, and that I pronounced badly, despite the fact that they were not French-speaking, they had learned French like me and when I spoke with French people, they understood me and I managed to get the idea across. Following the famous interview, I started to tell myself that I could do everything in French. My view of the language had changed, I understood more when I watched, I think someone had to tell me that I spoke well for the barrier to crumble. Then I shared a flat with French people for a year, I learnt a lot of details about French culture, there are verbs that you use at home, and that you don’t learn on the street, in a language course, or at work. I learnt little details like the verb for shaking a tablecloth, put that down over there or do the dishes… etc. I also learnt the names of many things such as cleaning products, and also everything to do with food, meal times, breakfast, lunch and dinner, the nature of each meal, what you do on a Friday evening and on a Saturday, where to go out and which restaurant? Seasonal meals and French dishes, books to read and the most famous French personalities in history, that reminds me of an anecdote. There is a writer called Montesquieu. But I didn’t know that when I passed the bus stop named after him, I thought it was Mont d’Esquieu. I later discovered that it was the name of a French or French-speaking writer, I can’t remember. I learnt all this while sharing a flat with some French people. This experience ended very early because each of them had to continue their life project elsewhere. I overcame these first language and cultural obstacles, which are the most important, in 5 years, but I had to overcome a third obstacle towards integration. I had to understand the labour market and its needs, and I still feel very behind on this subject. In France, even if you live surrounded by foreigners, you will work within the framework of French laws that regulate working relationships. There are many details that we don’t know, but we have to learn them. I’m working on it, but I won’t be able to do it until I have a real day job, from 9am to 6pm.
[i] Can you tell me about your experience of integrating into the French labour market?
[i] I did several internships in France, you know the break between noon and 2pm? For me, this break was useless, when it was noon, I had to go out on break.
[i] Why?
[r] For me, it was a waste of time, two hours drinking coffee, eating a snack and sitting in the sun. That’s why I considered it a waste of time. For me, you have to keep working until 4pm, which marks the end of the day, and only take a 30-minute break. It caused me a few problems at work, personally, I couldn’t eat at lunchtime. In Syria, we don’t have that kind of breakfast where you eat a couple of little things; a croissant, a coffee and whatever. We have a big, big breakfast at home, breakfast is the most important [laughs] and the most complete meal, even if it is very early, 7 or 8 in the morning. So it was not possible for me to eat at noon, 3 hours later. Here, the most I could do was drink a coffee during the break, then at 3pm I felt tired, but my colleagues were still active, I was feeling hungry. So I would hide a sweet or a small cake in my office. Here it is forbidden to drink coffee in the office, but in Syria we can drink coffee or tea while working. People were surprised at what I was doing. I was talking to one of my colleagues in the same office, and she advised me to eat lighter in the morning so that I would be hungry at midday, and that way I would gradually get used to the French way of life. Afterwards, I made the most of my break, which I looked forward to, to eat, drink my coffee and go out into the garden next door and lie in the sun. We’re not used to lying in the sun at home, I came back from my break feeling fit to continue working sometimes until 7pm, I felt able to work longer, and it improved my performance at work. Now I can’t work as an accountant but as an assistant accountant. The criteria required change and increase every day. I looked at the tasks given to assistants, they have about ten tasks to do in the office. At first, I thought that to understand accounting in France, I would have to buy 4 or 5 books that I would read without understanding anything in them… The accounting criteria are the opposite here. What is considered a big mistake in accounting back home is correct work here. So I decided to master the tasks of the accounting assistant, I started to find out about these tasks, watch videos on YouTube, and follow several pages on Facebook. For example, I learned how to do bank reconciliation in France, so if one day I apply for a job and they ask me if I know how to do it, I will answer positively.
[i] I would like to come back with you to the aspect of changing habits. You mentioned food and the sun, I would like to know what has changed for you in Paris?
[r] It’s hard to notice. But to be honest, I think I’ve become lazier. Back in Syria, I would leave home at 7am and not get back until after midnight. At home, it was like a hotel to spend the night, even during the holidays, I hardly saw my family, on Fridays or sometimes Saturdays, I was very active. Between work, studies, sports, reading and the training courses I was taking, I had no free time. Here, I can’t do everything I did in Syria. I would leave for work in the morning, go to university in the afternoon, then training, and in the evening I would go to the gym already tired, but I had to do sport, and I would get home after midnight. I would chat with my family for a bit, long enough to have a cup of tea, then I would wish them good night early enough to be able to wake up and go to work the next morning. Here, I can’t do all that.
[i] Why?
[r] In France, I can’t do the same activities for various reasons. I don’t have enough time, even though we have the same 24 hours in a day. But here, time passes more quickly, the time spent travelling perhaps plays a role, the high cost of living and the new demands of everyday life. I arrived in France about seven and a half, eight years ago, and I had to rebuild my circle of friends and acquaintances. In Syria, everything I had built up over 20 years, or rather 19 years, collapsed overnight. My circle of friends and acquaintances has become virtual; I communicate with them on Messenger. Before, there was only Hotmail and Yahoo. Here, everything has changed, you have to form real relationships with people, and start all over again, like looking for work and walking the streets of Paris to get to know it.
[i] Where do you go in Paris?
[r] Everywhere
[i] For example? What are your favourite places in Paris?
[r] There is something called the tourist arc in Paris…
[i] Can you elaborate?
[i] You start from the Gare d’Austerlitz, the beginning of the Seine, a little further down towards the François Mitterrand Library, and you continue with the Seine to La Défense. You take the metro at the Arc de Triomphe for La Défense, you continue along the Seine to La Défense, you take the metro from the Arc de Triomphe to La Défense, you pass through the most beautiful parts of Paris. I never get bored on this route, over time, I have discovered the little streets of Paris, because it was no longer enough to just go there. You had to get to know them. Since I’ve been living in Paris, my friends from elsewhere have been asking me to show them around. Once, my friend told me that he could only stay in Paris for 3 days, and that he would like me to show him all the monuments. I told him it was impossible to do everything in 3 days, and that we could visit from the outside, but that we wouldn’t have time to go inside. So I made some plans starting from the Invalides. For example, towards the Wall of Peace via the École Militaire and then towards the Eiffel Tower, etc. I had to be careful, for example, not to waste time going to the Eiffel Tower and then the Pantheon because we would have lost at least an hour on the metro. I took him to see the places close to each other on the first day. Then we went to the Place de l’Opéra and then the boulevard that leads to the Louvre. This kind of visit helped me a lot to learn about the history of these places. For example, the Tuileries Garden, which I thought was just a garden, but I discovered that it housed a château like many other museums that were originally châteaux and were later transformed into museums. I now know all the metro stations, everything about Paris geographically, but historically I still don’t know everything because there are a lot of names to remember. In principle, I have been all over Paris and I have seen several films about the French Revolution and everyday Parisian life in order to fill the cultural gap. In Syria, I knew a lot about Damascus where I grew up, which was obvious, I knew its history and its personalities, but today I no longer need it and I have to start from scratch. You have to realise that you are in Paris, which is a big city and the centre of the Île-de-France region. The Île-de-France region is home to 13 to 14 million people, not counting tourists.
[i] Do you think that the tourist’s view of Paris is different from that of the Parisian?
[r] Of course.
[i] Can you elaborate?
[i] That’s a pretty difficult question… I don’t know how to answer it.
[i] When you arrived in Paris, even if you intended to stay there, you had the gaze of a tourist. Do you remember your feelings?
[i] On the plane coming to Paris, I met a young Syrian doctor. We are still in touch but unfortunately he no longer lives in Paris. I didn’t have a phone on the plane, but I still… but I still wrote down his details. I was expected at the airport, and as luck would have it, I was to stay at his old place, and what’s more, I was in his old room. I told him where I was going to be staying, and then he asked me for more information to make sure it was the same accommodation. What I found out was a bit of a disappointment…
[i] Where did he live?
[r] In Fontenay-sous-Bois, where I currently live. He told me that he had stayed there for 3 months before moving out, in CROUS accommodation. I was still not sure that it was the same accommodation because it was described differently, but when I arrived I called him and he confirmed that it was the same place.
[i] What image had you been given of the accommodation?
[i] On the phone, I was told that the rooms were good, there was a washing machine, lots of activities to do, shopping centres nearby and a sports complex. It was described to me as a bit too idyllic. When I arrived, I discovered that the room was 7 m²… [laughs] and I lived in Syria in a 240 m² apartment. My friend, the doctor, told me when he came to visit me that he lived in the same room. I arrived on a Saturday evening, they had bought me a SIM card and I was able to call him. We arranged to meet at Place Saint-Michel, there were a lot of tourists. I was accepted at a university in Pau, near the Spanish border. I was supposed to move in a week, so I had to get to know Paris. He asked me if I knew any places I wanted to go. I told him that I knew the Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame, the Arc de Triomphe, the Champs Élysées and Napoleon’s tomb, but I didn’t have any more information. I continued, ‘Oussama, I want to visit these places.’ He told me that it wasn’t possible to see them all in one day. I asked him what to do. He said we would go to the Champs Elysées, see the Arc de Triomphe and finish with the Eiffel Tower. We started by strolling from Place Saint-Michel to the banks of the Seine, the beautiful river, then we headed towards the Champs Élysées and the Arc de Triomphe, then we walked to the Eiffel Tower, which disappointed me because I saw it much more beautiful in the photos, but I saw it for the first time during the day, and not at night when it is illuminated.
[i] Has this image changed over time?
[r] I like it much more.
[i] Do you think this is due to life in the city itself?
[r] No, I think so because I saw it regularly and I got closer to it. Even if I no longer have the beautiful, slightly exaggerated image, when you hear others describe it, saying that it is extremely beautiful, but as soon as you see it, you realise that it was actually made by a man. Generally, everything that has been described and said to me about France and what I have read and seen on TV is different When I arrived, I discovered that there was dust, rubbish, homeless people and beggars everywhere, there is also hunger, poverty and traffic offences. Not everyone respects the traffic lights… The same problems we have in Syria… I didn’t think I’d find them here. The staging is different, the beggar over there tries to provoke people’s compassion, but here, they sometimes have dogs. In Syria, they will never do that because people don’t like dogs very much, and they might run away from you. Here, people will pet the dog and give a euro. Ah! … I forgot what I was saying…
[i] I would like to ask you what things in Paris you would like to see imitated in Syria and vice versa?
[r] Here, what bothers me the most is… the idea of dirt linked to freedom, which is difficult to bear…
[r] When you get on the train, the RER and the metro, but especially on the RER, you see someone holding their mobile phone, and stretching their legs out on the seat in front of them, you don’t know where they’ve been. Then he will fold himself up in order to sit properly, so that I can sit down wearing my clean trousers that I washed yesterday in the machine for 3 euros. [laughs] I find it annoying because when he does it, nobody says anything to him because he is free, another person drinks and leaves his rubbish in the metro, and the people around them say nothing. In Syria, you don’t see this kind of situation because it is forbidden by society; here, that person is not free. Here, even if a person bothers you, you will give them a dirty look with a little grimace, but that’s it. We do nothing and we say nothing, even in the street, you will find people who behave in a way that I consider an attack on public property. For me, it’s the same, even if the means of transport are private property, they are still public and we share them. At home, even if you are a productive person, society will not allow you to behave like that.
[i] Well, what are the things you would like to see in our country?
[r] To stay in the field of transport, here it is very convenient, and I would like a capital like Damascus to have it, since it had 7 million inhabitants, not counting tourists and the suburbs. In my opinion, it would need a metro. We had a tram line, which was removed for reasons I don’t know, but we must have a metro and a train, we have only one railway line inside Damascus. There is also the problem of pollution, I wish the control applied here was applied there, although Paris as a capital is much more polluted by CO2 and greenhouse gases. But at least it is being controlled, unlike in Syria where the problem is getting worse. In the morning, if you go to Mount Qassioun in Damascus, you will see a huge black cloud hanging over the capital. I would also like to see electric buses like the ones we see in Paris now. In Damascus, we drive gas or diesel, it’s a disaster. These kinds of details are important. For example, libraries and universities. In Syria, we only have four universities and the fifth, the most recent, is the University of the Euphrates. The capacity is twenty postgraduate students, for 4000 enrolled in the first year. Here, almost all students, if they intend to do a master’s degree after their bachelor’s degree, can do so. Coming back to the libraries, I’d like to say that we don’t have any. I remember once going to the Al Assad library. I thought I was at the intelligence service. I was searched, they asked me for my ID card, they asked me what I wanted to do and borrow.
[i] How do you compare your experience in libraries and cultural centres?
[r] I usually went to the George Pompidou Library. They look at your stuff at the entrance, but that’s normal. You can find anything you want on any subject. There are a lot of students, which is also normal. I remember at the al-Assad library, I didn’t feel at all comfortable, there were a lot of people walking around me, they weren’t there to look for books but to keep an eye on us and see what we were borrowing. These people are part of the Syrian intelligence services.
[i] Apart from libraries, what cultural places do you frequent?
[r] I have never been to the cinema or the theatre, and it’s the same in Syria. Once I played a part in a play, I read the script, I liked it and I decided to accept.
[i] In Paris?
[r] Yes, it was in Paris. I took part in this play and I even recounted my first day at university in Paris, I described that day myself, and I played the part with an actress. The person in charge asked me if I had any experience in this field. I replied that I was learning. The actress played the role very well, and I was recounting that day, so it was real, I wasn’t playing a role. That was my only experience in theatre.
[i] Was there an audience? Was it open to everyone?
[r] I remember that the organisation sent us an email saying that we could invite whoever we wanted, we just had to send a text message with the person’s first and last name, and a lot of people came. I remember that the scene that people loved, it wasn’t just one person telling a story, it was really real. The idea was that I could speak myself, but I didn’t feel capable of it, so I acted it out. It was a bit laughable, but when I think back to 2012, it makes me want to cry.
[r] Let me tell you… a teacher comes in… he talks… he asks you to introduce yourself, and there I am… I didn’t understand anything, I only understood his name and that he was my teacher, so he asks us to introduce ourselves, he asks us to say where we came from and what we had done, and why we had chosen this faculty and this master’s degree, and what our professional project was. All around me there were only French people, they spoke quickly, quickly… I didn’t understand a word. When it was my turn, I didn’t know what to say. I had prepared two or three sentences. I introduced myself, my name, my surname, I come from the Faculty of Damascus. I hadn’t understood what ‘professional project’ meant. I didn’t even know the expression in Arabic. I started talking and saying anything. Neither the teacher nor the students understood, the students started to laugh, and so did the teacher, then he said to me ‘asseyez-vous’ (sit down). When he said to me ‘asseyez-vous’, I didn’t understand so he said to me in English ‘sit down’. The next day, the manager asked me if I understood what the teachers were saying during the lessons. I said to him, ‘Could you repeat that please?’ Then I said, ‘I didn’t hear you.’ He repeated the sentence to me three times, and a lady repeated the question to me once more… I replied that I understood, he said no… ‘You don’t understand anything!’ It may be funny, [laughter] I can laugh about it now too. But at the time it was very hard, I almost gave up everything,
[i] But you continued at university…
[r] When I went home, I told myself that this master’s was my only chance, I had to get it. My teacher told me that he was accepting me despite my French problem because my profile was good. He said to me, ‘Don’t disappoint me’. He said that sentence to me… and every time, I remembered the expression on his face. I told myself that I had to hang on, even if they made fun of me. Finally, when I presented my dissertation, he gave me 15 out of 20, and he told me that he had given me 15 out of 20 despite the spelling mistakes, despite an unconventional layout. He asked me why no one had corrected the mistakes. I didn’t know anyone who could correct my work for me. He told me that my dissertation was comprehensive and that he hadn’t expected me to sit the exams, and that I was the first to find a training course. I went to get the internship invitation signed, thinking that I was late, but in fact I was the first. He congratulated me and encouraged me to continue and to embark on a doctorate, but I didn’t continue.
[i] How are you doing now with your doctoral thesis?
[r] After the master’s degree, I had financial problems. I had to work because I had spent everything during the year of the master’s degree, I had spent everything, even what my parents had sent me. I had to live and I also had some debts, so I wanted to work at any price. I told myself, I’ll stop the doctorate, and I’ll start again in 2014-2015. It was a mistake. There was a one-year interruption, the professors asked me, ‘What did you do during that year?’, I replied that I had worked to live. One professor replied, ‘Maybe you’ll give up the doctorate to live, too?’ At first, to look for a thesis supervisor, I sent emails to universities, I tried to get in touch with people doing their doctorate, but there was no one in my speciality. I should point out that there are two categories of migrants: the first category is refugees, and the second is economic migrants. I am neither.
[i] Why?
[r] I consider myself a scientific refugee. I came to France to study. I didn’t want to live here, work here or earn money here. The idea was to get my master’s degree, then my doctorate, and then… Maybe also work in research, at the same university, but I wasn’t chasing money at all, I just wanted to study. Later, I realised that I had a language problem, then a problem finding work, then I stopped for a year, then I was told that I wasn’t on a scholarship, I was still at the same point, Last year, like this year 2016-2017, I went straight to the professors and asked for my doctorate, but I was refused again, mentioning this 4-year interruption. The professors pointed out to me that I was not a scholarship holder, they asked me about my activity during these 4 years, I replied that I was looking for work.
[i] Do you think there is a difference in treatment between refugee students and French students for admission to a thesis?
[r] I’m not sure, but from what I understand, many PhD students were refugees, I don’t know the subject very well. In my master’s programme, there were 16 of us, only five of whom were French. The others were foreigners, not necessarily immigrants, but foreigners all the same. I don’t think the professors made a distinction between foreigners and French people. Perhaps one or two professors did make a distinction. If we prefer French people, it’s because they have a good command of French and often receive funding. One can assume that a teacher thinks that research into the French language requires a good knowledge of French, or else it is someone who does not have a scholarship and who will work after university, so they do not have time to work on their research. All of this plays a role… I cannot judge, each teacher has their reasons, but I am sure that everything I have mentioned plays a role. I’ll give you an example: a Syrian student who arrived in 2011, she didn’t speak French, just like me, I’d been in France for 4 months, I knew this girl well. She asked me to accompany her to the university, she had a scholarship, and normally she would have taken the TCF, and taken French lessons at the French Cultural Centre. I thought to myself, she speaks French well and she just needs me to show her where the university is. We had a coffee together… that’s all she needed. She told me she had a B1 level, but she asked me to speak to the teacher on her behalf. I told her that I didn’t speak French very well and that we didn’t have the same speciality. We went to see the professor, it was at the University of Nanterre, I spoke with the professor, with my catastrophic French, I was obliged to speak in English sometimes. He told me that he accepted this girl for a Master 1 and Master 2. It was the end of February, beginning of March, then the professor said that she could not present herself this year, because the year was finished. He suggested starting with language classes before starting the Master 1 and Master 2, then the doctorate later. He sent everything by email, he even gave her an email address on the university domain, with the girl’s name… at sign… fr
[i] You were already accepted into the master’s programme? Why didn’t you apply for yourself too?
[r] We didn’t have the same specialisation. She had a scholarship from the Ministry of Higher Education in Syria and received €1500 a month, so the fact that she had a scholarship reassured the teacher. He thought to himself, this girl is going to work seriously, she’s not going to take time off to do other work, or work in the evening and come to class tired in the morning.
[i] What was your situation compared to that of the girl?
[r] I was self-employed, and had been learning French for 2-3 months. I wanted to do management, but I was still dreaming.
[i] What were your dreams?
[a] I told myself, it’s very simple, I’ll go out, I’ll see the administration, I’ll go back to see a teacher, I’ll talk to him in the same way, and that’s it, I’ll be accepted. It didn’t happen like that at all.
[i] Why not?
[r] I don’t know, I went to see several teachers, one teacher told me that I had to learn French first, another told me, ‘we don’t have an accounting department here’, everyone found an excuse. Frankly, I think that funding plays a role, as does the language, several factors worked against me. I even think that sometimes the teachers didn’t read the emails. Maybe they wanted someone to come and talk to them directly and explain their plans for the future, but I didn’t know any of that, I took too long to understand it all, I only understood in 2016-2017.
[i] Did you end up changing your approach?
[a] Yes, I changed my approach, but honestly I think it’s too late. I don’t know if I’m going to continue, it’s not that I lack the desire or the will, but I asked myself whether they really wanted me.
[i] If I ask you to describe an ideal image of yourself… after 3 years in France… What is that image?
[r] All I want to do is my doctorate. If I had started 3 years ago, I would be defending my thesis, I would be working in my field, wherever that might be, in the private or public sector, and I would have a stable social life.
[i] How do you see your social life?
[r] In general…
[i] Not only yourself… [name of interviewee]
[r] I [name of interviewee] … [name of interviewee] has two goals. The first is to finish his studies, the second is to work in my field. It’s not that I don’t want to work as a cook, I don’t despise this profession and I’m not saying that it’s not good, neither this profession nor any other… But working in your speciality helps you to always stay in touch and progress in your work. [name of interviewee] Three years later… I am a member of an association that teaches French to immigrants, I am a volunteer, I welcome people…
[i] What is the name of the association?
[i] It is called ‘Infléchir’.
[i] Tell us a little about this association.
[i] I can’t say much, it’s run by students from the Sorbonne Paris 4. The policy of the Université de la Porte de Clignancourt is to ask French students who are members of the student association who are studying literature, languages or even philosophy or political science or languages, to give French lessons to the refugees or to provide services. For example, helping to solve a housing problem can be psychological support, talking to people, organising outings, the atmosphere is good. Sometimes I am at the reception, other times I work on organising outings, I can also give lessons in this kind of student association. The students can give lessons, the volunteers can teach French to pupils who are taking exams. I have taught myself. Thank God, the pupils liked me, they didn’t throw eggs at me. One day, I asked to be a volunteer at France terre d’asile to help new arrivals, I did translation work for a lot of friends. But at the time, I wasn’t a volunteer, they were looking for people who spoke Arabic and French and were able to translate. I really like this kind of organisation, I like being an active member of these organisations.
[i] What do you get out of working with them?
[i] All the suffering I experienced when I arrived, the time, the tiredness, the depression I can spare others, imagine when I arrived as a student, I had to send my papers to the OFII, also do the medical examination, etc. etc. Honestly, at the time there was only the medical examination, now there are also language courses. At the time, my appointment was in a month and a half and I couldn’t find anyone to accompany me. As for translation, I really needed someone to help me translate and to understand and respond to the employee.
[i] In your opinion, why didn’t this service exist then, and why does it exist now?
[r] In fact, it did exist, but as I told you for the OFII, if you are a student, it is not at all the same thing as being a refugee.
[i] Can you explain that?
[r] From the State’s point of view, if you entered France as a student, you speak a minimum of French… at least you can manage to speak and study in French, even if I didn’t speak any French at all. Normally, such a service is not intended for a student. Let me give you an example: you’ve had lunch at home, I’m not going to offer you something to eat again, that’s not good service. This service is not for a student, this service is reserved for refugees, yes, it is a service intended for refugees, their rights… integration in France, a refugee may live for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, he may become a naturalised French citizen, while theoretically, a student stays for 4 or 5 years and then goes home.
[i] You wanted to stay for 4 or 5 years and then go home?
[r] Of course, that’s why I applied to be a scientific refugee. I didn’t resign from my job in Syria, I just took unpaid leave.
[i] When did you decide to stay in France and change your status?
[r] After 2012, my passport expired, the revolution had already begun, and I was an active member of the revolution, and at the embassy, I was told that I was called up for military service. In Syria, I had lived in fear for 9 years, I always found an excuse not to do my military service, and I went 2 years without a valid passport. I was unable to leave Syria after 2003. At the embassy, I was asked to return to Syria to do my military service, with the assurance that later I could return to France with a new passport, as if it were that easy. I was also told to get a laissez-passer here. Can you imagine? You arrive at Damascus airport with a laissez-passer, and you carry on with your life as normal… They were laughing at me. I decided to go to the prefecture to renew my residence permit, one of the conditions for renewing the residence permit is to have a valid passport and I didn’t have a valid passport. Fortunately, I was helped at the prefecture, I was given a receipt to wait for my passport to be renewed, 3 months, then another 3 months… then at the prefecture, I was advised to go and see the social worker to help me find a solution. It was the social worker who advised me to apply for asylum. At the time, I was very opposed to the idea. Why? First of all, I was afraid, and secondly, taking in refugees was part of our culture. Until 2010, Syria had always taken in refugees.
[i] Why were you afraid?
[r] You can’t accept something like that… you’re used to it, I don’t know how to explain it… you’re used to welcoming people into your home… all of a sudden, you become a refugee and someone welcomes you in your turn. In Arabic, you write from right to left, and now you have to write from left to right, how can I explain it to you… in our culture, it’s a shame, it’s psychological, and also, when I saw people in our country suffering and dying, and you are at peace, and on top of that you are asking to be a refugee in safety… You see, I was confused and I told myself that I shouldn’t, because in my culture we welcome people and now I am a refugee.
[i] Did these feelings change over time? After obtaining refugee status?
[r] After talking to the social worker, and as I was made to feel welcome at the prefecture, and I had my papers, I went to OFPRA, and to France terre d’asile, I also accompanied people in turn, I understood that being a refugee is nothing to be ashamed of. Many celebrities were refugees. I even did some research on these personalities to find out what they had done for the host society. I also read up on what the refugees did when they were here in Syria, and what the Syrians did when they went to Egypt, and what they are doing now. Being a refugee is nothing to be ashamed of. A refugee is someone who asks for protection, and when you live in an environment that accepts you, all these things become normal. There are even Europeans who went into exile 60 or 70 years ago. Here in France, there have been refugees from one town to another, or from one country to another. In France, people went to Morocco because Morocco was calm, they stayed for a while and then returned when the war was over, the same thing in Asia, in Africa, in Sudan, there was an Egyptian kingdom, in southern Sudan… the independent part for the last 6 years. South Sudan was a refuge for Africans, it was a place where everyone lived together regardless of their religion, affiliation or language. South Sudan is now an independent country. The most important thing is to live in a welcoming country that accepts you. No one in France asks you to go home, no one tells you that you are not welcome here, on the contrary, they make you understand that you can live with us and that you are welcome here. Before I applied to be a refugee, many French people strongly advised me to apply for asylum, to ensure my safety and to have proper papers. Being forced to return to Syria… death… war can be very serious, you are conscripted into the army and you go straight to the front to fight your own brothers and sisters and be forced to kill or be killed, you understand all that later…
[i] When you introduce yourself to the French and you say that you are a refugee, what do people think? Positively?
[r] I have never been obliged to say that I am a refugee.
[i] How do you introduce yourself then?
[r] When a French person talks to you, they ask you your name, what you do for a living, and when they hear that you have a different accent, they ask you what region you come from. They don’t even ask you your nationality, only where you come from. You can simply tell him that you come from the Middle East, or that you come from the south, and he will accept that. Of course there are curious people who ask you if you came as a refugee, curiosity exists everywhere. Sometimes the curiosity is so strong… they can’t help themselves, most of them welcome you, they don’t ask you any more questions. Well, often they only ask you your first name and your job, they’ll say to you, ‘with your accent, you can’t be French’, or ‘you haven’t been in France long’, and that your mother tongue can’t be French. They might ask you where you’re from, they don’t ask you your nationality, I’ve never had to say that I’m a refugee.
[i] I’d like to ask you a question about your friends. Do you have more French friends, or are your friends part of the Arab or Syrian community, or both?
[r] Both. When I arrived, 100% of my friends were Syrian, today I have far fewer Syrian friends.
[i] Was this change deliberate, or did it happen naturally?
[r] It’s natural, it’s integration… being well integrated into society obliges you… there aren’t many Syrians in France.
[i] What do you prefer? Do you prefer to be with Syrians, or with French people? Or do you keep a percentage for each?
[r] I can’t talk about percentages… 10% Syrians, 15% French… 30% Africans, mathematically it works, but for human beings it’s not possible to think that way. I can’t talk about ten Syrian friends, five French, it doesn’t work like that… Let me give you an example: in Syria, all my friends were Syrian, there were only Syrians around me. In high school, my friends were no longer the same as in middle school, I could no longer be friends as before with those who had not gone to high school, since I no longer saw them every day, there was nothing in common between us. What would we have said to each other when we went to each other’s houses? It’s the same at university, you meet other friends and your old friends are no longer your friends, you can see them from time to time, once a month… but not every day like before. It’s the same here. When I was sharing a flat with the French, we did the same thing every day: we woke up, we slept, we argued. I wanted this, you wanted that. I like sweet things, you like savoury things. In the end, we split up and went our separate ways. It’s no longer possible to see each other every day because it’s inconvenient. I see you a lot at the moment because we have a lot in common. Later, if you find a job and I find another job, we’ll inevitably see each other less often. Let me give you an example about my French friends. He is a computer scientist and I am an accountant, he will have computer scientist friends and I will have accountant friends. If I went to see him every day, it might bother him, it’s the same for him, so I repeat, I have more French friends because I try new activities.
[i] What activities?
[r] As I’ve already told you, clubs and associations, and also outings with groups on Facebook… These activities allow you to make new acquaintances, people who have time and want to get out and about… We get to know each other, we organise outings, we can go camping in the mountains, you get to know people who will introduce you to other people you might not see again, or you see them by chance. I remember in 2015, I met several people at a campsite, and in the end we all went our separate ways. We added each other on Facebook and exchanged phone numbers, but we never called each other. Then, three or four months ago, I saw one of those people on the metro, and we were like brothers, even though we’d only seen each other for a week. Later, we went out for a coffee together. With these activities, you can make friends even if… you don’t see them or if you see them from time to time or by chance. All this to say that your relationships and friends change according to your environment and your activities. For example, if you find a job as a baker you will have Tunisian friends, most bakers are Tunisian, or French, you won’t find other nationalities.
[i] Is it work that imposes itself on you…?
[r] Work, and studies too… Once, I did an internship in a decoration company… It wasn’t a company, it was a shop, this shop was in a neighbourhood…
[i] Which neighbourhood?
[r] It was in Seaux, on the RER B. This neighbourhood is inhabited by French people, the people who went out for coffee were French, they were my entourage for 6 months. It’s over now, I might bump into them by chance if I pass through Seaux. Relationships have no rules, you find yourself in a place with the people who go with it.
[i] Do you consider yourself an open person? Do you like meeting new people? Or do you have limits, I’m talking about here, France, of course?
[i] I set limits, but at the same time I am very open. Let me give you an example: one of my French flatmate friends went to boarding school for reasons I don’t want to mention. He will be away from us for two years, we can’t communicate with him, he won’t have an email or mobile phone… nothing at all… As he is an only child, he asked me to call his parents. Every week, I called his parents and we would chat a little on the phone. Later, I saw another friend of ours, I gave him the phone number of our friend’s parents, and I asked him to call our friend’s parents, and he agreed. I saw him later and asked him if he had called them. He said no, and that it was difficult for him to call. He said, I don’t understand how you can do it so naturally… you call… you invite, I can’t do the same.
[i] You mentioned invitations… do you invite French people to your house? Can you tell us a bit more about it?
[r] We can’t talk about invitations… [laughs]
[i] Let’s talk about get-togethers then…
[r] I’ve always had people over to my house. I’ll tell you a story. When I was sharing a flat with the three French guys, I had an invitation every week, I practically prepared everything, especially if they were people I knew, and even if they were their friends, I would tell them, we have to invite so-and-so or so-and-so or their friend, I thought I could show off some of my culture that way. Gastronomy is part of culture and even civilisation. If you have good cuisine, it means you are part of a civilisation… not necessarily, but it’s a good clue…
[i] How did you show that?
[a] For example, I made traditional dishes from home… Not just dry dishes like falafel, hummus, moutabal… no, we tried to harmonise… French dishes with Syrian dishes, the French main course with a Syrian starter or the other way round, or maybe just Syrian and the French appetiser or dessert. In Syria or in the Arab world in general, there are not three courses, starter, main course, dessert. We put everything on the table, it makes me laugh that we start with dessert. We start with fruit and finish with savoury dishes and coffee. Here, it’s the opposite. Once, I did it like we do at home, they liked it.
[i] Who were these people who came to your place regularly?
[r] 90% were mutual friends, or friends of friends, or my friends. There were all kinds of nationalities with a majority of French people whose parents are immigrants. They were born and raised here and know no country other than France. There were only four or five Arabs.
[i] You told me about the associations, did you invite people connected with the language courses?
[a] I invited those who came to my house to strengthen our relationship and to talk about something other than work. I always said, ‘Come to my house and we’ll talk about something other than work,’ and we can also cook for ourselves. I remember the falafel, the preparation of the hummus, the decoration of the plates.
[i] How did they like it?
[r] They loved it, they took photos of themselves cutting the salad, they put the photos on Instagram, as if it were a big deal… They cut the salad into tiny pieces, this kind of salad doesn’t exist here. Falafel was a miracle for them: you throw the mixture into the oil, it floats, and that’s it… they loved making it… When they saw restaurants offering falafel, they would say, ‘Wow… we make it ourselves, we know the steps…’ I asked them to do the washing up too, we made a knafé for dessert too, they thought it was very good, but too sweet and too fatty, so they only ate a small piece.
[i] Tell us about activities outside your home?
[r] I’ve already talked about going out in Paris once, a friend invited some people over… we spent the day cooking and went to the Luxembourg Gardens, we ate and played… we went out other times by the Seine, especially in summer, you can sometimes get to know people, share meals with them, you can even take photos with them, then it’s over… For example, I live near the Bois de Vincennes, I go out to listen to music or play sports with people who are playing sports , sometimes there are cultural outings, often they are invitations on Facebook.
[i] Can you give me an example?
[r] Sometimes there are lectures, usually I didn’t understand anything the speaker was saying, so I would attend, applaud, understand a little, go home a little more cultured…
[i] Did you think this experience was of any benefit to you?
[r] I have no idea… there’s a word I can’t pronounce… ‘eloquence’ [in French]. Last year, the Sorbonne organised a competition, I attended the final, it was people who presented what they had written and who spoke very, very fluently. That’s what I’m looking for in French: to be able to stand up in front of everyone, to speak loudly and be at ease, like when I’m talking to you now. A quick presentation, the introduction, the topic and then the conclusion in 5 minutes… speaking loudly, with a good accent… vocabulary that is neither simple nor complicated. I’m still not at that stage in French today. I asked specialists who told me that it doesn’t come naturally, that it takes time. You have to read a lot, you have to listen to a lot of French, you also have to write, it takes time, I’m trying of course… I’m an active member of several associations, one of which was set up to help refugees find work.
[i] Are you a member of this association?
[r] Of course I received an invitation to join the organisation by email from someone who encouraged me to become a member. I did some research on them and was one of the first to join. I went to see them… they looked at my profile and thought it was good. They were optimistic and thought I had potential. I went there once… and a second time… frankly, it didn’t do me any good. They teach you how to write your CV… My CV was good, my covering letter… I knew how to do it, they teach you how to present yourself and talk about your goals. I knew all that, my speciality is human resources management. I know all that very well in Arabic, and I have to say all that in French according to the corresponding French culture. Honestly, and I’m not trying to toot my own horn, but I know all that, so I didn’t learn anything, I just met other people, that’s all. Other people were able to benefit from it and even find work, or develop relationships, but unfortunately for me, it didn’t help me find work. I wasn’t able to make any connections, maybe because of my speciality, I don’t know… I can’t judge, it was just an experience… I don’t think it was very successful.
[i] Maybe you could try again with other organisations? I was once told about an organisation linked to Microsoft. This organisation organised a workshop for refugees. I registered online, two days before the start of the training, and then I cancelled my registration. I had looked at their programme, there wasn’t much to it, a morning conference, with of course a coffee break, then lunch, then a workshop to help you make your CV. Of course, they don’t make your CV for you, they only correct the mistakes. If you have time later, they can help you write your cover letter, or find work. We’ll point you towards useful websites. I cancelled my registration for two reasons: first of all, it doesn’t add anything to what I already know, because I did practically the same thing with the other organisation for 5 months, and one day isn’t going to teach me anything, especially if it’s to review things I’ve already learnt. I thought it might be useful to other people. It’s the same with the other organisations. If it doesn’t benefit me, I consider it a waste of time. Some refugees are looking to work, others to study.
[i] Which option is best for a refugee in France?
[r] Each choice has its drawbacks. It should be noted that my experience is different. Many organisations pick up refugees at the airport or at their home, and they are accompanied to French classes, to enrolment at university, etc. At each stage, they will remain in contact with this organisation, even when they are already at university. It’s exactly the same if they are looking for work. As I’ve already said, every choice has its drawbacks. People who want to work in a specific field will look for an internship. For example, it’s very easy to become a baker, whereas to continue studying, refugees need to have certain prerequisites and knowledge. They ask them for research projects, they need to have an idea… for example: this mobile phone, it needs to offer a particular feature in order to be able to propose research. Those who want to work also have a lot of financial difficulties, it’s very difficult for them, they are asked too much. Internships… Training courses… Let me give you the example of someone who wants to open a bakery. You have to do a 5-6 month training course, and then you have to find the funding. All of that is very expensive. When you apply to the bank for a loan to finance your project, you’re not sure you’ll get the whole amount. The bank gives you 30-40%, and then it’s up to you to find the rest. It’s always the same thing, financial difficulty. The State can help you, but I don’t know to what extent and the State asks you for guarantees too. How much of the State’s aid is there? What’s your share in all this? And in the first 2-3 years of your project, will you be able to repay the bank? I know people who started a small project and after two years they couldn’t continue because they were paying too many charges and a lot of tax. They realised that they earned more as employees, they realised that… being self-employed entailed a lot of responsibilities, a lot of work, for an income below the minimum wage. This forces them to ask for help from the State.
[i] Did you ever think about giving up your studies? To work here in France?
[r] Yes, I thought about it at times… when I was desperate… Last year, I sent 35 applications for a doctorate, by email, by post, or by going to see the professors directly, 35 applications… I didn’t get a positive response, and sometimes no response at all. Then… I thought that I hadn’t knocked on the right doors, or that I wasn’t cut out for it. Maybe it was my age… maybe something else… I don’t know. At that point, I was ready to do anything… a shop assistant, or a security guard in shops, or a boarding agent in airports, but even to be a security guard, there are requirements that I don’t fulfil. In France, training doesn’t lead to a job, at least not necessarily. Unless the company itself provides the training. I wanted to be a security guard, I was willing to work standing up, 12 hours straight, without thinking. A security guard just needs to be physically fit, I really thought about doing this job and then, as I changed my mind, I thought to myself… I’m here in France to study. At one point, I had a slightly crazy idea, which was to start my doctorate on my own. I was a bit mad to want to do that.
[i] Why do you think this is a crazy idea?
[a] It’s a crazy idea because, normally, you need a professor to supervise your work. It’s easier when someone explains how to do it. For example, some ideas that I think are good… the professor could tell me that it hasn’t been done for 20 years. Some accounting practices are no longer used, just as medical practices have changed. Dentists don’t do the same things as they used to… We could imagine that, soon, there will be vaccines against cavities, the dentist will no longer treat the teeth. He will be content to fit braces and whiten teeth.
[i] You have been in Paris for 7 years… there have necessarily been changes in your life, changes in the landscape, in the street? Social or physical changes?
[r] In my life?
[i] Yes, in your life, for example, before there was no metro, now you have the metro, it’s cleaner?
[r] The changes are mainly related to technology. In 2010, I was talking to my family in Syria, Lebanon or Kuwait on the phone. We couldn’t stay on the phone for long, we managed to call at certain times, because it was very expensive, and with the Internet, there was always a problem, either at my place or at my family’s. Little by little, these problems have disappeared, we find more and more applications to be able to talk, and the Internet has become faster, really faster in the last five years. And above all, you can learn a lot of things on YouTube. Online learning has become the equivalent of learning at university. On the Internet, you can find the same things as at university, but in a simpler, faster and more targeted way. You learn exactly the same thing in ten lectures as you would in 20 or 30 lectures at university.
[i] What you say is true all over the world, but I’m asking you about changes specific to your environment, here in Paris.
[r] As far as Paris is concerned, I think we pay more attention to the environment. For example, we have replaced the old buses with environmentally friendly buses. It’s an important change, I’m not sure…
[i] I’m talking about your everyday life, events, demographic and social changes, etc.
[i] Demographic changes are constant, there are always refugees coming to Paris and others leaving. The changes are constant, there are no rules, it’s constantly changing. I also see renovations in Paris. The government is also increasingly using technology. For example, to register with the job centre, you used to have to go to the agency, now you can do everything on the Internet. The same goes for the prefecture… the CAF too, for all state or private structures, there are more and more online services, which avoids having to travel. You can do practically everything from home, I really liked that. There used to be a problem with transport in Paris. Before, to get from the south to the south-west, you had to go up to the north and then come back down. It didn’t make sense. It was like changing direction. Now, with the Grand Paris project, they’re setting up ring roads, so you no longer need to go into Paris if you live in the Île-de-France region.
[i] Decentralisation…
[r] Exactly, and it’s a good thing, lots of changes… I’m not really sure… I’ll give you an example: the Châtelet-les Halles station. When I arrived, there was a project and work going on… Stations closing, others opening… The image is no longer the same today, now it’s more beautiful, it’s easier to get around now. But the work has been going on for 7 years. Here, they are very slow with the work, it’s a disaster in Paris. Les Halles is a really big project. Yet sometimes you find a single worker at work, fixing a single piece of ceramic. One wonders how long it will take him to finish the station. [laughs] Well… there are a lot of changes… we can’t keep track of them all…
[i] Well, what moments have left the biggest impression on you? In your life, as a person in Paris, or certain events? Events that really left their mark on you and that you still remember.
[r] I don’t have a good memory…
[i] I’ll give you an example. We were living here when the terrorist attacks happened. Do you remember those moments? How did you feel? Where were you at the time?
[r] It was Friday 13 November, and I was having dinner with a friend in the 6th arrondissement. I got a message from my brother asking if I was in the 10th. I replied that I didn’t understand anything in his message, he asked me where I was, and I replied that I was in Paris. He insisted on knowing where? I replied that there was no point in saying the name of the place… He insisted again. I ended up replying: the 6th. He asked me if it was far from the 10th. I told him it wasn’t very far, he just wanted to make sure I was far enough away from the scene of the… He didn’t tell me about the ongoing attacks, he was just afraid for me. A little later, a friend sent me a message telling me to avoid the 10th and 11th arrondissements because of the attacks. I didn’t really realise… My friend and I looked it up on the internet. We realised that there had been an attack near a theatre. It was a friend’s birthday that day, so the attack was linked to his birthday. It was a black Friday. It was a sad day, I wasn’t expecting that… Unfortunately, it happens.
[i] Have you changed your lifestyle? Your outings?
[r] No, because it is unlikely that such an event would affect you, 1 chance in 1000? In any case, you have to take the metro and go to restaurants, and if you think there might be attacks all the time, you won’t go to the theatre or the cinema, you won’t be able to take public transport, you won’t fly, you won’t go to the airport. Without that, you’d have to go and live in the middle of the countryside, on a farm with a cow, and that’s that… and even then… you might not be spared. You have to keep on living, your will to live has to be stronger than terrorism. If there is an attack… an assault… like recently in Paris, the will to live forces you to continue living… to go out… to continue your life, and above all to go to the affected places, to the affected restaurants, to go and see plays, to the site of the attack. You mustn’t say… it’s over… we’re not going out any more, you have to do the opposite. There has been an attack in Brussels, you absolutely must visit Brussels, the same goes for Syria… despite the crimes, all the horrors, we must all go back to Syria one day, and walk the streets. This is where we must live our freedom, even if I have started a new life in France and I have a job, a wife and children, we really must go back, even for a short time. We must invite our friends over, I repeat, we must go back to Syria even for a few days, and walk the streets. We must have the strength to do that.
[i] [name of interviewee], after these attacks, has there been a change with your family? Any advice?
[r] My parents are really aware, yet what we are experiencing in Syria at the moment is worse than the Second World War. Everything that people have experienced in Russia, France or Germany is not comparable to what is happening in Syria. My parents tell me to take care of myself, but I don’t see how I can be careful. Do I have to wear a bulletproof vest? I live in Paris, after all, and their situation is much more dangerous than mine. What should I tell them, then? Be careful, don’t walk around during the bombings… I can’t tell them anything, what should I change? There’s nothing to change, what are they going to say to me? Don’t take the RER A, the RER B is safer.
[i] You are in France, alone, without your family. Do you plan to start a family in France?
[r] I have to.
[i] What will your life be like in France? With your family?
[r] It will be a perfect family with a wife and children. One or two or three children.
[i] How will you, who were brought up in Syria, bring up your children here in France?
[r] In our history, the second caliph Omar Bin Khattab said: ‘Every person is born free.’ He also said that you should not raise your children in the same way as the previous generation, since those children were not born at the same time. My childhood was in the late 80s and 90s, my son may be born in 2020. If I raise my son like they did in the 80s, it will be a big mistake.
[i] You talk about the difference between generations, but does the place also play a role?
[i] Of course, this child was born in France, he will be educated in French, by the way, he will have two mother tongues, Arabic and French, French at school, and if he is offered Arabic at school, he may choose to learn Arabic. At home, he will speak Arabic with me, later he will learn English too, he is a child who will speak three languages. I only spoke Arabic at home and at school, and later English, I only discovered French in 2009.
[i] Do you think you will marry a French woman? Of French origin or a French woman of Arab origin? Someone who knows our language and our culture well?
[r] It’s really not a problem for me.
[i] Will you behave in the same way with a French woman as with a Syrian woman?
[r] No, I can’t. If I marry a Syrian woman… I can’t behave with her as I would with a French woman because she was brought up in a different place. Even with a French woman, born in the 80s like me, I still wouldn’t behave with her in the same way if she was born in the 90s. I can’t treat a Syrian woman who has lived in Syria like a French woman, it doesn’t make sense, there’s something in the culture.
[i] But theoretically you would live in France? Even if you weren’t brought up in the same way… For example, I’m talking to you as a Syrian. If I were talking to you as a French person, I wouldn’t have given you the same examples as I have now.
[i] Well…
[r] For example, where I come from, if you always say ‘thank you this, thank you that’… it gets really annoying. Here, it’s the opposite, it’s very polite. Where I come from, I can’t say ‘thank you very much…’ every time. But you can always say ‘hello, good morning, how are you?’ and that’s a good thing, it’s polite. So if you live with French people, and in the morning you say ‘hello, how are you?’… Then half an hour later, you repeat the same thing… and in the afternoon too, you’re going to annoy them. I can’t do the same thing with a French woman and a Syrian woman. I’m not talking about being fair or not, and even being fair is different from one culture to another.
[i] How do you see justice in French culture?
[r] Your questions are difficult… What kind of justice are you talking about?
[i] I’m talking about justice before the law… Social justice… in France, of course.
[r] You’re talking about the rule of law. You must have already been to the social security office, the CAF (family allowance fund), the town hall, in all three of these organisations… You are never asked to state your nationality. You are asked at university, the police station and the prefecture.
[i] It’s a good thing you’re not asked for your nationality?
[a] Of course, the state can’t keep an eye on every civil servant. For example, I write on a form that I am Syrian. Let’s imagine that a civil servant doesn’t like Syrians very much. If he sees that I am Syrian, he may try to harm me by making my file disappear, or by losing it, or by constantly demanding new papers. If he doesn’t know my nationality, he can’t treat my case according to his personal prejudices. It’s also a message to tell us that we are treated as human beings regardless of our origins. In many Arab countries, nationality appears in most documents. In Syria, it’s the same as in France. There are three boxes: ‘Syrian’, ‘National of an Arab country’ and ‘Other nationality’. Here too in France, ‘French’, ‘European’, ‘Other nationality’. In Syria, it’s almost the same thing. So justice is when we are equal before the law. In many countries, this justice does not exist. I have not seen favouritism here. At the same time, I don’t know the situation very well. I haven’t noticed it, but it may exist, you can find out when you’re in the system. Favouritism inevitably exists, as does corruption, but much less than in Syria. I don’t know much about this subject here. In Syria, I know the situation very well, because I was a civil servant myself. Here, I am far from all that, but it obviously exists. There you go, I have talked about justice and corruption at the same time… As far as equality before the law is concerned, there have been a few minor problems where the police have intervened and done nothing because I am not French, or for them it was not important, I don’t know…
[i] When you see the police in France, are you reassured or do you have the same feelings as when you saw a policeman in Syria?
[r] Unfortunately, the policeman here is there for three reasons: to ask for a bribe, to threaten you or to search you, or to get you into trouble. I remember when we left Kuwait during the war in 1990.
[i] The Gulf War?
[r] Yes, the second Gulf War and the invasion of Kuwait. In Kuwait, there were no police officers left, only the Iraqi army. The Iraqi army did not distribute humanitarian aid, but the soldiers showed us the way. The Saudi police welcomed us, there were Saudi police in the front row, and further back, the Saudi army. Perhaps to avoid clashes with the Iraqi soldiers. I didn’t know much, I was young, I was only nine at the time. When we crossed the border, the Saudi police didn’t even ask to see our passports, they offered us food and milk, they asked us if there were any sick people among us. They wanted to help us, there were a lot of roadblocks…
[i] Were you on your way to Syria?
[r] Yes, we were going back to Syria. Each time, we went through a Saudi roadblock… There were a lot of roadblocks at the beginning, then fewer and fewer. The further we got from Kuwait, the fewer roadblocks we saw. They didn’t even search people. Yet Saudi Arabia is known for being very strict about border security, but since it was wartime, they let everyone through. They would only stop us to give us food, water, bread and medicine. They would ask us if there were any sick people among us. There were ambulances everywhere, to take people to hospitals. Later, in Jordan, there was also corruption, but overall, it went well, then we arrived in Syria, around midnight, 1am, it was dark. In the front row were the soldiers, further back the customs officers. The soldiers were there to search you, there were two of them, one standing and the other sleeping. The one who was awake called the other to tell him that there was loot for him, and he didn’t let my father pass until he took some money from him. He asked for 50 Syrian pounds. In the 90s, that was the equivalent of one dollar and fifty cents. When my father arrived at the customs officers, he only had Saudi and Kuwaiti currency left. And the Kuwaiti currency had completely lost its value. So he wouldn’t accept the Kuwaiti money, and there was no exchange office either. We were stuck until 10 a.m. My father left his car and his passport, he walked 4 km… he went into the city of Deraa. He walked 4 km, he had a cousin in Deraa, this cousin lent him money.
[i] All that for a bribe?
[r] He had to…
[i] Compared to France…?
[r] I haven’t finished the story yet… My father gave everything, and as soon as we crossed the border, and before leaving the city of Deraa, a policeman stopped our car again because he knew, from the number plate, that we came from a Gulf country. They were the last 50 pounds my father had left. So the policeman asked for money, and my father replied, ‘I come from a country at war, it’s up to you to help me’. The policeman said to him, ‘You’re not going to be able to continue on your way if you don’t give me some money’. He took the last 50 pounds. I remember a lady telling us that she really had no money left and that the policeman asked to take the box of tissues. That’s the situation in Syria. That’s the corruption… It’s a disaster! I haven’t found the same thing in France. I have never seen a corrupt policeman in France, or a policeman who arrests you for no reason, or deliberately tries to scare you. The policeman here has a certain prestige, he has a role in society, he is a person like you and me. You can talk to him normally, you can meet him on public transport.
[i] Do you feel safe when you see a policeman here?
[r] Yes, of course, I feel safe. A policeman here is trained to protect you, whereas in Syria he is trained to be corrupt. Unfortunately, that is the image of a policeman where I come from.
[i] Would you prefer to continue your life here in France or return to Syria after everything you’ve been through?
[r] Honestly, I don’t have an answer.
[i] Why?
[r] Because I don’t know… Sometimes I feel like a citizen of this country, and I tell myself that Syria has changed a lot. At the same time, Syria is my country, my childhood was spent in Kuwait, and when I returned to Syria after the Gulf War, I was discovering Syria.
[i] Did these migrations between these three countries, Kuwait, Syria and then France, give you the strength to face the world or, on the contrary… make you more vulnerable?
[a] I don’t know if you’ve noticed, I don’t get attached to anything, I don’t talk about memories too much, I don’t keep anything inside myself.
[i] You have no ties?
[a] Not at all.
[r] What I love most in life are my glasses because they allow me to see clearly. When I take my glasses off, I can’t see very well, I can’t see the TV very well, even you, I can’t see you very clearly, I can see you in general, but not with the small details. Although I really like my glasses … I’m still going to have surgery, and I won’t even need glasses anymore. However, these glasses are part of my personality, and I’ve been wearing them for 20 years. I don’t really have any attachments. When it’s over, I’ll turn my back and leave.
[i] Even with people? Social relations?
[r] Social relations do not fit into moulds. I’ll give you an example… at the moment, I see you every day, we spend 3-4 hours together. Then later, we’ll move away, and then one day, we’ll get closer again. I’ll give you another example… in the past, neighbours were like family, people talked all the time. Now, with the new communication tools, modernity, it’s not the same thing with neighbours. I can tell you that since I arrived in France, I have not felt any nostalgia. I knew two students who came to France before me, they arrived in France in 2008, and they told me that they often cried together.
[i] What were they crying about?
[r] They were homesick… they were crying. They were lamenting, ‘We are in a foreign country, we don’t have the same customs, nor the same language’. However, both of them had scholarships, they had no financial problems.
[i] You didn’t have a scholarship
[r] I relied on my father. He gave me some money, and he said if you run out of money, I’m here, I can help you.
[i] Don’t you miss your family?
[r] I miss my family very much, but I’m not going to cry every day. Looking at photos and crying again…
[i] Would you have liked them to be here or do you think it’s better for you that they stay in Syria?
[r] I would have liked them to be here, especially as there is a war in Syria. They would be safer here, they wouldn’t be afraid for their lives and their health. Here, if we get sick… we’re not afraid. You can also get free medical care in Syria, but sometimes you have to go to private hospitals, and they’re very expensive. The state doesn’t cover all the costs; here everything is covered by the state. I even have an experience about that.
[i] What is this experience? Something very specific or something you talk about in general?
[r] I’d like to tell you about my neighbour. She has had a birth defect since birth, she had several unsuccessful operations in Syria. In France, she had an operation and it was successful. Apparently, the congenital defect has been corrected. I haven’t seen the final result yet, but the medical care here is really good. The doctors really do what they have to do, the medical care is good and so is the education. Maybe my case is a bit difficult, or maybe I just haven’t been lucky. But I know a lot of people who have been very successful and have got their doctorates. They no longer have a language problem. I am the exception. I was unable to finish my studies, and it may be my fault.
[i] I hope that you will soon be able to do something to make it happen…
[r] I always try, but maybe I don’t have the right tools. I hope this year will be different.
[i] I’d like to ask you a somewhat philosophical question. Let’s imagine that Paris is a person, a woman for example. You have been living with this woman for 7 years. Can you describe this woman to me as she was when you met her 7 years ago, and as she is today? She may be shy, perverse, kind…
[r] Perverse… no way!
[i] Good.
[r] It is often said that expatriation is very difficult to bear. I have been expatriated twice, but I didn’t find it very hard.
[i] Here, in France?
[r] No, the first time I came to France… and also my various stays between Syria and Kuwait.
[i] So here?
[r] Let me tell you about Syria. Once, I stayed in a camp in Palmyra for a month, and it was very difficult for me to bear the separation from my family. On the way back to Damascus, I saw a car with Damascus licence plates, and I almost got off the bus to kiss the car. Here, honestly, I felt at home straight away, as I’ve already told you… I see Paris as a kind girl. She is beautiful, she has a sense of humour, she is very active, hard-working, she has a practical sense, but she never has time, she is very, very busy.
[i] Well, I think we have clarified a lot of subjects, do you have anything to add? Anything we haven’t talked about?
[r] I would like to thank you, and I hope to be able to realise my dreams, for my studies and for work. I wish all the best for Paris, not only Paris, the whole of France, the whole world, and above all security… health… education… Thank you very much.
[i] Thank you very much [name of interviewee]