SU_P_02

[i] Hello!
[r] Hello!
[i] Do you have an object that is really close to your heart that you would like to show us?
[r] I don’t have an object other than this camera, this work of art that my little sister brought me from Chad. This object on which you can see the map of Chad, which represents my country, which reminds me a little of Chad and at the same time, it is the country, so it is a bit of nostalgia for the country. That’s it, but I don’t have another object as such. This is the object I’m presenting to you, the map of Chad. It reminds me of my country, it reminds me of all the years I spent in exile far from home.
[i] OK, can you introduce yourself to us?
[a] My name is [name], I’ve been here for a while now. I’m currently working in a secondary school in Paris.
[i] OK. Where are you originally from?
[a] I’m originally from Chad. My parents are from Moïssala, in the Moyen-Chari region in southern Chad.
[i] Were you born there?
[r] I was born in the capital N’Djamena, well, I was born in Fort-Lamy, which is now N’Djamena. So I am a Lamy-Fortain and not a Ndjamenois. But anyway, today those who were born later, maybe they don’t know this story anymore, but I am a Lamy-Fortain.
[i] Can you tell us a little bit about the history of Fort-Lamy, in a nutshell?
Fort-Lamy is in fact named in memory of Major Lamy, who led the operations to conquer this region of the country, which at the time was under the control of Rabah, who was, I don’t know whether to call him a resistance fighter or a slave trader, but he was in fact both. Lamy was the head of the troops that fought and shot Rabah in Kousséri, a Cameroonian town on the border with N’Djaména, the capital of Chad. So the name Fort-Lamy is given in memory of this commander Lamy.
[i] Was he a French commander?
[r] Yes, he was a French commander! He was a French commander, that’s all there is to it!
[i] Can you tell me when you were born?
[r] I was born in 1965 in Fort-Lamy. The Fort-Lamy maternity hospital at the time was run by French midwives and doctors. Today, the maternity hospital is now entirely under national management.
[i] Okay. And under what circumstances were you born?
[a] I can’t remember the circumstances. I know that my mother told me that I was born in the early hours of the morning, at 2 o’clock in the morning. That’s all I know, but apart from that, I don’t have any other anecdotes, nothing in particular that stands out about my birth.
[i] Are you the oldest in the family?
[r] No, I am my father and mother’s third child but my mother’s first boy. Before me, my mother had two daughters: [name] who has now passed away and [name] who is currently a refugee in Burkina Faso. After me, there is my little sister [name]. So, my mother had four children, three daughters and a son. I am my mother’s only boy, that’s it.
[i] Did you live in Chad for a while?
[r] I lived in Chad until I was thirty, before coming to France.
[i] OK, can you tell us a bit about that time?
[r] They are moments that are engraved in my mind because they were good times for me. I was with my father, my mother, my sisters, and then when my father took another wife and had other children, I had brothers and sisters. I have been to my parents’ homeland, the far south of Chad, so I know Moïssala, Doubadené, Sateignan and Dilingala very well. I know all these regions and all these places. So I know a bit about Chad.
[i] Are your father and mother from the same region, the same village?
[r] Yes, my father and my mother are both from Moïssala, both Mbayes. The Mbayes are the community to which my parents belong. This Mbaye community belongs to the larger Sara community, which makes up more than 40% of the Chadian population. In demographic terms, the Sara are the majority in Chad, ahead of the Arabs.
[i] In which region of Chad are they?
[a] It’s southern Chad. The Sara start from Tandjilé, going towards southern Chad. So there’s the Moyen-Chari region, the eastern Logone region and the western Logone region, then part of Tandjilé. All these regions I’ve just mentioned are populated by the Sara, so the Mbayes are part of this Sara people, that’s all.
[i] Okay. You studied in Chad.
[r] I studied in Chad until I got my baccalaureate, then I studied law in Niger, and in France I trained as a special needs teacher.
[i] What was life like in Chad in general?
[r] Life before the events for us who were born in the 60s and 70s, life was good for us, we were carefree. Life was good until the tragic events of 1979 broke out. After these events, life became very difficult for those of our parents who were civil servants, who depended on the civil service. The civil service didn’t pay, so life became very hard. We barely had one meal a day… We barely had one meal a day, so we made do with that, we went to school, we came back. If we ate at midday, we couldn’t eat in the evening, if we didn’t eat at midday, we ate in the evening. So we had one meal a day.
[i] All right. OK! Do you still have family in Chad?
[r] Yes, I have my mother who is still alive. My father has passed away but my mother is still alive. I have my sisters, I have my little sister [name] who is in N’Djaména at the moment, as is my mother, I have my little brothers who are also in N’Djaména, I have my big sister who is in Burkina Faso. I also have a son who is in N’Djaména.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your sisters, about your family in general… what did mum and dad do?
[r] My mother is a nurse, the kind they used to call a matron-midwife. My mother started working in the 60s. I think she worked until 2001, then she retired. My father was a driver. He was a lorry driver. He started out working at the town hall, on the roads in Fort-Lamy, then he worked for the NSKN, a company… I’d say it was regional, because at the time the NSKN was based in Chad, in the Central African Republic and I think in West African countries too. My father was a driver there, then after my father worked for the WFP before retiring.
[i] What is the WFP?
[r] The World Food Programme.
[i] And your two sisters?
[r] My two sisters: my older sister [name] is a refugee in Burkina Faso after the events of February 2008 in N’Djaména. My younger sister [name] is married. She was an executive secretary for a few years and then she lost her job. Now she is looking for a new job, which she hasn’t found yet, but otherwise she is married. There you go, she’s with her husband.
[i] So, please can you tell me when you arrived in France?
[r] I arrived in France… For the first time, I arrived in France in ‘98 to follow the World Cup, then after two months in France I went back to N’Djaména. I continued on to the Central African Republic to look for a place of enrolment. I spent six months in Bangui, in the Central African Republic. I didn’t get the registration I was looking for and I went back to N’Djaména. I stayed there for two months and then I went back to France in ‘99. Since then, I’ve been here, I’m still here, I haven’t moved at all. From time to time, I go on holiday to N’Djaména when it’s possible.
[i] So under what circumstances did you arrive?
[a] I was invited by a friend who later became my wife. So the first time, it was this friend who invited me, then I came back in ‘99, we were going to get married. Unfortunately my story, my home didn’t last long. A year later, we separated and since then I’ve been here, since I work in the Paris region, I’ve been here.
[i] How long have you been in France or the Ile-de-France region?
[r] Since I arrived in France in 1999, I have only lived in the Ile-de-France region. I lived in Bagneux in the department 92, then I lived in the 12th arrondissement of Paris, then the 20th arrondissement. I spent a year in the 12th arrondissement, and two and a half years, I think, in the 20th at the Porte des Lilas. Yes, two and a half years in the 20th arrondissement at the Porte des Lilas, then I spent two and a half years in Colombes, still in the 92nd, then I came back to Paris in the 14th where I spent almost ten years, near Didot, not far from Montparnasse. I stayed there for a long time and now I live in Montmagny in the 95. That’s a bit about my journey in the Paris region.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your stay in France?
[r] My stay in France in general, what do we do? We work, we go out in the morning, we go to work and come back in the evening. For us who are single, you go to work, you come back, you are at home, you only have the TV as a companion. Well, from time to time when we have to meet up with the Chadian community, well, we meet up. From time to time, parents and other compatriots, we meet up either here at my place or elsewhere for our political and other discussions. That’s life in the Paris region.
[i] What did you expect when you came to France?
[r] I don’t really know if I had any particular expectations when I came to France, but it was about building a life and starting a family. And then well there you go, working until one day I decide to go home, but I didn’t have any particular plans, I didn’t have any particular expectations other than starting a home, starting a family, taking care of my family until it’s time to go back… I can go back. Unfortunately things aren’t going as I hoped, that’s it. I’m here for the moment.
[i] What sort of environment do you live in now?
[r] It’s no different to the environment in which practically everyone else lives. I live in rented accommodation. I pay my rent every month, whether I’m in Paris, Colombes or now Montmagny, I’m always renting. Wherever I live, I’m often quite far from other Chadian compatriots. This means that to see each other, we have to plan things, which is not the case when we were in Chad. You want to go and see a relative or a friend, you get up, you go. You arrive at the house, if they are there, so much the better, you chat, you share whatever there is to share, and you go back. If he’s not there, well you come back and then the next time you meet up, you’ll say to him, but I went by the house last time but you weren’t there so I had to turn back. Here everything is organised, you have to call a week in advance to say, can we meet up this weekend? What’s your programme? What time can we meet? There you go, everything is organised, which is not the case where we come from. It’s not our way of life, this way of living.
[i] Did you study in France? Any training?
[a] Yes, I studied in France. I trained as a special needs teacher at the Catholic University of Paris. The Catholic Institute of Paris is in the 6th arrondissement of Paris. I studied special needs education at this university for three years.
[i] Can you tell me about these studies? What do they consist of?
Well, it’s a course in special needs education that leads to a job in the social sector. The role of special needs educator involves working either with the socially disadvantaged or with people with disabilities. The training we receive enables us to work on projects to support the socially disadvantaged. We support them in a specific, personalised project. That means that we set up the project that is important to them with them. For some, it may be a search for housing, for others it may be a search for work. For others, for the refugees, it will be to support them in their efforts to obtain the papers to live and reside legally in France. That’s the social aspect! For others, it will be to support them, to guide them in the management of their financial resources because there are families who tend to spend without taking into account what their resources are. In the case of support, we draw up the budget, we set up the monthly budget with them and we support them in this direction. So that’s the social aspect. The disability side is that for the physically disabled, i.e. those with mobility problems, we set up functional rehabilitation to help them regain mobility, to regain this mobility so that they can use their limbs that had problems. For those who have no hope, it is a question of helping them, despite their handicap, to be able to live properly without being too handicapped by this handicap. So we help them, we set up a project that allows them to overcome their handicap despite this. So what can it be? It can be either using prostheses, or using crutches, or using wheelchairs. So all these are programmes that we set up with them and support them in this direction. It can be intellectual disability, which can be severe, moderate or mild, and in this sense it means setting up a project with them that allows them to overcome their disability and be able to live in society without being excluded. So we create an environment, we create the conditions for people to flourish despite the disability they live with. So that’s a bit of what special needs teachers do, and it requires three years’ training after high school. There are schools and universities that train people for this job. So that’s the training I did, being in France.
[i] Did you work or do you work now?
[r] Yes, I worked as a special needs teacher until 2016. Since November 2016, I have been supporting children in difficulty in secondary schools. So I do what is called educational support. I provide academic support and reframing support for children who are unable to stay focused in class. I support them in class, so there are actually two of us adults working with one or more pupils in a classroom. So we step in when they are having difficulties with a subject or a particular exercise. Instead of a single teacher looking after all the pupils, and at the same time looking after one or more pupils who are having much more difficulty than the others, who have trouble grasping things because they do not understand at the same pace as the others. Those of us who are involved take care of them to give the main teacher time to look after those who find it easy to progress at a normal pace. So we take the others a little longer, give them a little more detailed explanations and special support compared to the other pupils in the class. So that’s what we do. Others need to be accompanied by an adult who helps them concentrate, and so that’s all I’ve been doing for two years now, in a collège and in a lycée.
[i] Do you work in different establishments?
[r] I have worked in two secondary schools and one college. I worked in a secondary school called Lycée Guimard in the 10th arrondissement of Paris, and in another secondary school, but these are vocational secondary schools, in another secondary school called Edmond Rostand in the 18th arrondissement of Paris. I work in a college with the pupils. For two years, I supported a pupil from 5th to 4th year and this year, I am supporting a pupil in 6th year who has just started secondary school. Otherwise, in high school, these are pupils who are destined for vocational training, so I support them in this direction because, among these pupils in these high schools, many come from … They are new arrivals, pupils who have come from elsewhere, from Africa, from Asia, and who have not had the education, let’s say the normal curriculum of a pupil who has attended primary school, secondary school and sixth form and who have difficulties. So these pupils need a little more time to understand the exercises they are given. And we are there to support them, to help them to be able to do the exercises, to explain them better because the main teacher who is there does not have the time necessary to be able to follow all these pupils who have difficulty in understanding the exercises in record time. So we are there to explain with a lot of… slowness, with a lot of detail to his students exercises so that they can grasp and be able to solve the problems that are submitted to them. So that’s it.
[i] Did you encounter any difficulties during your various work placements?
[r] Of course! The difficulties I encounter are much more with secondary school pupils, they are natives of France. They don’t have the same conception of things as children who come from Africa or Asia. Children who are born in Africa or Asia and come to France have plans and goals. They know what they want, they want to succeed in life. For them, it is important that they invest in their education, get qualifications and training, and get vocational qualifications that will enable them to enter the labour market. They know what they want. They know what they want, and they know that the environment we create for them is not necessarily what they have in their own country. This is not the case for children born in France who, despite all the measures we put in place to help them succeed, are not aware of this, because they were born in a country where they have everything, they think that it might be like that everywhere else in the world, and they are not aware that pupils in other countries do not have a tenth of what we make available to them for their success. So suddenly, these pupils are more difficult to supervise because sometimes they taunt you, sometimes they confront you outright, they disrespect you. They are not aware that you are helping them for their own good, for their own success. They think you are there to bother them, you are there to prevent them from developing. For that reason, they give you a hard time. They don’t follow the instructions given by the teacher. When you try to take time with them to explain the lessons and the exercises in detail so that these pupils can progress at the same pace as the others, it means nothing to them. For them, it’s not important and even when you call them to attention by telling them that it’s for your future, they say, ‘I don’t care’. Do you think that you, with… with this behaviour, do you think you will manage to get qualifications so that you can work? ‘I don’t care, even if I don’t have a qualification, I’ll know what I’m going to do.’ But hey, these are kids who, despite what they say, don’t know what they’re going to do. But they’re not aware because they think life is easy. It’s a shame because these kids, if we don’t make an effort, are kids who could one day end up as delinquents, robbing stores or committing shoplifting. That’s it, that’s what we have to avoid and that’s why the government has set up a support system to make sure that these pupils are helped so that they don’t end up becoming delinquents who attack people. Those are the difficulties I face.
[i] Can you tell me where these pupils come from? Do you have any idea?
[r] Well, yes, yes, yes! In fact, as I was saying earlier, in vocational colleges there are very few… the students we work with, there are very few native French speakers, even if there are a few, there are very few. Most of them are young people from Africa and Asia. They don’t cause any problems because they know why they are there. They know why they left their country to come to France, and they have goals to achieve. These are to do a course leading to a qualification, to leave with their diploma, to find a job, to work to fulfil themselves and to be able to help their parents who have stayed in their country of origin. So with these students, we don’t have a problem as such. The ones that cause me problems most often are those who are native to France, that is to say they are French, even if some of them are of African or Asian origin, they are French, they were born in France, they have French nationality. These children are not… they are not aware of the provisions available to them. For children who I would say… I would describe as French by birth, in quotation marks, who are covered by these provisions, it’s a bit complicated. It’s for reasons that perhaps have to do with the family environment or maybe something else, I don’t know what it is… The problem has to do with the medical or psychological domain, we don’t know. They’re children who don’t make the task of accompanying them easy. They’re children who are of French origin but who have particular difficulties. They are either French children of African, Asian or South American origin, and they have difficulties of various kinds, which may be psychological or family-related, and as a result they lag behind the other pupils and need support, special assistance from one or more adults who are with them and accompany them a little more regularly. While a pupil is given a maths exercise, he doesn’t need someone next to him, he does it and gives the answer to the teachers. The others need an adult next to them who, after the teacher’s explanation, explains it to them a second, third and fourth time and, if necessary, does the exercises with them to help them succeed. It’s with these pupils that we have a bit of difficulty, but well… we still do our best so that they can succeed and move up to the next class.
[i] Are there many of them?
[r] There aren’t always many of them. In a class, there may be one or two, three or four of these pupils at most, because if there are too many in a class, it becomes unmanageable. So their number is limited because, in addition to the teacher who comes to teach the subject, there also has to be an adult who supports them in these subjects in a sustained way. So there aren’t many of them, but they need to be there, so that they aren’t excluded from the education system, so that they aren’t marginalised. They are obliged to have this support. The schools where we are very happy are usually located in priority education zones, ZEPs.
[i] Apart from these pupils, do you have any particular difficulties with the administration?
[r] No, no, no! The environment is very good, we get on well.
[i] Or colleagues?
[r] We get on well with colleagues. Everything is going well, everything is going well.
[i] All right. So can you tell me if the work you do is related to the training you received?
[r] The social support for the pupils I support is the special needs education training I did, because in our special needs education training, we also do school support. So I, who had a literary education, work with the pupils in subjects such as French and history-geography. I can also help with less complicated science subjects such as biology and geology, but I can’t help with maths at a very advanced level. I can still help and assist sixth and fifth year pupils with their maths. But from the fourth year onwards, it starts to be difficult, even if I can still sometimes understand and explain things to them, but it starts to be a bit difficult. But I don’t allow myself to help pupils in the second cycle of secondary school with their maths, because I already get lost there. I can’t. So for subjects such as maths and physics, when a student is having difficulty, I ask the teacher who teaches the subject so as not to mislead the student. So I ask the teacher in charge of the course to give the necessary clarification to the students who are having difficulty. On the other hand, for subjects such as French and history/geography, which are my areas of expertise, well, I don’t need to ask the teachers in charge of the course. And besides, my colleagues often ask me for help because they are overwhelmed, so when there are several students asking questions at the same time, they refer some of them to me. ‘Listen, ask [name] because [name] can help you with such and such a subject and say [name], can you …?’ So, when it’s French or history/geography, I step in and give them the clarification, answer their questions, tell them what they need to do for those subjects. In natural sciences, or what is known here as SVT, I work under the supervision of the teacher in charge of the course. So that’s a bit of an overview of how things work.
[i] Do you also meet the parents of the pupils?
[r] I meet the parents of the pupils for whom I am responsible, the pupils whom I supervise and support in their school career. The parents need to know who is supporting their children, so I meet with their parents. I don’t meet with the parents of other pupils who don’t need support or guidance. I don’t have to deal with them, I have no relationship with them.
[i] What do you talk about during these meetings?
[r] We talk a bit about how their children are getting on. Are things going well? Are their children following the instructions? Is there anything going on? So we ask them and they ask us. When we arrive at school in the morning and the child opens his or her notebook and has not done the homework from the day before, we try to find out why. When the notebooks are not well kept, we ask the pupil the question, ‘Do your parents read your homework?’ If so, we try to find out from the parents why the school books are not well kept, there are lots of crossings out in the notebook, the notebooks are torn, do you know about this? Have you seen your son’s or daughter’s notebook? Because a parent who follows their child’s schooling will immediately be called to account because their child has a lot of crossings out in their notebook, and they will make comments to their child, try to ask their child to make a little more effort by keeping their school books in good order, by making an effort. The parent will try to find out if their child has done the exercises and homework that they have been given. So for these things, when they haven’t been done, we call the parents in. And they also come to see us to find out if… if the child is progressing well, because they also want reassurance on their side, to find out if their child has a chance to progress and get results. So there you go, the parents and we support each other.
[i] Are relations always very good with the parents, without difficulties? Is there mutual understanding?
[r] There are some parents who… who establish fairly easy collaborations, other parents who are demanding as soon as they arrive, why didn’t my child understand this lesson? Why did my child get this mark? Even though my child deserves better and we try to talk to them, we try to ask them if they are really aware of their children’s level. Have they discussed it with their child, and we try to make them aware of their child’s disability. So sometimes it goes well with the parents, sometimes it’s not easy, but we try to find common ground for the good of the child.
[i] Tell me, outside of your workplace, what is your daily life like? Can you tell us about your life outside of work?
[r] Well, my daily life is not much, as I said, it’s Paris! It’s the underground, work and sleep, that’s all! I leave in the morning, you have to run to catch your train and get to work on time. We finish work, come home, have dinner and then we have to rest so we’re fresh for the next day, ready to go back to work, and so on. Some weekends I can go out and meet relatives, people from my country, friends, here in the Paris region, but there’s nothing special. Not much else to say, really, about that.
[i] Do you have family in France?
[r] I have cousins, I have friends. I have acquaintances. So there you have it, I have cousins. I have uncles too.
[i] What are your hobbies, your activities? Are you a member of any organisations?
[r] I don’t have many hobbies. It’s been a while since I’ve been doing much sport, like I did a while ago, so there you go. I am a member of an association of which I was one of the founding members. It’s an association for the promotion of the Mbaye culture, which is the culture of the people to which I belong. Well, for a while I was on the board of directors, but I’m no longer on it. That’s it, apart from that I follow what’s going on in Chad, what’s happening politically and socially in Chad, I follow it a bit.
[i] Cultural activities, going to the cinema, to the theatre?
[r] Cultural activities, I must say that…
[i] To the cinema, to the theatre?
[r] To the cinema, to the theatre, I can’t remember going to the theatre by myself since I’ve been in France. I took the children when I worked as a special needs teacher in the homes, I took children to the theatre, I took children bowling, to do sport. So we went out with the teenagers. To the cinema, I sometimes go to the cinema with fellow countrymen. I have never been to the cinema on my own because for me, cinema is something to be shared. So, I find it hard to imagine going to the cinema on my own, sitting there in silence, and then going home. So when I have a friend or a compatriot or a relative who comes to see me or asks me, ‘Listen, there’s this film on, can we go and see it? Then I go. So there you go. My favourite pastime is much more the cinema. If I have company, we go, but I don’t go alone. And then, other pastimes… from time to time, maybe I can go out for a stroll in the gardens. I rarely visit Parisian monuments, although there’s no shortage of them. Paris is full of monuments, but rarely. Besides, if I know the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre and others, it’s because compatriots passing through Paris on their way to the United States or returning from the United States to Chad stop and ask me, ‘[name], I want to discover Paris.’ So now, at the moment, I go out and we go out with them and I accompany them to discover the Parisian sites. And that’s how I myself discovered the Parisian sites and other monuments, because I never take the initiative to go and discover Paris myself like that, it happens to me very rarely. It’s the parents, compatriots and friends who want to see Paris when they’re passing through, and as I know Paris, I know where you can visit these monuments, as soon as I’m told that… I show them the way, I accompany them and that way I also get to enjoy it and that’s that.
[i] What do these monuments that you visit represent for you? Do you have any idea? Eiffel Tower? Arc de Triomphe?
[r] Eiffel Tower for us who are French-speaking, coming from a country that was a former French colony, that was a French-speaking country, the Eiffel Tower is something. Everyone knows the Eiffel Tower. So, well, in our countries, if you tell someone that you came to Paris and you didn’t see the Eiffel Tower, it’s like you’ve never been to France, you’ve never seen France. To prove that you have seen France, you have to see the Eiffel Tower. You have to show an image, one of your images next to the Eiffel Tower, at the foot of the Eiffel Tower, but you can’t say that I came to France, well I came to Paris and I didn’t see the Eiffel Tower. It’s not possible! It’s inconceivable! So anyway, it’s a monument with a history, with a reputation. So the Eiffel Tower is for all French speakers and besides French speakers, today when you go to the Eiffel Tower, you see American, Japanese and Chinese tourists, and even those from neighbouring countries, English, Germans, tourists… The Eiffel Tower is something that is recognised all over the world. Well, the Eiffel Tower is a monument that is renowned, that is well established, so there you go. The Louvre is… the biggest museum in the world, they say. So the Louvre is also renowned. The Arc de Triomphe, that’s the place… The Arc de Triomphe, Bastille, République, these are famous squares in Paris. Demonstrations, people gather there. Trocadero too, demonstrations most of the time, i.e. the meeting starts or ends at the Bastille, République or Trocadéro. So they are also well-known monuments, famous monuments, that’s it. I don’t visit the Sacré-Cœur or Notre-Dame very often. Since I was in Paris in ‘98, when I arrived for the first time, I have visited the Sainte-Chapelle, but since then I have not returned to the Sainte-Chapelle. I passed by, I had taken legal action against my former employer when I was dismissed at the industrial tribunal and I had a trial, there was an appeal so then we went to the Court of Paris, so the Sainte-Chapelle being next to the Court, I passed by there but I only visited the Sainte-Chapelle once. Notre-Dame de Paris, I don’t think I’ve ever visited like that, Notre-Dame de Paris. I go behind it, in front of it, I stop in Place Notre-Dame, but I don’t think I’ve ever visited Notre-Dame as such. So much for the monuments. Another famous Paris monument that I like, or when friends are visiting and ask me to show them Paris, I take them there too. It’s the Grande Arche de la Défense, in the 92nd arrondissement. So when you’re in the Place de la Défense, you’re under the Grande Arche de la Défense, you see the Arc de Triomphe in front of you, it’s magnificent. So those are the monuments and other famous historical and tourist sites in Paris, or from time to time when I accompany people, we take tours there.
[i] Have you also ever gone to concerts or other cultural events?
[r] I always go to concerts as an educator, accompanying children and young people. We take them to concerts because they ask us to, because a musician they admire is performing, and when they behave well or bring home good results, as a reward, to encourage them, we offer them concert tickets, so we take them. But I’ve never been to a concert myself.
[i] In terms of your community or other cultural activities?
[r] In terms of my community, back in the day with some of my little brothers, when we had time, our first years in Paris, we loved the music festival. We would tour Paris until 4 in the morning. We shared a few drinks, we let our hair down and then we went home, but since then I don’t know what happened, but we just sort of drifted apart. Back then, we would get together more regularly for those kinds of events… We would meet up regularly for the music festival, we would get together and let our hair down. Either at the beginning of summer, we get together, have picnics, catch up, talk about this and that. We share moments together and then I don’t know what happened, but that group just sort of dispersed, and now the only way we keep in touch is by phone. It’s a shame, I would have liked us to pick up where we left off, but I don’t know if it’s possible to rebuild that, because at the time we had just arrived, it was our first years in Paris. We brought our spirit of… from home, because at the time when we were in N’Djaména, at my little Augustin’s place, we would get together in the evening and debate, we would remake the world. We were remaking the world, so there you go, we had revolutionary ideas, we would bring up all the political subjects, historical debate, the economy, sport. We discussed all sorts of subjects, we took a lot of time and sometimes people passing in the street might have thought we were crazy. But hey, we were remaking the world at the time, we were young so we were remaking the world. We split up one by one, but we all quickly found each other in France. So I think that the spirit we had back then in N’Djamena followed us, so we reproduced what we did in N’Djamena. So we would meet up, you know, regularly for picnics, to go out for the Fête de la Musique. In the summer, we’d go for walks, stuff like that… we liked meeting up again and continuing our political debates, our intellectual debates, we liked it but then… for practically now… practically now maybe… ten or fifteen years we’ve been dispersing like that. No reason, but that’s how it is, we don’t see each other any more, except to say hello, whatever. Others have left. A fellow countryman [name] who was in the group has now gone to Canada. So that’s about my outings. So now I’ve become much more of a homebody.
[i] Okay. Can you tell me about your relationship with the different cities you’ve lived in? Are you involved in any way in the city, cities or community in France?
[i] I am not very involved in the cities. Most of the time, my involvement in the municipalities is always related to my work as a special needs teacher. I am less involved in the life of the municipalities where I have lived because, well, I find that my role as a special needs teacher already allows me to be sufficiently involved in the city. So afterwards, when I arrive, maybe subconsciously I tell myself that I’ve given enough. So I take time to rest, to do something else, so there you go. I’m less involved in the social and cultural life of the towns where I lived.
[i] Can you tell me if there were any major moments, key events that made an impression on you when you arrived in France. If so, which ones?
[r] The key moments, well I would say that the key moments were perhaps the 1998 World Cup and Euro 2000. We were big supporters of the French team, so those are moments that left a mark on us. For some time now, I’ve been much more concerned about the situation in my country, which is not what I hope it will be. So, the situation in my country and in the Central African Republic, which is my neighbouring country, concerns me much more, so there you go.
[i] Can you tell me what your perception of the city of Paris is?
[r] Paris is beautiful! Paris is a city of culture, it’s said to be the city of lights. So, Paris is beautiful, but you shouldn’t be alone in Paris. If you’re alone in Paris, the loneliness will kill you in Paris. Especially for us who come from elsewhere and who grew up in an environment that provided relationships. You are surrounded by cousins, uncles, aunts, friends. You don’t need to make plans to come and see a cousin, a relative, a friend. You improvise everything, but it’s the good life. You live, but really live with a light heart, a really light and free spirit. They are often improvised moments, but they are very intense. We don’t necessarily have these things, at least for me, maybe others know and have known and have managed to create these things again, to recreate these things here again. But for some time now, I have been living quite withdrawn. I am in such solitude, and as I said earlier in the introduction, apart from a few visits from parents and friends, the only company I have is the TV. Work, sleep, eat, repeat. I go out, I’m at school or at work, in fact, I come back, I have the TV, I have a few moments to read, that’s it. So Paris, if you live with a wife, with your children or if you live with a relative or a friend with whom you are constantly together, it takes you out of loneliness, but in my case, I am in such solitude that I really want to leave Paris, to go back to Africa to find those moments of conviviality and sharing elsewhere, in Africa.
[i] Is it nostalgia?
[r] A lot of nostalgia, a lot of nostalgia, a lot of… I have many moments of escape or being physically, materially here in France, I find myself reliving moments that I spent either in Chad, or for the few holidays that I spent either in Cameroon, or Congo Brazzaville, or in the Central African Republic, or in Niger where I studied, I relive these moments which remain very important moments for me. So there you go! It’s a bit complicated in Paris. It’s difficult being an immigrant in Paris. It’s not a life when you’re alone, but hey, maybe it’s me who hasn’t managed to create an environment, a setting in which to find myself with lots of people, stuff. Maybe it’s a personal case. This is not the case for all the other immigrants, other Chadians in France, but that’s just how it is for me.
[i] In general, can you tell me how you see social issues in France?
[r] Social issues in France: it must be said that it is a rich country, that’s for sure, but there is a lot of poverty. For me, who has received social training, who works in the social sector, who rubs shoulders with people in difficulty, there is a lot of poverty in France, in Paris. And it’s a paradox: you rub shoulders with wealth, which is insolent, and then right next to it, there is unbelievable poverty. You think to yourself, how is that possible? I worked as a… I first did an internship at the hospital in Nanterre… I forget the name. In my second year, I did an internship and then I worked. There’s the Nanterre hospital, which already takes in people, but… it was the first time I really came face to face with poverty, in this Nanterre hospital centre. It’s called Cash Nanterre, Cash: Centre d’accueil des soins hospitaliers (hospital care reception centre). Cash, that’s what it means. At Cash Nanterre, I saw poverty as if I were in Africa because Cash takes in refugees who are in the CADA and the homeless, who also have accommodation for a while at Cash and some of them are also treated because there is an alcohol addiction centre at Cash Nanterre. That’s where I came across such extreme poverty that it’s just not possible, and it’s still surprising for a country as industrialised or as rich as France. So, when it comes to social services, some people get by and there is a lot of help, a lot of help. Some people miss out because they don’t know that this help exists. Some people deliberately refuse this assistance. Some people also fight to get this assistance but do not necessarily get it because they have not received proper support, people who refer them, who really direct them to the right organisations so that they can benefit from this assistance and who find themselves on the margins of society and above all on the margins of the opulence in which the French live. So there you are, it depends if you know the ropes, if you know the organisations to turn to, you can get by with the assistance even if you don’t have much money. But if you don’t know or if you’re not well guided, you can be alongside people who live in opulence, but live in the blackest, most total misery. So it depends, the social in Paris.
[i] What about health issues then?
[r] It must be said that the health insurance system in France is one of the most efficient in the world. Health insurance in France is excellent, but the fact remains that to benefit from this health insurance, you have to be a regular in France. If you are not a regular in France and you are undocumented, it is complicated to get healthcare in France because healthcare is very, very expensive in France. Those who can prove that they have been present on French territory for three months can put together a file to obtain state medical assistance and get healthcare. Many undocumented migrants and the homeless live in such precariousness and idleness that their health leaves something to be desired.
[i] Another question was about your status. What status do you have in France at the moment?
[r] As for me, I have simply always been a resident. I am a resident, I have the ten-year card. It is true that I am opposed to the regime in Chad but, since I arrived in France, I got married straight away. I got the ten-year card straight away, I have already renewed it, and soon I will renew my ten-year card for a third time. So I’m a resident, I’m a resident, I’m not a refugee. Well, because resident or refugee, we have the same cards, so I don’t know what one or the other has more than the other, so I didn’t see the need to change my status. So my status is simply that of a Chadian resident in France.
[i] Do you intend to apply for French nationality?
[r] I have already applied for it, except that I have been waiting for four years, I don’t think I will get it, so I think…
[i] Is there a reason? Or reasons?
[r] Well, I think it’s because of my political involvement. I think that’s it, because when you apply for naturalisation, you are interviewed at the Paris police headquarters, you provide the documents that are requested. They look at your file, they investigate you and then after six months, you get an answer. I applied four years ago. I was received at the Paris police headquarters, after the intelligence services also received me. And when I was received by the DCRI, I was made to understand that… oh no, they’re there to protect me, blah blah blah… They are also going to speed up my application so that I can get my naturalisation quickly because I have also submitted the file for my son, who is still a minor, and I intend to bring him here, but the opposite of what I was told has happened, because I have been trying to find out what is going on for four years. I send emails, I get no replies. I call, there’s no one, no one on the phone and I don’t know if my file still exists somewhere. So anyway, I made this request, it was much more to bring my child to France so that he could benefit from the whole French structure and follow a good school curriculum in France. But I think I’ll end up bringing him over some other way. Maybe I’ll just do a family reunion without trying to get naturalisation. French nationality wouldn’t have helped me, it wouldn’t have given me much apart from the fact that you’re a citizen of a country, you can go for 20 or 30 years and come back, you’re still a citizen of that country. It will save me from having to provide documents to renew my residence permit. But apart from that, I don’t know what French nationality would have given me that my residence permit didn’t, because it’s true, I can’t work in the French civil service, that’s for sure. A French nationality might have allowed me to travel freely to countries where the French don’t need a visa, such as the United States, Canada and some other countries. Maybe that, the ease of travelling. But apart from that, if I apply for a job, whether I’m French or a resident, as long as I’m legally entitled to, I apply like any other French person and then, well, if my profile is good, I’m hired, if my profile is not good, I’m not hired, they hire someone else. There you go!
[i] Have you applied for asylum in relation to your commitments?
[r] No, I haven’t applied for asylum and I won’t.
[i] Are you still in touch with your country of origin?
[r] Yes, yes, since my mother, my sisters and my brothers are still there, so I have connections with the country. I’m fighting for things to change, so that I can go back too… because… I have to go back to Chad one of these days, and settle there again. I don’t want to, I have no intention of retiring in France. I’m going to go back soon.
[i] Is that one of your intentions?
[r] Yes, it’s really something that is close to my heart, day and night. Now, I’m starting to think about my return plan, back to Chad. We’ve been here, we’ve already discovered France, we’ve seen lots of other countries nearby. With our resident card, we can go in and out anywhere. I have nothing left to discover, so I just have to go back home for my old age and that’s that.
[i] Can you tell me a little bit about the people you know in France, in general?
[r] The people I know in France are my cousins, a small, close circle. We maintain family ties. We meet up, we catch up on the country, on our friends. The friends with whom we are involved in political and politico-military struggle, we meet up, we discuss our projects, what we must do for things to change where we live. So, that’s a bit… that’s a bit what my social circle is like. I have a few… a few French friends, I am a Christian, a Protestant Christian, I have brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I have a very good relationship, with whom we keep in touch. Once a month, on a Saturday, we have a Bible study where we meet up and study the Bible. We pray, and then we spend some time together. That’s who I hang out with.
[i] Mr [name of interviewee], we have covered almost all the questions, so I wonder if there are any things we have omitted that you would like to add, or any comments.
[r] No, but I don’t think we’ve really covered everything, I don’t know. I think we’ve… we’ve covered everything, my life here in France, my plans and my expectations. I think we’ve covered everything, there’s nothing else that comes to mind.
[i] Is there a final word? How can we summarise all these exchanges? What can we take away from them?
[r] The final word is that at the moment, [name] has a very strong desire, a very strong desire to return to Chad, to be with his mother, to live the last moments that remain to be lived with his mother, and then to stop running in the Paris metro. Because I don’t get up at 6 in the morning with a spring in my step, and by 7 I have to be running on the metro. You can’t miss your metro or you’ll be late, you can’t miss your bus, no! I want this stress to end and I want to go back to Chad, take my time and do things like an Mbaye, a Chad. Not telling myself, yes, if I miss this metro, I’ll be late. No, no, I don’t want that anymore. I’m really fed up with Parisian life. I want to return to Chad calmly, but the political environment in Chad does not allow me to go back there at the moment. But as a believer, I believe that God will answer our prayers and that I will return to Chad. I pray to God that he will keep my mother for a while longer, that I will be able to go back to see her, that I will be able to share moments with her again, to see my brothers and sisters, my cousins and perhaps the parents and friends with whom we used to have fun in Chad, that we will meet again to… Now, it won’t be the world we’re going to build, but it will be now, living on memories, telling our stories, telling our children that we saw France and that we came back. That’s it! That’s it!
[i] Do you intend to write a book?
[r] I am, how should I put it… Although I am a literary man, I am currently finding it difficult to write. It’s true that when I start writing, I write very easily, yet I have a block, I find it difficult to sit down at a table, pick up a pencil, pick up a sheet of paper and start writing. Maybe, well, now with the new technology, maybe one day, as we are doing, I can maybe tell someone who will transcribe it but I have become very lazy, very idle when it comes to writing. A few years ago, I would have gladly done it but now it will be difficult. But hey, maybe with the new communication technologies, I might be able to do something. I don’t know yet.
[i] Thank you [name].
[r] It’s me.
[i] See you again very soon.
[r] Thank you,
[i] Thank you.
[r] See you soon!
[i] See you soon!