SU_P_05

[i] Hello.
[r] Hello.
[i] Could you please tell me where you were born?
[r] Cambodia. Phnom Penh.
[i] And when was that?
[r] When was that? It was during the war. 2 April 1975. 1975.
[i] And what were the circumstances of your birth?
[r] Well, in the forest. And it was, I don’t know how you can say it. There was no midwife, eh. It was my father. Who did… who delivered my mother.
[i] And why was she in the forest at that moment?
Well, it was… how can I put it? They drove out all the… all the people… from the city… Well, I was in the womb, eh. All I know is that… I heard about it from my mother, from my father and from the older people. Well, they were all driven out into the forest. All the people, all the inhabitants who were in the city. And then, well, they fled the war, you know.
[i] And this was when the Khmer Rouge took power?
[r] That’s it! That’s it! That’s it! I don’t really know the history, but I listen and I also watch TV. I also watch, how can I put it, these Khmer Rouge, let’s say. Well, for me, it’s… We know that there were a lot of deaths and all that. But anyway. They say that out of a million children who were born in the forest, one survives. But anyway, that’s fate, eh.
[i] Do you feel like a survivor, like you were miraculously saved?
[a] I wouldn’t say I’m a miracle survivor. But well, that’s our destiny. That’s all. There are those who are born into shit, there are those who are born into…
[i] And… how did it happen after you were born?
[r] So, in the forest itself, let’s say that well, everyone The adults, the grown-ups… That’s what I hear all the time, the stories, you know, about my grandmother. I didn’t really know my grandmother. I know my aunts and all that. I went back recently… That is to say, when we lost touch, eh. They were my father’s brothers and sisters, on my father’s side. They told me a little bit of the story, which I didn’t know. They had told me that, when… Well, in wartime, the adults, they know more about life than… than a newborn. That’s what my great-aunt told me. Normally, all the parents, they threw their children away, already. Because there’s shouting, crying, all that. They don’t want the Khmer Rouge to hear the crying, the shouting. And then that… how they hide when… to hide all that. And… Well, my dad decided to do what the others did, what the other parents did, and they left me alone for a long time. And then mum, on the other hand, told her mum that she had left her child. And the grandmother didn’t want to. She didn’t accept it. It’s the first child. My first son. And so my mother and my maternal grandmother came to find me, to look for me. They looked everywhere. But they managed to find me.
[i] And where were you?
Well, I don’t know where. In the forest! Some remote place, I don’t know. I don’t know. That’s what she told me, I don’t know. I don’t know if it’s true or false or real. But anyway, they’d rather save their own skin first. Because they know what life is. They know what life is. I understand them, eh. Me, I… I know nothing. I just came out of the womb, what do I know? I know how to cry, eat and poo, that’s all. Is that true or not? Well yes! But yes, they’re absolutely right! But anyway, I’m just saying that, well…. My grandmother, she left because of the Khmer Rouge, you see. Because of the hunger. She’s my… on my mother’s side, you see. But it was my paternal aunt who told me all that. And that it was all thanks to my grandmother, whom I never knew. On my… on my mother’s side. On my mother’s side, her whole family was… wiped out. Except for her little brother. Because her little brother followed my dad. My mum, grandmother, grandfather, brother, his older brother, whom I knew, on my mum’s side, everyone left. And, let’s say that… I repeat once again, if the story is true, it’s thanks to my grandmother that I am still alive, that’s all. That’s it.
[i] And what happened next? How long did you live in Cambodia before coming to France?
[r] For how long… Well, all I’m going to say is that I… I repeat once again… I didn’t make it up, it’s what I heard about my great-aunt, the family, things like that, that’s all. So, then… We had left, my dad… I’m thinking, eh, what they told me… My dad managed to escape to Thailand, I think. Yes. He managed to escape to Chonburi. And then, no, normally it’s Vietnam first… I don’t know, I’m not too sure. Well, the stories are starting to get all mixed up. But I remember it very, very well, it was when I was little, it was in Vietnam. And that my dad, there were… there were only two of us, me and my little brother. Yes, that’s it, if that’s what you mean. They went to Vietnam first. Yes, that’s right. They went to Vietnam first. How can I put it? Well, my dad, with nothing at all. When he arrived in Vietnam, he had nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. He slept in the street with mum. And he collected cigarette butts, that’s what he told me, my dad, er my mum. He collected the butts, and he smoked them. From the cigarette butts, the filters. He started to get an idea. So, for the cigarettes without filters, he collected the filters to make cigarettes with filters, which cost a little more. So, each day, he made ten, twenty, thirty, forty, and then mum would sell them all at the market. And after that, little by little, he started to have a… He started to have a little money, some money… a little, a little, a little. Well, with his savings, he managed to… to do… to buy tobacco leaves, factories, things like that. He got really rich. He became, shall we say, huge. Very, very well known too. That’s it. Just to say that… My dad, my father, he can do anything, even if he started with nothing. Even if… he arrived in France, he succeeded. Wherever he goes, he succeeds. And now he’s gone back to Cambodia. And he’s still succeeding. He’s 60 now… 1950. 10 September 1950. How old? 68. There you go. And after that, after Vietnam, well, we My dad, he had wealth, riches, all that. And, there was another war. He lost everything. And then, I don’t know, he ran away, we went as far as… We went to Thailand, to Chonburi itself. And there, there, how old am I? I was 6, 6, 7. 6-7 years old. 6-7 years old. Well, we’ve got nothing left, nothing left, nothing left, nothing left. Because of the war again. Because, with all his money, he can’t do anything. With all the buildings he has, everything has been… squandered. Taken by… by other people… What did he bring back? He brought back a few kilos of gold, he said. He brought back nothing but gold. And he arrived in… At the beginning, was it Krabi Town? After Chonburi. Krabi Town first. After Chonburi. And he couldn’t find a solution, because he’s… You know, when you’ve known wealth, you’ve always had maids, drivers, stuff, all that. And then, all of a sudden, boom, you’re back to zero. So what did he do? He wants to make a new life for himself through gambling. He gambles. He gambles, he gambles, he gambles. And for us, on the other hand, the arrival of little brothers and sisters. I have another little brother, my third. And then there was my little sister, she was very small. We are all… two years apart. There were four of us. We arrived in Chonburi. And we had nothing to eat. All that. I was 8 years old. From the age of 8, I remember very, very well. From the age of 6, 7 and 8, I remember very, very well. But the rest of the time, I remember that in Vietnam I was the only one who had a little bronze cannon to set off firecrackers on Vietnamese New Year. Chinese New Year, Tet. Chinese New Year. We set off firecrackers, and I dressed up all the time, really smart. I remember, when I was very little, that that was the highlight. But most of the memories were when I collected… Because Dad, he played all the time. We don’t have a penny, we don’t have anything to eat, we don’t have anything at all, we don’t have anything to wear. We… We lived… in a… in a straw house. Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. Me and my little brother, every morning, ‘What are we going to do?’ Well, as in all poor countries, every time, when I look at poor countries, I go back to my story. When I was 6, 7, 8, 9, even 10 years old, I arrived here. For… up to 10 years, during those four years, I collected… tin cans. Bottles, cardboard boxes, bags… plastic bags. To take to be weighed, to sell, to get a few pennies. I brought it for Mum. I held my little brother’s hand, we went collecting all the time. Everywhere. And I thought that well, I don’t know how many kilos, we got ripped off, seriously. We carried tonnes and tonnes just to make a few bucks, that’s all. And what did I do? I said to myself, well, if I save a little, I’ll buy bread. With condensed milk and sugar. I would knock on the door in the morning. For their breakfast, the rich… No, just for the record, rich, rich… It was almost a refugee camp. It wasn’t very, very big… And… a little something. Well, I sold that, and then I took that money and did something else. Well, let’s just say that… at that time, I… I’m not saying I’m a hero, eh. At that time, if I wasn’t there as… let’s say, I’m already a bit responsible. When I see that people bring their children to restaurants and stuff. Or they have food, and so do my little brothers and my little sister, but I’m the oldest. I do my best.
[i] Did you live in a refugee camp?
[r] Yes. It was a refugee camp, we couldn’t cross to the other side of Cambodia. I don’t know how my dad did it. So, we were, they sent us back to Cambodia. From Cambodia, we went into the forest, after my father, I don’t know, he left for Vietnam, then he went back, I don’t know what, to Thailand, I don’t know what happened. Well, I don’t really know the exact story. But I know it was very, very hard. When we were in that refugee camp. To say that… How can I put it… Well, you have to find money all the time for mum. All the time, all the time, all the time, all the time. I also did some… after selling after selling all the bread with condensed milk and sugar, I went to a lady’s house to make crushed ice. I put in syrup. I made syrup, and… I sold it for a baht. Just a baht, but sometimes, just to say that well, there’s never enough money… I’m not a thief, but I’m a bit forced into it. The lady, she’s… she’s not… the husband’s OK. But the lady, she’s not… She’s a bit off, you could say. So I take advantage of that. When I sell for 100 baht, I take maybe 20, 30, 40 baht. I put it in my pocket, I bring it to Mum. And… I understand, you know, people who steal. When you’re little. When they’re little, but I’m not talking about today, little Romanians, that’s… That’s something else, you know… it’s not the same. I mean, there are two meanings of ‘steal’. Because, for me, when I steal, it’s for my brothers and sisters. But, for them, when they steal… There are two meanings of ‘steal’, it’s… There’s a meaning that’s wrong, there’s a meaning that’s right for… Well, let’s say it’s not right. Let’s say, overall, it’s not right. But, for me, I was kind of forced to do it. You know, to feed my family. So, I got caught by the… by the older son. They’re… they’re two brothers. I stole so much that I got caught by the older son. I had 200 baht that day.
[i] The older son of?
[r] The gentleman who… who sells crushed ice. That’s it. And he caught me. ‘Red-handed’, as they say. I had 200 baht. And I offered to share it, 100 baht each. And he agreed. And then I was saved! That’s it. And some time later, it was the little brother who caught me. And I offered to share with him. And he said no, he was going to tell his dad. So I was scared. As a thief, you’re scared. That’s it. I was so scared, especially because my father wasn’t… someone who… In our country, the parents of our… generation of parents, they are very, very, very tough. When they hit us, it’s not with caresses, it’s not with little spankings like in France. The spankings here are, are hugs, really. To say that, he said, he’s going to tell his father. I, I got scared, right away, I took a pencil, I swung it at his head. Afterwards, he fainted, I ran, I saved myself. And I haven’t worked there since. What did I do? Well, I have to find the money again. All the time, all the time thinking. What did I do? I see… I found a solution. I see that the young ones have aggressive fish, fish… Fish… we call them fighting fish. Do you know them? Do you know them? Do you know them or not? They’re fish, like this, they’re really beautiful. Well, why, I’ll put this one, why I’ll put this one… This one, there. There. That’s the fighting fish. So, I see that people buy them for… 10 baht. Sometimes 50 baht for a fish like that, wow! But I say, I can… I can… how can I put it? I can try to reproduce them. No, how do you… make the children, make the babies. Reproduction? That’s it. Well, I took what little savings I had. By the way, I bought a male and a female. It doesn’t happen, it doesn’t work, I don’t understand. I don’t know how to do it, the solution to, to have babies. Well, I tried to go and see the other breeders, supposedly, well, to go and buy some fish, like that, and I keep watching. I go there all the time to see how he goes about getting the eggs, after the stuff, all that, I try to see. Arrived… The moment I found… Just when I arrived at a gentleman’s house, he had bubbles, lots of bubbles, and he removed the male, and I don’t understand a thing. And I always try to do the same thing he does every time. And then I succeeded. And it’s from there that… Wow, lots of money! One: 1 baht, one: 1 baht, all the time. There you go! [Laughter] There was loads of it! I won loads of money. There you go. And then, above all, the funniest thing is that… I’ll never forget it for as long as I live, it’s the… the New Year, the Chinese New Year. So I was also selling my fish, but what I love most is that I make a lot more profit than with firecrackers. Small firecrackers, I have… I was crossing the border. When you bought a box, a box of firecrackers, inside there were 20. The box was worth 1 baht. So I would take several boxes, lots of them, I would take lots of boxes, there were boxes for 100 baht, 200 baht. Every New Year, I would buy… I would buy… I crossed, but nobody dared to cross. Me, I… I slipped through like this, I just came to the stadium, opposite the school, I set up my stall, a very small stall with my firecrackers, I sold one for 1 baht. That means that with the box, I earn 19 baht. Every time I play. And every New Year, I have lots of money. And my mum is over the moon. That’s it. That’s what I love the most.
[i] Was that one of your best memories?
[r] But there are lots of memories… Oh, that’s great! That’s great. And why? I’ll tell you why. I love life over there, because we can live with almost nothing. I have a friend, his name is [friend’s name]. He’s an orphan. He lives in a small hut, all alone. And why I call him [name of friend], it’s a Cambodian word, it’s… Every time I earn a little money, I buy him an ice cream, and he eats the ice cream until there’s no more stick. He bites the stick. And he’s a very resourceful guy. So as I was saying that you can live with almost nothing… you can live… well, as a single person… if I were alone, for example, I might not be able to fly, but I could work, and earn all that. And live, eat my three meals a day, whatever. And to think that, with a slingshot, you don’t even need a fishing rod. We could eat meat, like birds and that. We could also eat small animals, insects, things like that. And the two of us always managed to find something to eat. Me and my little brother too. My little brother was with me all the time. All the time, all the time, all the time. To say that, afterwards, well after all that, back home, we were the last ones to have come to the camp in France.
[i] Where exactly was this camp?
[r] It’s Chonburi. Chonburi is on the border between Thailand and Cambodia. That’s it. And to say that, normally, in these camps, if you have… family abroad, in the United States, in Australia, in France, wherever, they can do what’s called a ‘mandate’ or what? They can arrange… They can arrange for you to… to come to their country. You see what I mean? And then, we also have our family in Australia, all that. But, on the other hand, my father doesn’t get along with his mum, my grandmother. And, on the side of… the paternal side, Nobody. Everyone resented my father. I don’t know why. At the time, he was rich, everyone loved him, and when he’s poor, everyone is afraid of him. And to say that in Canada, we also have family but, distant family. In the United States, too. Now, everyone is afraid of my father. That’s why I told you earlier. When you have, there are lots of them. It’s like… bees, flies. And when you have nothing left, you have leprosy or AIDS. Do you see or not? There you go. Even family, eh. And what about my father, we were stuck for four years. We were the last to come. So, the funny thing is that when we waited and waited and hoped that the family would… It was my father, eh, who told me that. We… We hoped that… how can I put it? [pause – he gets up to go and see his dog] So, to say that he waited more than four years, it was the last, the very last. The family could help us to go to developed countries. And that’s it. No, there’s no one. So as I was saying, the funny thing is that I come back to the day when he left, my dad left to see how to say it… the list of people who can go abroad, welcomed by foreigners… He had three names. Three countries. Straight away. One in the United… in the United States. The other in Australia. And the other in France. And he said in Chinese, I don’t know if you understand, or not? ‘Fuck, we’ve been waiting for four years, there wasn’t even one [country to take them], and now there are three!’ [in Teochew] He said, ‘We waited all those years, all those years, not even one, and now there are three! Three countries at once, where are we going? Which country are we going to?’ He thought about it… without really thinking, quickly, really quickly… That’s his thing. He doesn’t want to go to Australia because his mum is there. And he’s very upset about his whole family there, his immediate family, even his mum, his brothers and sisters. That’s it. He doesn’t want to go to the United States because he’s not going to see his family, his cousins, uncles, whatever, all that. There’s only France, there’s no one. He’s quiet. And he arrived. We arrived on… 16 June… 16 June 1986. Yeah. When we arrived, we were welcomed by… So I’d like to point out that it was France that adopted us. It was France itself that… well, they sorted us out and put us in… let’s say the lottery, maybe I don’t know. It wasn’t family, nobody… us… So France welcomed us, straight away, we arrived at a hostel in Nancy. What’s in Nancy? We had what, we had our own room. There was also, what do you call it, there was a director. And then there was also a translator. His name is [name of translator]. Now he lives in Paris. He lives in the 13th. Well in… In that centre, it’s all the… it’s all the refugees. And… let’s say, well, you can’t go anywhere without… without… We don’t know the language, nothing at all. Dad doesn’t know anything. We don’t know anything. We know nothing. They offer us… They also give us, there’s the canteen. And for clothes, the Red Cross gives us. And… Dad… He smells a bit bad, sorry it’s his ear [speaking of his dog]. And to say that, Dad, he says he doesn’t like to stay like that. Now, at that time, as he arrived in France, he no longer had any friends to play cards with. To… to… to use… to pass the time, to go and play cards. So, in his head, that’s it, it starts to work. What does he do? He starts to… Making little trinkets, little pieces of jewellery. Like this… a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. Then, by word of mouth, between the community in the camp there, no, in the centre, they talk to each other. He says, ‘Oh yeah, there’s Mr So-and-so, he knows how to fix things, he knows this, he knows… he knows how to do that, he knows how to do this.’ Little by little, it spread. And what he… he was missing was the raw material. He was also missing some small tools, all that. I’m talking about jewellery, you know. And what did he do? He bought himself a bike. I remember the bike very well, it’s… It wasn’t a normal bike. He said he bought a bike called a Peugeot. It was a Peugeot bike. You know, the racing bikes. Tour de France, the kind with the handlebars like this. Well, he used it to go back and forth, but quite a long way… Several kilometres to go and buy tools and raw materials to make his jewellery. Little by little, he made a name for himself. He made a name for himself, and then he also had one in relation to a friend of his who is from Thailand and comes to visit him. Sometimes he brings back a few small stones like that for him to sell. Little by little, well, he decided to come to Paris. And, in Paris, there were certain people, well let’s say, they’re quite nice anyway. I mean, well we don’t have any family but, it’s because… she’s my grandmother’s sister. She’s my great-aunt. All right? I say, we don’t have a family, but we do. Why, I say, we don’t have a family, because they also didn’t… how can I put it? Make… for us to come to France, that’s all. Do what’s necessary, you know. That’s what my dad says, I don’t know. And… And then my great-aunt said to my father, ‘But you’re crazy to come to Paris, it’s too expensive for you.’ All that. ‘Life is too expensive, you can’t live.’ All that. And what my father had calculated was in relation to his repairs. He’ll do a bit of ‘black’ work at home, and then it doesn’t matter about the rent. Fortunately, we’re in France, the family allowance, he has five children. He was getting 12,000… 12,800 francs, at the time, in family allowances. And the rent was 10,000 francs. He… he has a very quick mind, you know. Several families lived there, he was the head of the family, he was the one who rented the house. And he rented the rooms at a higher rate than the rent he paid. And he worked in a jewellery shop. And, to say that… Work. Then he asked… That’s really fate, eh. He asked the other jewellers in the neighbourhood. He asked almost everyone if there was a job going, that he wanted to work to get a good, fixed salary, all that. Because if you work at home, you risk getting caught, working illegally. And it won’t go far either. By word of mouth, yes. But the problem is that you don’t have a fixed salary because he has children to feed too. He asked everyone. And nobody wanted a novice jeweller who had just arrived from who knows where. They were very well known at the time, they were… They were Cantonese, Hong Kong and Vietnamese jewellers. That’s it. And then there was my father, we don’t even know where he came from. Nobody wanted him.
[i] And where was that?
[r] Well, in the 13th arrondissement of Paris. Well, straight away, he moved into a tower block. An apartment in a tower block, on the 30th… on the 29th floor. At 130 boulevard… boulevard Masséna. At Porte de Choisy, there. Straight away, on the 29th floor.
What year was that? 1980… We stayed in 1988. Here, there. And… Well, he asked everyone, nobody wanted him. Nobody wanted him as an employee. And what did he do, well… He’s still running his little business at home. And all of a sudden, he heard that… that… there’s a very small shop that’s for sale. And… He doesn’t know how to speak French, you see. He asked someone to go and translate. To go with him. And I remember the name of the gentleman very well, his name is Monsieur [name of the seller]. Because why, because his two grandchildren, I was at school with them, afterwards. He was a… a shoemaker at the time, and Dad, he only had 50,000 francs, at the time. And Mr [name of the seller], how much did he want? He wanted 180,000. The commercial premises, there. 180,000 francs. And my dad, nobody trusted him, nobody lent him money, nobody, nobody, nobody. And why, I say, it’s really fate. Because with that 50,000 francs, he asked that landlord, Mr [name of the seller], he said, ‘Listen’ – there’s a translator, right, it’s not him speaking – he said ‘Listen, I have 50,000 francs, I’ll give you these 50,000 francs, as soon as I start working, I’ll pay you.’ And the gentleman, he’s going to retire soon, he said, ‘Well, why not?’ in his head. He could see that my father was serious, and he agreed. Without paying the 130,000. 130,000, that’s on top of everything else, and without papers, without anything. Without signing, without anything at all, eh. Where do you see that? No, it really is fate. There you go. So, with this little place, right next to the Tabac des Sports there… To say that… 50,000 francs to him is nothing, he doesn’t have a penny left. Let’s say it’s an empty space. Nothing, nothing at all. We had to do the work ourselves. The four children, no the five children, with Mum, Dad, there were seven of us – Oh fuck, he stinks… [speaking of her dog] – taking stuff away, doing the painting all by ourselves, removing all the dirt, all that, cleaning. And, And we… we did our best. And when it opened, it… Mum managed to hide a few small diamonds. She sold her diamonds to buy costume jewellery, well, to make it a jewellery shop. She went to the 3rd arrondissement, Arts et Métiers, to buy little trinkets, fancy stuff, to put in the window. Well, the window is nothing, it’s… It’s really… Let’s say it’s an empty thing, there’s nothing in it. She started with 2,000 francs. Mum. There you go. And little by little, with… thanks, thanks… to his friend from Thailand who brings back stones, and there’s also word of mouth, there are diamond dealers who trust him. You know, Jews, when they talk about business, it’s only trust, with the mouth. With the hand. So my father, he loves that. He’s… very strict. He’s straight. When he says one, it’s one, it’s not two, it’s not right, it’s not left. That’s it. And then, in no time at all, he paid back all of Mr [name of the seller]’s 130,000. For the commercial premises. And it was from that little thing that he succeeded. With his 50,000 francs. You see, in life. You see, or don’t see, in life, it’s that… it’s really fate. You have to believe in fate. That’s it.
[i] And the shop, is it still there today?
[r] Well, it’s still there. It’s like I told you, it’s like I told you, there, 117 boulevard Massena. There you go. We arrived in France, we had nothing, nothing, nothing. What did we have? I was very thrifty. Dad, Dad, how can I put it? Can you imagine 50 francs? He authorised 50 francs a week for food, for the whole family, all seven of us. So that he could save up 50,000 francs. And if he didn’t have those 50,000 francs, I don’t really know what would have happened, that’s all. I don’t know if Mr [name of the seller] agreed to let him have the premises. The small premises. That’s all.
[i] And you, so… Did you like growing up in the 13th arrondissement?
[r] For me, growing up, compared to here, life here, in France, I don’t know why, I don’t find it… I don’t know how to explain it. I was happier, more joyful, when I was there. When I was 6, between 6 and 10. I feel free. That means that, we have to find something here, for me… it’s… I’m giving an exaggerated example. It’s like… what do you call it… Tarzan, he’s used to living in the jungle. When he comes to town, it’s a bit weird for him. But even I, even today, I’m telling the truth, eh, I don’t find that there, there, life… Life… Well, me, I’ll take… When I retire, I’ll go, eh, because my father is there, there. I’ll go back there. Because it’s good there. You can… you can fish, you can pick fruit and vegetables, you can eat everything that nature has to offer, you can… you can do everything… there’s nothing to do here. I’m telling you. But thank God for France. I’m telling you, thank God for France. Above all, there’s one thing we mustn’t forget, Dad, Dad, when he left me the shop… When Dad left me the shop, I paid for everything all the time. I paid for the RSI, the thingamajig, the whatsit all the time, I couldn’t stop moaning, I said, ‘But wait, why are we working, are we working for… for them or what, we’re not dogs!’ I kept saying that, and I was always complaining. I mean, I was exaggerating, we earn ten euros, we already give nine euros, we have one euro left. But you also have to look at it. Well, I’ve had psoriasis for ten years, but thanks to all that money, it’s not that In reality, what France, what they have, they have done in relation to the disease, to the Social Security, to the thingamajig, all that stuff, it’s really huge, it’s really good. Can you imagine a vaccine costing 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, 5,000? Who can afford that? No, we can’t. We can’t. So I’ve had this disease for ten years. Well, it’s only been … only two years since I’ve been treated with this vaccine. If I wasn’t in France, I would still have… those skin diseases. Well, luckily I’m in France. It itched everywhere! But also, it’s because of France that I’m stressed. [Laughs] There’s also that. Work, and here, it’s… Yeah, you have to pay this, pay that, you don’t know what! Once the customers, the supplier, you have to pay this. Sometimes I forget the EDF, they cut off my electricity, it’s forgotten, it’s not, not paid. It’s forgotten. And all that stress, it’s not good at all. Well, all that, I mean, it’s… It’s people’s lives… you could say it’s… developed countries, right? That’s it, isn’t it? All developed countries have too much stress, that’s why I don’t like it. I have… in my country, when I was young, but even then, I work, but without the stress. But we can also experience the same thing. Maybe over there, I… today, I’m 43, maybe over there, I live exactly the same as when I was 8 or 10. I do what I have to do, I have my three bowls of rice, that’s it, that’s enough for me. I don’t need a Porsche Cayenne or… We live today, and tomorrow we leave. We come with nothing, we leave with nothing. Why stress? For me, all this is because of… wanting! And that’s why, now, I’m not sick anymore, I don’t want anything anymore. I don’t want anything anymore. [Laughs] Can I smoke?
[i] And you, what kind of work did you do?
[r] Well, a jeweller.
[i] Ah, that too.
[r] Well, I left school at the age of 12, because I don’t know anything, I arrived at the age of 10. Straight away, they put me in a ‘CLIN’. Do you know what ‘CLIN’ is? It’s a preparatory class. It’s like, yeah, there I was in the class of a guy who was, let’s say, 10, 12, 14, 15, 16 years old, in those classes. And that means that these preparatory classes are to find out what level you are at. It was at Auguste Perret, right there. We were all refugees. What did we learn? ‘Gâteau’, ‘bateau’, ‘château’. Things like that, I won’t forget. But I didn’t understand anything. I don’t even know the letter A, and they… they already take me up to Z, I don’t even know the letter A. And what did they do to me? Once the preparatory class was over, the year, and that’s it, they put us in what class, whatever, all that. I ended up in CM2 straight away. I don’t even know A, and they put me in CM2. I went to see the headmistress and I said, ‘I don’t know anything, there’s no point in putting me so far ahead. Give me A first, then B, then C.’ Then the headmistress said that I was too old. Too old to be in CP. Me, I say, well… maybe CP, I know A, after maybe I can go up to Z. That’s it. Then she tells me, the most I can go is CE2. OK, I went back to CE2. So for the… for school, I say, it’s really catastrophic, it’s all zeros. Nothing but zeros. There was no subject, there was nothing. Nothing. School is rubbish. And Dad, he can see that I’m really terrible. Me and my little brother, well both of them, both of them, it’s always both of them, all the time. Well, he can see that it’s terrible, it’s not even worth it, he says to me, ‘Well, if you want to… You know what they say, ‘No work, no pay’?’ We sit there, we fiddle around, we try to… At first he gave me ten francs, then fifty francs. And… as time goes by, we like the money, we start to like the money. Because we see… because we start to know how to work. Making the bracelets, connecting the bracelets, all that. So on Wednesdays, Saturdays and Sundays, my dad works seven days a week, 24 hours a day. He’s… it’s no problem, you know. As long as there’s work. So, on Saturdays, Sundays, Wednesdays, Saturdays, Sundays, me and my little brother, we always go to the workshop, we do stuff. We used to get 100 francs, 200 francs all the time. And… School for us, for me frankly, honestly, at the age of 14, I don’t even want to do it anymore, nothing at all. In year 6, I did two years of year 6, two years of year 5, I did everything. Everything twice, everything. Everything, everything, everything, everything. And then, at school, they told me, the headmistress, she said to me, ‘Mr [name of witness], it’s OK! You’ve got all your qualifications, it’s OK now, everything is done twice.’ That’s it. Even Mum, well, she’s… she’s got the means, well, she even tried to put us in private school. With the nuns. No, we only stayed a week, well. That’s it, well. We only stayed a week, me and my little brother. We can’t. School’s not for us. It’s like yesterday, I met a friend, she says to me, ‘You know [name of witness], my daughter here, she’s 18, but she says to me, she says this to me, Mum, how do you get to be 20? I like being 20.’ I say, well… You know it’s like Donald Trump. Donald Trump, he has a million, he wants ten million. Ten million, he wants 100 million. That’s how people are. That’s it. And you’re already really good, 18 is already really good. I’m only asking for 1, I don’t even have that. 1 out of 20. I didn’t even get any, I always got… zeros. And what’s more, after that, I stopped school completely, and then, it was the juvenile court judges, I don’t know what, they caught us. It’s forbidden until the age of 16 or 17 or whatever, studies, school, compulsory. And then… We went to the judges, me and my little brother, and then I explained to the judge that I just don’t like school. I like earning money. Well, I’ve always liked it… it’s not… Yes, that’s it, I’ve been working since I was very young. Is that true or not? I already know how to earn money. Since I was 8 years old, I’ve known how to go and collect cans, I know what it means to earn money by your own means. And now I feel good about myself, when I go somewhere, I always have money in my pocket, nobody says anything. And the judge, she says, ‘No, you have to go to school until you’re 16, 17’, I don’t know how old, and I say, ‘If I don’t like school…’ She says… well… With time, she said, ‘Well, I have an idea. You stay with your dad, but try to go to school anyway. And then I’ll find you a training centre, OK?’ Training centre. You have to be a certain age to enter. It’s a youth and community centre. And then… Well, I said, ‘OK’. I said to her, ‘But Judge, what’s a training centre?’ She said, ‘Well, if you like this job, you’re already in the jewellery business with your dad, and I’m going to put you on a jewellery course.’ I said, ‘OK. All right, but on the other hand, I don’t want school involved in this, jewellery is jewellery! It’s not maths, technology, I don’t know what, natural sciences, the funky thingamajig. I don’t want it!’ I said that to her, you know. Then she said, “Don’t worry.” All right. So two years passed, I enrolled in the training centre in Saumur. Do you know Saumur? There you go. Near Angers, Tours, there. I arrived by train, everything, with my rucksack, click, click, click. On the first day at school, I saw ‘mathematics’. Straight away, I went back to my… we have the… what do you call it? The buildings for schoolchildren there? The stuff there.
[i] Boarding school?
[r] That’s it, our boarding school. But you have to take the bus. Straight away, I left the classroom, went back to my room, took my bag, took my train ticket, arrived in Paris. Yeah.
[i] So, back in the 13th arrondissement?
[r] Yeah! No, at the beginning, there were already a few little manuals there. A few little things at the beginning. But then I saw all that maths, I didn’t want any of it. And that’s why I went back. And… to this day, I honestly say, I thank who, I thank Mr [name of the director], he’s the training director. In Saumur. He called me and said, ‘You know [name of witness]’ – he called the shop on purpose, you know – he said, ‘You know [name of witness], listen, you’re good at that, the practical side’. He explained everything to me, he’s trying to… slowly, slowly, and it was from those words that I taught my children the same thing. OK? I’ll explain later. And he explained to me that ‘Practice makes perfect for theory. Even if the theory, that you have 0.5 points, you don’t have to get a zero, that’s all. Because I’m sure that in practice you can get 19, 18 or 20, that’s coefficient 100’, whatever. ’I don’t know anything about your coefficient whatever. I know nothing at all, your mark, all that, I don’t want maths, I don’t want French’. I keep repeating that. Then he said to me, ’No. Listen to me [name of witness], I can guarantee you that… the most important thing is that you get 10 out of 20, you get your diploma.’ I said, ‘If I get 10 out of 20, what if I get zero everywhere else?’ ‘Well, you can’t get zero, you just have to put your name and the date. When you take your exam, you don’t do anything you can’t do. But the most important thing is the textbook. You’re very, very good at… at the textbook.’ I said… I said, ‘Well, Mr [name of the headteacher], I’ll see, I don’t even know what you’re talking about, I’ll be wasting my time at your school. I don’t like school, I work for my dad, I earn money, there’s no point in me going. There’s no point at all.’ He said, ‘Try to get your diploma, then do what you want. You’ll see later.’ That’s it. I thought about it the following week. So the sessions are alternated, right. One week at the boss’s, one week at school. I stayed a week at my father’s. After thinking about it, well, I decided, I said ‘Dad, I’m going’ [in Teochew]. I said, ‘Well, I’m going to school’. He said, ‘Well, go on, off you go.’ So I went. Little by little, I’m beginning to understand a bit better about these coefficients, and it makes me want to work even harder in practice. In the manual. Manual, right? Practice. Manual. That’s it. Frankly, I didn’t give a damn about the theory. And even the teachers know very well that… well, with technology and all that, every time I came to class, I sat at the back and did something else. Yeah. Well, thanks to [name of the director], everything he explained to me, and I always had… I had, then, the jewellery, the jewellery, I had… I had, I had quite a few diplomas thanks to him, best worker… apprentice of France, all that. All that is thanks to him. I always had the average. That is to say, exactly. 10 out of 20. [Laughs] Okay? Well, 10 out of 20 is just for practice, that’s all. And the rest of the 10 points are all zeros. That’s it. And… I still had one more year to go. I asked Dad, I said, ‘Dad, I have one more year left, I’d like to do it.’ Because I’d only ever won the silver medal once. I didn’t want to win the silver medal a second time. So I said to Dad, ‘Dad, I’ll do another year to win the gold medal.’ I won the gold medal, and then he said to me, ‘OK, that’s enough.’ But I asked him for another year, to get the BMA. It’s the certificate for arts and crafts. He said, ‘That’s enough, we don’t care about those diplomas, you work for me, then you’ll work for yourself, you’ll be your own boss’, he said that to me. Yeah, well, I thought about it, I said OK. Well, it’s true, he’s right in a way, eh. It’s better to be self-employed. But to say that… we are… To say that it’s really fate like… Look. For example, Mr [name of the director], he never saw me in the manual, in practice. But I don’t know why, he calls me to explain the coefficient thing. Otherwise, I would never have got my diplomas, that’s all.
[i] And you, are you of Teochew origin?
[r] Frankly, I don’t really know. Even my daughter, just recently, she just asked the question. Shame on me, I don’t even know what to say to her. I was born in Cambodia. My father once told me that he was… that he was Vietnamese Teochew or something. Mum too, it’s… it’s all mixed up. Well, for me, the best thing is to say that I’m Asian, that’s all. And honestly, I don’t know what to say. I was born in Cambodia, yes. Well, me… it’s like, I had a discussion with my daughter. Last week. ‘But Dad, if you were born in Cambodia, well you’re Cambodian!’ I said, ‘Yeah, but I don’t have Cambodian blood!’ I was born in Cambodia. For example, I said to her, ‘Listen, my dear, if you take a plane and you’re just at the border of Mexico and whatever, what are you originally then? It’s not the land where you were born, that you’re what…’ What is it? What is it? What is it? What are we originally? Me? An example? It depends, from grandfathers, great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-
[i] So what languages do you speak?
[r] Well, I speak fluently, fluently, fluently, the… the two languages that I use a lot are Cambodian and Teochew. Cambodian, really, honestly, I… I speak Cambodian a lot. I use it, yeah.
[i] And you learnt it?
[r] Here. But I learnt Teochew a lot with Mum and Dad.
[i] Do you also feel French?
[r] French? Well, to say that…
[i] Or Parisian?
[r] Do I feel French? Well, it’s… it’s our adopted country, I don’t have another country. It’s like I said, when I joined… a network… for my work. He said to me, ‘Hey, you’ll need a foreign criminal record… no, er… refugee’. Afterwards, I applied everywhere. It doesn’t exist. That’s it. Then I went to see the secretary. I said, ‘Excuse me, this document doesn’t exist, criminal record refugee.’ She said, ‘Yes, it does.’ I said, ‘No, it doesn’t exist, I’ve asked everywhere. I’ve asked the Cambodian embassy. I even asked my father to ask his friend who is a high-ranking official in Cambodia, he said, ‘No, there aren’t any’. I asked OFPRA, there aren’t any, I asked everywhere! But the chick is doing it on purpose, because she doesn’t like ‘lemon peel’, that’s all! There you go! But I told her that I… I don’t have a country anymore! I was adopted by France! My adopted country. What if one day France wants to throw me out, my adopted country wants to throw me out, but it doesn’t even know where to throw me out to! This is my home! And even I don’t know where to go! Because I’m not even allowed to go to Cambodia. I’m not allowed. You know that, right? That’s it. Even if, even if I want to go there, I can’t go. If I go, if France… well, let’s say, a little bit jealous, I go back to my dad. And then, then the French dad, he’s going to be angry! He’ll say, ‘You’re not coming back to live with your adoptive dad! You’re going back to your real dad…’ But where? He’s not there, my da… er, the country, I mean. I’m talking about the country. That’s it. I’m not going to risk going back there, where I know… I’ve got nothing there… My whole life has been here, you could say. But I’d like to go there later. And that’s why I keep applying for French nationality, you know!
[i] Have you already taken any steps?
[r] Oh, when I was 18, I ran into a racist, but it was my fault. I’m too nervous, when I was younger. It’s my fault… I came across a racist. Every time, I bring all my papers, there’s always something missing. And it’s just bad luck. Honestly, the counters, the counters, there are five, five people working. Every time, you have to take a number. OK? I take the number, I say, ‘Oh no, not her, please, not her, not her’, I wait for that number, right on the dot. The appointment is in six months, right! I take that number and I keep praying. ‘Not her, right’. She was black. And every time, she says to me, ‘There’s a document missing’. One day, third appointment, that’s 18 months later, I was 18, right. That means I’m almost 20 now, 18 months later, right? I’m almost 20 already. I asked when I was 18. And… And, third appointment, I say, ‘Madam, excuse me, could you… Well. Now, I’ve brought all my papers with me. All my papers are here. The very last time, six months ago…’ You can imagine, three times in a row, three times, I came across this lady. ‘Can you tell me, just in case, please, I’m begging you, because it’s been six months since the appointment, and I have to come back for a little piece of paper that you say is missing. Every time it’s missing, I bring it to you. But make me a whole list, I’ll make sure nothing is missing.’ And I don’t know what she replied. She said something that I didn’t like. But I’m sure that she’s a… I don’t know, she’s not French! She’s black. She’s a foreigner like me. She’s a foreigner. But she said something that was really, really unacceptable racism. What did I do? I took the file, I gave her a slap in the face, and I headbutted her. And I ran away. I said, ‘Fuck you!’ I ran into her, and now I regret what I did. But I don’t regret what I did to her! I just regret losing my papers. I regret it because she’s… she’s useless! She does it on purpose. Once she asked me where my school report was from. I never went to school in Nancy! Nancy, it was in a hostel! She said, ‘The first day when you arrived! Where were you?’ I said, ‘Well, I was in Nancy.’ ‘Which school?’ I said, ‘I didn’t… I didn’t go to school!’ It was the school in the hostel! ‘Well, go and ask for the… the school certificate from your school, in the hostel!’ I said, ‘But it’s not a school!’ ‘Well, find me proof of that!’ I said, ‘How can I find proof of that, if there isn’t any?’ Well, after that, I went to Nancy to ask around. And the centre no longer exists, you know! It no longer exists… And I had to find someone to find the gentleman, but he’s passed away, and now I have to find someone else, Mr [name], by writing a letter saying it wasn’t a school! That’s it.
[i] And did it work?
[r] But then there’s something else missing! There’s always something missing with her! All the time, six months, six months, six months, she waits until I’m 60 to get my French nationality! No, then… Well, I threw that file away. A few years later, I reapplied. Afterwards, it said ‘Case number 5’. I don’t know what that is. ‘Case number 5’, I don’t know what that is. I can’t apply for French nationality. For the moment. In my opinion, well, I thought that maybe it was because… I threw the file in her face. And that the lady isn’t dead yet. Well, I’ll wait! And now, I’ve tried to get it done again. But since I’ve been ill, I haven’t had time to do it. There’s the hospital, there’s stuff. There are… there are lots of things. But now, I’m going to restart my file. I was told it was easy to do. But anyway, in my opinion, the lady is already dead, eh. It’s over, eh! That’s it! Well yeah, she was old… But anyway.
[i] You hope… Once you have this French nationality, what do you hope to do with it?
Well, to see the land again! The land of my country! That is to say, when we left that little hut there… Well, my dad called me on the phone, he said to me, ‘There’s no more of that, there’s no more of that place’, everything, everything has changed, everything. Well, that’s normal. It’s been 30 years. 33 years. No, when we left, I remember that my dad planted a banana tree, a very small banana tree. And just to say that… In my head, I still have the image of that house, made of straw. There. And it’s going to bring back a lot of memories.
[i] Are you looking forward to it?
[r] Yeah, honestly. Yeah, I’m going to… And that’s why I go to Thailand all the time, because it’s the border. I go there all the time, every year I go to Thailand. And I especially go to Koh Samet. They only speak Cambodian. I feel like I’m in Cambodia. I feel like I’m in Cambodia. Can we stop for a moment? I really want to smoke.
[i] So, in the… in the… the 13th?
[r] Yes?
[i] Do you like living there, and what do you like doing there?
[r] For me, it’s… always the same. Nothing’s changed. [Laughs] Nothing’s changed! Well, you see people leaving, you see young people growing up, you see… well… It’s… always the same, always the same.
[i] Is it like a village? A village… Let’s say that… For me… With childhood friends, I can say yes. Acquaintances… Not really a village… Everyone knows each other. Yes, all that, but well. Well… Nothing more. I’ll give you an example. It’s really… hard to believe but it’s true. Can you imagine? I remember, I lived on the 10th floor. When the neighbour, the mother, the neighbour’s mother, who passed away, and we, all the neighbours, all the whatsits, in the 30-storey building, nobody knew that the mother had died. They did the funeral, the whatsits, all that. We, as all the neighbours, didn’t even know. You see, you can’t really say it’s a village. Because childhood friends, stuff like that, yes, pals, clientele, all that yes. That’s… Work is something else, but on the other hand, there’s work, business, childhood friends and all that, I don’t know how to put it, because, [in] a village, everyone knows everything. That is to say, oh yes, who cheated on whom, who gave birth, who… who died… who has what… That’s it, who does what, who does this, who does that… But anyway, here it’s work, work. What is it? It’s nothing. For me, it’s really… Well, as I said before, the example I gave there, when you have the neighbour next door who… you don’t even know that his mother is dead. That’s it. And in the whole building, and to tell the truth, I’ve been living there for ten years. Ten years, in this flat. Sometimes, I see the neighbours’ heads, whom I’ve never seen before.
[i] And do you also go outside the neighbourhood?
[r] Oh yes! Well yes! Well, I’m a traveller, eh!
[i] So what do you like to do in Paris?
[r] Sorry?
[i] What do you like to do in Paris?
[r] In Paris?
[i] Which neighbourhoods do you like? What do you like doing there?
[r] When I was young, let’s say when I was young, I almost, let’s say, I almost… You can’t say you’ve done everything in life, you’re always discovering things. Well, let’s just say that I’ve done almost everything. Almost. I’ve seen almost everything, and… To say that, as of today, I don’t even want to go out anymore. I don’t want to go out, I don’t want anything, I want to travel. Just to see the world. That’s it. Well, when you… you say Lille, Bordeaux, Lyon, Montpellier, all that, I’ve been everywhere. And then the Paris suburbs, I have lots of friends in Lognes, Torcy, Bondy, all that, Aulnay. All that, in Vitry, in Ivry, Villejuif, Kremlin-Bicêtre, all that. I know almost everyone.
[i] I’m talking about Paris itself. Are there any neighbourhoods that you like more than others?
[r] Paris itself, so I’ll… I’ll tell you something that will make you laugh, but it’s serious! I’ve been in France for 33 years, and my aunt, who came from Australia, showed me lots of photos of the Louvre, the Eiffel Tower, and all that stuff. Then I look at her and say, ‘Auntie, I’m sorry, I’ve never been.’ [in Teochew] Then I said to her, ‘I’ve never been.’ She said, ‘What! That’s serious! How can you be so stupid, since you’ve been living in France, you haven’t even been once?’ [in Teochew] [Laughter] I’ve never been! Well, the stuff, the museums, the things, all that. You know, as I said, I’m not very monument, very culture, thing, I’m really nature. Have you seen or what, I love animals, that’s it. I like, I like what? Paris, for me, there’s nothing! For me, there’s nothing! But… it’s very pretty, and it’s very, very beautiful, their architecture, their stuff, their buildings. The old Haussmann buildings, all that… Oh, it’s too beautiful! Paris is very, very, very, very, very, very pretty. But hey, for me, that’s it. It’s everyone’s own way of seeing it. Everyone has their own vision, their own way of seeing things. How can I put it? All that luxury and stuff is very nice, very beautiful, but what I love most is the countryside. I love the countryside! For me, Paris is nothing. It’s nothing at all.
[i] You’re not attached to Paris?
[r] No, not at all. Not at all. Like in all the restaurants there, in the 13th. I know, I go to that restaurant for one dish. I only go to the other restaurant for one dish. You’ve been there for 33 years, I’ve already eaten everything, everything… Everything. For example, you ask me for a rice lok lak [Cambodian dish], and I say, ‘No, hey! You have to go there!’ A Krop mu [Thai dish]? For example, a Krop mu, ‘Oh, you have to walk to the other side.’ There you go, pho [Vietnamese dish], the best pho, ‘Oh, just down the road from me, there!’ There you go… Or else kueh chap [Teochew dish], ‘Hop, over there!’, there you go! Everything, I know almost everything. Well, you know…
[i] You know it like the back of your hand, in fact.
[r] But yes! But yes! That’s why I don’t want to go out any more! I go out to meet customers, that’s all. That’s it. What is it? Why? I like nature, it’s picking up… how can I put it… Looking at leaves. Looking at insects, at animals. Discovering nature! There’s no nature here, there’s nothing! There’s nothing, just concrete. What did we eat? We always ate the same thing.
[i] And your children, were they born in Paris?
[r] In France. Yes, in Paris.
[i] How many children do you have?
[r] Joan of Arc. Two. A boy and a girl. 19 and 17. I asked her if she wanted to come too, my daughter. She said, ‘No, Dad’. [Laughter] I asked her if she wanted to come.
[i] And do you tell them your story?
[r] Yeah. I say it’s not easy, before when Dad with Grandad and all that… You’re lucky, enjoy it, school and all that, but Dad… Why did I explain that to them? Education is important, I didn’t know that… I thought that… my manual work, it’s… what do you call it, it’s our livelihood… our… My hand is my bowl of rice, as a jeweller. I thought to myself, well, I’m going to leave, I’ll go where I want, I can live. That is to say that, with this, it’s my master key, it’s my key! There you go, I make a few little trinkets, that’s it, I’ve already got my bowl of rice! There. But I didn’t think that, well, I was going to get sick. When I got psoriasis, it was severe psoriasis. It affected all the joints in my hand. And then my nails started to spiral out of control. I couldn’t even touch anything. I couldn’t even write. And how do you want to set diamonds for customers? I can’t. And that’s why I’m… because of this disease, I’ve lost everything. I have to start all over again from scratch. And what solution have I found to start over from scratch? I’m not going to go back to jewellery, because I still… I still feel pain, I still feel pain. I’m still afraid of not being able to do what I love. When I make jewellery, it’s like I’m caressing a woman. The material. The thing, when I touch it, when I make it, I like the shapes. I love it. So when I make something that isn’t beautiful, I’d rather not do it. So that’s why I completely changed fields. I’m a property consultant now. You only use your mouth and your head. You don’t need to use your hands. So my mouth talks a lot. It’s useful. I didn’t go to school for my head, but it’s OK. It’s OK. That’s why I tell my children, ‘Study, before doing manual work.’ That’s it. ‘Try to get qualifications.’ ‘Try to go as far as possible, if possible… Dad, he doesn’t force you to do anything. But Dad, he… prefers you to have your qualifications. As a… Well… Do your best, that’s all.’ I hope so. I hope that… the best for them, whatever. But I thought manual labour was for life, but no, it’s not true. There’s nothing for life, nothing at all. That’s it. Even if you’re the best in the world, everything can… everything can change. That’s it.
[i] And how do you see your own journey?
[r] Me? To be honest, I’m… Let’s say when I’m in… The more I grow up, I find, I am less intelligent than when I was… I was 8, 10 years old, because I had a lot of… It’s working a lot, it’s… the poorer you are, the more you… you dare. Do you understand what I mean or not? Here… I really regret it, it’s not… France… I say they’re good. But not good either. Why do I say that? Because in our country, when you have nothing, you really have nothing. You have no help, you have nothing, nothing. If you don’t have any trousers, you don’t wear any clothes. If you don’t have anything to eat, you starve to death, you die, that’s all, that’s it. If you’re ill and you don’t have any money, you die. That’s it. But here, as a miner, you steal, you mug, you kill, you have… You have no prison, you have nothing. You don’t work, you wait for unemployment, then unemployment, then you get the RSA. They feed you all the time. In France, eh. And notice something else too. Me, I have… People for example, the Chinese there, or the others, the foreigners, who come illegally, who don’t even have any papers, who haven’t even… contributed a single euro. Well, they give birth there, he’s sick there, all that. Everything is taken care of! I don’t think it’s… something But I don’t know how to explain how it works. Some of it is good, and some of it is not good. The not good is in relation to us, those who work like crazy. Like I said, well France is great in relation to Social Security and all that. But we have contributed for ourselves, for our family, for us, the people who have contributed together. But you have people who are, as illegal immigrants, who arrive with… I don’t know, it’s not a question of jealousy, but the way France works. I’m not jealous, eh. I don’t care, eh. But that’s just to say it, that’s all. No, but is it true or not? Is it true or not? No? Everyone has their own opinion? Everyone has their… There you go. Everyone has their own way of seeing it. But anyway, well for me, it’s just to say that… France is too nice. Too, too, too, too, too nice. There is… What they do is very good. But there is, there is what they do that is not good at all, why, because, they are too nice, there. If they were less nice, France would be very, very rich. And, there, there, I’ve just seen there, that they are going to attack… they are going to go… Normally, France is richer than the other countries again, eh. They’re starting to take… French Guiana, it belongs to France, I already knew for a very long time that they were going to mine gold in French Guiana. They’re going to attack there, right now, right now. Now, starting next year, I think. And then, it’s going to be a big hit in France. France and French Guiana. And… That way, they’ll lose less… I don’t know how to say it, how to explain it. Look at the people who come to steal gold in French Guiana, all the Brazilians, the Colombians, all of them. They come to steal, they have nothing, they have no problems. They have no prison, nothing at all. Look at the prison here. Prison here, you’ve got Canal+, the telephone, a gym. It’s better than a five-star hotel. That’s why you’ve got loads of delinquents, loads of young kids who do all sorts of stuff. But it’s true, eh. Look at China. You steal there, you have… you have no more arms. You rape there, you have a bullet in the head. Yeah. That’s how it is. France is too nice, much too nice.
[i] So about your own journey? That’s the question I was asking earlier, are you proud of your journey? How do you…
[r] Ah, I didn’t answer the [question], I was spiralling down at that point… How do I feel?
[i] About yourself?
[r] About my career?
[i] Are you happy with it?
[r] Well no, no, as I said before, I preferred it when I was 6. Oh yes, I’ve answered! I prefer it when I was 6, 10, and I’m looking for myself… And now I’m back again. Here, we work like crazy. Why, it’s so that little delinquents there… That’s all. Well, I’m back. There, I’ve already answered. I prefer it over there, and that we live. We live, that is to say that… Well… If you’ve got nothing, you haven’t got any trousers to put on… well you’re completely naked, you’re stark naked. If you’ve got nothing to eat, well, you’re… you’re starving, that’s all. But here, you have everything. So I prefer it over there. I prefer to fend for myself. But here, to say that what I think is… I say, I repeat again, that France is great compared to… For us, for us, the people who deserve it. All those who deserve it. For example, the people, the pensioners, the poor, right now. Compared to Macron, for example. I don’t know much about politics, but that’s what I hear. OK, I’m not much of a politician. Pensioners pay contributions until the end, but how long do they have to live? OK, out of 100 people, you have one who is a centenarian, OK? Even less, OK? You retire at 65. Is that right? Is it 65 or 70? Anyway… Well, people have paid contributions up to that age so that they can live comfortably, and now they’re being taxed again. They’re going to be taxed again. Have you seen or not, that they are on strike there, that’s it, eh. It’s because it’s because of Macron’s law on pensioners, that’s it, eh? I think it sucks, eh. But we have to leave the old people alone. Well, yes.
[i] We’re coming to the end of the interview. Do you have anything to add?
[r] No, nothing.
[i] OK, thanks!
[r] I’m thirsty and I feel like smoking!
[i] Thanks a lot!