SU_P_04

[i] Good morning.
[r] Good morning.
[i] Could you please introduce yourself first?
[r] Of course, my name is [name], I’m 36. I’m a Cambodian refugee. I arrived in France in 1983, on 16 March to be exact, at the age of 2 months. I’ve been a sales representative in the vocational training sector at La Défense for 10 years now, and I live in Paris.
[i] So where exactly were you born?
[r] I was born in [name]. So, in fact, I was named after the town where I was born. So in Thailand. But I’m a Cambodian refugee because I was born, so to speak, on the road. My mother is from Phnom Penh and after the Pol Pot regime, she wanted to find freedom in France. Why France, because my aunt was already in France, her sister. And I was born on the road because my mother had to make the journey from Phnom Penh to Bangkok on foot. With a whole group of migrants including my aunt, my grandmother and my big brother, who was 1 at the time. So I was born in [name], then we went to Bangkok to catch the plane, and I arrived in France when I was 2 months old. 2 and a half months.
[i] So your parents lived under the Khmer Rouge? Did your family live under the Khmer Rouge?
[r] Yes, absolutely. My mother lived under the Khmer Rouge with my grandmother. It’s a very matriarchal family, at least in our house. My biological father also lived under the Khmer Rouge. And they split up because of the Khmer Rouge. Because my mother had to come to France but my father couldn’t follow because he couldn’t leave his mother, who was too old at the time, to make the journey. In fact, Phnom Penh – Bangkok, and so he stayed behind. And now everyone has rebuilt their lives on their own. My mother with her two sons, then me and my brother. And my father-in-law has finally, sorry, my father, has found, found his wife that he had lost, his first wife that he had lost during the Pol Pot regime.
[i] OK. And… [i This… Do you know the life of your parents in Cambodia, your family in Cambodia before you were born?
[r] I know it, because beyond my mother’s generation, which is very matriarchal, my family is very much centred around my grandfather, who is in fact, well, my mother doesn’t like to talk about it too much, but we’re part of the Cambodian royal family. My grandfather is King Sihanouk’s uncle. So, throughout her childhood, my mother was part of what you might call ‘high society’, even though she wasn’t bourgeois either, not French bourgeoisie, if you like, or French aristocracy. So I have echoes of my mother from her youth. It’s true that she doesn’t talk much about the regime. I know that, like many people, she worked in camps and, in particular, was forced to work in rice paddies during the regime, to support the family. My grandmother was always with my mother, her youngest daughter. Her older daughter went to France in the 1970s, before the Pol Pot regime broke out, with her husband, simply to live. She also had two daughters there. Otherwise, as far as my mother’s life in Cambodia is concerned, I’d say that she’s only kept the good aspects of her youth. Because I have a very strong feeling that the Pol Pot regime was something very hard, very heavy, for her, in terms of the past. She lost a lot of people during that regime. Her first husband in particular. And then, I [don’t] know if it’s due to the regime, or if it’s because the… I’d say the… local medical system wasn’t as developed as in France. But she also lost a daughter. So there’s quite a lot of history there, and I can understand why she doesn’t necessarily want to go into that. I know that today she hates watching films about the war in particular, that sort of thing. It’s left its mark on her, that’s all. It’s left its mark on her, but she’s very quiet about it.
[i] Do you have any questions about this story? Do you want to ask questions? Do you want to know more?
[r] Yes, because in the end I have a rather distant vision insofar as even though I was born in Thailand, all my schooling, all my adult life, I lived in France. I guess you could say I’m more French in a way than Cambodian, because I’ve got the whole French culture. I went to nursery school in France, I went to primary school and so on, right up to my higher education. But… I think I’m… I’m interested in the history of my country of origin, but in the same way that a French person can be interested, I would say, in a certain way. I wouldn’t say that I have a certain distance, but almost. In the sense that we were brought up in Cambodian culture, particularly Buddhism. In terms of religion, my grandmother, after being… well, when she became a widow, turned to religion and became a nun. When she was still living in France, she spent most of her time in pagodas, with the monks and nuns. I grew up with this whole culture of respect for elders and traditions, but at the same time, my mother always wanted us to be completely integrated, in a way, into French culture. In other words, my mother and I don’t speak Cambodian at all, very little. We speak French. I only spoke Cambodian with my grandmother. I’ve lost a lot of Cambodian. My mother never tried to enrol me in a Cambodian writing school, as some of my cousins did. I can speak Cambodian, but I can’t write or read it. For example… and I think that’s due to his desire and also his fear, well mainly his fear that we wouldn’t be integrated, that we wouldn’t be seen as French. So, to come back to the question, yes I am interested in the origins of my country, but it may be horrible to say, but it’s not visceral. In other words, today I’m a political refugee, so I don’t have the right to return to my country of origin, quite simply, otherwise I lose refugee status. In any case, there’s nothing missing for the moment. I’d like to do it, I’ll become a citizen, or at least I’ll become a naturalized French citizen later on, for this main reason. Clearly, it’s really to be able to return to my country and to have the right to vote in France. I think those are the two main reasons. But I have, yeah, I have this distance in any case towards my country which is perhaps particular. I know that in my family, that’s not necessarily the case for everyone.
[i] And was staying Cambodian something you wanted to do?
[r] In a way, unconsciously, yes I’d say so. To this day I’ve been accused of… When new people, or even colleagues, realise that I’m not French… Inevitably, even as a joke, they say to me, ‘But do you have papers?’ Yes, I’ve got a residence permit, yes, I’ve got… I’ve got Cambodian refugee status. And, in a way, I want to keep this Cambodian nationality because it’s perhaps the only link I have left with my country. Even if I keep my distance, as I said earlier. I keep a certain distance, but at the same time, I’m very attached to this… to this Cambodian nationality because it’s… the official link. It’s paper on paper that says I come from this country. That’s why I’m not rushing to get my nationality either. Apart from the travel part, where you have to get visas when you leave the Schengen area, that sort of thing, which is a hassle, which is more expensive, clearly. But that’s it. It’s still equipment. Maybe in a way, I’m saying it really unconsciously because, when I become French, I’ll also be very happy to be French. And to have the right to vote and to be able to travel more easily and to be able to go back to my country of origin. But beyond that, yeah, I think deep down it means something to me to stay Cambodian.
[i] And in your family, are there other people in this situation?
[r] I’m the only one. My mother was naturalised quite late, but maybe five years ago. My brother, a bit earlier. But then again, he must have been over 20. Then there are my cousins, who were either born in France or naturalised as well. I’m really the only one, at least in my close family who… who has kept this specificity, this status.
[i] And what do people in your family think of this choice?
[r] Well… In a way they’re a bit annoyed for me because my mother’s… biggest dream would be for us all to go back to Cambodia together at least once. Well, in particular, to see my father before it’s too late, in a way, because he’s getting on in years. And then, of course, I’m the only one who can’t go today. That’s another reason why I’m applying for naturalisation, so that I can experience this moment. I think it will be completely unique and… and what’s more, it will bring my mother a great deal of happiness. So… but… but they’re worried because it bothers them that I can’t travel when I want where I want. Beyond the Schengen area of Europe, it’s… even to go to London, I have to have a visa that costs 100 euros. Well, it’s silly, but it’s more expensive than a plane or train ticket. So that’s that. My best friends also live in London. They’re French people who’ve been expatriated there, so… For me today, it’s also important… to… to move forward. In any case, at that level, on the ‘naturalisation’ part. To be freer. It’s silly to say. But, in a way, that’s it.
[i] Would you feel you’d lose that link with Cambodia if you were naturalised somewhere down the line?
[r] Deep down, I think so. I think that even if it’s this change that will finally bring me closer to my origins and allow me to return to my country of origin, there will be something less. Yeah, there will be… Well, I’m not at all ashamed of my status. I’m not at all ashamed of having a residence permit. It’s not a plus… well… if it’s a plus to be French for the right to vote and… and travel. But beyond that, sincerely, I feel clearly French Cambodian, Cambo… Franco-Cambodian in a way, even though I don’t have any French blood at all. My culture, a large part of my culture is French. But there’s this… this base, this Cambodian root that I don’t want to lose, and… Ideally, I’d love to have the right to vote, while keeping my nationality and refugee status and being able to travel as I please. That would be the best… the best situation for me. But well, that’s not possible. [laughs]
[i] And what image do you have of Cambodia?
[r] Unfortunately, I still see it in some ways as a developing country. Even if when we left it, that was already the case, even if it was a dictatorship. Today, unfortunately, and… I’ve heard echoes of this from a cousin who is French but of Cambodian origin, who has gone back to live in Cambodia to open a business with her French husband. I wouldn’t say it’s a third world country, maybe not. But in any case, I have the impression that, in economic terms, it hasn’t been able – and this is hardly my criticism of my country – to catch the wave that neighbouring countries like Thailand, Vietnam and even Laos have been able to catch. It’s starting to develop as a tourist destination, but I think it’s taking a long time. After that, maybe it’s also a desire on the part of the country and the government in place to keep this authentic side, which is also important… If the temples of Angkor are surrounded by hotels, I don’t think the locals will be happy with that. But, yeah, unfortunately, in a way, I still have the image of a country that’s perhaps a bit behind its… its neighbours. Beyond that, it’s still… I want to get to know the… also another part of my roots, which is the… the side, the principality that was Cambodia. Even if my mother completely puts that part aside because it’s not the part… that… that’s the most important for her. Cambodia is a principality, it’s quite unique… And it’s still part of my family, so I’d like to know a little more about the links I can have with this type of person. And… I’ll always be nostalgic, even if I don’t know this country, it seems strange. I don’t know it, I’ve never been there. But there’s a certain nostalgia, yeah. When I see photos, old photos of Phnom Penh, or with the local dress, it’s… I think it’s beautiful. I think it’s beautiful and I’d love to be able to see it.
[i] And do you have any links with other people of Cambodian origin here in Paris?
[r] Apart from family, not really. It’s true that we often have an image of… I’m not going to talk about Cambodians, but Asians in general, as being very communitarian. Maybe when I was young, when I lived in the suburbs of the 93, we were a bit more communal. Even if it’s always been mixed with different… different origins. I don’t necessarily want to be close to and surrounded only by people of my own origins. No, I… Around me, there’s everything. Yes, there are French people, there are Africans, there are Arabs… And I like this multiplicity. Maybe it’s the fact of… of being a foreigner, of having come to France, and especially to the 93, where it’s a real cultural melting pot and a real melting pot of different origins, and that’s what I like. And today, that’s my group of friends. My colleagues are like that. And that’s what I appreciate in my life. I don’t necessarily like racial communitarianism, in a way. It’s not… After that, everyone does what they want. But that’s not what I’m looking for.
[i] Do you take part in events about Cambodia?
[r] Quite recently. In fact, I’ve only been going for two years… – I’m talking about my adult life, anyway, today – to celebrate the Khmer New Year at the Vincennes pagoda. Because beyond… celebrating the elders, etc., the new year… It’s really folkloric and it’s… well, it’s something, in Vincennes. It’s a huge crowd. I almost feel like saying, even though I [don’t] know the country, you feel like you’re there. With all the street vendors… We eat local… well, ‘local’, Cambodian. And that’s it. It’s been two years now, and I love going there every year. Apart from that, when my grandmother was here, we had a lot more religious festivals, especially at the pagoda. All Saints’ Day, in particular the Khmer festival of the dead, and… all the other festivals whose meanings I don’t know, to be honest. But my grandmother and my mother tried to inculcate and teach us via the religious coast and Buddhism.
[i] Apart from the religious practices once a year, what else is Cambodian about your daily life?
[r] Food. Whatever people say, I grew up on Cambodian food. My mother still does it today. It’s… I think it’s really the main daily connection I’ve had since I was a child. To this day. I’ve got fish sauce, oyster sauce. Garlic cooking… it’s… it’s intrinsic to me. And I continue to do so, even though I’m cooking French cuisine, and sometimes I add spices or Asian things. Beyond that… I’m still thinking about it, but as a Cambodian, I’m… I’ve been so immersed in French culture that… I’d say… not me personally, but my nephews and nieces all have Cambodian first names. In any case, it’s something that, in our generation, my brother and my cousins… They’ve always given a Cambodian middle name as well as a French one. After that… yeah, it’s… I’d say the language too, we still speak a bit of Cambodian with my mother, even if the majority is French. And then, it’s going to be little… little gestures. When we see each other as a family, we don’t shake hands, we ‘sathouk’ as they say. You put your hands together and say ‘hello’ like that. And then there are other little cultural things that were instilled in me when I was a child. Polite gestures to make, or especially things not to do. Like touching an older person’s head. Putting your feet up on the table… well, it’s silly stuff but… Putting food on the floor, in Cambodia, that’s… that’s not done. In France, the French do it, but it’s something that… that I’ve kept, and that I do unconsciously in fact. It’s so unconscious that I realise as I speak that it’s actually due to… my Cambodian upbringing.
[i] And you spoke earlier about your identity. Do you feel as much French as Cambodian?
[r] I’d say so, yes. But I’m very attached to my Cambodian roots. I love the Cambodian language. I like being able to speak it. I’m a bit disappointed that… speaking less and having lost so many words. I think that when I was 5-6 years old, I spoke Cambodian fluently. Because with my grandmother, it was part of everyday life. Today, I understand it very well. I speak a little. I [don’t] read it at all, I [don’t] write it at all. I’d say that… Cambodia is my base, and France is what was built around it, and on top of it, in a way. Because of my schooling, and I’d even say because of the personality I’ve built up over the years. I think I’m very Western in my everyday life, in a way. Even though there are still some… I would say… certain values that are linked to my country and my Cambodian culture. I often come back to respect for elders, because that’s really important to Cambodians. But beyond that… I’m perhaps going to be more of a loudmouth than a Cambodian… [I’d say from the older generation. It’s true that… Western culture perhaps teaches us more to… to… assert themselves. To be less… in the shadows perhaps than our past generations, as Cambodians. In the past, it was mainly ‘Don’t make waves!’, ‘Don’t get too noticed! ‘Work hard!’ Basically, you shouldn’t be the grouch or the loudmouth at school. I wasn’t necessarily a loudmouth but… In any case, today, as a working professional, I… I know perfectly well that I’m not, that I’m more, I demand my rights more, in any case, than my mother did in her day. Or… when I want something, I say it. Which is not necessarily the case, I’d say, for a typical Cambodian. So I think I’m really a mixture of all that.
[i] How long have you lived in Paris?
[r] I arrived, in fact, I arrived in… Cambodia, we left for Créteil in 1994, but I really don’t have any memories. The first memories I have are of Athis Mons, in 91, where we lived in a big flat with my mother’s sister. So we’d join… her children, her husband, so we were… and my grandmother. So with the children, there must have been about ten of us, in a big flat. After that, I started my primary education in Aulnay-sous-Bois in the 93 district, where I stayed until halfway through secondary school in 4th year. There were always some very fond memories and… What really stood out for me during that period was the mix. A real melting-pot, and the mix of cultures. Honestly, there was no racism. And I felt good there, even if you could say it was the suburbs and the ‘zone’. Apart from that, there was so much to be gained from it that I think it was of enormous benefit to me, at least for the rest of my life. After that, I stayed a lot in the 93, Neuilly-sur-Marne, Noisy-le-Grand. And I arrived in Paris itself, after my studies, at the age of 23. I started working, got my first flat in Paris and then… And since then, it’s been 13 years that I’ve been a ‘pure’ Parisian, so to speak. But at least within the city.
[i] What did you study?
[r] I did a baccalauréat ES and then a bac +4 in management, a master’s degree in management sciences in fact. At the University of Marne-la-Vallée, in 77. So I didn’t stray far from… where… where I lived. I wanted to, because I loved the area. But then there was the ‘Parisian life’ aspect, which attracted me enormously. Because also my first experiences were… I actually started out in press relations, as an assistant press officer in some of the big luxury houses: Jean-Paul Gaultier, Louis Vuitton in particular. Clearly, it was a very Parisian world. Which is what I liked. Clearly, that’s why I moved closer to Paris, and ended up in the inner city.
[i] And what areas of Paris have you lived in?
[r] 11th, a lot. Voltaire. My first flat was in Voltaire. I’m thinking now, 11th, 20th… And, for three years, in the 3rd arrondissement, rue des Francs Bourgeois. It was a great flat, but I’m better off in the 11th. And now, for the past week, I’ve been living in the 20th arrondissement. In the 20th arrondissement, on the Gambetta side. I like the… Well, I think it goes back a bit to what I was saying about the suburbs and their multicultural side. The fact that it’s popular, but very respectful. And very commercial, and that’s what I like about Paris. Anyway, I lived in the city centre for three years, in the historic Marais district, just a minute from the Place des Vosges. You had to do it, because it’s nice. It’s the ‘bling bling’ side and very… I’d say… Yes, it’s the historic side of Paris. But I feel more at home in the 11th or 20th arrondissements, which are very popular shopping districts, and where it’s still very safe in the evening when you go home. But I love the lively side of Paris.
[i] And these are also places where you go out?
[r] It’s places where I go out from time to time, to take… yes, bars, restaurants, in particular. After that, it’s true that I’m much more familiar with the 3rd and 4th arrondissements. Because it’s more or less my HQ with my friends, for a drink or an aperitif. After that… as a young Parisian… it’s true that you also move around depending on where the entertainment is. These days, more and more events take place in the eastern arrondissements, the 11th and 20th arrondissements, so that’s good for me. It brings me closer to home. But I’m… more into the 11th, 20th, 3rd and 4th arrondissements. Very ‘rive droite’. And it’s important to me.
[i] And you work in Paris too?
[r] Well, today I’ve completely left the world of fashion, luxury and communication. I’m a sales representative in professional training, in the IT sector, at La Défense. I started 10 years ago with Cegos, Europe’s leading training company. After that, I worked my way up through the ranks. Today, I’m head of commercial partnerships at IB, which is a former subsidiary, well a subsidiary of Cegos. But I’ve been in three or four training companies in 10 years. And… I also like Paris. It’s the possibility of changing jobs because you can… you might think that in other places, going from comm[unication] to sales is a completely different skill set. Being able to live in a city as big and full of opportunities as Paris also means that you can… change direction more quickly, more easily perhaps.
[i] And outside work, do you have any hobbies?
[r] I’m going to say sport, even if I have to go back and it’s been a while since I’ve been in a gym, like a lot of Parisians. Cinema… I like the… I like the cultural life of Paris, I like being able to go to exhibitions, there’s Klimt at the moment that I absolutely want to do. So I try to do a bit of everything, theatre, without having a passion… a big passion that I spend several hours a week on. That was the case when I was younger, with sport in particular, I practised figure skating for several years when I was in the suburbs, in Neuilly-sur-Marne to be exact, in the 93 region. These days, in Paris, I twirl around depending on the exhibitions and what’s on at the cinema. After that, it’s more… friends Well, I have… my second family, my friends. So we see each other very often. We go on holiday together, and we spend time talking and it’s just as good, and just as rich. That’s what I like.
[i] Could you see yourself living anywhere else? Today, no… A little later, why not? Why not, for what reasons? Because Paris is extremely expensive in terms of rent, let’s face it. You almost have to be a millionaire to get something decent and widely accessible in Paris itself. I’m not talking about the Paris region at all, because that’s clearly more… conceivable. Later on… I’d say in the second half of my professional life, at 45, I can see myself in a big provincial town. Why not Montpellier, Lyon, Bordeaux? I’m still very much a city person, so that’s why I can’t see myself moving to the countryside. I need a town where there’s a lot going on culturally and in terms of entertainment. If only for the restaurants, bars and that sort of thing. But… where it’s perhaps more… affordable, you might say. I [couldn’t] go to London. London is a disaster People say Paris is expensive, but London… It’s even worse! Yeah… southern city… But… it’s silly to say, but it would be really good for my finances. If I could live in Paris and buy a three-room apartment with a terrace in Paris, I’d do it. Because I love this city, I love its history, I love its light. I’m used to saying that I love… all I love in Paris is taking a taxi at 5 o’clock in the morning, coming back from a party and walking along the quays of the Seine and seeing all the lights on the monuments and I find it so magnificent. And as a refugee… seeing the gap between what my… family went through, the misery in which… because it was real misery in which my family lived. My mother had to give my brother water that wasn’t even drinkable when they were making their journey to Bangkok… for fear of poisoning him, but he absolutely had to drink it. And what I’ve got today is still marvellous. I realise that it’s still wonderful… All the way my family has… the whole road we’ve travelled together… Because it’s not just me, it’s my mother too, it’s… Everything she’s given me in my 36 years, and without her I’d never have got where I am, I think.
[Do you think about that a lot?
[r] All the time. Yeah, well, I think that’s also very Cambodian. Maybe it is. The recognition you get from your parents… Especially since… in France, my father stayed in Cambodia. She was a single mother with two children. She didn’t have any great qualifications either. Today she works as a leatherworker for Louis Vuitton. But before that, she worked for Peugeot in the factories… assembling cars… And when I see what my brother has achieved, or even myself, no matter what anyone says. We’re both highly educated. He’s a landlord, he’s got two kids, he’s married to a lovely woman. And, well… Me, the pace and… the life I have today, I’m an executive. I can’t complain in terms of salary, well… Well, I’ve… it’s a gift, in inverted commas, that my mother gave me… And, God knows, she did everything she could to make us happy when we were little. We were talking about figure skating earlier. And you could say that it’s a rich man’s sport; if you want to do it intensively, it costs more than 8,000 euros a year. So that’s quite a lot for the budget of a single mother. It was more than 700 euros a month. Not counting equipment. These are the sacrifices she made. For my well-being and so that I could fulfil my potential, as I wanted to. And then I went to school, same thing. Four years after the baccalauréat… Well, I think it’s also thanks to her that my brother and I managed to become independent fairly quickly. In other words, when I was 17, I had my first permanent job. Even if it was just a job… food, on top of my studies. I wanted to be independent quite quickly. I remember when I was 16, I told my mother that I was going to… that everything I was going to get in my student grant… with my job… and that when I was 18, I was going to leave her and go into a student residence. So that’s… And I think that’s thanks to my mother, yeah. It’s all about education. And I’ll always be grateful to her, for the rest of my life. And I hope she’s aware of that.
[i] Is she proud?
[I think so. I think so, even if, like all families, we’ve been through some difficult times. And, above all, she’s the… the last to stay… And I’ll say it clearly. I was brought up by three women. My mother, my aunt and my grandmother. My grandmother and my aunt left us a few years ago. In the end, only my mother remains as the real pillar for my cousins, my brother and me. And I think she’s proud of us. Yeah, I think she’s proud of… the… it’s silly, but when my brother became an owner, when he bought his house, she was really happy. Now she has two magnificent grandchildren whom she pampers and… Yeah, I think she’s achieved her goal now. She’ll always worry about her children, but she’s a mother. Especially a Cambodian mother. It’s… but I think that yeah, she’s… she’s happy with where we are.
[i] And what is your relationship with your brother?
[r] We have a relationship, we were… were very close at school. We had the same group of friends. After that we’re very different, in the sense that I’m, I think I’m very Parisian. He stayed in the 93 with his wife. And he never wanted to come to Paris… There was a time when I needed to get away from my family. And I think they’re aware of that and they’ve understood that need. When you leave… it seems very close to Paris when you’re in the suburbs, but it’s very, very different. You [don’t] really realise it when… when you [don’t] experience it, but… For a suburbanite, coming to live in Paris, perhaps even more so when… when you’re a refugee or an immigrant… It’s an evolution. At least, that’s how I experienced it, and I think that others experienced it in the same way. It’s like… touching the capital. I’m also… at the time, I was more of a party person. I went out a lot more… I liked the night… Going to clubs, that sort of thing. And… and I have the impression that it was only in Paris that I could really experience that. And it was only by living in Paris that I could live it to the full, in any case… And I don’t regret it. I don’t regret it. I’ve experienced good things and bad things, like all Parisians. But there you have it. I’m attached to this city. I’d have a really, really hard time moving back to the suburbs. As I was saying, I’d rather go and live in a big provincial town than in the suburbs. That’s my Parisian side, and completely Parisian, yeah, for… for 13 years. [laughs]
[i] And you and your brother still see each other regularly?
[r] We see each other, we even try with my mother, and I also have a half-brother and a cousin, who’s like a sister, all four of us… get together for a family lunch every month. We’re trying to stick to it now that my mother has extra grandchildren. I want to see my nephews grow up too. Yes, we’re close every month. We’ve grown closer… So we were close at school. We drifted apart a bit during high school and university. Everyone went their own way. I was also in a couple quite early on, when I was 18. I was living in a flat with my partner at the time. And… we’ve been getting really close for… maybe 3-4 years… Yes, I’d say 4-5 years… where we tell each other everything. In other words, my brother and I got to know each other as adults, I think. We knew each other as children. I’d say that adolescence was a period when we split up a bit. Me too, of my own making. And now, yeah I think over the last 5 years, we’ve discovered each other as adults. We really don’t hide anything from each other. I think I’m lucky to have a great brother who will always be there for me. And… always… No matter what I do, no matter what happens to me. He’ll always be a real support. And he’s clearly much more, I think much more Cambodian than I am… in the sense that… It’s not a reproach at all, it’s more in the sense that… The way he puts family at the heart of his life. Maybe too much, I’d even say. In terms of his own family life, I’m talking about his wife and two children. I think… his blood family took up too much space at one point. But that’s the way he is. For him, family is more than anything else. Even more than me. And… that’s remarkable! It’s remarkable.
[And for you, that’s… Cambodian?
[Yeah! Yeah, I think so, clearly! I think that well, I say that it’s Cambodian, because that’s how my mother instilled it. The family will always be there for you… Whereas I’m trying to detach myself… Well, I think I’m the Western side of the family, because… Earlier, I was talking about my friends… My friends are really my second family. Maybe… some of them are as important as my brother, I’d say. But if mother heard that, I think she’d kill me. [laughs] Because… because in our culture, in the upbringing I’ve had, it’s family. Family comes first. And my brother does it very well, he does it completely… without… without bitterness… well, he does it willingly. He’s naturally like that. I call him in an emergency and he comes straight away. And… he can put his life on hold for a member of his family. It’s a sacrifice that I find, yeah, yeah, admirable. I think that’s really the word. And my mum’s the same. They’re both very similar in character. I don’t want to say I’m the… the ugly duckling, but I kind of am, I think. Yeah, you are. But, there you go, I totally respect that. I’ve become closer to my family over the last few years than I have in other years, because that’s what it comes down to. And they’re always there for us.
[i] And this project of going to Cambodia together, it’s going to happen in… how long?
[r] Well, as soon as, I’ve always said and I think that will really be the case, as soon as I have my nationality. This will be my first trip. I… I don’t want to go to another country outside the European Union, because I’ve travelled… in the European Union, in the Schengen area. But… outside those countries, I think I’d really like Thailand and Cambodia to be… Well, Cambodia in any case, really. Thailand because I lived there, I was born there. But I have no real ties, in terms of culture, in terms of family, apart from an uncle who lives there. But I don’t have any… Thai origins. My origins are Cambodian. Thailand was a… a stage, in a way. So… Yeah, I hope… I hope in 2 years maximum. I hope in 2 years at the most, because I’d still like to meet my father, who I’ve never actually seen, because my mother left Cambodia pregnant, without knowing she was pregnant. So my dad didn’t know my mum was pregnant when he left her. Otherwise, he would never have let her go… I mean… Yeah, if only to put a face to someone I’ve only spoken to on the phone. You have to. In 2 years time. That would be my goal, yeah.
[i] And do you talk regularly? I mean, do you ever?
[With my father? When I was younger, yes. After that… It’s strange to say, but since I’ve never really seen… Cambodian… He speaks with quite a strong accent as well. So I don’t understand him completely. We’ve spoken on the phone maybe five times in my life. But it’s not a lack. It’s not a lack because my pillar is my mother. She was my aunt and my grandmother. And my mother started a new life with another man whom I considered more than my father in a way, because he was there for me more… well, I knew him when I was 5. We don’t exchange that much and I don’t miss that. After that, I think it was a real heartbreak for my mother to have to… let him stay. But she’s made a good life for herself. She’s… she’s happy now. So… Even he’s happy. So that’s the main thing.
[So he never left Cambodia?
[He never left Cambodia. He did it all because he had quite a few children. Some went to the United States… I think all his other children have gone to the United States, two of them. I know he’s a hard worker. He works in… I think he has jackfruit fields. And he also works with peat, from memory. Stuff that makes houses… well, to build houses. And now I think he’s stopped because he’s getting old, he’s got health problems. But… But no, he never travelled, he never came to France. Because he’s still a farmer there. He’s still someone who doesn’t necessarily have any money. And anyway, the money he has, he puts aside so that his children can have a better life, and in particular two who have gone to the United States, so… It’s very Cambodian! Well, for me, it’s… it’s more or less the ideal of the Cambodian family that I see, it’s really… dedicated to his family, his children, and his… and his parents. It’s the very example. I [don’t] know if I could do it, but I find it courageous and admirable.
[i] And your brothers and sisters, you’ve [never] seen them, then?
[r] Never, not the same. Those who are in the United States, I’ve spoken to them on the phone once or twice. There’s a certain distance, because even though we have half our blood together, we’ve never really seen each other. My brother met them when they went to Cambodia, and so did my mother. But I’m really the only one in the family who doesn’t know the Cambodian family who still live there and those who live in other countries around the world. Because we’ve got some in Berlin, we’ve got some in Réunion, we’ve got some in Singapore…. We’re quite a large family. You should know that in Cambodia, polygamy was… at least at the time of my grandfather was… it was common. So he had several wives. And when we talk about the Buor family, we really mean… all my grandfather’s wives. And that makes a very, very large family. I usually laugh, but I say that half of Cambodia is my family. Well, almost. But that’s almost it. Yeah, I’ve got brothers, I’ve got sisters… younger ones. I’d like to meet them. But… in a way, my family is in France. It’s those who arrived with me and those I’ve met, with whom I’ve also grown up. And I don’t lack them. In any case, I have this vital need to go and meet them. If I do, all the better, I’ll be really happy. If I don’t, it’s because life doesn’t… want me to meet them.
[i] And is this vital need present, for example, in other members of your family?
[r] I think my brother was… had more of a need than me… to go to the country quickly. To introduce… he also introduced his first son to… his grandfather, my father. And his wife too. But he’s the eldest in the family, and I think he’s always been much more attached to our Cambodian roots than I am. I don’t deny them, I’m attached to them. But I… It’s there, it’s in a corner. I’m [not] necessarily trying to… attach myself to it. I mean, I’m attached to it, but I don’t necessarily claim it. I [don’t] know how to say it, but my brother is much more… He speaks much better Cambodian than I do. And he even tries, I’d say, to… speak it as often as possible with my mother. That’s not necessarily the case with me. Yeah, my brother’s much more attached. My cousin, who’s gone back to live there too, even though she was born in France, did some work experience when she studied in Cambodia and rediscovered the country. She decided to come back and live there for I think 8 years now, something like that. And she likes it there, I [don’t] think she’s going to come back to France. In any case, it’s not in the plans but Yeah, and I think it’s the two older ones as well. My cousin, so the sister of the one who lives in Cambodia, but she’s in France now. She and I are the two youngest, and we’re … she [doesn’t] speak Cambodian at all. She understands it very badly. She was born in France too. But… The two of us, I think, the younger ones, are perhaps the ones who have the most distance from our culture of origin. But my mother respects that. My mother understands that, I think. Even if she absolutely wants me to keep this base and… this little knowledge I’ve had about my country and my origins.
[i] So you’d like to do this trip in… 2 years time?
[r] Yeah.
[i] Does that mean you’re going to apply for naturalisation?
[r] Quite quickly. That’s kind of my next step. The flat was the first. The next step… well, I really want to do it because, apart from Cambodia, I love to travel. I really want to discover the world and other continents. I have to admit that when I see my best friend travelling all over the world, I have this… craving. I could travel to other countries. But I have to admit that I’ve been hugely traumatised, I could almost say, by the French administration. Particularly when it comes to residence permits. I did all my studies in France. I arrived when I was two months old and my mother had it. I absolutely had to get my residence permit in order to take the baccalaureate. Because you need an identity document to take the bac. So I… I had to go… at the time, I was in the 93, we lived in the 93, and I think the worst prefecture is Bobigny. At least at the time. Things may have improved in the meantime with the Internet era and online appointments. But, at the time, we were queuing at 4 o’clock in the morning. And that’s true. My mother and I had to take mornings off every time to get my identity document. So that meant a few less days’ pay. I had to miss school. And we had to go four or five times because the number of tickets is limited. And some people even slept there. It was revolting, really, at the time. And I want to apply for naturalisation to get away from all that. To be able to apply for a birth certificate more easily than having to take half a day and go to OFPRA. Apparently it’s possible online, but it doesn’t seem to work, I don’t know why. But there you go. There are still disadvantages to… remaining a political refugee in terms of administration and travel. And… I absolutely have to get my application in quickly. And after that, it’s just a waiting game. I’m not worried about the investigation and… the interview. Apparently, there’s an interview with… a… sworn officer. That’s it, after that it’s just going to be a waiting game. But above all, you need to have all the papers, and that’s something else. I’ve already done that twice. And my files have been lost twice. So… There you have it…
[i] At OFPRA?
[No, at the prefecture. At the prefecture. To be honest, OFPRA is better organised than the prefecture. What’s more, the prefectures depend on… the prefectures where you live. So the 93 is organised differently from Paris. And in Paris, it depends on the arrondissement. So, depending on the arrondissement, it’s going to be simple, but depending on the arrondissement, it’s going to take a long time. If only to change your address on your resident card. It can take three months. Normally, the address has to be changed within two weeks. So there’s something wrong with the rules, in short. I’m not going to go on and on about it, but there you go. I’ve… they’ve lost my file twice. Because I’ve also changed prefecture. Now I’m in Paris, I’m going to do it again. And then, I hope it won’t change… there won’t be any problems. And in two years, I’ll be in Cambodia, yeah.
[i] So they’ve lost the applications for naturalisation every time?
[r] Yeah, applications for naturalisation, exactly.
[i] So this was something you’d already done?
[r] Exactly, with all the documents. And fortunately today, I have the impression that the papers required are lighter. The first time I did it, they still asked me for all the… school certificates I’d had since I came to France. So I had to list all my schools from primary school… well, right through to university. Knowing that I’ve done two collèges I’ve done…two primaries, yeah. Two primary schools, two secondary schools. Luckily the archives are very good and they found everything. They were able to send them to me. But it’s… there you go. Even if it’s just to do the file, it takes time. And once we’ve done the file, we send it off. And it still takes an average of 2 years, I think, to get an answer. And an appointment date for the interview with the sworn officer. This will be the right one. The third one. I’m not worried. But I must admit that I’ll be popping open the champagne when I get it. That’s for sure. And I’m buying a plane ticket to Cambodia. [laughs]
[i] And is that… You were talking about the right to vote?
[Yeah.
[i] Is it important for you too? Yeah, it’s important because we live in an era I mean, when I talk about politics, it’s… even geopolitics at a global level, it’s a bit scary when the… you see what’s going on in one of the world’s biggest powers… And even in France. I need to make my voice heard. I think it also ties in with my… I’d say my cultural evolution, between Cambodian culture and French culture. I think it’s more than just a right, it’s a real duty to vote. It’s the only way to make your voice heard. And I need this right to vote so much that I [don’t] understand those who don’t make the effort, even if it’s just to vote blank. But for me, abstention is heresy. After that, it’s my opinion. But… Yeah, it’s important. I think that… especially as… Indirectly, my family lived through a dictatorship, with… putsches… Finally, and sincerely today, I don’t think Cambodia is a real Republic, well, a real democracy. Well, that’s my personal opinion. [I don’t want to get shot either when I go back [laughs]… but… No, I think there are still things to be done in my country of origin, and… and the right to vote is really the basis. It’s a fundamental duty as a citizen to say what you think and show what you want.
[So that frustrates you…
[Yeah.
[i] … not to be able to vote?
[r] Yeah, clearly. Clearly because I’ve become really interested in politics and in following the presidential elections, well since Sarkozy. Before that, either I wasn’t interested or I was too young, I think. But since Sarkozy, then we’ve had Hollande, well Sarkozy twice. Then Hollande, and now Macron. I’ve followed every presidential election very closely. We’ve had debate evenings with friends, watching the debates together. Because it affects our daily lives and… And finally, in my group of friends and even in my family today, I’m the only one who doesn’t have the right to vote. And I’m outraged and almost annoyed when I hear someone close to me say that ‘Anyway, I wouldn’t go and vote because there’s no point’. I find that such a crazy… way of thinking that… I almost want to say, ‘Give me your paper, I’ll go instead! But then… Yeah, I’m a bit frustrated, I think… I’ll vote for everything. Municipal elections, general elections… presidential elections, everything. When I’ve got the right to vote. I think it’s important. It’s important for everyday life, in the town where you live, in the country where you live and for help with everything, well… I [don’t] want us to become the future United States, I mean. That scares me a bit today. And if I can say on a piece of paper that I [don’t] agree, that’s fine with me.
[i] So you follow the news regularly?
[r] Yeah, yeah… It’s important. I’m not a big fan of all the tensions in the world either. I mean, I keep myself informed. But, yes, yes, on the big news… As a person, as a citizen, I think it’s important to know. For my general knowledge too, quite simply. And… And politically, of course… I mean… when you see what’s going on in the United States, when you see North Korea… Well, Syria, well… Well, it’s… Just… I mean, Russia is mind-boggling… Well… there are lots of things beyond… this… these… these leaders… Sometimes, I get the impression that in some countries, it’s still the Stone Age. Anyway… today I’m living my homosexuality to the full in Paris. I’m lucky to live in Paris. But when I see that we… what’s happening in Russia, what’s happening, what’s happening very far away… In Chechnya, even worse. It’s… It’s disgusting that such a rich, powerful country should have so much freedom, in a way, from the UN and other world bodies. And that a country like France or the United States doesn’t blockade a dictatorship any more, after all. Let’s not kid ourselves, this is one of them.
[i] And to return to your childhood. You said earlier that it was a happy childhood?
[r] Yeah. Yeah, completely. A happy childhood, because it was also a very family one. You shouldn’t… Very family-oriented, with my mother, my aunt. My cousins, so my aunt’s daughters, my mother’s full sister, if I can put it that way, and not her half-sisters and half-brothers, she has… she has lots of half-sisters and half-brothers. But only one full sister. We’re real… well, she’s like my sisters. My cousins are like my sisters. I grew up with them. My cousin’s son is my nephew, not my grand-cousin. My cousin’s niece is my niece, not my second cousin. And she’s… It’s this… It’s this simple joy, I’d say, because we… well, we all… weren’t from a wealthy family either. My mother was a factory worker and still is. My step-father was a factory worker, and still is, or at least he’s retired now, but it wasn’t a rich family. We also lived in council housing, particularly in Aulnay-sous-Bois. After that… as second-generation immigrants, second-generation immigrants and refugees, we’re also lucky… we’ve been able to build our lives in a certain way, thanks to our parents, but also thanks to ourselves. As for me, even though I thank my mother a thousand times over for everything she’s given me in terms of my studies, sport, culture and so on, I’m proud of what I am. I’m proud of what I’ve become too, well… I [am not] today, I [am not] a CEO either, but… I think I’ve moved up, I’d say in… in the social pyramid, in inverted commas, even though I don’t like that word at all. Also, thanks to my efforts, I’ve done a lot of studying. I [only] owe my grades to… I’m the one who… who got these marks. My mother worked, so she didn’t have the time to be there to help us. And on top of that, she doesn’t speak completely… correct French. So we didn’t have any help at home with our studies. And my brother and I are where we are, thanks to us too. And… I think that this childhood in council housing, 93, life as a working-class family, I’m glad I lived it because… I know where I come from. I don’t forget where I come from. And I’m happy to have lived… After that it wasn’t poverty either, we weren’t homeless either. But we weren’t a well-off family either. Yeah. It was… it’s really counting the euros… at the end of the month. So… Yeah… that’s why my mother too, I think she’s happy with… what we’ve become. Because today we’re not in need. We’ve each got our own flat, we’ve got a job, we’re fulfilled. And that’s the most important thing.
[i] And you didn’t suffer because of your origins when you were growing up?
[r] Suffered, no. After that, I’d say, there were always… Earlier, I said there was no racism in the 93. No, but there are always little words… It’s not necessarily said in a nasty way. And I really didn’t take it that way because… Between us, we… I mean, my black mates, I used to take the piss out of them too because of their origins, but it was more a way of teasing each other with a certain amount of respect, clearly. Because we [didn’t] cross the line. And we didn’t do it with just anybody. It was really between mates. We didn’t do it with strangers. But it was… yes, the Chinese, it was always the Chinese, or the Asian, the ‘Tchong’… That’s it. Today, a stranger who says that to me will get a right straight away, that’s for sure. But after that, I don’t mind if it comes from friends. You have to take a step back, I know where I come from. I’m Asian, that’s for sure. In fact, I’m not Chi… well, yes, I’m Chinese as well, because my father is basically of Chinese origin. He’s Cambodian of Chinese origin. So… if it’s done in jest, I don’t mind. After that, there are… it’s everywhere… I’ve been lucky enough not to have to suffer from this type of… racism.
[i] Do you think you’re fairly at peace with your origins?
[r] Yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah, completely. I think that… I think the fact that I distanced myself from it at a certain point in my life did me good. Whether it was my origins or my family, it also helped me to build myself as a French-Cambodian. Parisian-Cambodian, I’d almost say. Because I really do see myself as a true Parisian, with all the good and bad sides. And at the same time, I’m also fully aware of all my origins, and I still have this respect for elders, and… respect for memory, that sort of thing. It’s something that’s ingrained in me, and that I could never… well, that I could never deny, clearly. Even if I tried, I couldn’t. And… And, it’s… afterwards I [don’t] know if it’s specific to my family. But, this… this evolution in this second generation of refugees is fairly homogeneous, in the sense that today, when I see all my cousins, brothers and sisters, they are only with Europeans. They’re only with Europeans. I have lots of… sorry nephews, they’re all of mixed race. My nieces are of mixed race. And we love this mix of cultures. And I think that by also keeping, by giving them a Cambodian first name and a Cambodian middle name, it also keeps this root, which the family holds dear, and my mother clearly holds dear. After that, we hope to be able to keep this… this culture that forged us for future generations. Whether we’ll manage that, I don’t know. It’s… it’s a bit of a fear, isn’t it? It’s a bit of a fear of my mother’s, and I think that even us, as the second generation, it’s a bit of a fear because subconsciously, it can happen to us to lose… to lose our roots, yeah.
[i] And what do you do, precisely to… to keep that?
[r] I’m thinking of my grandmother and my aunt, in fact. Firstly, because they’ve left us. And two, because for me they represent, in addition to my mother, really my three Cambodian pillars. My three maternal and Cambodian pillars. What’s more, my aunt was a Cambodian ballet mistress, in classical Khmer dance, at the BCK. And for years, I remember, I used to accompany her during training sessions. I’d see them with their headdresses, their silk outfits. And I thought it was magnificent. And for me, that’s also the Khmer origin, dance takes up an enormous amount of… place in… in Khmer culture. Ballet is a passion in my family. My cousin did it for a long time. She’s also… she’s tattooed the whole apsara on her back, which I think is beautiful. And speaking of tattoos, my brother has also tattooed ‘Ta Prohm’ here. I’m going to tattoo myself with jasmine flowers, which clearly represent the country I come from because it’s the flower used for weddings, for all festivities. And even funerals. For me, in any case, it’s the flower that represents Cambodia. Little things like that help me on a daily basis to… to [not] forget where I come from. The jasmine is really important to me, I wanted something Cambodian. My other project is to write the names of my nephew and niece in Cambodian. It’s… it’s silly, but for me it’s important to have a link with my roots. With my mother, my aunt, my grandmother, and therefore my roots behind them. And then, Buddhism, sometimes I still pray at night while I’m sleeping. Because my grandmother taught me and my brother to pray morning and night. It was more like a punishment for us because it was forced. Especially as we didn’t know the meaning of all the prayers. But, we… so I still know the prayers by heart today, and I still pray from time to time in the evening, yeah. Thinking of both.
[i] So it’s more of an individual practice?
[r] Yes… yeah, clearly.
[i] Do you go to the pagoda?
[r] No, I go… it’s more individual, and I think that even my mother and my brother [aren’t] necessarily aware of… that I pray, or that I think so much of my grandmother and my aunt. After that, we go [to the pagoda] from time to time. But much less than when my grandmother was there because my grandmother lived at the pagoda. Easily three-quarters of the time. And we… and we went to see her a lot, so we’d go there from time to time. We’d say a little prayer or meditate. And it’s true that now we only go there for big events. Weddings or, unfortunately, funerals. And maybe for one of the big celebrations which is, well as I was saying, New Year’s Eve and the Feast of the Dead. Apart from that, no, we’re not a family that… a Cambodian family that goes to the pagoda every week these days. Like some people do, which is great, isn’t it? But I think it’s also my mother’s wish. I was saying earlier that she was afraid we wouldn’t fit in when we were little. And in a way she was also, perhaps unconsciously, distancing herself from that. Of course, we follow in our wake, and I don’t feel the need to go to the pagoda more often.
[i] Was his fear of you being integrated stronger than the fear of losing the link with the culture?
[r] Sometimes I think so. Even though she’s very attached to Cambodian culture. And she doesn’t deny it at all. And… deep down, she’ll always be Cambodian even if she’s French today. I think she really had, yeah, this fear of arriving in a country she [didn’t] know anything about… She already spoke French because she gave French lessons in Cambodia. But not in a completely fluent way. It’s another culture. It’s another religion too. Well, the main religion isn’t Buddhism. It’s another way of… of working, it’s another way of looking at life. So she was… yeah… afraid that we might be in this Cambodian microcosm where we stayed for the first few years of our lives, because there was the family, clearly. But beyond that, she never necessarily helped me learn Cambodian. And even when we were little, and we started speaking French, she wasn’t the kind of mother to say, ‘At home, you speak Cambodian, you don’t speak French’. We spoke Cambodian with my grandmother because we had to. But I think she would have loved it if my grandmother spoke French too. Except that she was lazy. [laughs]
[i] She didn’t speak French?
[r] She spoke a few words. A few words, she understood more than she spoke, but… No, no, she spoke mostly Cambodian. And that bothered my mother a bit. Because, inevitably, when you don’t speak the language of… the… the host country, you know. But anyway.
[i] And did they tell you what it was like to live with the royal family… with the royal family in Cambodia?
[r] My grandmother and my aunt were much closer to the royal family than my mother. My mother has always… I wouldn’t say disowned, maybe that’s not the right word, but… She’s never been interested in the ‘royalty’ side of things, the obligations that go with it. It’s just… For example, when my mother goes to Cambodia, she never goes to the Royal Palace, she [doesn’t] go to see our cousins Bopha Devi in particular. My mother knows her, and she doesn’t go. But my aunt, it was an obligatory stop. She slept there, even from time to time. She had her own driver. My mother is the more rural side, in a way, of the siblings. When she goes, she prefers to go to the peasant family than to the side… I [couldn’t] tell you why. Maybe because in some way she thinks that… this ‘royalty’ and ‘principality’ and politics and all that…, that’s what caused all the unhappiness in the country. And all the losses it has suffered, I think… there’s a link. Afterwards, today… We say to her, ‘Do you come from the royal family?’ She goes, ‘Yes, but I don’t give a damn’. She… she pushes him away a bit. She pushes him away a bit. After that, life… life in Cambodia, she told us mostly about running away. Between Phnom Penh… at least, that’s what I remember. The escape and what she went through. The fact that they almost… They almost… got caught by Thai militia in the woods, well it was… It was quite traumatic, I think, for her, because she had a baby in her tummy. She had another one in her arm. And they didn’t necessarily have the water they wanted. I was more affected by that and her different stages in the Battambang refugee camps etc. than her daily life when she was young in Cambodia. Here I’m finding photos, we found photos of her when she was young. That’s not why she’s going to… she’s going to… dwell on it. It remains rather vague. Because, on top of that, she’s the last of the family, and even if she was young, she might not necessarily have lived through it. Because, in any case, the last one in our family is the one who has to stay at home, and… she’s the one who had to look after my [grand]mother and… That’s who… I’d say my aunt had more freedom than my mother. My grandmother always lived with my mother and me, and never with my aunt, for example. Yeah, it’s all pretty vague and she doesn’t talk about it much at all. But, yeah, because she made her life in Cambodia, and she doesn’t deny it, but it’s a page that’s been turned. Now she’s making a life for herself in France, although I think she’ll go back to France when she retires. Because now she goes back almost once a year, during the summer holidays. And… after that, she has other plans. Today, she’s bought some land and ideally wants to set up a bed and breakfast. To have a small local business. Because life in France is much more expensive than in Cambodia. And it’s clear that over there, she’ll be able to live more… comfortably, so to speak.
[i] So she wants to settle there permanently?
[r] Yeah, I think so. I think, yeah or do, six months – six months, because she’s got her grandchildren here who she adores, and who she’ll want to see grow up. But I think she’ll want to settle down. In any case, I mean, she’ll want to go there for longer when she retires. In a few years’ time, yeah. I’ll have a pied-à-terre when I get my French nationality. [laughs]
[i] And how do you see the future?
[r] Well, me in France, to be honest. Paris, again this year. Ideally, I’ll continue doing what I’m doing and what I love, in the company I’m in at the moment. I’ve developed quite a bit as a salesman and I’m delighted about that. I’m waiting to see how I’m going to cope with the separation from my mother. If she really decides to move to Cambodia, it’s going to be weird. And, clearly, if she does go to Cambodia, I’ll need the nationality to be able to visit her as often as possible. After that, ideally not far from my brother. Even if I go to the provinces, it will still be in the same country. Nowadays, with transport, you can get to the big cities very quickly. Because I absolutely want to see my little ones grow up, my two nephews. I have a niece who is in Cambodia, but I [only] see her very rarely, unfortunately. And I’m always accompanied by my friends and family. And Cambodia, yeah. I’d love to go to Cambodia. Ideally, if I could go back there every year, that would be great. Because I know it’s a wonderful country, from the photos I’ve seen and the feedback I’ve had. Doing Cambodia from top to bottom, definitely. Thailand, too, because I was born in Thailand, I’m not allowed to go back to Thailand either. So no Cambodia, no Thailand for me. And… Thailand looks like… it’s a great country. So I’d like to go there too. Future travels normally. [laughs]
[i] Have you been to other countries in South-East Asia?
[r] No. No, I haven’t. It’s true that I’ve… I’ve travelled mainly in Europe. I’ve been to England, Belgium, Spain, and that’s about it. I haven’t had the opportunity to travel further afield. For financial reasons and also because of opportunities, quite simply. I have this need, too, yeah, to… Latin America, for example, attracts me enormously because of its culture. Because, because I grew up surrounded by Uruguayans too. And… I speak Spanish, it’s the second language I learnt at university. And it’s so… it seems so opposite to my Cambodian and Asian culture that yeah, I absolutely want to do Latin America. The United States, of course. Canada, well… Yeah, if I could live the second half of my life travelling, I would. So I’ve only done London, Belgium and Spain.
[i] But does it make you dream to see all these countries?
[r] Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It makes me dream to do a flight of more than an hour. [It makes me dream of… of meeting… Well, what you see on TV [vision], in a way and… To meet locals, almost ideally. One of my greatest fantasies, I think, would be to do a backpack, well… With a rucksack and… Do several Latin American countries, and even just Eastern Europe. That’s it, backpacking, staying in guesthouses or… being in… Really immerse yourself in the local people’s daily lives, and see how they differ from France. To see the difference from what I know of Cambodia. And that’s how you get richer, I think. And… I don’t know, I don’t know if it’s because I’m, I’m part of a migrant population, that gave me this taste. But in any case, I’ve wasted too much time on papers. Because I’m a refugee and the fact that I can’t travel as I wish, that as soon as I have my nationality, clearly, I think that… One of my passions will be travelling, because I’ll be investing money and time.
[i] Are you planning to travel alone or with friends?
[The… Alone, I’d have a bit of trouble. I have to admit, seeing myself really travelling alone in backpack mode. I’d have a bit of trouble, yeah. More with friends or family, yeah. Or my current partner, we absolutely want to do Cambodia. Well, he’ll normally be involved in the travel plans. Because there are, there are lots of aunts there to see, lots of cousins. I’m going there, all I have to pay for is the plane ticket. I’ve got my cousin who lives there… and I know it’s not worth anything there, so I’m going to see… I’m a bit scared of seeing the… inverted commas the dark side of the country with… Poverty, let’s not kid ourselves. The hygiene, the lack of hygiene, in some places. And child prostitution scares me. I don’t know how I’ll react. I know that it’s developing more and more. Then there was Thailand, and that’s common knowledge. And I know that in Cambodia, it’s developing more and more and it’s the kind of thing that could… yeah, put me… Not disgust me with the country, that might be too much. But it could give me a bad impression of the country. We’ll see.
[i] How do you imagine the emotions you’ll have when you go back there?
[I’ve convinced myself that I won’t cry. [Even to see my father. My father, I [don’t] think I’ll cry. I think I’ll be touched because I’ll finally see him, but I really don’t have any connection… Yeah, almost sentimental. It’s… I’m really talking about biological father, eh. It’s horrible to say, but it’s… I think that’s the reality. After that, I think I’ll be much more overwhelmed with emotion in front of the Angkor temple. Because I’ve seen so many photos of it. I’ve seen so much in documentaries, that… the majesty and the colossal amount of architectural work… And it’s enormous what they’ve done. I think that yeah, the Angkor temple, the first time I see it, I’m going to be… I’m going to be shaking. And I think I’m even going to be moved, if only to see children… running around barefoot. This is the kind of image that we inevitably get, from documents, from photos… There’s a lot of talk about orphanages in Cambodia too. It’s all… All… all these things. Yeah, I think I’m going to cry after all. [I’ll try… I’ll try not to. But I know I’ll… I’ll break. And… and that… it’s going to be… I’m going to have a hard time coming back to France, I think. I’m already thinking about this kind of… things. That’s why I think I’ll be going back several times.
[i] So you’re looking forward to it?
[Yeah, I’m really looking forward to it. I’m really looking forward to it. The only thing that’s holding me up is naturalisation. As I was saying earlier, really, the… the best thing that can happen is for them to accept that I can go there as a refugee. And not to lose this refugee status, because whatever we say, even if… I was saying earlier that the administrative difficulties are real as a refugee. I think it’s worse if you don’t have refugee status. I think it’s even more complicated because you have to contact your country of origin for certain papers, which is not the case. I depend on OFPRA. There’s only one in Paris, but it’s pretty well organised. They’re… they’ve really improved in terms of organisation. But, yeah, if I didn’t have to become French to travel. I [don’t] think I would. If I didn’t have to become French to vote, I [don’t] think I would. I’d stay Cambodian. Macron has to hear me! [laughs]
[i] We’ve come to the end of the interview, do you have anything to add?
[r] No… I’m delighted with this study. I’m delighted to be part of it, because I think it’s important. And I think it’s important to leave a trace. Of… of these different migratory flows and… Of… especially today and what we’re going through with all the wars and people complaining about… migrants from Italy, from this or that country. We mustn’t forget that… We mustn’t forget solidarity, I think that this policy of stateless people or refugees is based on nothing else. And that one day, it could happen to anyone. And just because you’re a refugee doesn’t mean that… you can’t succeed in life. Just because you’re a migrant doesn’t mean you can’t succeed in life. I think we see examples of that every day. And… I think I’m one of those examples too. Apart from that, thank you! [laughs] Thank you for asking me.
[i] Thank you very much!