SU_P_06

[i] Can you tell me where you were born?
[r] In Vietnam, on the west coast. In Haiphong.
[i] What year were you born?
[r] How long did I live in France? In Vietnam? I was born in 1944.
[i] How many brothers and sisters do you have?
[r] There were 12 of us. Six boys, six girls.
[i] What was your position in the family?
[r] I’m the ninth of all the children. The fourth of the girls.
[i] And your parents, were they Chinese?
[r] Yes, my parents are Chinese who went to Vietnam. They came from China.
[i] They were the ones who came? Or your ancestors?
[r] Yes, it was a long time ago.
[i] A long time ago?
[r] Life was difficult there. They went to Vietnam to earn a living.
[i] Where were they from?
[r] They are Hokkien. From China. Hokkien.
[i] And how old were you when you lived there?
[r] I lived there until I was about 9 or 10. Then we left because… Ho Chi Minh… The communists arrived. So we left.
[i] And what did your parents do for a living?
[r] My father was… a food wholesaler. For the army… the French army. His business was doing well.
[i] You all fled together…
[r] Yes, my father ordered a boat and the whole family took the boat to Đà Nẵng. We stayed there for a few years, before going to Saigon, to the Cholon district. Cholon.
[i] How long did you stay there?
[r] In Vietnam, until about 15 or 16, then we went to Phnom Penh.
[i] And did you go to school there?
[r] I went to school in Vietnam. I studied there from primary school to secondary school. Until the second year. The second year. Then I left school. That’s how it was.
[i] Did you study in Chinese?
[r] Yes, in Chinese.
[i] Chinese school?
[r] Yes, Chinese. Then I studied French with the nuns for a year. I studied there for a year. When I came home, I didn’t want to talk. My mother was scared, she didn’t let me study anymore. She was scared that I would become a nun. That I would leave home. So I didn’t study anymore. I didn’t continue. I had studied in Vietnamese and French.
[i] You can also speak Vietnamese?
[r] Yes, yes. Having been born there, I speak it.
[i] Before, there was a large Chinese community there?
[r] Yes. There were quite a lot of Chinese immigrants.
[i] And did you help your parents with their work?
[r] No. No, I never helped them. When I arrived here, I worked. In France, in Paris, I worked. I did… I worked in French shops, labelling the prices on the items. In a jewellery shop, for a while.
[i] In what year did you leave Vietnam for Phnom Penh?
[r] In Vietnam, from about 9… to 15 years old, then we went to Phnom Penh. My father did business in Phnom Penh. He opened a shop. In Vietnam, he had gone into partnership with a friend. Then this friend left with the profits… In Phnom Penh, he opened his own business. In Phnom Penh, until I was 19… At 19, I got married. And… I didn’t do anything anymore… Over there, it was the men who worked and fed the family. The women didn’t work.
[i] And what was life like in Phnom Penh at the time?
[r] Eh?
[i] What was life like in Phnom Penh?
[r] It was good there.
[i] It was good?
[r] Very well [Laughter] I lived like a princess, it had to be good! Yes, it was good there because my father earned a good living, he fed the family, we didn’t need to work. And… we had money to go out, we had a driver to take us. But my father was an educated man, he didn’t like girls going out. We stayed at home, locked up at home. We couldn’t go out on the street. That’s how it was!
[i] And there, you got married in Phnom Penh? It was in Phnom Penh?
[r] That’s right! I studied English in Phnom Penh for a few years. Three or four years. Then I got married. Parents decide who you marry. It’s not our choice. I got married at the age of 19.
[i] Was your husband also Hokkien?
[r] He was also Hokkien. My father loved him. I didn’t love him. [Laughter] It was an arranged marriage. It was the parents who chose, we didn’t choose.
[i] And in Phnom Penh, how long did you live there before going to France? How did it go?
[a] I lived in Phnom Penh until 1983. No, 1974. At the end of the year, I fled to Vietnam.
[i] Where in Vietnam?
[a] In Cholon. I lived there with my older sister. Then, in 1983, I fled to Paris.
[i] And you left with your whole family? From Phnom Penh to Vietnam?
[r] From Phnom Penh to Vietnam, we left with a smuggler. Just like that. After getting papers, we left with a smuggler to go and live in Vietnam. In Vietnam, we lived there temporarily. We didn’t have real papers. Then, from there, we fled to Paris. We weren’t refugees. We got papers to come here. Then, here, I applied for asylum, they didn’t grant it to me. I have the status of economic immigrant. Immigrant for economic reasons. A person who came for work, not a refugee. I didn’t get refugee status.
[i] Did you go to Vietnam with your brothers and sisters?
[r] No, I went alone. After I got married, I brought my four daughters there. Because my husband left in 1970, he left us, a mother and daughters, there.
[i] Where did he go?
[a] He went to Thailand on his own. To Phnom Penh, to escape military service… At night, during curfew, there were patrols, he was scared… His mother told him to leave, so he left. I was left alone with my four daughters.
[i] Where were your daughters born?
[a] In Phnom Penh. After I got married, all four of them were born in Phnom Penh.
[i] Did you bring all four of them to Vietnam?
[a] Yes, I brought them alone. I had one in my arms, and I dragged the other three. [Laughter]
[i] How old were they?
[r] The oldest was about 10. The others were following. The youngest was a few months old, I was carrying her.
[i] And in Vietnam, those few years, what did you do?
[r] Nothing, because I… my… older sister had opened what? She sold seafood… prawns… seafood… seafood… for export. To Taiwan, Hong Kong… That’s what she did. We lived there for free. [Laughter] She gave us free board and lodging. The whole family. Just like that.
[i] And you… you came to Paris?
[r] I arrived in Paris in 1983. At the end of the year.
[i] How did you come? At the time… we flew over. We flew over… We came, then we didn’t go back. Like the migrants of today, who don’t go back.
[i] Did you have family in France… who brought you here?
[r] No, no…
[i] No?
[r] No. I had extended family, but they didn’t bring me here.
[i] Where did you first arrive in 1983?
[r] I first arrived in… Paris? I first arrived in Paris. I first stayed with a family member in the department of Hauts-de-Seine. Then she said… The elderly people here need peace and quiet. She doesn’t like children. So she asked us to find somewhere to live. So I looked for somewhere to live and moved.
[i] And where did you live? Where did you move to? I moved… at first, to Belleville. Near the Hong Kong Centre. Because… at that time, I didn’t have a payslip. A friend helped me rent an apartment. But the lease wasn’t in my name. We could live there, but not in our name. Living in an apartment. That’s how it was. After a while, my name was on the rent receipt. I used it to… get papers and enrol my children in school. We lived there for several years. In… In Belleville, over there. Then we moved to Vitry. To Vitry, to live. Vitry was where we lived the longest. Until… Until I sold takeaway food. When I worked at the restaurant, I also lived in Vitry. In the evening, I would come home at 1am, alone. In the evening, I would come home at 1am.
[i] What did you do in Paris?
[r] When I had just arrived, some friends helped me find a job in a French factory. I labelled the prices on the products. In gold plating. Jewellery. I labelled the prices. Then I opened a restaurant myself. First takeaway food. After the takeaway food, I opened a restaurant.
[i] Where?
[r] The takeaway was in Vitry. Opposite the town hall. Inside a French shopping centre. Then, because of the papers… My uncle said he wanted to report me, that I didn’t have any papers, etc… So I sold it. At the time, the takeaway business was doing rather well. Once I’d sold it, I moved to the provinces, to stay with family, to open a restaurant.
[i] What specialities did you serve?
[r] I did… The takeaway was Asian, Vietnamese cuisine. Pho, lots of dishes. The restaurant served Thai and Chinese food. In Étampes. In Étampes, over there.
[i] And you liked that?
[r] Yes.
[i] Yes, I like being in the kitchen.
[r] When we want to eat, we like to cook. [Laughter]
[i] What kind of dishes do you like to cook?
[r] I especially like to cook Vietnamese food. Probably because I lived in Vietnam. I like to eat Vietnamese food. Vietnamese food isn’t too fatty. Chinese food is fattier. But Chinese food without oil isn’t good. That’s just how it is. When I worked there, it worked out pretty well. In Étampes, there were French customers, quite old, 70-80 years old. When I told them I was quitting, they hugged me, we cried, I was very moved. There were French people who treated me very well. They were fond of me. When I went back to Paris, I thought about them a lot. [Laughter]
[i] And you… how many children do you have?
[r] Five. Four girls, one boy.
[i] And where was your son born?
[r] He was born in Vietnam. In 197… In 1980, he was born in Vietnam. Sorry.
[i] That’s OK.
[r] Sorry.
[i] It doesn’t matter.
[i] And do you like living in Paris?
[r] Yes.
[i] Do you like living in Paris?
[r] Yes. When I was little, at school, I learnt about Paris. I always hoped to come to Paris one day. It’s a magnificent city. It was a dream. We always hoped to come and visit Paris one day. Then I came to Paris, and I like it. But… sometimes I get bored and I think of my homeland. Human beings have feelings. Don’t they? Wherever you go, you think of your homeland. [Laughter]
[i] And in Paris, what is your favourite place? Which place?
[r] In Paris? In Paris… A few years after I arrived, I didn’t go anywhere. I looked after the children, I worked, I didn’t go anywhere. I visited few places in Paris. Then I did takeaway. Then when I worked in the restaurant business, I was able to travel abroad. I went to Nice, to Monaco… I didn’t really travel. Spain, Italy, things like that…
[i] And among the places you lived in Paris, which ones did you like?
[r] Paris… It’s hard to say. Yes, because at the beginning, we lived in Belleville. At the time, Belleville was nice, it wasn’t really… We lived in Belleville for a few years, 2-3 years, because my husband shared a business with his partner, in Belleville, near Oberkampf. In the 18th [11th?]. I had helped out for a month or two. Later, the partner knew that I was on my own, he led the company to bankruptcy. He took all the money, the company’s money, which my husband shared with him. Then I looked for work. That was how it was. And my daughters here could go to school for free, thanks to the state, so it wasn’t that hard. As long as we have something to eat. [Laughter]
[i] And what do your children do for a living?
[r] My children? My eldest daughter was already big when she arrived. The other children at school were small. She was big, she didn’t feel like learning. But she was a good student. The teachers liked her a lot. But she didn’t have the heart to learn. So she started working quite early. As a cashier. And then the other children are an accountant, a receptionist, a hotel receptionist… The youngest daughter works as an accountant for Hauky.
[i] Where do they live?
[a] They are all married. They have all started families. They live in different places. Don’t they?
[i] Do they live in Paris?
[a] Yes, in Paris. In the 91st, 94th, 93rd. They each live separately. The boy lives with me because he is divorced. He lives with me.
[i] What language do you speak to them?
[r] At home, I spoke Cantonese to them. When I was little, we also spoke Cantonese at home. I spoke Hokkien to my parents. We spoke Vietnamese to the household staff, who were Vietnamese. That’s how it was. That’s how I grew up. [Laughter]
[i] And how many grandchildren do you have?
[r] Seven grandchildren. Four boys, three girls.
[i] How old are they? The oldest is 19. The oldest of the girls. The oldest of the boys is 21 this year. The youngest is 4. A boy.
[i] Can they speak Chinese?
[r] They… The oldest speaks Cantonese. The boy… My son’s child… My son married a French woman, so his child speaks French. The others speak Cantonese. My daughters’ children speak Cantonese at home. At school, they speak French, at home, with their parents, they all speak Cantonese.
[i] And they… asked you… Did you tell them your story? How you lived before, and when you arrived here?
[r] We… There’s no point in telling them. Because I brought them all here. Didn’t I? All by myself, I brought all five of them. There’s no point in telling them, they saw with their own eyes how their mother took care of the family on her own. When I arrived, I was about 40 years old. 35-40 years old. At the time, in Paris there was also… When you have too many children, you can also have your children adopted by French people, so that they raise your… There are children that the French adopt. Some people told me to give up my children to be adopted, it was hard. I told them it wasn’t possible, later on, we wouldn’t have any more ties. They wouldn’t have any more ties with me. I said no. We have to stay together. That’s how they grew up.
[i] When you came to France, did you find that the French welcomed you?
[r] At the time, the French were polite. I liked them. They were kind and polite. When I first arrived, I didn’t speak French. Even in my free time, I didn’t have time to learn, because I had five children. The State asked me to learn, but I didn’t have the time. It’s a waste. That’s why I don’t speak French well. I didn’t speak French, I didn’t know anything, when I asked for directions, they would take me to the Post Office, for example. They would take me there. I appreciated that. They treated me well. The French behave like that. They’re nice. Warm. They’re kind-hearted. Back then. I’m talking about before, now it’s not the same. [Laughs] Now it’s changed. Hasn’t it? Because there are a lot of people who come to France. It’s not the same, that’s how it is.
[i] And in France, your friends, are they all… Where are they from?
[r] My friends… from Vietnam, Phnom Penh, Hong Kong, everywhere. They come from everywhere. I like making friends.
[i] Together…
[r] Sometimes I go to the temple to do voluntary work. When things happen at the temple… As soon as there are things to do, I help out. I’ve been doing it for several years. I like it too. When there is a need, I go and help. When people are happy, I am happy too. So I go and help. For several years. Since I’ve been in Paris, I’ve been involved. At the time, I didn’t have time. Now, when I have time, I go and help. When I have free time, I go. Now that I’m retired. When I feel like it, I go.
[i] And do you go there often in the 13th?
[r] The 13th? I don’t go there often. Because the 13th is… I think people… it’s better if they’re at home rather than out and about. Because when you’re at home, on your own, there’s no fuss. Isn’t that right? If you’re always out and about, and you talk too much, it causes trouble. I don’t like that. I like life to be peaceful. Being at home in peace is what I prefer.
[i] And what do you like doing at home?
[r] What do I like doing? I like… writing. In Chinese. I enjoy it. I’ve enjoyed it since I was little. Back then, when I was learning Vietnamese, I wrote it down too. It’s been a long time since I wrote it, I’ve forgotten. I enjoy it. I like having some peace and quiet and doing this kind of thing. I still write in the evenings.
[i] What do you write?
[r] I write… What I have experienced until now. How I fled to get to Paris. In such and such a way. How I fled to get to Paris, how I lived, what I did… I wrote it as a keepsake. Some people have told me to publish a book, but I don’t want to. I think that if I publish a book, my children will feel sick when they read it. That their mother lived here and there… I write it myself, I read it myself, that’s enough. As a keepsake. I don’t write it… I don’t publish it.
[i] Have you… ever been back… Back there?
[r] Where?
[i] You went to China or…
[r] Yes, yes. Once, in 19… 197… 1980-something, I went, went… went… to Teochew. I went there with a friend from Hong Kong. I have a friend who lives in Hong Kong. We both went there, as far as Teochew. At night, I dreamt that my father said to me, ‘You’re a Hokkien, why don’t you go there? Why don’t you go and see the land of the Hokkien. You’ve come so far, you should get to know your homeland, see what it’s like.’ So a few days later, I bought tickets to go and see my father’s birthplace. Tong An [in Hokkien]. Tong An. I went there. Life there is pretty miserable. When they told me to eat, I didn’t dare.
[i] Why?
[r] Because his hands… There was… black… and he cooked… I couldn’t bring myself to eat.
[i] Was it not clean?
[r] It was not clean. I did not dare to eat. I thought people’s lives were miserable. I gave them some money. Then I went back to Teochew. I went back to visit Teochew. This time, I didn’t go to Xiamen. I went to Tong An. To visit my father’s land. My father had said when he was there, he hoped his children would go and see his homeland. So I listened to him and went to see it for myself.
[i] Did you go alone or with a friend?
[r] I went with a friend. She’s Teochew. I’m Hokkien. I went to the Hokkien place to see it. She took me to see Teochew. We both went. It’s been several years. It’s good. I went to appease my father. He said, ‘You were born elsewhere, you have to go and visit your father’s land, otherwise you won’t know.’ ‘You are…’ What? What did he say? He said Tong An. So I went. I went to see. At night, there, I told my father. Didn’t I? I said to my father, ‘You hoped I’d go, so I went to have a look. Rest assured.’ Doing that… It’s like it was a good deed. For my father. [Laughs] It soothes his heart… It soothes his heart, that’s good too.
[i] Do you consider yourself Chinese, or Vietnamese or…
[r] Me? I’m Hokkien. But… My nanny was Vietnamese. And… It’s hard to say. She raised me, I have a bond with her. Isn’t it? She didn’t give birth to me, she fed me, there’s still a bond. She fed me her milk, it’s as if she were my mother. Isn’t it? That’s surely why they say I’m more Vietnamese than Chinese. I don’t know. Human beings have feelings. Isn’t that right? The person who raised you is like your mother. That’s how it is. Because when I was little, my mother liked to do business, she didn’t like to raise her children. She liked to work. She was always with my father, she worked with my father. She did everything, she placed orders, she… She came from the countryside, but she… She loved doing business. She was not like the others. She did everything. She contributed a lot to my father’s business from the start. She was very talented, even though she was not good at school. You don’t need a calculator to count the money. Her brain calculated everything very quickly. She was very good! We admired her a lot, though. Twelve children is not… it’s not easy, is it! There’s nothing more difficult than a big family. But it’s okay, when I was a child, I was quite happy in this big family. I opened my eyes and I had everything. We didn’t know what to do with money. It’s true! I asked my older brother, ‘What is money for?’ He said, ‘If you don’t know how to spend it, give it to me and I’ll spend it.’ [Laughter] Before it was… As soon as we opened our eyes, the domestic staff would ask us what we wanted to eat. We never went out to buy things ourselves. We had everything. As soon as we opened our eyes. We had everything. But then I left on my own, I worked, and I realised that it was difficult to earn a living. Isn’t it? Before, I didn’t know. I didn’t even know how to use money. I would ask my brother, ‘How do you use it?’ Because at home, we sold everything. My father… he had a ‘food’ business for the military. There was everything! We opened our eyes, everything we wanted to eat, the staff cooked it for us. We didn’t know what it was like to be in need. We didn’t know what it was like to be in need. Then, after I got married, I found out through work. Making money isn’t that easy. That’s how I found out. When I found out, I was already old. [Laughter] When I found out, I was already old. [Laughter]
[i] And in Phnom Penh, did you also have a ‘diet’?
[r] We also had a ‘diet’. Opposite the Sisowath high school. We lived there. Opposite was the high school. Opposite was the high school. At the time… Sihanouk… There were often helicopters dropping off clothes [for the poor]. My father was very afraid. He closed all the doors, so we wouldn’t go out to look at [the helicopters]. He was afraid that… You know Sihanouk, he had many women, if he chose you, he might want to make you his wife, you couldn’t refuse. He could cause you problems. My father didn’t want me to go out. There… I lived there for several years. I got married when I was 19.
[i] And did you study there?
[r] I studied English.
[i] You studied English?
[r] Yes. I studied for 3-4 years.
[i] At Sisowath High School?
[r] At school. At… Yi Cai. Yi Cai. They taught in English. I studied there for 3-4 years. After studying, at first, I wanted to learn Japanese. Japanese… I liked studying. I’ve loved studying since I was a child. Then I studied, studied… for a semester. My father forced me to get married, and I had to give up my studies. I loved studying. Once I got married, I studied Cambodian, Khmer. I studied it. Just for a year. And then I stopped. Because I took [Cambodian] nationality, I took Cambodian nationality, I had to learn the language. I studied. For a year. I know a little bit of everything. I’m not very good, I know a little bit here and there. [Laughter]
[i] And your brothers and sisters, before…
[r] Some were able to escape, others did not succeed. Because my older brother, he… He also opened a grocery shop. When the Khmer Rouge entered Cambodia, they wanted to take his things. When my brother refused, a Khmer Rouge took out a gun. He had a knife as well as a gun, and he killed my older brother. And my mother, and a few others, got papers to leave, but there were no more planes to escape on. They died there. They couldn’t feed themselves anymore, and they died. And I had… I asked people to go to refugee camps in Thailand to look for them. I placed ads in the newspapers, so that journalists would look for them, but they were not found. So I knew that they had disappeared. At first, when I looked for them, I had hope. Once I had looked for them, I had no more hope. I knew they had disappeared. My mother… had got her papers. But there was no… plane to escape on. My older sister too. They had bought their plane tickets, but there was no more plane. So they died in Cambodia.
[i] Were the others able to leave for somewhere else?
[a] Some did… One went to Hong Kong and died of an illness. Some… went… Some went to the United States, or elsewhere… To Canada… Some went to France, too. Two went to France. But we don’t see each other often. They have their families. I have my family. Once in a while, when the family comes to visit, I see them. Otherwise, I don’t see them much.
[i] Can you speak several… languages?
[r] Me? Yes. A little, a little. [Laughter]
[i] Can you speak… Hokkien…
[r] Teochew, Hokkien, Vietnamese, Cantonese… Cantonese. Cantonese… About… six or seven languages.
[i] You’re good.
[r] I know a little French, but I’m not good. Because I didn’t study it. I couldn’t learn it. Because at the time, my children were young. To get to class… In the morning, school started at 9 o’clock. At 8 o’clock, I took them to school, I was afraid they would go out into the street, that they would have an accident. I didn’t manage to learn French. I had started the lessons, but my heart was at home. I was afraid they would have an accident. I couldn’t study. Then I told the teacher, who was Vietnamese… He liked me a lot. He said to me, ‘Why aren’t you studying any more? You’re learning well.’ I said, ‘I can’t manage to learn, I keep thinking about my children. I was afraid they would go out into the street, that there would be an accident. So I asked him to… I didn’t want to take any more lessons. So I didn’t learn any more. It’s a shame. So my French is… I can speak it a little, but it’s not very good.
[i] And when you hear it… Do you understand it… French?
[r] Yes. I understand it more than I speak it. [Laughter] When I want to speak it, it doesn’t come out. I was in exile, from my youth until my old age. I fled several places. From the age of 9 until today. Look, it’s been 70 years, hasn’t it? We are also… You know… I don’t like to say it… One day, I won’t know what’s going on. If I die, I won’t realise it. It doesn’t matter, one day goes by after another. That’s life. You shouldn’t think too much. When you think too much, you hurt yourself.
[i] And when you think… Do you think about your life before?
[r] To say that I don’t think about it would be lying to you. Human beings think. How can you not think? When you sleep, you think. When you are at peace, when you hear things… It makes you think about your family. You have to. You have no choice. Human beings have feelings. You can’t help thinking about them. I think about it. Even if my father didn’t act right, I think about it. Even if my mother didn’t act right, I think about it too. Because they’re the ones who gave me life. Right? No matter what, they’re my parents, I can’t blame them. Someone once asked me, ‘Your father… married you to someone you didn’t love, did you blame him for that?’ I said, “To say that I didn’t blame him would be a lie.” In my heart, it wasn’t comfortable, but they’re my parents, what can I say? They gave me life. They raised me. I owe them. I owe them that. The fact that they raised me. It doesn’t matter. It’s fate. If our fate is not good… [Laughter] You have to accept it. You can’t say… It’s hard to say. I’m not blaming my parents. I blame my own destiny. Don’t you think?
[i] Do you… go to pray at the temple?
[r] Yes. Until today, I often go to the temple, I do good deeds. Before, I went to a temple to eat. Until today, I don’t go there, because I live too far away. Before, I always bought rice for the temple. I remember that I used to eat rice there, so I bought some rice, etc. Once a month, I buy a few bags of rice for the temple. Then, in Lille, there is a monk. Last year, I bought ten bags of rice from him. Ten bags. He wrote me a letter to thank me. He gave me a gift of a Buddha figurine as a lucky charm for me. He said… He said… It’s been several years, it makes me happy to think of him. The monk fed orphans in Thailand. I gave them ten bags of rice… Ten bags of rice. He sent me photos so I could see them. I like doing good deeds. But my personality is rather masculine. [Laughs] Whatever people say… If I commit to doing something, I do it. Sooner or later. I have the capacity to do it. If I can do it, I do it. It’s not… I open my mouth and say one thing, then I forget… No, that’s not how I am. I’ve been like that since I was little. When I went to school, what made me happiest was Vietnam. At the college there. I liked it. Because at school, at the Hokkien school, I was the representative of the Hokkien school for the whole of Saigon. You could represent the school and go abroad. You could represent the school, to do this and that. It wasn’t a case of, you do what you want, but… We studied… We studied well, the teacher was happy, he let us represent the school. That’s when we were little… it’s a childhood memory. I like it. When I think about it, it wasn’t the case for everyone, I was a representative, I’m happy. You shouldn’t compare yourself to others. I’m satisfied. I’m not very rich, but I’m satisfied. When you see poor people, compared to poor people, there are many. Deep down, we have a happy life. We can’t compare ourselves to the rich. We can’t compare. We can’t compare ourselves to the rich. But we can compare ourselves to the poorest, who can’t eat. We can eat, we are happy. That’s how it is.
[i] So your happiest time was in Vietnam, when you were little?
[r] Yes. When I was at secondary school, that’s when I was happiest. Because at school, all the teachers loved me very much. I was able to represent the school and go to Đà Nẵng, Đà Lạt. Out of the whole year group, there were fewer than ten representatives. At school, I was well known. It’s my happiest memory. It wasn’t that easy to be chosen, to have that experience. Out of all of Saigon, only ten were chosen. But… my father didn’t want me to leave. He didn’t want me to go to Đà Nẵng or Đà Lạt. He said it was too dangerous for me to go. I cried about it for days. Even after crying for days, I couldn’t go. That’s how it was. I loved that period. It was the time when I was happiest. The happiest time, but I wasn’t happy at the nuns’ house. Even though I wasn’t happy, the sisters treated me well. When I wrote in Vietnamese, they… they put it up in the school for everyone to see. But there were orphaned children there, it made me sad, I didn’t feel like having fun. They had no food, no parents. They had no clothes, they were very fat, they had an illness. They had worms… inside them. It made me sad to see that. I often bought biscuits for them. I saw them… they had no parents… The parents didn’t want them, it was sad. My heart was… I wanted to do a good deed. When you do a good deed, it brings you luck when you’re old. Doesn’t it? [Laughter]
[i] Do your children see each other often? Are they close?
[r] The four sisters don’t socialise with other people. They say that people are greeted, a few words are exchanged, and that’s enough. They prefer to stay among themselves. They can confide in each other. They can confide in each other. When necessary, the sisters help each other; they don’t ask others for help. My four daughters go on holiday together. All four of them together, not with other people. It’s true, it’s very strange. And the youngest, surely, when he was little, he didn’t have his father around, his personality is like… he’s solitary. Solitary. He doesn’t talk much, even at home, he doesn’t talk much.
[i] Which one?
[r] My son, the youngest. Because when he was little, his father wasn’t there, I raised him alone. He doesn’t talk much.
[i] Does he live with you?
[r] He married a French woman, and when he got divorced, he came back to live with me. Before getting married, he also lived with me. When he got married, he bought a flat in Toulouse. Then he got divorced and came back to live with me. He bought a house in Limeil. Créteil, Limeil. That’s where we live. It’s quite peaceful there, I like it. It’s quite far away, but it’s peaceful.
[i] Do you like living there?
[r] Huh?
[i] Do you like living there?
[r] Yes, I like it.
[i] Because it’s quiet. There’s a 100 square metre garden. When I’m bored, I garden, the days pass quickly, don’t they? No need to call your friends, it’s tiring. It’s tiring! [Laughter] It’s better not to look for your friends, it causes too much trouble. Isn’t that right? There’s always trouble. When you say nothing, they say you’re haughty. When you say things, if you say something wrong you’re accused of talking nonsense. When you say something, sometimes people don’t like what you say, it always causes a fuss. It’s better to stay at home. For me, that’s the best thing. I don’t like it. When there are meetings, I have no choice. When there are no meetings, I don’t see my friends. Once in a while, I see them. I have a lot of Vietnamese friends. Because I used to do business with them. Friends… I have more Vietnamese friends than Chinese friends. [Laughs] I like them. I know… I know their personality.
[i] Did you meet them in France? Or do you know them from before?
[r] I know them from here. In France. Not before… Not from Cholon or anywhere else. I didn’t go out in Cholon. I was always at home, looking after my children. I didn’t know anyone. When I left, I left alone. When I came here, I worked, I met them through work. They like me, I like them too. We became friends. Until today. From 1985 until today. That’s a long time. Sometimes, when I ask them, they help me. They are friends that I like to spend time with, but not very closely. I don’t dare. If we get too close, it causes trouble. It’s tiring. The best thing is when it’s just a little bit, that’s enough. Friends look out for us, and we look out for them too. But if we get too close, and something happens, if one of us says the wrong thing, it causes trouble. I don’t like that. It’s best to just be friends like that. Like that.
[i] And how do you get to Paris from your home?
[r] By metro.
[i] By metro?
[r] I take the bus to the metro. I take line 8 to go to Paris. Before, I would… I would go to Charenton. And then I would take the tramway to go to the 13th arrondissement. To go to the 13th arrondissement is closer than coming to Belleville. Going to Belleville takes more than an hour. There, it takes less than an hour. I go there to do my shopping. During the week, my daughter drives me there once or twice.
[i] Are you going there to do your shopping?
[r] Yes, my daughter drives me there. I don’t go there alone. It’s too heavy, she doesn’t want her mother to carry her things. I’m old… I’m lucky that way. [Laughs] I don’t need to carry too much. [Laughs] She thinks it’s difficult for me, she thinks I’m old, she doesn’t want her mother to do too much. That’s good too. In Paris. In Paris, my eldest daughter treats me well, I’m lucky. If she didn’t treat me well, I wouldn’t have a choice. Would I? It’s hard to say. It’s fate. It’s our own destiny. It’s OK… When I was little, I was also lucky. After I got married, I wasn’t lucky anymore. It was difficult. With the in-laws, it was difficult. The things I didn’t know how to do, I’d watch what my brother-in-law and sister-in-law did, and I’d help them. I’d see how it was done. Then I left… He [her husband] left first, he didn’t get the papers so that his wife and children could leave too. Suddenly, the ties were broken. It was over. How can a couple do that? Can’t they? Leave alone, and let the wife and children die there? If I hadn’t done the paperwork, and had wanted to leave, surely, with my four daughters, we would have died there. When he arrived here, he came from Thailand. In 1991, he arrived. My eldest daughter brought him to my house. I took his suitcase, I put it outside, I said to him, ‘Excuse me, I don’t want to live with you. If you come to live here, I’m leaving. I’m going to live with friends, I’m going to rent a flat from friends.’ I said, ‘I’ll rent the apartment, if you don’t want to leave, I’ll be the one to leave.’ That’s what I said. So he’s been living with my eldest daughter. Until now.
[i] Since 1991?
[r] Yes. Until now, he’s been living with my eldest daughter.
[i] I can’t accept it. My heart, it’s as if he had stabbed it. Isn’t it? It hurts a lot. It’s as if my heart was bleeding. How can you live with someone who has hurt you so much? It’s not possible. It’s not possible. My eldest daughter said to me, ‘Mum, you’re old now, it doesn’t matter’. I said, ‘It’s not possible’. I said, ‘You’re not me, you don’t know how much I’m suffering’. I am suffering. You didn’t have a father who loved you. I am suffering, my wound is deep. I said, ‘A single woman with five children is not a single child’. I said, at the time, I was a rich girl, I had no pay slip, nothing, I couldn’t rent an apartment. I was offered a job as a cleaning lady. He was a Vietnamese man from the 16th arrondissement, he had a lot of money. He offered me work. To rent an apartment. He had money, he said I could stay above his place. A room for me. With my children. I said OK to work. But… He said I didn’t look like a cleaning lady. But he agreed to hire me. He said, ‘Do it. Don’t worry, I’ll take care of your papers.’ Then I said… He said something, it was that… my children upstairs weren’t allowed to come downstairs to have fun. They weren’t allowed to come down to see me. They weren’t allowed. So I didn’t do it. I said, in that case, I won’t do it. Why shouldn’t my children have the right to see me? Isn’t that right? Working like that is difficult too. Because he had guests every night. Working like that is tiring too. He had guests over, and I could only sleep for an hour or two. I said, in that case, I’m not doing it. He said that if I worked for him, he would take care of my papers. Nobody was helping me with my papers. And I didn’t speak French. I didn’t know the legal rules either. What could I do? It was difficult. Later, I called on a lawyer, he was Cambodian. He told me he would help me get them. But he lived in the South. He told me to go down to the South to live there until I got my papers. How can I abandon my children to go there? How can you tell me to go there to your village, to live until I get my papers before returning to Paris? It’s not possible. I don’t know what you have in mind. So I didn’t go. It’s true. He said to me, ‘If you agree, I’ll go down to the South, and I’ll get you papers. After a few years, I’ll let you come back to Paris.’ I said, “My children, I wouldn’t know where they are.” I said, “In that case, I’m not going.” He was a Cambodian lawyer. A Cambodian. He’s probably a Cambodian who came to study to be a lawyer. But what he was proposing was weird, wasn’t it? Why make me come and live in your village? Wasn’t it? It’s hard to say. At the time, when I came, I was in my thirties, forties. He suggested it, I said, I’m not doing it. Later, an acquaintance helped me get my papers. On my residence permit, he declared me a little older. He said, ‘I’ll declare you a little older, you’ll be able to retire sooner.’ [Laughter] So I took his advice, because I didn’t know. So he helped me. That was several years ago.
[i] When you came to France, did you live in a hostel?
[r] No.
[i] Did you live in an apartment?
[r] Yes. First at…
[i] How did you find it?
[r] I first lived with my little brother. Then I lived with my little sister. Near Maisons-Alfort.
[i] Where?
[r] Maisons-Alfort. Créteil.
[i] Maisons-Alfort?
[r] I lived there for a few years.
[i] Did they come before you?
[f] Her [sister’s] husband came here to open his restaurant, he came first. He came first. At the time, I told him to come. In Hong Kong, 1997 was approaching. He was in Hong Kong. I said… it was better if he came to Paris. Since we were little, we have always fled from the communists. Until today… After 1997 in Hong Kong, it’s… It’s sad too, we’ve been running away for a long time, running away from there… We’ve been running away for a long time… In 1980-something, he came first. When I arrived, I first lived with him. Then he lived near an elderly person. She didn’t like children. At night, they would cry and scream, and she wasn’t happy. So I… My little brother told me to find a place to live, to move out, I had no choice. There were starting to be problems. So I looked for a new place to live. I didn’t have a payslip, so I was helped, in exchange for a little money, to rent an apartment in Vitry. There. I borrowed the payslip of my friend, which was quite high, 8,000 Francs. I was able to rent an apartment with three bedrooms and two living rooms. In Vitry. I lived in Vitry for a long time. Quite a long time. Several years. From the 80s onwards. From 1983. Until I moved to Choisy-le-Roi. Then I moved to Créteil. I moved to Choisy-le-Roi because I have a condition. I faint, I faint often. And… When I was ill, my daughter said to me, ‘Mum, you live too far away, we can’t look after you. It takes over an hour to get here, if something happens, we’d be too late.’ So I sold up and moved closer to them. That’s how it is. As I’m old, they can look after me. That’s how it is. I like it. It’s quiet there, I like it. I like peace and quiet. I don’t like it when it’s noisy. When I was little too, at home, I was quiet, I didn’t like talking. Later, I didn’t have a choice, I was doing takeaway. I had to talk to the customers. So I talked. In the restaurant, I talked to the customers, I had to talk. No choice. Isn’t that right? That’s how it is. Life went by, for a few decades.
[i] And now, how long have you been retired?
[a] I’ve been retired since I was in my fifties. About ten years now. Ten years. Because in my fifties, it was automatic. They told me not to look for work anymore. They said, ‘You won the lottery.’ [Laughter] In your fifties, they put you on retirement. They gave me my pension, which I still have today.
[i] And your last job was in takeaway?
[r] No, the last job was in a restaurant. Then I worked in a jewellery shop, for some Vietnamese people. Before I retired. I received a letter about my pension and I stopped working. That was that. When I worked, I received pay slips, it was average. My pension is not high. In Étampes, four people worked in my restaurant. A social worker came to my house to help me fill in some paperwork. She said, ‘It’s sad, I think it’s sad. You’re all alone, with five children, you’re going to work in Étampes. Go and learn to drive quickly, buy a car.’ That French woman was nice. She felt sorry for me. She helped me fill in the paperwork. She was nice. There are French people who are… nice people, who have a heart. It’s nice. They are affectionate towards me. They felt sorry for a woman like me.
[i] So you learned to drive?
[r] Yes.
[i] You learnt?
[r] Yes, I learnt, I got my licence.
[i] You got your licence?
[r] When I had just got my licence, at the time when I got my licence, my children had cars. Then I said I wanted to buy a car, but my daughter didn’t want to. At the time, I was doing takeaway. She said to me, ‘Mum, we’ve already got two or three cars, that’s too many. “There’s no point in buying, the furthest you go is to the 13th for shopping”. “When you go out, you take the bus, why do you want to buy another car?”. So I haven’t driven until now. I have the licence, but I don’t drive. Today, I still have my licence. But I don’t drive. I haven’t used it for a long time. I’m afraid, I don’t dare drive any more. It’s a shame. At the time, I shouldn’t have listened to my daughter. Today, I could have gone wherever I wanted. [Laughs] No choice. She meant well, it doesn’t matter.
[i] And now that you’re retired, do you hope to do things, travel…?
[r] Now that I’m retired… I hope to… do good deeds. Otherwise, if I have time, I’d like to travel abroad. Otherwise, walking around Paris is good too. I don’t want to think too much anymore. I’m almost at the end of my road. Thinking too much is pointless. Isn’t it? Today, with my two hands, I don’t want to do anything anymore. I don’t want to love anymore. I don’t know how to spend money anymore. So I’d rather go for a walk. That’s how it is, I don’t think too much. Because today, you don’t know what might happen tomorrow. There are people who go to bed and can’t get up again. Isn’t that right? You shouldn’t think too much. That’s how I am. I live from day to day. [Laughter]
[i] Do you sometimes go to the tourist attractions in Paris?
[r] Not really.
[i] Did you go before?
[r] Yes, before. I went a few times. To gardens, castles… But now I don’t want to go any more. I like staying at home, going to parks. I don’t like thinking about things or doing things. I’m old, my heart isn’t the same. Not like before. Before, as soon as I went somewhere, I would leave my things somewhere, I could leave for the day without any problem. Now, it’s no longer possible. [Laughs] It’s not like before, I had the strength. Some time ago, when I came back from Vietnam, my feet hurt a lot. I couldn’t walk anymore. Then, I didn’t see a doctor, I saw a Vietnamese healer, a healer who treated me. I saw a healer who was good. He’s been in Paris for a long time. Now, I don’t want to think anymore. I can walk, I can run, I go for walks, I can eat, so I eat. No point in thinking. Thinking too much is pointless. If I die, I won’t know. Will I? I don’t know.
[i] And your grandchildren, do you see them often?
[r] Yes.
[i] Are you close to them?
[r] Yes. The daughter, yes, but the boy has gone abroad [with his mother] and comes back once every three months. The lawyer has authorised him to come back once every three months. He is sad that his parents are divorced. I love him very much. When he comes in the evening, I look after him. I take one of my granddaughters to her Chinese class once a week. On Saturdays. To her class there. Her Chinese class. The girl is quite talented. She learns a lot of things. She knows how to dance. She knows how to play the piano, she knows everything. English too. She knows a lot of things. She’s a good student. She’s talented. There are two left who are grown up. The older ones include a girl who learns the piano at the town hall and is well-known. The town hall has taken her photo. My grandchildren are… intelligent. They do well at school. One of the boys is working. He has a French girlfriend. He is tall. But he loves Japan. They both love Japan and want to go there. They don’t want to live in Paris. At the moment, it’s not very safe. There are a lot of immigrants. Isn’t that right? There’s theft. They don’t like it there. My daughters married a Hong Konger and a Macanese. They often say they don’t want to live here, they want to live there. I don’t agree. I say that Hong Kong is too crowded. There are a lot of buildings. When there are no problems, it’s fine, but when there are problems, it’s tiring. If people are running, it can create crowds. Even if there is no insecurity, I don’t like it. But they say they don’t like Paris today. Because it’s changed, it’s not like before. Before, we felt safe. Now it’s getting worse and worse. They say they prefer life in Asia, but they say it, but they don’t go there, because they don’t dare to abandon their sisters, abandon their mother… The years go by, until today. They still haven’t left. They talk about it but don’t do it. One [of the stepsons] has an apartment in Macao, the other whose mother is in Hong Kong. But they talk about it… until today, they haven’t left. They say they want to go there when they’re old. They can eat whatever they want there. It’s convenient there. At that point, I don’t know where I’ll be. I don’t care, I don’t want to think too much about it. Right? Later on, it will be their business, not mine. I wouldn’t be able to see it anymore. I wouldn’t be able to take care of it. Would I? I don’t want to worry about it anymore. It’s fate. It’s fate. If I live a long life, I’ll see it, if not, I won’t. Will I? They have their… They have their own lives. Different from mine. It’s hard to say.
[i] I’ve asked you a lot of questions. Would you like to add anything?
[r] No. I have nothing to add. If you ask me, I’ll answer. If there are no questions, that’s best. [Laughter]
[i] Thank you.
[r] If you need anything, just ask me.