SU_A_39

[r] Hello, my name is [name]. I am from Palestine, from one city. The name of the city is Gaza.
[i] The city and the province are Gaza?
[r] Yes.
[i] Both?
[r] The province is Gaza and the city is Gaza. I live in Gaza.
[i] Can you say something more? I have been living in Gaza for 30 years. I came here in October 2013. I am a student to do my master’s degree. I graduated in 2016.
[i] OK, perfect.
[i] Is it possible to tell me about your first living memories you have? Do you know what means living memories?
[r] Gaza.
[i] The question is the first living memories. That means the earliest thing you can remember in life.
[r] What life?
[i] The earliest memory is, for example, I remember in the past. What’s the most that you can go in the past? Like memory when you were 4 years old or 6 or 8 or 10. The first that you have in your head that you remember. Or do you remember everything?
[r] I don’t have really special memories because when I was a child, most of the time I was at home. Because my father was really worried about me and he doesn’t want me to go out on the street. So I couldn’t have friends until 15 years old. Most of the time I was at home. And just I go to school from school to home. My father picked me up from the school. And I tried to fill my time with something that makes me interested like video games. So I became addicted, in fact, to video games because I couldn’t have a chance to have friends or go outside. To discover more about the life outside. Because in fact my father was worried that some bad friends may teach me some bad habits. Like smoking, like bad words. And my father was a teacher. So he was, he knows that how can friends affect children. Or when you became until 15 years old, you can easily be affected by the friends. So he wanted to be sure that we became good people. And we stay away from all the bad habits and bad people. And then he said also, if you want to have a friend, first of all, bring this friend to me. So I can speak with him. Then I will decide if you should have him as a friend or not.
[i] And do you think that it was a good way of educating you? Like your father did?
[r] I have lost… I mean, I wanted to do a lot of things in my life to discover when to go out with people. But… There was really some bad people can really teach you bad things. Or… I believe there are bad things outside. And it’s a hard way. It’s a hard way. But… I am very happy now. I don’t… I have never smoked a cigarette in my life. Because of that. I am happy that I didn’t know a lot of bad things or a lot of special things until I became 18 years old. I maybe don’t want to mention it. Like sometimes you will talk about things and like I don’t know anything about that thing. Because at this age or at this time of your age, I don’t think it’s good to know these things. And… It was really hard. This type of education. But it has some benefits.
[i] You maintained like a lot of innocence. You stayed long time innocent, no?
[r] That’s true. Your father want just you to be as best as you can. He want his children to be as best as he can. Because my father has lived… Lived a very harsh and hard life. My father when… During the 1948. When our original city was Jaffa or Japho. He was living with his father in that city. But during the war, they… lift the city by force. The whole city lift. And we moved to Gaza walking. But I was not born yet. So after that, my father worked in a refugee camp. It was a very bad environment and a very bad life at that moment. And then not only this. He wanted to study university when he grow up and he went to Egypt. And then another war happened when Israel took Sinai. And he was totally disconnected from his parents. And he couldn’t get any financial support from his parents. Because everything was blocked. He lived in the streets. He was working in the streets trying to find his living.
[i] In Egypt?
[r] In Egypt.
[i] In the parts of the Sinai desert where there was the war with Israel or other different parts?
[r] The Sinai was invasion with tanks. But he was in Cairo. He was not in Sinai, my father. So in the cities you see only bombing by planes. But in Sinai there was invasion with tanks. Military. So my father was in the city. It was most cases safe. Because at that time bombing people’s homes was not a culture like nowadays. Nowadays like bombing civilians, it’s something became very normal. In the past maybe they get bombed according to what I know. I don’t know much about how was the war. But as I remember that they bombed military bases. They bombed soldiers. But bombing cities, I don’t think that was part of the culture at that time. So he was in war safe. But the problem he couldn’t find his livings. How he can find food or collect money. So he decided to work in the street. And Egypt in fact is a very poor country until today. Like the city are in the bottom of the ground. Like very low salaries. And he saw a lot of things. Because when you go to the street. You mix with all types of people. And you learn a lot of things. And bad people always try to find homeless. Or try to find those people. In order to use them for their bad things. So after all this time my father. He learned a lot of things. And he didn’t want this happen to us. So he was maybe very worried about us. I understand him. I understand why he did that.
[i] And your mother she was also from Jaffa?
[r] My mother from a city called Beit Rim. This city is like north. Far from Jaffa. And my father meet my mother in Egypt. In the university. They meet each other in the university. He loved her. And after the war is finished. When they came back to Gaza again. My father wanted to meet my mother. And ask her for marriage. He went to her family. And he asked it. Because this is our culture. If you want to get married. First you meet the girl. You talk to her. And then to do things officially. We have to go to the parents. We have to speak with the parents. And this is part of our culture. Like in my city. When I want to get married. I tell my mother. My mother knows all the girls in the neighborhood. Because they visit each other. We have a very very social life. They bring food to each other. They visit each other. They know everything about the neighbors. The relatives. And for us as a boys. We don’t mix with girls. Like I lived. Until I had. I graduated from my bachelor in Gaza. I couldn’t have. I wasn’t with a girl at all. Because even the university we are separated. Boys alone and girls alone. And it’s not acceptable socially. That you have a girlfriend. We don’t have this culture in our city. To have a girlfriend. Only when you want to get married. You make it official with parents. Start with parents. And then after that. You can. If you are engaged. You can go out together. You can speak. It depends how much you want. One month. Three months. Six months. One year. Two years. As soon as you think everything. You have talked about everything. You understand everything. Then after that. The boy go to his parents. And he says. I want this girl.
[i] When this happened with you father. He went to the family of your mother?
[r] Of course. That’s in the first meeting.
[i] What happened?
[r] They go to the parents. The parents they have experience. About types of people. They have more experience than me. And my mother know girls more than me. Of course. Because girls knows girls. More than what the boys knows the girls. So we try to get a help from their experience. And this experience is very important. And why we do that? Because we don’t want mistakes happen. And this is why we try to get advantage from the people who got the experience. So we don’t fall in the hole. That they fall in it. Or we don’t do the same mistake that they did. And sometimes people say. No it’s better you discover yourself. Like why we have to make the same mistake. Again and again and again to learn. If you trust your parents. And you believe in your parents. And you believe in the one who is teaching you. I just follow them. I listened to them. Because I know. You will not find any person in the world loves you. more than your parents. Ever. Wherever you go. Any place in the world. You will never find somebody loves you more than your parents. And they want you to be always the best. So, we listen to them. We obey them. And this is also part of our belief. Like we believe the heaven under the feet of the mother. This is part of our beliefs. So, we pay up our parents and we want to make them happy. But in the choice, we decide ourselves. After my parents went to the family of the girl and they talked to her and they know what type of people they are. They give you advices. They tell you this, this, this, this about this family. And we think this, for example. And then it’s up to you. If you reject, if you say no, maybe your parents get sad. But they can’t stop you. Everybody has the right to decide and choose what he wants. And then after that, my parents go one time. Three times. And the rest is me. And we go out together. We speak together. We discuss many things together. We don’t have any physical contact at all. So, the physical contact only comes after the acceptance. Like I talked to her for six months or seven months. I checked the compatibility. I checked her ideas. And some people, they see different ideas are okay. But for me, the similar ideas are important. Or similar beliefs are important. In order to avoid a conflict when you have children. Maybe many people noticed that many children got a lot of problems. Because they saw their parents are arguing or fighting with words. A hot argument with each other. And that affected the children so much. So, when I want to choose somebody who wants to stay with me. The rest of my life. I want to choose a kid who wants to stay with me all my life. I want to be sure that there will be no conflict happening in this home. At all.
[i] So, both your parents are high educated? They both study in university in Egypt?
[r] Yeah.
[i] What happened?
[r] My father has finished his bachelor degree. And he was so lucky. Because when the war started and he couldn’t find the money to go to university. The president of Egypt at that time, Jamal Abdel Nasser. In fact, he saved my father. He saved all Palestinians who stuck in Egypt. He said, all the Palestinians who couldn’t go back to their city. Or who couldn’t get the financial support from their parents. I am going to give them homes. I am going to give them money. So, he left my father in the university. In a student room. And he ate from the school. The school gave him three times food every day. And he succeeded to finish bachelor degree in Arabic. Then after that, my father went to find a job. It was really difficult in Egypt. It was about like 70 million in Egypt. And they don’t have petrol. Or they don’t have important things that they can feed all these people. My father was applying in many countries. He applied in Libya. And he was accepted. He went to Libya. My father. And he lived in Libya. And he worked. And they paid really good. And then after that, another political problem happened in Libya. And my father, one day, he found a special offer from Saudi Arabia. They look for Arabic teachers. Because it was at that time highly wanted Arabic teacher. And mathematics. My father couldn’t believe this. They accept him. He just filled the application. And he threw it in the post. And surprisingly, he said that I was accepted. Because Saudi Arabia pays more. And like going to the Gulf. For all Palestinians, it’s like a dream. Like for me, coming to Europe. Because in Gulf, they pay you good money. And they accepted him. Then my father moved to Saudi Arabia in the capital city, Riyadh.
[i] And in Riyadh, he…
[r] He start his work. He start his job, his work. He start to build his life. And his plan, his dream was to save as much as he can. So that we can finally have… Have our own home. Because… Just to have a home in Palestine. Because after you lose everything. In 1948, his grandfather, he lost everything. Living in a refugee camp is… Itself, it’s like awful life. To live in refugee camps. Very, very, very bad life. My father want his children not to see what he saw. That was his goal. He want us to live a good life. This is why we never forget that for him. He suffered a lot, my father. From Egypt, to Libya, to Saudi Arabia. And he lived all his life mostly as a stranger. That’s very difficult to live as a stranger. Unfortunately, even in… Arabic countries. We are the same Arabic countries. They always look to you as a foreigner. They always give you… Look to you as a second class. Even when they pay salary. They pay you much, much more less than the native people. And my father, he worked as an Arabic teacher. And I was born in Saudi Arabia. All of us were born in Saudi Arabia except my sister. My first sister, I’m the second one. Was born in Libya, my sister. And the rest of us, we all born in Saudi Arabia.
[i] Because your father met your mother in Egypt. And they went together to Libya, Saudi Arabia. Yes?
[r] Yeah. And then after that, my father started educating us how to be a good people, how to behave. He started teaching us in the school. And one day there was a problem in Saudi Arabia after a long time. It’s… there was no jobs for Saudis. Because most foreigners like us, we are very highly educated. Much more educated, in fact, than the people in Saudi Arabia. They don’t like studying in the school. They don’t like education. When I was in the class, we always in the top. We always get the highest mark. And they don’t want to read. They don’t want to study. So we took most of the jobs. And after a long time, the native people became very angry. Like, this is our country. And why? We don’t have good jobs. And they started a movement. We want to get the country back.
[i] In which year it was? It was in 1995. Around that time. And…
[i] You were how old?
[r] I was at that time… I guess 17, 16. Around this age. And Saudi Arabia started kicking the foreigners. Or exiling the foreigners from the schools, from hospitals. And replaced them with Saudis. At that time. Many foreigners, they finished their residence. And they told them, you go back to your country. You have worked enough. And it’s time for you to go back to your country. My father was really good in the school. And he was always getting excellent degree. And because they make a study for teachers and the level of teachers. My father always get excellent. So they didn’t want to finish his residence. They just moved him to another school in a village. And it was very, very far away. My father was very sad because… He was old. He was really old at that time. And he can’t go out with his car to that school. Two hours by car. Outside the city. And he was really sad because he said, after I served in this country for a long time. Finally, instead they make me relax. And they make my life easier. They just make it harder. And they moved me to our city. To our school from my home. So my father was waiting that something happen in Gaza. Politically. So things get better. And it was also agreement at that time. When Palestinians got… Not a country. We didn’t get a country. We get a Palestinian authority. Like we rule Gaza.
[i] In which year was this?
[r] In the 90s. 1994, 1993. In the 90s. And… My father, when he heard about this, he decided to go back to Gaza. He said, I don’t want to live this hard life. I lived as a stranger all my life. And it’s time for me to leave the rest of my life in Gaza. That was really like a turning point in our life. Why? In Gaza there was no much jobs. A city just came from big intifada. Destroyed city. Crushed city. Not independent. Started from zero. And we want, as children, we want to study university to get jobs. And that was a problem. Was a really big problem. Because we couldn’t find jobs. We couldn’t… There was also a lot of corruption. Because of the suffering. Whenever you find corruption. You find suffering. Corruption, I mean. It’s like when you want to get a job. In our city. You have to follow the organization that controls this institution. If you are not part of this institution. They don’t give you a job.
[i] We have to go a little bit back. Before we go ahead. So you were raised in Saudi Arabia. We in the West, we always hear about Saudi Arabia. That it’s very religious country. Difficult country. There is no freedom. How was it for you to raise in Saudi Arabia?
[r] When I was a child, as usual, I just go to the school. Boys don’t mix with girls. We don’t have… The same thing. You don’t have a girlfriend. You can’t have a girlfriend. Only marriage. If you want to leave. You do it formally. You get married. And… That’s the usual life. Like I lived in Gaza. Like we lived… Most of the time at home also. I couldn’t go outside. See much about what’s happening. But in Saudi Arabia. Since it’s a Muslim country. They don’t… Allow you, for example, to drink alcohol. But of course they smoke. Smoking is something like everybody smoke. A lot of people smoke there. But… The restriction… I haven’t noticed it on me. Because… I didn’t feel something influencing me. Just… I live my normal life. I go to the school. From school to home. When I want to have fun. I just stay at my home. I play video games. Because as I said in the beginning. My father wanted me to stay at home. So… I didn’t feel like there’s something… Really make my life harder. Personally. That’s me personally. I didn’t find something make my life harder. I live my life normally. No problems. And…
[i] When you went with the family. Back to Gaza. Or… Gaza is a part of what… Was it the land of the Palestinians? No? Yes?
[r] Yeah. Gaza.
[i] So… Were you happy that you could go… To your own country? For the Palestine people to live there? Or… No? Or your father… Yes? He was happy to go back to his roots? Or no?
[r] When I was in Saudi Arabia. I was watching… The Intifada. I was watching… Gaza. And sometimes we visit. When my father get a holiday in the summer. We take the plane. And we go to Gaza. But we couldn’t… We don’t go directly. We have to go to Cairo. And from Cairo. We take… A taxi or a bus to Gaza. Because there is no airport. When I went to Gaza. And… I feel this is my country. When I reached there. I kissed the ground. I put my face on the ground. And I kissed… And I was… Dreaming. I want to leave. I want to leave Saudi Arabia. I want to leave there. In Gaza. For some reason. I don’t know why. I just loved it. Loved it so much. I didn’t feel myself a stranger. When I was in the school. They always… We get bad treatment. From the native students. You are a foreigner. You are this. They always look to you. Finally. I didn’t have this feeling. Like I feel. This is my city. This is my country. And nobody now treating me badly. Finally, even my father feels very happy, during that visit only. And finally when we moved to Gaza, I was so happy, because first it was the first time of my freedom, because at that time I was 16 years old, and my father allowed me to do whatever I want. And in Gaza there is a sea, I love the sea so much. In Riyadh there is no sea, there is no river. So every time we go to Gaza, I want to go to the sea, I want to swim in the sea, it’s like a new experience in my life. In Saudi Arabia there is no sea at all there. I have to see something change, I go out from my home, I meet people, I play football in the street with my neighbors, I like this, I saw a new change in my life.
[i] So when you all went to live in Gaza, it was politically serious?
[r] Yes.
[i] And then after it changed, when it changed everything?
[r] The second Intifada. Everything turns upside down, because the Palestinian government started negotiating again in the UN about getting a country, and they want to get independence, we get Palestinian authority, and they promised us in the USA, in a conference with Bill Clinton, that there will be a country for Palestine in 2004, or even maybe earlier than that, I guess 2002, and that was like, this was an agreement, and our president checked the hands of the Israeli president, and it was a full agreement. And then after that, nothing happened, and Israel rejected. You will not get a country. And you remember at that time, when the Israeli president… Shimon Peres, he was making a big celebration, he’s from the left party, big celebration about he is going to give a country to Palestinians. Finally, a president accepted to give a country for Palestinians, and he made a big, big party at that time. What happened? The extreme right parties, they assassinated him in the middle of the party. The president is killed. Even he got a guard around him. And there was a big question. What happened? Listen, what the guard did, because they saw someone with a big gun, not even a small gun. A big gun. He came and he shoot him three times, and the guards didn’t do anything until he was shot and they arrested him. So some people, they say the guards didn’t want this happen also. And then after that, things get worse. They start second intifada, there was a resistance, and Israel start bombing Gaza again. Until after a long time, some Palestinians in Gaza, they lost hope of political solution. They said politics doesn’t work at all. If the situation was stable in Gaza and everybody has a food or social security, like when I came to Europe here, everybody is safe because of the social security. What I think is there is no social security. If you have no job, you go to the street. You suffer. You can’t go to the hospital, buy medication or if you have a surgery, you can’t pay the amount of money. Suffering with suffering, a lot of suffering and no solution. People want something. They want to do something different. We want to do something different that can make a change to stop this suffering. So the key word is suffering. It’s not ideas. When you suffer so much, you don’t think about wisdom anymore. So a new organization or a new political army, they start as an army like Fatih, like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. They started to believe that the only way to get our independence is by war. We have to fight. But you have to fight what? What do you have to fight? For us, their main idea, if we showed the world that we are dying for independence, maybe something could happen. We know we are not going to win the war. We just want to take the attention of the world. And they decide to go to war and they start, first of all, the Second Intifada was with the students, with the children. But the armies, they have only machine guns. And then they start developing themselves. They start going outside Gaza somewhere, getting some military education in other countries like Iran. So countries like this, they get education there. And they start making rockets. It’s handmade rockets. Very simple rockets. It’s not guided. You just launch a rocket, wherever it goes, it goes. Most of, I can say 90% of the rockets, they fall in the desert or they fall in empty places. It’s, I mean, it’s not even called a rocket. And very, very rarely it happens, like a rocket falls above a home. And even if it falls above a home, it doesn’t make a huge damage. It just makes a small damage. And the people who died, maybe the rocket fall in a street where there’s people. And that was like, like, like their luck was not good. They were not lucky at that time to be in that area. And then Israel, when these organizations start developing rockets, they start more aggressive. They start bombing. But it was not still a real war, like only assassination. They just see somebody with a car. They send helicopters, and they assassinate him. They kill him. But then after that, they develop themselves more. And they got rockets can go more than 20 kilometer, more than 40 kilometer. And Israel start to worry now because there is development in the military. And in 2008, when I was in the university in Gaza, studying my bachelor degree at the end of 2008, after many problems, shooting rockets, Israel get angry. They couldn’t stop it. It was Saturday. That day was Saturday, I remember. It was middle of the day, 12 p.m. I was at home. And suddenly, the sky was full of planes. You can’t even know how much plane because you hear the voice of the plane. It was F-16. And they all bombed it at the same time. So that was the biggest huge war happening in Gaza. They all bombed it at the same time. So the feeling like you hear the glasses of your home just shaking, the home itself is shaking because they have a new kind of missiles or rocket that can make vibration in the ground to reach so deep to some kind of shelters or some basement. And we go out above the home to see what’s going on in the roof. And we saw unbelievable picture, unspeakable picture. You saw like a hill everywhere. In the first 10 minutes, 600 Palestinians were killed. In the first 10 minutes. Why? Palestinians know the situation is getting critical. And they didn’t expect Israel is going to attack. They believed that they could do something like strike, big strike, kill some big leader. But they didn’t expect that Israel is going to do such kind of huge war or big war. And they didn’t even expect that they are going to strike on Saturday. Because in Jewish, Israel is a Jewish country, it’s forbidden to fight on Saturday. This is part of their belief, totally forbidden to fight Saturday. So, Israel itself broke the religion to make it a surprise and kill as much as they can. So, the president at that time said, the goal is to kill as much as we can. That’s the goal. And then after that, you hear the ambulances, you hear the hospital, you hear people shouting, you see a lot of homes were collapsed, the bombings were in homes, military bases and homes. And we just stayed at home, very afraid, worried about what’s going to happen. Because I live in an area with many people from Hamas. They are everywhere. And we were so afraid that a strike happened next to our home and we die because of that. All the shops closed. No electricity. Until today, we have only two hours electricity a day. We couldn’t have food. Most of the shops, as I said, closed. And I have to bring food for my family. I go out like 10 in the morning and I come back 10 in the evening. Why? I stay a long queue in one of the bread shops, waiting your turn until you get some bread. Hundreds of people are waiting in a long queue. And if you are lucky that you come back home with the bread.
[i] So in 2008 is another turning point, no? With the bombing?
[r] Yes.
[i] And also they closed Gaza or it was before like closed, difficult to go out?
[r] It was Gaza closed because Hamas was controlling the city.
[i] From before?
[r] Before.
[i] From the second Intifada maybe?
[r] Yes. Because after they lost hope of political solution. And the Palestinian Authority get a heavy pressure to stop Hamas. You have to stop Hamas. Palestinian Authority start arresting Hamas, torturing them. They torture them badly. They torture them, they arrest them because they said don’t launch rocket because it are just useless. It just make more trouble to us. I believe this. I understand that. It’s just like a desperate person suffering so much and he just exclude. He want to bring the attention of the world, he want to do something. But the president said the world is not going to do anything. The world is not somebody, someone who can do something and he doesn’t want to do. It’s something more complicated. The world in fact doesn’t decide, unfortunately. The one who decide is the one who got the veto. This is simply the world. If you are supported with someone who got a veto, Nobody ever can do anything to you. So that’s the world. This is why they lost hope of political solution because they said this is a jungle. A jungle, the one who got a veto is the lion of the jungle. If we go to, when we go to UN for voting and let’s say 130 countries says yes to country, to Palestine, and just one country of ones who got the veto says, said no, it means no. Just one. And then people start saying, OK, is this a democracy or this is a jungle? So then this organization start to believe we have to do something different. And they go to really get worse on us. It became worse and worse and worse on us. And they just know that it’s going to get worse. They just want to believe maybe we can move. Move somebody or move the Arabic countries to stop this suffering.
[i] And when your dream started to come to Europe, when you said I have to go away from Gaza?
[r] I start to think I want to leave Gaza in 2000. It was just, I stayed like four years and I believed after that moment, after I saw the situation.
[i] It was the second intifada?
[r] Yes. I wanted to say to leave Gaza because of two reasons. Reason number one, there is no life. There is no future. No future at all for you in this city. When I grew up in Saudi Arabia, they don’t believe in party, political parties. Saudi Arabia is just like king, one government. They teach us that parties are not good. They make problems with each other. They make the country weak. So I have never been in election all my life until today. So when I Gaza, I saw something different. I saw organizations. And I start to feel myself a stranger again. Why? Because the organization, if you are not one of their organization, they don’t look to you as a good. They don’t respect you. They don’t give you a job. I start to feel like I am not among my people again. Like, hey guys, I am a Palestinian like you. But you are not one of our organization. The second problem that what I wanted to leave Gaza. Is after a long time of suffering. I wanted to tell my father. Thank you very much. You worked very hard. To bring money for us. To make a home. To build a home. To feed us. It’s time for me to help you a little bit. Because in our country, the children live with their parents. Even if they are 30 years old. And I feel like I have to do something. I want to make my father relax. He became like 70 years old. It’s enough. I don’t want my father to spend on me the rest of my life. I tried to do anything. I worked in the street in Gaza. I was selling perfumes. Perfumes doesn’t bring a lot of money. But I just want to do something. And I get some money from that. I get some money. I start not taking money from my father. But unfortunately, this is not enough. To get independent. And rent an apartment. And get married. At all. I decide after that. I have to do something. Which country I wanted to go. Because it’s the easiest thing for me. It’s the country where I was born. Because if you were born in a country. In fact, they should give you nationality. But the system in Saudi Arabia. They don’t give nationality. Even if you are born. Even if you lived 20 years or even 50 years. They don’t give nationality. I went to Saudi Arabia. And I was begging them. Please. Give me residence. I just want to stay. I want to have a job. I want to get independent. They say sorry. They rejected. I came back to Gaza again. I went again and again. Three times I went to Saudi Arabia. And they said sorry. We don’t. They have like a problem. As I said in the beginning. They want to finish the overloaded foreigners in that country. Because many foreigners. From Egypt. From Sudan. Like a lot of foreigners. From Yemen. The people from Yemen. They just like. They moved all from Saudi Arabia. They went to Yemen. For some also political problems at the time. And. After I failed. In the last time. After I failed to get a residence in Saudi Arabia. I said. I want to do something unique. I start reading. What is the danger in the sea. Because Gaza we have a sea. I was start thinking. I should make a boat. Build a boat. Or buy a boat. Or anything. I can take a boat. From Gaza. And go to Europe. Buy a boat. From Gaza. This is like a crazy idea. For me. I don’t have. I don’t. I’m not experienced with navigation. Or. How to be a captain in a ship. Or something like that. I Just wanted to do something. It’s enough. And I said. If I died. At least I will not be a pressure on my father. Do you see. How much the suffering is to this level. But this. I made this as a plan B. If everything failed. All my tries failed to go to Europe. I will go through. This dangerous mission. I bought the device that you put it in your hand. That make the sharks away from you. If the boat fall. I bought something. You put it. You wear it on you to make you float. I bought. I don’t. We. I. We can’t buy oxygen. Not allowed. Because if you bought the oxygen tube. They will take it. They don’t allow it. When you go to Gaza. I bought all the things that I can buy. And I said. I’m going to do several tries to go to Europe. I tried first to go through Romania. Which is the only country. Most. The easiest way. People find smugglers. They pay them money. And they bring them as a tourist visa. And from Romania you can go wherever you want. I tried my best. But it’s so dangerous. Because simply he can take all your money and say to you goodbye.
[i] This was in 2000? How much. Nine? That I started two process at the same time. One process is very, very long process. Which is to come as a master, as a student visa. Because it takes a long time. I start the second one in 2012.
[i] 2012?
[r] Yeah.
[i] You try to go to Romania.
[r] Yeah.
[i] You went to Romania.
[r] No. I was looking for a smuggler. I pay him money, so he can bring me to Romania. And how to do that, we know some people in Gaza. They. Know. Some. People. And you, this is how from someone to someone to someone. He said: the smuggler 2000 dollar. I said: what is the guarantee? He said: I you couldn’t get the visa he would send you the money back. Are you sure? That’s what he said. I didn’t believe that. But because of I have no other choice, and life is adventure. I mean, I was risking all my life in the second plan, plan B. Going by ship. I’m not going to hesitate to risk a money. Because I worked with UN, as an English teacher. There was UNRWA, United Nations for Relief and Working Agency. They don’t give you a permanent job, they give you a help. After I graduated from the university, they give you as a help, as a job, because I am considered a refugee in Gaza. It’s not my city. The original city is Java. So I live in Gaza as a refugee. So they help the refugees a little help. It doesn’t consider as a help to make you independent and you start building in your life. So I saved all the money that I got from the UN to go to Europe. It cost a lot of money. Unfortunately, the smuggler was not good. He took the money and no visa. Many, many Palestinians from Gaza, they lost all the money from those smugglers. They take the money and they just don’t give you nothing. And then I start keep going on and my plan A, which is to go to Europe legally with a student. This I started in 2001. Why I start from a long time ago? Because going to Europe from Gaza, it’s a miracle. It’s like, it’s like they have put some kind of requirements like political level. They don’t say we don’t allow you to come. They just make it impossible to you. They make it impossible to you. They make it so difficult. So I start reading. Computer is my only friend. I have it. The only friend from when I was in Saudi Arabia, I have no computer, but I used to go with like computer games. But the computer, when I went to Gaza, I bought a computer and it became my only friend. Because it was the only window that can make me see the world.
[i] Do you have internet in Gaza?
[r] Yes, we have internet. It’s a bad internet, but it’s good. When I sit in my room, I always open Google Maps. And you know in Google Maps you can go in real life in the streets, and you can walk in the streets. I was watching the European cities, I was walking, like I was walking in the streets in Google Maps. Watching the streets, watching the beautiful places, watching the gardens. Just only like dreaming, living in a virtual life, hoping that I can make it. And I said to go to Europe, first I have to study English. I went to university, I finished English education. And also it’s very important to work in the UN, because they require that. If you want to be accepted in the university, you should have worked in an international institution. My university VUB, where I studied. You should have worked in an international institution. Why? Because they want to ask about you. They don’t trust the authority, the Palestinian Authority, they don’t trust anybody. They only want to know who you are before they bring you. So I worked with the UN, and they know me. They called them, they spoke with them. They said yes, we know [name], he was a teacher with us, he has a good man, he is OK. I bring a good manner at the station. And then after that, in fact to work with the UN is really really difficult. Because they put like a mark, a minimum mark. If you want to work with the UN, you should have minimum 75% from the last mark in the university. If you get less than 75%, you will not be allowed to work with the UN. And that was difficult because my department, English, was very difficult. For us, the Palestinians, to learn English was difficult. Especially, I came from Saudi Arabia, the English is really really bad. They don’t teach English, I mean the professional way, they teach like very simple, very very simple. And when I went to Gaza, it was really so difficult for me, but I made it. And I get more than 75% and I work with UN. I was saving this money for the future. My parents said to me, [name], it’s time to get married now. Because I became like 35 years old. And I said, if I got married, I will not be able to go to Europe. I just decide, what is my goal. I decided not at all do with money anything else. And even, like, this is just only two years and finish. Even marriage is very expensive because in our culture the man is responsible for spending everything. Why? They say, why the girls doesn’t work? In fact, there is a girls working, but to marry in Gaza… The man who should be the one who is working, because… the man who is the one who start the family. Like, it doesn’t happen like a girl comes to the boy and says, I am going to marry you. And it doesn’t happen, normally the man who is the one who comes to the girl. And the family of the girl don’t accept the man unless he got a home and he got salary. Otherwise, how you are going to spend on our daughter? How you are going to feed our daughter? They don’t accept you. And I said again, another problem why the man who should be the one working, because there is not much jobs. Very, very few jobs. So if we said it’s equal and the girl and the boy work together, that means society is going to disappear. Like there will be no grow-up in the society, in the people. They disappear because many guys work and they have salaries, they have money. But the money, why the guys want the money? It’s just for luxury, better life. But the man wants a job to start a family. That’s the difference between… So in our culture, the man is responsible for spending everything. Because he is the one who working. And I said I can’t. To my parents, sorry I can’t get married. I want to go to Europe. And that was even after the second huge war, 2012. After 2008, 9, that war finished, again the situation get worse and worse and worse and worse. They didn’t get better. And they go to start launching rockets again. Another war started, was a super huge war. And we saw the death in front of our eyes many times. I myself was exposed to death many times. I was two times almost dead. One of them, I was walking in the street and there was a building like about 20 meter or 25 meter away from me. And the building was struck by F-16, by strong rocket. I found myself on the ground. You hear of noise in your ears. You didn’t hear anything. Imagine the Phoenix like you hear nothing. You see smoke everywhere, gray smoke from the powder of the rocket. And you hear nothing. And you just like in a shock, you watch what’s happened. And then you saw that there was a strike in this building. Luckily, the strike was from behind to the front. Like it was not the opposite side. Because if it was in the the opposite side, towards me, the strike. Like, imagine the building is in front of you, and the strike was towards you. You are a dead person. All the stones will kill you. If it is not by fire, it will be by stone. But I was so lucky, the strike was from behind me. So the whole stones and the… comes in the other side. We just fall from the pressure. When you… if you want to feel the pressure of the rocket. That itself, like… unspokeable. Like, I can’t explain how is the pressure. Because when the rocket explodes, it makes a huge pressure. It can… this pressure can, in fact, kill you. Even if nothing touches you. But it depends, again, on the direction of the wind. It depends on the direction of the rocket. And I was lucky that time I didn’t die. And then, after that, after I start applying in many universities, online, again in the computer, we don’t have an embassy in Gaza. We have to do everything online. This is why the computer was the only friend for me. I applied offline in Denmark, in Holland, in Sweden, in Belgium, and mostly I wanted either Sweden or Belgium. Why? Because those countries are loved so much by Palestinians. Palestinians know that Belgium and Sweden help Palestinians many times. And Palestinians love Belgium so much and they love Sweden. Although we start hearing that in Sweden, a right party won in the election. And he starts stopping the emigration. He stopped the emigration. He doesn’t want more emigration. because of the right party won the election. And then we start later to hear that a right party also won in Belgium. And things get difficult and harder and harder. But at least we know that it’s the best European countries for us. I applied and I was waiting for the result from the university. After six months, I got a response from the university that I was accepted. They gave me the acceptance letter. The most difficult part is the embassy. The embassy also gives you a lot of documents, forms, you have to fill it. Open questions. Why do you want to come to Belgium? Why do you want this? Why do you want this? A lot of it, like an essay you have to write. A lot of paragraphs. I started filling all the forms and I waited for the answer. I bring the documents, very difficult documents. Like they want you to be clear from criminal. You are not a criminal, you didn’t have any crime, you didn’t commit any crime. And how to bring this paper? You have to bring it from the Palestinian Authority. But they don’t exist in Gaza. They are in Ramallah. So you have again to spend a lot of money by DHL. DHL is very expensive. DHL is like speed post or speed for… Because the normal post in Gaza, almost nobody could deal with it. It doesn’t work. I called my university. I told them, please. If you send the acceptance letter, don’t send it by normal post. Call me and I will sell myself the DHL to take it from you. So they make a first mistake. And they send it by normal post. It’s gone, forget it. You will never get it. You can wait for ages. I waited about like a long time. Four months. Nothing. I get nothing. I decided to ask them again, please. Can you make another acceptance letter? I will get it with DHL. They said okay. They made another acceptance letter. And I sent DHL and DHL bring it to me. And after I collected everything, papers, everything. The most important moment in my life. The result. I was every day checking online. You can check it online. You can go to like… They give you like a code. You put this code. And you see your process. Be handling. Be handling means like still in a process. Every day like before I open the website. I like close my eyes. And slowly, slowly start to see the first letter. The second letter. Like so scared. Because my plan B was like so scary. Going to through the sea. I don’t want this happens. Because most cases you die. But I said if I die, I die trying. I don’t want just to surrender. And just sit and say okay. I will just accept my destiny. No. I will change the destiny. My destiny. Because nobody knows what is your destiny. You have to do whatever it takes. To achieve what you want to do. You don’t surrender. And say this is destiny. Finally. One day I remember. It was in the 3 p.m. I got a phone call. I looked to my mobile. That was the Belgium embassy. Because I saved the phone number of the embassy. And they ask you. Give us your phone number. Because they give you the result. By phone. And the results come by phone. Before the website. So you see. When they give me even the result by phone. I checked the website. It said be handling. It was not even in the website. Announced. I see the embassy calling me for the first time. And I knew that something. This is the answer. Because usually it takes about. I don’t remember. 40 days. Something like that. They called me. My heart was beating so hard. This is the most important moment of my life. From 2001 until 2013. Waiting for this moment. Then. A woman. I don’t know what’s her name. She called me. And she told me. Are you [name]? I said yes. I am [name]. And she said. We have accepted you. I was like… Frozen. No feeling at that moment. Like. When you get a huge shock. Either positive or negative. I tried to control my emotion. In all I was exploding from inside. I just want to throw my phone and run to everybody, to my family, to my friends, and tell them that I was accepted. I controlled my emotions, I said thank you very much, I closed the phone, and I exploded after I closed the phone. My mother was in the bedroom, she was sleeping, my father was cleaning his teeth, and I came to them like crazy, shouting, they accepted me, they accepted me. My mother, when she saw me with this face, because in Gaza we always get bad news, she was scared with big open eyes and a red face like she thought somebody died. Because in Gaza we don’t hear good news, we don’t have good news, always we hear the bad news comes. She thought something bad happened, big big something bad happened. And my mother, they accepted me. My mother was frozen, my father was frozen, and my father said, no no no, don’t believe it. Did they ask you for money? They will just steal your money. My father believed what happened to me with the one who stole my money. They said no, just they are lying to you, they ask you for money, they will ask you for money, don’t believe them, don’t believe them. My father, this is the embassy. He said, how do you know this is the embassy? I said, my father, this is the phone number, look. He said, how do you know this is the phone number? I said, from the internet. My father has no skills at all in the computer, zero. He came from all, you know, the older people, like they don’t know how to open a computer, they don’t know how to turn on the computer even, they don’t know how to use a computer. My father, what is internet? My father always, when he saw me, he sees me that I am playing or using the computer, he believes that I am playing games, he gets angry from me. He says, [name], stop playing, study. I said, my father, this is a computer, I am not playing. He said, no, you are playing, this is like, they don’t know what is computer. And I said, this is from the internet, from the embassy. He said, I don’t believe the internet. I said, OK, my passport was in the embassy. So the embassy told me, send DHL to take it from the embassy. I said, OK, wait, I will get my passport and I will show it to you myself. Everybody was silent, you know, nobody expected. Something is happening now, something turning point in our life. I took, after three, four days, I get the passport and I saw the visa. This visa was like a miracle. My father saw it, he didn’t even believe. He said, how do you be sure this is not a fake? I said, my father, oh my God, how can I convince him? Because simply, nobody believed anything that could happen. Even when I went to the tourist shop to buy a ticket, I said, I want to buy a ticket. He said, where do you want to buy a ticket? I said, I want to buy a ticket to Brussels. He looked at me and he said to me, who made this fake visa for you? Can you please tell me, because also I’m looking for somebody to make a fake visa for me. I told him, man, this is not a fake visa, this is a passport. He said, oh yeah, this is not a fake visa? Because we know some smugglers, they make a fake visa. I said, this is a real visa. He said, oh, okay, okay, just give it to me, I will know now. Because they put the number on the computer, they check it. And he put it, he put the number, and he was frozen again. Because somebody just came and said, I need a ticket to Brussels. It’s a dream of every Palestinian, just Gaza is hell. Have you seen Titanic? Titanic is like a ship sink in the sea, and the people are just fighting for life. Imagine if you saw somebody having something, floating on with somebody, he doesn’t care, he will just come and jump on you, even if he killed you. That’s simply Gaza is Titanic. Everybody wants something to hang with it. Like you just in the sea, you are going to die in the sea, and finally you find a wood or something to float with it. It’s something like the life come back to your body again. And that’s what happened to me. A dead person came back to life again. The man was looking to me and he said to me, man, what did you have done in your life so that God loves you so much like that? Please teach me. I told him, you need 13 years process. He said, okay, I think I’m not going to do it. Because Palestinians, they just the only way they do smugglers. You don’t have this patience, university, and really, really long life and cost money to study university. If you ask, you know that during the process, one small requirement, if you didn’t achieve it, the whole project failed. Like if I couldn’t get 75%, I would not be able to work with UN, UNRWA, and then the university will not accept me. Just one small mistake happened and all your project crashed. And it happened. Many Palestinians, better than me, more education, more intelligent than me, they applied for student visa and they got rejected. Like you have like 5% or less chance.
[i] It’s like lottery.
[r] Like lottery. When you win it, you see how people feel. Like it’s a turning point in their life. And then after that, the most difficult part comes. How can I leave Gaza? The borders are closed. And Egypt opened the borders one, three days a month, and they allow only two or three buses. You can’t go by car because there is no airport. It was destroyed in the war. I have to go to Cairo by bus, and the bus is totally guarded with military. So they have to take you from the Egyptian borders to Cairo, and from Cairo take the plane. How can I go to there? That was a big challenge to me. I went to apply. You have to take a queue, a long queue, more than 20,000 Palestinians waiting in a long queue to get a number, just to get a number. You get your number, then every day I move from Gaza, because I live in the city itself, to the Egyptian border, 80 km, go 80 km back. Every day you go and you just wait from 6 am to 6 pm. And the sun was like hell. You have just to wait your turn. It’s not about 10, you find the turn more like thousands, but when you are lucky, they announce, like you are getting closer, and you just get ready, because we don’t know how many buses. Maximum 3. And every bus, maximum say 50. So 150 person pass, and you have thousands in front of you. But when they announce my name, they say [name], get ready, because you get a chance to pass, I just start go to the borders. That happens for 3 weeks, continuously. I go to the borders, and you know, suddenly Egypt can say the borders are open, the borders are closed, they can just close any moment. I went to the borders, and every day go back to Gaza. Why? Sorry, they just didn’t open the borders today. Why? Suddenly an explosion happened in Sinai, because there is a war between the ex-president, rebellions, and the army. So always there is explosions. When there is explosions, or there is a shooting, they close immediately the borders. It was so much suffering for me, because I went many times, and I came back, and it cost me money. Thanks for UNURWA, that I work in UNURWA, because I take money, and that money saved me to pay a lot of money in many places, for the legal process. And after that, I was luckily one day in the bus, and we entered the Egyptian borders. We are in the Egyptian side.
[i] How do you do it? Every day you could go away. How do you say goodbye to your family in this way?
[r] The first time, the first time, when I left, and they announced my name, I saw my name in the internet, that [name], you have a chance to pass the borders. From inside me, I said, I will never, ever, ever come back to Gaza again. Ever. My parents don’t know that. They didn’t even, in fact, my father still doesn’t believe this is a visa. He said, you are going, they are going to put you in the prison. This is a fake visa. My father still doesn’t believe this is a visa. He doesn’t believe this is still a legal process. He said they were going to send him back. Because it’s like, like a miracle. During the process, my father was, in fact, against me. He was very angry from me. He said, [name], you are stupid. You have wasted all your money that you worked with the UN. You are crazy. Use this money to do something good. Marry, find something, or start a small project, but what kind of project during the war you can start? He said, you are not going to make it. You just burned your money. He was always saying that to me. For me, I said, I will continue even if I lost the last cent of my money. Because the next step was my life. I will put my life on my hand, the boot. My father didn’t know about that. Then, when I wanted to tell my parents, I cried. My mother was so scared. Why is he crying? They didn’t see me crying before. And I asked my mother, please forgive me. If I did something, make you angry. I told my father, please forgive me. If I did anything in my life, make you angry. My father was like 72 years old. My mother 70 years. I don’t want… I know that I’m not going to see them again. That was the first time when I left the home. Then, when I knew that I couldn’t pass the borders and I came back to home again, the next time was much more less. I started now to see what’s going on. Can I make it or not? I keep going to the borders day by day and giving a firewall, but every day much more less than the first time. My brother saw me. He came with me, [name]. He saw me. He wanted to cry because he said, [name], I am the only boy now in the home. Who is going to help me? Because in Gaza, the parents can’t get dependent. They can’t live alone. You need to go about 300 meters to bring a very heavy water. We have a very, very bad water. Everybody knows that. When Israel took Palestine, they took the most good water areas and they gave us the worst of the worst. So we have a very bad water. So we don’t drink it from the tube. We just have to go outside to buy it. And not good quality even, just at least better than the one from the tube. So you have to get like 20 gallons, 2 gallons, 50 gallons, 20 liters, very heavy, and you have to take it to the third floor. My father can never do that. He got many operations in his kidneys. He has a lot of health problems. He can’t carry it. And also we have bought a generator for electricity. You have to buy also with gallons, benzene. Very, very heavy. And also the generator, every day you have problems. You have also, because it’s Chinese, very low quality. We can’t buy expensive generators. We have very, very bad generators. My brother, just last week, he said to me there was a fire in the generator and it exploded. I was so lucky I didn’t die. The most dangerous part, generator, when you want to turn it on, it could explode in your face. It has exploded two times in my brother’s face. He got just small injuries, luckily. And I told my brother, if I live in Gaza and I get married, my father told me I can’t support you because my father, who saved some money from Saudi Arabia, we are living with this money. He said, my father, I can’t support one person only and his wife because he’s going to pay on you, on your wife and on your children. I said, if I lived in Gaza, you will never ever get married. You will never have a life. When I leave Gaza, this will be really good for you. And I promise you as soon as I go there and start my job, I will start helping you with money. Even now I am taking help from the government. Every month I save an amount of money and I send it to my brother to cheer him up. The whole home is above his head. He cares about everything. And it’s so dangerous situation, simply somebody can attack the home, take all the money, because people lost their minds. People start burning themselves with benzene. Boys, 19 years old, 18 years old, your life is gone, dead, dead people walking. They just take benzene and they put it on themselves and they put the fire. My brother said, are you really going to help me? I said, I will do my best to help you. As soon as I make amount of money, small amount of money, I will send it to you. I don’t want even save. I don’t want to save. Even I get help now, I don’t want to save my future. I think about my brother. Everything I save, I send it to my brother. In the last time when I passed the border, I was in the bus. First they take you into investigation, an Egyptian intelligence. They want to ask you questions. Who are you? Why you are leaving there? Why you are going there? Unfortunately, in Egypt, there is corruption. The Egyptians suffer also much because they get a very very bad salary. So there is corruption about bribes. He asked me several questions and he said to me, $3,000. This is very normal. All Palestinians know that. This is the least I was so lucky. Why he asked me for this amount of money? Because there is two types of people. Some people pay money previously like a V.I.B. and a lot of money like $5,000 and more. And if for example my number is 1,000, with the V.I.B., my real number is like 50,000. Because people just come before you and they just pass. We know that the V.I.B., but I don’t have this money. I lost all my money on other things, in the M.B.C., in the university, in the paper, documents, proving, D.H.L., a lot of D.H.L. University, V.U.B. asked me, send me the hard copies, then after this, this paper is missing, then we need a new paper, a lot of documents. I don’t have much money left. And the Romania, $2,000 is gone for nothing. He started talking to me and he asked me for $3,000. I said to him, why should I pay you $3,000? You didn’t pay me. He didn’t help me. I came normally by queue. My turn was this, and you didn’t do anything for me. Why should I help you? He said to me, where did you work? I said I worked with the UN for two years. He said, so you get dollar. They pay you with dollar. I said, yes, UN pay us with dollar. He said, and where you are going? I said, I’m going to Belgium. He said, that means you have money. I said, I’m sorry, I can’t pay you because I’m just waiting stamp from you. He said to me, okay, okay. That’s your choice. Then you have to wait your turn until they make announcement. Who are the ones who going to go to the bus? Usually, if you have the visa, everything, they just put the stamp and go to the bus. I was waiting, waiting. Everybody left and they started closing the lights. And the police came to me. What are you doing? I said, I am waiting. They didn’t announce me my name yet because either they announced your name or they give you your passport back. If you have a criminal record or if the intelligence found something wrong about you, they give you your passport and they put the stamp back in the passport. Like you will never leave the city. Back. Because they do something wrong with militias or Islamic armies or something like that. So they put back. For me, I didn’t even get my passport. Where is my passport even? And they closed the lights. The police said, where is your passport? I said, I don’t know. I am waiting. I am waiting you. They start wondering. They said, Ben, you are waiting. Everybody went home. The border is going to close. Everybody went home. I was in a huge shock. I said, why did you do that? I was in a huge shock. What happened? They said, wait, wait. We will make an interview with you. I said, this man in this room, they called him. He is not in the office. He went home. What he did, he put my passport inside the table, inside, and he closed it. As a revenge because I didn’t pay him $3,000. Then they called him. We can’t find the key. They opened and they said, sorry, man, your passport is not done. We didn’t look at it. I said, what? Why do you mean you didn’t look at it? He said, he didn’t look at it. Maybe he didn’t have time. I said, no, everybody got time except me. And I told him, he told me this and this and this. I said, then you should have paid him. Look what he did now. And everybody knows there is a bribe. In Egypt, the bribe is like normal. Here in Belgium, you can be crime. In Egypt, it’s normal bribe. Everybody knows that. All the army, everybody bribe, just pay money. How much you pay me, even a cigarette, you pay me a cigarette bribe. Normal bribe. But because of the suffering, they used the suffering to increase the money. They said to me, man, sorry, go back to Gaza. Do you imagine when I just passed the Egyptian borders? I was so happy, unbelievable so happy. Because finally I passed the borders. And then imagine that to go back to Gaza again. I was begging them, please, give me a special car. I’m going to pay for the car now. If I knew, if I knew that this person is going this, this to me, I’m going even to give him my clothes. All the money I just, the rest of the money I have and the clothes, I would just give him everything. Just to let me pass. I didn’t expect he would do that to me. I was begging them, please. Call a taxi, call a car. I’m going to pay for the car double price. Because it costs like $100, I’m going to pay $200. But please, I said, no, man, sorry. Because in Sinai, there is a war. And now when they close the borders from 3 to, from after 3 or after 4 p.m., Sinai is in a battle situation. Like if the tanks saw a car moving, they shoot the tank immediately, the car immediately. Because they put, they have like connection, like after 3, nobody should pass in this area. They sent me back to Gaza again. I lost my mind. I was like a crazy. I was, I can’t know, I don’t know how to say my feeling. Even my parents were very happy when I knew that I have passed. Then I came to Gaza, to home back again. I didn’t talk to anybody. I went to home. Everybody was shocked. What happened? I didn’t want to talk until the night came. Then my mother came. [name], tell me what happened. My father said, see, it was a fake visa. I said, my father, I have enough, please. And then I told them the story. My mother said, yes, [name], it’s really difficult. Just forget it. Forget it. I said, my mother. I will go every day, even if they send me hundreds of times back to the home. Finally, I got the visa and you want me to surrender after all? I came back again. Next day and next day and another two weeks. Finally, I reached the borders again another day. I was waiting the whole day. And two buses have passed the borders. And the last bus. Almost full. One person left. And my family told me, it’s over. It’s over. Because they announced in the news, Egyptian will allow the last bus and they close the borders after that. The bus, the third bus, already started moving and stopped just next to the door. And I told the borders, please. You know, this happened to me. They knew what happened to me. It was like a story in the borders. Everybody knew what happened to me. Please, let me go in this bus. Just, I want to, I don’t want to sit in the chair. Just only pass the borders and you change the bus. Just let me go. Please, this happened to me. And I have everything legal. They told us, but Egyptian maybe reject you. I said, I will convince them. I will tell them what, because I called the Egyptian embassy when I went back Gaza. I told them what happened. You know what she told me in the embassy? Say to me, okay, yeah. Then next time pay. She told me, then next time pay if he told you this time. I said, I told him, if I knew that he’s going to tell me, I would pay. Because when I leave this place, I will never ever come back again the rest of my life. Unless a dead body. If I died here, I want to send me back to Gaza. Maybe a dead body. They said to me, okay, try. Try your luck. Go. My luggage was still in the car. I was running on my foot. Just running so fast to the bus. I leave my luggage behind me. I don’t need your luggage. I said, please, bring it to me. I just run, run. I just want to go back. I’m not going to be without my luggage. I don’t want my luggage. Just want to go to the bus. I run quickly to the bus. I enter the bus and what they are doing. I said, I have a visa. This is my passport. I already finished. I checked the Palestinian, they checked everything and I passed. They asked me where is your luggage? I said, in the car. They said to me we will bring it to you. I said, man, it doesn’t, because you have to put the luggage in the bus. When the bus passes, they close the door. But they make some calls, and the bus passes, the gate, and they told me, where is your luggage, we have to search it. I said, it’s coming, it’s coming. I was so afraid, they sent me back again because of this problem. The good news, the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian controllers who control the borders, they sent my luggage, they knew my situation, they were sympathizing with me, and they sent with the taxi my luggage, and I got my luggage. I went again to another investigation, I was again with fear this time. So much afraid was going to happen this time. This time there was an older man, and he looked like a wise and a good man. He talked to me again, the same questions, and they announced my name, and this to me, okay, to Cairo. I called my parents. Everybody was exploding from happiness. Everybody exploded. Because everybody okay. At the end, [name] couldn’t make it. Just one, that’s simply the life in Gaza. When you have something makes you believe you made it, something unexpected could happen, turn your life upside down. The dream is gone. Everything is gone. With the wind, like this. Everything you have conscious is life in Gaza. You do a lot of things, and one small thing, everything is gone. I went to Cairo, we took by bus, during the bus we saw a lot of tanks, we saw a lot of black building exploded with the suicide bombers, because there is some, in Egypt they come with a car full of bombs, and he explode himself in a military building, so we saw a lot of like a real war in Sinai. Then I went to Cairo, and I took the plane, and when I was in the plane, I was still afraid. I said, you see, like I don’t trust anything anymore. I said, maybe something happened in the plane, and this is us to Cairo. When the plane start flying, I start slowly, slowly feeling the life start coming back to me, the hope. You see, the fear, so much fear. One small thing, everything is gone. My plane fly from Egypt, and when I was looking from the window, I said, I am not going ever, ever, ever to see this picture again, that I see not from the window. I hated the plane. I said, I am not going to ever take again a plane in my life. Even I love the plane so much. When I exactly hated the plane, I will explain what happened in the Brussels. Then I reached to Brussels. I have destroyed my passport, totally. I am like, I am not going back again. I destroyed my passport, and in the checkpoint, they told me passport. I said, I don’t have passport. When I passed, when the plane became first above Europe, and I saw from the window, Europe is under me. I can’t also explain how much happy I was. I was saying in the plane, whatever happens, happens. Even if the plane crashed now, at least I will just fall with a parachute above Europe. So you see the fear, the whole fear in the whole journey. Something could happen, like the plane is crashed, and you go back to Cairo, or whatever happens. I was so, I felt something happened. But now when I became above Europe, I said at least if the plane going to crash, and maybe I can’t find parachute, or something that I can fall, at least in Europe. That’s the beginning when the life start coming back inside me. A dead man, when I start seeing Europe. I was looking from the window, how is the Europe looking like? How is it look like? When I get closer to Belgium, I start to see a lot, and Germany. I start to see a lot of green, green. This is amazing picture. In Middle East, we have desert, only yellow, you see. I start to see a lot of green, and it was so amazing, it’s like heaven. Look to me. And the most biggest fear is what’s going to happen in the airport. My father, he said to me, they are going to beat you. They are going to throw you in the prison, and they are going to send you back. And I was so scared. When I met the person at the checkpoint, and he looked to me, you don’t have a passport? I said, yes, I don’t have a passport. Where is your passport? I have destroyed it. I said, okay, wait. He make a phone call, I was very, very afraid. Now, what’s going to happen?
[i] But, you know, if you destroyed it, they would never be able to send you back. Why did you destroy it?
[r] I destroyed it because the passport that I have, the Palestinian passport, we suffered so much because of it. You can’t go any place in the world. Usually, what’s the idea of passport? It’s just to show your identity. That’s it. But nowadays, the passport has got much more farther than that. If you are from this country, and you go to this country, this Palestinian, they reject you. Maybe you hear now, after Trump won the election, he started banning many passports, many people from coming to the USA. So, the Palestinian passport is the worst passport that ever existed on earth. Especially from Gaza. Because people say this country is controlled by militias, and we don’t want dangerous people coming. This is why the procedure is very difficult. We suffered so much because of this passport. Even Arab countries, even Egypt, they don’t allow you inside. Egypt, they said no. Because why? Because Gaza is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas was supporting the ex-president. I mean, they support even with military, with soldiers from tunnels under the ground. And Egypt was very angry. So, they don’t allow Palestinians, except the one who got a visa, and they already checked everything about him. So, when I reached there, and I said, I’m not ever coming back again, I destroyed my passport. I don’t know what’s in the legal process, can they send you back or not. But I said, at least if they want, I will have a chance to try to convince them. Because if I have my passport, and I ask for asylum in the airport, maybe they will send you back immediately. But I said, I don’t want to take a risk.
[i] But to understand, you had a student visa.
[r] Yeah.
[i] To enter.
[r] Yeah.
[i] But your idea was to, not student visa, to get and ask political asylum, not student.
[r] Yes. Because I was reading a lot in the government website. They said, if you ask asylum, when you go inside the city, it may take two years until you get a response. And maybe yes, maybe no. And mostly they get negative because they reject you. But if you ask in the airport, the decision will come in maximum three weeks. Decision. Three weeks maximum. I don’t want to waste more time in my life, two years, two years, waiting and fear and scared. I said, three weeks is enough according to what I just came out from the hell. I just came out from the hell. I can take more three weeks, but two years again, waiting for another hope. I said, it’s like be or not to be. I destroyed it. I don’t want to either yes or no. And in fact, if they say no, I don’t want to see what I was planning to do. Maybe out of my living, out of my mind things, I can’t do things. Like I said, if you want to send me back, just shoot me and send me back. That’s it. Like if they shoot me, they can use the maximum force, the maximum force to send me back. They put me in a closed center. When they said okay, he searched everything. He saw all my legal documents. I saw a copy. I have a copy of my visa. I have everything. I give him everything. My origin documents, my papers from the embassy, everything. They have everything about me. Origin ID. I have my ID. I’m Gaza. I have everything. I give them everything.
[i] And this was in a special room? In a special room? Investigation room in the airport.
[r] Yeah. In the checkpoint.
[i] They took you to a special room?
[r] Yeah. They took me to a special room. Because the man who couldn’t ask me for a spot, I didn’t have no spot, he just make a phone call. Another man took me inside. And then they searched everything. They searched all my luggage. They said everything. And they put me wait. We are making phone calls. And they make a lot of phone calls to check about identity. And they say yes. Now we know him. Yes, that’s right. He doesn’t have passport But that’s the person that we give him the visa. They check my photo, everything. And they make the fingerprint. They have to make a fingerprint. Because when you come to a European country, you have to put your finger. And then after that, they said to me, we are in the airport. I was so scared because there was a man. And I saw him. The cameraman. I will tell you why I call him the cameraman. He was telling them. Send him back. Back. He was like the plane. Because you come with the plane. They put you in the same plane before it goes back. So he was like… I saw him. Back. Back. There was like… I understand. I was so afraid. Why he is angry? Why he wants to send me back? But when I lived in Belgium, I understood why. Because many refugees in this country. And it cost them more of the taxes. Makes the taxes more. And I understood why the people are angry. Because this man is coming. He will get another help from the government. So I was wondering that. But why he is very angry? And why he wants to send me back badly? But the detective was really patient. He was dedicated to his job. He did his job.
[i] He was professional.
[r] He was professional. He didn’t let his own beliefs or his own ideas affect his job. I loved him. I was saying if that other man, he took my case, I am back. He would just throw me in the plane. I don’t know what could happen in Egypt. If they send me back, whatever. But I just was so afraid. And the man, after about three hours, four hours. He said to me, since you are asked for asylum. You have the right to wait for a decision from the court. And they sent me to a center close. Not open center. And that center is next to the airport. So we see all the planes. We see we are in the center. We look from the window and we see all the planes just landing in front of the airport directly. This center has special law. Like a neutral. Neutral. No government. Like they can use the force with you to send you back to your country. I saw many people in the room where I lived. From either Afghanistan or from… They used extreme force and they put them in the plane. They got beaten. Badly. They take them with three. When they get negative, negative. They take them with force back. Because if you get negative and then negative, negative. It’s not like inside the city. Inside the city, different. They can use the force because you are already inside the city. But the airport, totally different law. They can use extreme force against you. I finished the first interview. I was in the center first. When I went to the center, even it wasn’t close. You are not allowed to go outside. When I entered the center, I said, if I live the rest of my life in this center, I don’t want anything more. Just leave me live in this center. A room with four people and they give you food three times a day. I did that. I found electricity. 24 hour electricity finally. You find electricity, you find good food, you clean water. And finally you see… I was happy. So much happy. Even I saw some people from Europe, they were angry in the center. They were breaking the windows, breaking the chairs, saying why you are putting us in a prison. Because they also came for asylum from Albania. There was Albanians. And they were breaking the things. I was wondering like, people are angry. This is like a heaven for me. Enough. I want to stay here. I don’t want to go outside. If you give me negative, just let me live here. I want to live in this center. First, three times the food, a day, that’s enough. At least I’m not a pressure on my father. My father now, I make it easy for him, he doesn’t have to spend money on me. In the first interview, it was very hard interview. They interviewed me, it was very, very difficult.
[i] In the center?
[r] In the center. In the same center. They take you in the basement, down.
[i] And who interviewed you? The commissariat?
[r] A woman from the commissariat.
[i] The commissariat.
[r] She was very, very hard, in fact. She told me, you know that I can make a copy from the embassy from your passport and I can send you back? She was very strong with me. And I told her the story, I told her what happened with me. And I had to explain to her my reasons why I left Gaza. And the first interview, you get nothing. In the second interview, they… In the first five minutes, she told me, you are accepted.
[i] In the second interview?
[r] In the second interview. Immediately, she gave me the result. The first five minutes. Because she said, in the beginning, we checked everything. We are sure you came from Gaza. We are sure who you are now. And they decided to give you a positive.
[i] You were with the person for the second interview. You were telling. The first interview? How much time after the first interview was the second interview? What happened between the first and the second interview?
[r] After the first interview finished, the whole time was three weeks. As I said, maximum three weeks. So, the second interview was like after eight days, nine days. After the first interview. And… We just go back again to the center and live your normal life. I wanted to learn, because there is a library there in the center, I wanted to say some Dutch, because I was planning to come to the Flemish area, because my VUB, my university VUB is Flemish, and I wanted to live in… They say here in the Flemish area that the Flemish area has better jobs than the Wallonia. I didn’t want to go to a poor area that makes it harder or difficult for me, so I wanted to learn Dutch.
[i] And how did you know that it was a better job in Flemish? Because the Palestinians who already went to Belgium, we see the forums online in the internet. You start reading. People ask questions. I want to go to Belgium. Which city should I go? What should I do? People ask questions, and I was reading a lot, because I want to start quickly my life. So I decided, and even my university was a Dutch university, Flemish university, and when I went to the library, they told me… I guess it was like first experience. The system is a little bit complex here in Belgium. Like there are some institutions, only French, and some institutions only Dutch. In this center, there was no any Dutch book at all. All of it is French. I went to the man who works in the library. I told him, can you please help me to find a book, grammar or something in Dutch? I didn’t find any book. It’s all French. And he said to me, really? He came with me and he started searching, searching. One by one, we couldn’t find any book. And then there was a question in my mind, why? I don’t want to learn French. And he said, we have a course, language course, and also only French. No Dutch course in this institution. And I said, okay, that’s better than nothing. I wanted in fact to start quickly learning Dutch, but there was only French in this center. And I learned, started learning French, the greetings, the paces, and the numbers from 1 to 100 in French. And then we were waiting for the final decision from the commissariat. And then after that, in the morning, the decision usually comes in the morning, your assistant, my assistant, comes and she said, [name], they give you positive. Everybody was greeting me, saying congratulations, [name]. Everybody was happy. And the other people took negative. They were very, very, very sad in my room.
[i] Because most people who are there, they go back, no?
[r] Yes.
[i] Not to come, no? Most people they send back from this place, no?
[r] Yes. Most of them from Africa, they get negative. Afghans, they get negative. Iraqis. I even saw some people who were already in Belgium, and they send them back to the airport again, to send them back to their country. Even there were some people already in Belgium. And there was, I remember maybe I was the only one who got positive. All the ones I know, all of them negative. All of them. And two days before, there was a guy from Afghanistan also. He was beaten so badly. They took him with force to the airport. He rejected hardly. He was fighting. He didn’t want to go to the plane. And when they bring him back, because according to law, if somebody behaved in a very, very like strange way or very hard way, they give you another chance. Although he got negative two times. They say the whole process will start all over from the beginning. So he came and he was suffering from a lot of pain. And he wanted to go to the doctor. And I was so afraid. That was just before two days. Because I said if I want to do, to resist also, if they want to send me back, I don’t want to go back. And I was afraid maybe how hard they are going to beat me or how, what’s going to happen to me. I am very skinny person. Like when I came to Belgium, I was fifty one kilo and a half. Fifty one kilo and a half. And when I was in Belgium, like I was thirty five years old. So fifty one kilo and a half, this is really very little. And I can’t take a strong, somebody beat me badly or forcing me. I was worried about what was going to happen. And even like I can’t imagine go back to that place again. And then when I get visited. And then when I get visited. I was so happy. And they told me get ready. The same day. You are going to leave the center now. Another two police came from outside. They took me with a car. And they put me in the train station. It’s just next to the airport. The train station. Under the ground when you can see the trains. I don’t know how to use the train. I don’t know how to use the tram. I don’t know. Because you have to buy some kind of cars and things like that. I first saw a machine. People go to a machine. I looked at the machine. Everything in Dutch. I don’t understand anything.
[i] But they took you to the train station. They said that you have to go somewhere.
[r] No. Yeah. The center. They tell you we have sent you to another center. Open one. Until you find an apartment. Until you find your way. Find your way. They sent me to the center. The center in St. Rodin. Fedasil in Sint-Truiden, That’s your center.
[i] Did they just give direction?
[r] Nothing. They wrote it. No. Because I already have some few money left. Usually, they give you 20 euro. But they saw [name] has come a few money left. Luckily, the one in the Egyptian border didn’t take it from me. Because if he took it, they will give you 20 euro maximum. I guess. They give you to go to by train. And I got some money. Because when they search everything. Of course, they found everything. They have to write how much money you have when you come to Belgium. And I don’t want money from them. I have already some money left with me. And then they send me to Sint-Truiden. I don’t know this city. I immediately go to the computer laboratory in the center. I check where is Sint-Truiden. Just like a small place. And I don’t know much. I thought Brussels. I know Brussels. I know Antwerp. I know Ghent. I also don’t know Sint-Truiden. This is a small village. And they said to me, you have to go, I guess, by two trains even. Like, wow, that’s very far away. But I discovered later in Belgium, it’s like a system. There is no direct train to some places. You have to go to Leuven. And from Leuven, you have to change your train to Sint-Truiden. But the most important thing is that when the police take me to the airport. And they said to me, finally, you are free. That was the first moment of my life. I am outside the siege. If you look to the picture, a big siege in Gaza. Small, closed center in Belgium. Both of them are totally closed. But totally big difference. But finally, you are free.
[i] And the police they talk in English with you.
[r] Yeah, of course.
[i] You are free.
[r] Yeah, because I don’t know anything Dutch. Zero. We don’t speak Dutch in Gaza. Or French. Britain was colonizing us. So we don’t speak French at all. Like people from North Africa, they speak French. We don’t at all speak French. Said to me, this is all for your life. You are free. I went to the airport. And I was feeling the moment of freedom. If you thought about what is the most important or precious thing in this life is when you are free. That can never be bought by money. The freedom. I tried and tried to understand how to get a ticket. About the machine, I was like 15 minutes in front of the machine trying to understand how it works. And then I discovered later it works with the card, bank card. I don’t have a bank card. Or you can’t put money. It doesn’t work with money. It’s just like with a bank. Bank card. I couldn’t get a ticket. Then I was looking what should I do? What should I do? And in the center I asked them, how do I go to Sint-Truiden? They told me, careful. Take the train which goes to Genk. I said, Ghent? They said, no, no. Genk. It was difficult for me. Genk and Ghent. I don’t know the difference. They told me, if you take the train that goes to Ghent, you will find you in totally the other side of Belgium. Be very careful. I was just worried. I said, it doesn’t matter. Whatever I’m going to lose, I don’t care. I don’t care wherever I go. At least I will go somewhere else. Doesn’t matter. I will find it anyway. It was cold. It was rainy that night.
[r] At which date?
[r] At the end of October. Like 21 October. 21 October, 23 October. 2000, how much?
[r] 13.
[i] 13.
[r] That was the freedom day for me. Then I took the train. And I was asking a lot of people. In fact, I didn’t know which spot, which train I should take. I was asking a lot of people in the beginning. And there was a nice man. He helped me. He told me to go to this platform. Go to take this train. I have a luggage. A train came. And I didn’t know this is my train. He took my luggage. He helped me with me. Go quickly, quickly. This is your train. It goes quickly. I thought it takes a long time before the train leaves. It leaves very fast. Like just a minute or less than a minute it leaves. And I wanted to go quickly before it comes so dark. So he helped me. He put my luggage. And I go inside the train. I don’t know which station I should leave. Which train I should take. It was like difficult to go in the beginning. And from the train… I didn’t change the train. I asked people. People helped me to guide me where should I go. And then I reached the centre again. I went to the centre. And it was open centre. It was a little bit hard life. You stay in a place. You find like… It’s not like a room. It’s like a big room. And they put like a wood separate between people. And four in each room. But it’s like… You are like between two people. Between 20 persons. But they put like a wood between us. So it’s not isolated. It was so noisy. Because some people open radios and music. And you can’t sleep. It was a little bit difficult hard life. But I said it doesn’t matter. It’s just a matter of time. I found people two years, three years in the centre. They couldn’t find an apartment. Then I start to understand why. I start to discover a lot of things like… When you want to ask for apartments. You got rejected. They ask you what do you work. I said I am… I don’t have a job. I just became a refugee. And I want to stay in the country. They reject. So you know. And even in the city where I went. Sint-Truiden. They told us in the centre. Don’t search for apartment here. Because nobody is going to give you. Go somewhere else. Go to North. Go to West of Flanders. Go to Antwerp. Go to wherever you go. But don’t waste your time. Because to search for apartment. Usually we don’t have the internet. I think in our country. We don’t have internet to search apartment through the internet. I don’t know about this. You have to walk in the streets. And write the phone numbers in the windows. It was freezing. It was so cold. Because I have my clothes from my country. I don’t have the clothes that keep you warm. Special clothes that keep you warm. And it was so cold. Because it was November then. After that. And it was freezing. And it was so difficult for me to find an apartment. And even if I want to go. Search other cities. I need two trains. It was like a small village. Isolated from the world. And one train every hour. Like if you lose the train. You have to wait one hour for another train. And I keep searching searching. It was so difficult. Because the center told us. You have only six tickets free. Go and back. And if they are gone. They are not going to give you free tickets. You have to keep spending with your money. It was for me. I have to find something. And I went to the computer laboratory. I just wanted to talk with my family. I am there. They want to be sure I am safe. My father told me. I can’t sleep the whole night. When I talked to him in the messenger Skype. In the computer. And he said to me. I can’t sleep at night. I don’t know what happened to you. Because when I left. Until now there was no connection. No contact. The contact started when I went to the center.
[i] The first contact with the family.
[r] No in the close center. The first contact. I started on disclosing that token to them. And they give us… a sim card. Belgiums Ortel. It was Ortel, but no Ortel now. They closed it. I called them by phone. I thought it was just a waiting decision. After that I discovered. There is another way to search for an apartment online. I found a website called kapaza.be. This website saved me a lot. I guess now it was sold to 2ehands. Another website bought it. Everything. I succeeded to build my life. In the beginning in Belgium. Because of this website. Everything from this website. The home. I found it in kabaza. The furniture. It was expensive in Belgium. I want second hand. Everything I found it in the website. Everything in this room. From kabaza. The computer. The bed. The couch where I am sitting. Everything from kabaza. After one month. At the end of November. I found an apartment. It was the last ticket from the 6th. And the owner in fact. It is the same apartment where I live now. I didn’t leave it at all. Since I came here. Because I don’t want to have this experience again. Suffering to get an apartment. And in the center. They make it harder on you. They told you maximum 450 euro. They are not going to allow you to find an apartment. More expensive than that. Because the government will give you like 840. 850. And if you buy an apartment. 500 euro. How you are going to live with electricity. You need money for that. And they didn’t give you enough money. So I found this apartment was. 455 euro. Including the water and mazout [fuel oil]. The heating is with mazout. Not with electricity or gas. I said okay. I accept it. Why? For one reason. It was a very sunny apartment. If it is not sunny. I am not going to take it. Why? Because it was so cold in fact. Very very very cold. And this apartment. There is another room. Like this room is south. The sun hit me in the south. It keeps warm. The other room is. Other side north. I never sleep in the other room. Freezing even. Even in summer it is cold. So I was so happy I found this apartment. The owner rejected me in the beginning. When I found this apartment. It was not the owner who put it in Kabaza. Because the one who put in Kabaza. The people who already live in this apartment. Rented. And they just want to leave. And he wants to find somebody else. Because his contract didn’t finish yet. So the owner said. If you leave now. You will lose the guarantee. You have to find somebody. So I talked with. I came to make appointment. Come on this day I came. There was about like five people always came with me. To this apartment. I was. I saw it. I said I want it. Everybody saw it. He liked this apartment and said. Okay, nice, everything is nice. Everybody left after they saw the apartment. I didn’t leave. I said to the guy. There was a guy. His name is [name]. He lived with his girlfriend. And I told him can I please talk to you. He said okay yes. I told him that where I came from. Where I live. And I want this apartment badly. It’s getting so cold. I can’t. I want immediately to start my life. Immediately. He hid my story. And he’s sympathized with me. And he said, OK, I would try to talk to the owner. I know he is a difficult. But I would try to talk to him. He talked to him by phone. He rejected. No, find somebody else. He keep talking. Talking 40 minutes on phone.
[i] And you were there.
[r] I was here in this room. I never forget this friend. He is the first one helped me a lot to convince him. The owner. Gave him a chance. I know his story. This man is not as you think. Because people think refugees like bad. They do awful things. This man refused like educated. There are doctors. Professors came to with refugees. They are not as the media say. Sometimes bad or do bad things. Many many educated people came to. Left the country. Because of war. Because of the bad situation. He said okay. I will give him a chance. And I was so afraid. He was rejected. But I said I will give him a chance. I was again happy. I went back again to Sint-Truiden. And when I came here. For appointment. Interview with the owner. He asked me many questions. Tell me your story. Tell me a lot of questions. And he saw that I am educated person. I speak English. He was asking me why you come to this city. You know there is no jobs here. What’s your job. I am English teacher. He said no. We don’t want English teachers. It was like another interview with commissariat. Or I don’t know. Then he said okay. I will call you. Tell you what is my response. I took the train. I was in the middle of the way. I almost reached Leuven. He called me in the phone. When I waited him. He said wait me to answer you. I waited one hour, two hours, no response. It was so dark at night. I have to go quickly to the center. Because you have to catch up with the food there. If you miss it, it’s gone. So I wanted to go quickly to the center. I was in the train. Then he called me after three hours. He said okay, where are you now? I said I am in the train. He said no, come back again. I came back again to Antwerp. And he said okay. I accept you. I was so happy. That was just only one month. People for two years in the center. They told me. [name], do you want us to put you in the newspaper? They said yes, you are. The first one in this center ever that finds an apartment after one month. Because I don’t want to lose much more in my life. I only lost 35 years of my life. It’s gone. I want immediately to start my life. To feel the freedom. To walk in the streets. Just imagining that you are moving from a country to a country. This is like from a city, not from a country. I am four years in Belgium. I have never been outside Belgium. Because it looks like a huge to me. Finally you can move from a city to a city. This is maximum level of freedom. To moving from city to city. People told me you just go outside. For me going, just traveling, scares me. I am scared because traveling and what I have saw and the experience, scaring. Scaring like I don’t want to go anywhere else. I am going to stay here. That’s it. I don’t want anything more.
[i] You feel save here …
[r] I feel like that’s what I want. No more. No more than that. Four years in Belgium. I have never been outside Belgium. I visit other cities. Like Liège or like Mons. I visit Ghent. Other cities. That’s it. If I want to go to the future, I am really just to discover the world. I said first I have to build my business in the beginning. To find a job. To finish my university. My university started already. It was very difficult. You have to study very hard. Two years. Full two years master. Full program. A lot of research. A lot of exams and thesis. And finally I graduated with distinction. From the university. And I start searching for a job. Fighting my life. Try to find a job. It was also again difficult. Because of the language Because of… My university was in English. It was not in Dutch. And if you want to work in the school. I went to VDAB. They told me… If you want to work in our schools. You have to speak Dutch really really good. And… It will be really difficult for you. To be a teacher here. Although all my studies are in… For teaching. I am a teacher. I have to ease experience with you and … I have a bachelor in English. I did my master in educational sciences. So everything in teaching. And in Belgium if you want to work. You need a diploma. They don’t accept a job without a diploma. Everything with a diploma. At least with a course. And this is why it was difficult for me. I start applying for another jobs. And finally… I found this job in Red Star Line museum. And… Still hoping that… one day I find… the permanent job. I want just the first permanent job in my life.
[i] And… you… started to learn Dutch in Centrale?
[r] In Centrale… Yes. They give us a free course. And when I came to Antwerp I took an intensive Dutch course. I was very fast. I passed all the courses. I took the highest marks. In the courses. But I experience a problem. In the practicing. You study in the school. You go back home. You know the theory. You know the grammar. But speaking needs practice. You need to practice every day. I tried to go to Atlas here in Antwerp. To find like social communication. To contact people. It was not easy to find people to contact. It was very very difficult. To reach people. And… They showed me some groups. I joined these groups like one time a month. Two… It’s not enough. To practice your Dutch. And then the university started in English. I stopped the Dutch. Because it was really difficult. And it’s in Brussels, in Etterbeek. I don’t want to search an apartment in Brussels. Even more difficult. So I took two hours. And go two hours back. You have to take two train. And… Between each train you have to wait time. If you miss the train. There is no direct train to Eterbeek. You have to take from here to Brussels North. From Brussels North to take a train to Louvain-la-Neuve. And you leave in Eterbeek. Then after that. I start searching for how can I meet people. That was mission number one. With learning Dutch. How can I meet people. How can I reach people. So that I can practice with them Dutch. I found different ways to contact people. To reach people. Either like my friend. Who was living in this apartment. For example when he wanted to play football. He bring me with him. [name] come with me. We go together.
[i] You play football also?
[r] Yes. I play really good football. I love football.
[i] I will invite you. I play sometimes football also.
[r] Thank you very much. I wanted also to play football. And I was really playing good. When I was 17, 18 years old. And in the school. I went many times to the cup. Many times. I play football really good. But since a long time I left football. Since the war started in Gaza. And then we stopped football. Because there was something more important. Is leaving the place. And after that I went to Brasschaat. Where they play football. There is a football center there. Or a sports salon there. They play football. They talk very fast with each other. But I try to get what they say. Understand something. Because I encounter the dialects also. Then I started. More experience with the Dutch. I took a course. Administration and reception. The whole course in Dutch. That was the first course in Dutch. I took the course. It’s not an easy course. You have to study administration. A lot of administration things. How to write a message to somebody. Complaining about something. How to deal with customers and clients. A lot. Everything in Dutch. No word English. I took the course. Very intensive course. From 8 a.m. I leave home at 8 a.m. To start from 9 a.m. until 4.30. So the whole day. Like you take the course. I learned a lot of Dutch. My Dutch became really better. And I passed the course from the first time. And I was so happy. That finally I did the course in Dutch. Even in the course. Sometimes I don’t understand things. But I went to the exam. I passed it.
[i] How is your daily life? for you. here in Antwerp? Your daily life. Here in Antwerp. I am very happy. Very happy. A quiet city. Now I have a lot of friends. Since I was a child I have no friends. Since 15 years. No friends. The important thing for me now. To have a new person. close to me. To know the culture. To know the culture of Belgium. To understand the mentality. What people think. What is good for them. What is not good. It is important to understand people. Because sometimes you do something. And the person takes a step away from you. And we do not understand the culture, we have many cultural problems.
[i] I can imagine that. [Saudi Arabia and Gaza is a totally different culture. than here in Belgium. So I think. I can imagine that almost every day. Sometimes in interactions with people. That you understand things. Or that you experience funny things. That you think differently. And so on. The cultural differences. The first thing is girls. When I come to Belgium I looked at the girls. Because I am never married. Or never with a girl Or a girlfriend. Until today. Today I have a friend. Not a real girlfriend. A friend. Like I talk to girls. I talk to everyone. I start slowly. And the first thing was difficult for me. When you talk to a girl You see, you get a red face And you do not feel calm. That is a new experience with girls. When you start talking to girls. It is difficult in the beginning. And normally… I also look for people to marry her. I certainly will get married with a Belgian girl I have to understand… how are the people. How are things going here? In our country, I said, with mother. Yes, what does your mother do? and she does everything. But here, how can you, do you do it? You don’t know anyone I ask my friend. When I’ve seen beautiful girl in the street. And I talked to her. I think you’re beautiful, can I… No, no, no, don’t do that. I say why? That’s not That is not how it goes here in Belgium. If you’ve seen a girl and you talk to her She will be scared of you. Maybe she’s going to call the police. She thinks you’re a bad person or something. It is very, very completely different relationships happen. They know each other from school or collegues at work Or so and so instead. But I don’t know anyone. I haven’t found a job yet. My university all people from other countries And in Brussels And it is an international faculty. French faculty, so I don’t know any student in the class because they all live in Brussels And in Antwerp what am I supposed to do? To show: know me. So who comes, talk to me. That was the biggest problem. When I came to here I visit ATLAS often What am I supposed to do? Very slowly ATLAS helps me with a group sometimes As I said, once a month or more Then I’ve found another thing. And I think that thing is the best thing to get to know people. That was a website Look, one more time with the computer. The computer was my real friend. The computer helps me in everything. How can I go to Belgium to […] The computer helps me in everything. Until today I am computer addicted. Till today. Every day I sit with the computer. Because with this computer I have all the solutions for my problems in my life. I found a website meetup.com On this website how you can find social events Football. I didn’t find football. I have volleyball Cafe. Going to a cafe together And Philosophy. So I found the website And I made an account And then slowly I know people And now in Facebook I have a lot of people Facebook from this website And now I’m happy, I am not alone. I live in Belgium alone My family is there. I want to help my family. I try my best to send money. When I save, I donate directly to my family I have done this 3 or 4 times I have an event. In this cafe with people. Or in Brussels. I go to Brussels to the philosophy group. I have a lot of activities here now.
[i] [The camera is checked]
[i] We can switch to English again. I didn’t ask you, you are from Saudi Arabia, you are from Gaza, a Muslim country. Is religion or spirituality important in your life? I have friends of all faiths, of everything. I have an atheist, man does not believe in God. I have a Christian I have Jews]. I know Jews also Because to me It’s not important what you believe. The important thing for me is how you treat me. Respect. Each person is free to choose what he wants. What if you are friendly with me and you don’t have a problem with me and we talk together. Lots of meetup, in the meetup site. I have a lot of friends We have games Lots of people, and we laugh together when we play together. That’s important, respect It’s not about what you belief. Faith is personal to me and my heart. But with other people the important thing is respect. That’s something from you. You have chosen what you want. And that’s your belief. That’s not my business. That’s not what I should say that’s OK or not good. First of all, every person is free to choose what they want. For me, important, if this person respects me, that’s OK. Than he’s my friend. So many friends are from all religions I have here in Antwerp now [i That’s a good answer.
[r] One day, I was in a café, and a girl, came to me, and she asked me why did you come to Antwerp, and you know a lot of Jews live here. I said, first of all, that I didn’t choose the city. The city didn’t choose me. Because I was looking for an apartment online, and I found this apartment. And I came here, and I found a lot of sun, and good price, and I chose this apartment. So the city didn’t choose me. I didn’t choose the city. That’s one thing. Another thing, that it’s not important, as I said, who are you. What do you belief? important how do you speak with me, how friendly are you, that’s important. If you are good to to me, that’s enough. That’s all for me. In every country, you see good people, and bad people. In every country, In my city Gaza, there are good people and bad people. Bad hatred. He hates you, because you are not of this city, you are… Or… another kind of hate. So in any city, you can find, people like you, people don’t like you. [new camera position]
[i] Have you had a lot to do, in the time that you are here with… people who may be unfriendly, because you are not from here, but from somewhere else, or because you are from Palestine? Have you had problems with people sometimes?
[r] Yes. that’s a tough question. It was… The first thing that happened to me, it was in Sint-Truiden. When I came to Sint-Truiden in the last days, I had a lot of tooth pain. Because in Gaza, it’s a little bit expensive, and don’t have insurance. So… I was busy, looking for an apartment here. Then… I went to the center, I said I want a doctor for my teeth. And they told me to go to the doctor. He lives in his house. It’s not a hospital. A special one, that’s what they normally do. They have this doctor, they sent you to his house, and he has in his house, everything. And then I went to the doctor … Then I went to the doctor, He first he said, hello, hello. And then he gave me one question, from the beginning. He looked at me, and he said, Are you from Chechnya? Because in the center… sometimes there are people from Chechnya
[i] Where?
[r] In Sint-Truiden Refugees from Chechnya. Chechen? from Chechen. And I said, no. Why do you asked where I’m from But maybe it’s interesting I said: no, I’m not from Chechnya OK, which country from which country are you? I come from Palestine. From Palestine? I say, yeah. Then he makes a move, and he says, that is worse. worse than Chechnya. For me, I don’t really know what is going on. Why is he saying that? For me, it is important, I am in pain, and I want it to stop. If I’m not in pain, maybe I’ll go to another Stop, sorry, I don’t want to do this I want a different doctor. But I have to wait a long time. An appointment, in a week and I really have a lot of pain. And the doctor says, okay, sit here. And I lie down at the bed.
[i] Was it a dentist or a doctor?
[r] A dentist.
[i] [Dentist.
[r] Dentist. Toothache I have a lot of pain. And what did he do? He has, unfortunately, didn’t do well. It was the nerve, the nerve on this side.
[i] Nerve.
[r] He has cut the nerve. But he has… Not in the right way. Why I think not in the right way? Because when he did it, it was normal, a lot of pain. The pain is normal. He did it without… When you go to the dentist, first injects something to stop the pain. He said, we don’t have that here. I will do it without that. And he did that first. And the other thing… I saw that the other dentist there is another thing to make the blood go away. When he works… There is another thing to make the blood go away. He did it like that. So everything it was like that. So it was full of blood. And when he did it… When he did it… Normally, he says… Okay, clean your mouth. And I clean my mouth. And the blood doesn’t stop. A lot of blood. What happened? I don’t know why the blood doesn’t stop. He says… Yes? He says: yes, the blood doesn’t stop. He says: Yes, maybe five minutes. It will stop. Normally, five minutes. You can’t do anything? Maybe, make it a little less or so. He says… No, no, no. Five minutes. It will stop. And he spoke to me in a very strict manner. Like… Why did I come here? Why did I come here? And he was a little… like a soldier speaks… A captain speaks to a soldier. Or, a general speak to a soldier. He speaks not friendly, but very strict. And then I go outside, back to the centre. And the whole way, the blood didn’t stop. I had a lot of tissues, all gone. The blood didn’t stop. I don’t know what to do. I try every 15 minutes clean my mouth to remove the blood. I understand that he did bad things. But, six hours. Six hours long the blood didn’t stop. I go to the center, the administration, there. I told him what happened and he said this and that. And they said to me, Unfortunately that it happened to you, but you have to understand. The central, he said, here in Belgium, in this city, some people don’t want you here. And we try to find these these people to put a cross. So we don’t send refugees to this doctor anymore. So it’s good you said it to us. And we won’t send anyone to go to him. But I said, okay, but that’s not the problem. The problem is the blood. Sorry, it’s weekend Closed. Next day is weekend. If you want an appointment… I said, I’m not going to wait a week for it to be healed. I have to go to the hospital. To stop the blood. He said, okay, we make a phone call, a special doctor. The special doctor said, He said, give him only a medicine that prevents an infection Because I’m going to sleep And when the blood returns in your sleep than an infection will occur. But that doesn’t stop the blood either. And now, the doctor was like 10 a.m. From 10 a.m. until next day, the blood doesn’t stop. But the took the medicine, and at night. at 2 in the morning, no, 2 in the night I go outside and say: I go to the hospital. I can’t sleep. Because when I sleep the blood comes on the bed. It was raining, super cold, And I was looking in the city for the hospital? Where is the hospital? I couldn’t find the hospital. After two hours, I went back to the centre. I was going to sleep. And I slept. In the morning, the people who were in my room were in shock. While sleeping a lot of blood came from here. They see the red, it was red. But the good news, the blood stopped. That was the last day in the center. Because the next day, I have to leave Antwerp. And I said, the director gave me another appointment. I told him, no Then I left for Antwerp. I left for Antwerp. And I didn’t go to the doctor. Why? I have to do a lot of things. You have to do your apartment. You have to buy food. You have to do a lot of things. Then what happened? There was an infection in the nerve. The infection. Because he didn’t do a filling. He made something, […] or something. But it was open. And there was an infection. And when I went to the second doctor, the pain was great. The doctor said: Who did this? That’s not complete. No, he didn’t do everything. It was like this. He said, unfortunately I have to remove all the nerves. Because he didn’t do it all. One little piece. A small piece of this nerve. He said: I have to move fast, the whole nerve has to go. I have to operate. Long operation. It will last 1 hour and 40 minutes. And then the assistant here, said to me, If you want we can call the police and we will tell what he has done to you and so on. That’s your right. But I said, no, no, no. I have a lot of problems in the country. I will not begin my first day in Antwerp with a problem in the police. Forget it. That’s it. And that was the problem. I understand some people would are angry because refugees came to Belgium. I understand. And I knew that. Because the same happened in Saudi Arabia. For a long time, many people came from abroad and they had many jobs. And people there found no jobs. They become angry with us. And they had to leave. Because they made their lives more difficult for them. The apartment expensive there. Higher taxes. And everything became harder. So I hope that I can find normal people. Friendly people. I have met a lot of people. I have met a lot of people in Belgium. Very friendly people. Very good people.
[i] Do you still have contact with people from Palestine or Gaza here in Belgium?
[r] When I followed Netherlands courses, I saw some people from Palestine. Also in the airport. There was a Palestinian from Gaza. But normally I don’t feel like to contact people from my country. For one reason. To learn Dutch. I would like to speak every day. the language I want to learn. When I meet other people of my country Everyday speaking with them my language. It is hard to speak the other language. For example in Antwerp. I see a lot of people who have been in Belgium for 15 years and they still don’t speak Dutch. Because they live together, with the same language, in the same culture, and they work together. And they only speak their own language. So they don’t learn Dutch. But when I look for friends, Belgian friends, it helps me to learn Dutch faster.
[i] Are there certain cultural aspects of Palestine that are still important for you here in Belgium? For example, food, Palestine, or other things, like music.
[r] There is not a lot of food here. Normally, I see and go to a restaurant of people of the Middle East, for example a Syrian restaurant, I normally eat in the Middle East. In the Middle East, we eat a lot of spices. Spices and food makes it tasty or something. But here in Belgium, they don’t use spices. For example, chicken. The other day I was in a Belgium restaurant I ate chicken. But there is nothing, only meat. And in our country, we cook the chicken in a special way. In a normal way. It means, first, we put the chicken in the water. And then all the blood or bad things have to be removed from the chicken. Boil the chicken. And then we do 1 or 2 times sometimes, to make sure the chicken has no blood inside. And then we put the chicken in the oven. With this, it’s easy. The chicken comes and sometimes you find blood. And without spices. So I don’t like it. So normally, I go to the shop were people are from the Middle East And also cheaper. For instance when I buy chicken then grilled chicken. […] what it normally costs. Maybe, I don’t know, 10 euros or more. And in other stores I buy the whole chicken for 6 euros. Whole chicken, 5 to 6 euros. That’s cheaper. And the olives too. I also think the prices are more expensive And I found it in the street, Handelstraat. Very cheap. Very cheap. All prices cheap. You can buy one kilo of olives. All kinds of olives. Almost ten or nine kinds of olives. One kilo with 3.5 euros. One kilo. But the normal person if you buy, not a kilo… If you want to buy 250 grams of olives. That costs eight euros, seven euros. Too expensive. So I normally get from the store that… cheaper for me. And tasty. But my friend [name], he was in this apartment. One day he said [name] I’m going to teach you a typical Belgian food. And he invited me to his house. And I went to his house. And he gave me an apple mousse. And it was an apple with a chicken. Apple mousse with chicken. And it was delicious. But he said this chicken is from a Moroccan store. So he knows that I want the chicken to be really, really well grilled. Not too fast. If you make the chicken fast, I don’t eat this chicken. It has to be really, really well cooked. Because I make bacteria or something, I don’t want the chicken to be well cooked.
[i] So isn’t there something missing in terms of the culture of Palestine or Gaza?
[r] The culture is great. For example, the relationship between people is completely different. Here, people begin to start a relationship in a different way. That’s why I’m still trying to find a relationship that’s a little difficult. And I don’t know a lot of people. And if you know people, for example, my first experience with a relationship. I haven’t had a relationship so far. But the first time I find a girl and I talked to her. It was in a store, a supermarket. And she’s sitting at the cash register
[i] In Antwerp. In Antwerp. She was at the cash register. And I saw her sitting at the cash register and I thought it was really interesting. It was really interesting. But I didn’t do anything. I was not calm. What do I have to say? What do I do? And… I see that sometimes people at the cash register, so I didn’t do anything. The second time after one month, after three months. I always go to the same cash register. Because I feel something that makes me come to her. […] Then there was one day, not many people. Many people in the supermarket. And I said, okay, now three times I didn’t say anything. I said, okay, I have to be strong. And I have to, go to her, talk to her. Must do something. Normal in our country when a girl wears a ring on the left finger that means married. On the left. On the right fiance.
[i] Fiance.
[r] Here in Belgium, no ring. And she might be in a relationship. You don’t know, difficult. You don’t know, it’s a woman. In a relationship or something? Because you see the hand. Normally the hand is the signal. Signal, I have a man, sorry, you shouldn’t come But I look at the hand and you don’t know. But it was very difficult. to go to her. You have tot have courage to speak It was difficult. It was my first time. And I said, do you have time. She said, why? I said, I want to say something. She said, okay Looked around, no clients. Yes, you can say it. I said I am [name] coming to the supermarket and I am very interested to know you. I find you interesting and I want to know more about you. And the woman was very friendly. Was very respectful. And she said in English. I spoke Dutch. She said, are you asking me for dating? And man, very red There was another woman behind her at the cash register. She hears that too. Oh, what people heard, what people said. What she’s going to do. What she’s going to say now. Is she going to call the police? I was so scared, what’s going to happen now. I said, yes. I have to talk to you. I am very interested in knowing you. And she said, first reaction was like this And she said, thank you. Thank you very much, thank you very much. But alas, I have a boyfriend. Ah, I said okay. That I understand that people who have a ring, also have a relationship. Without a ring. That’s one of the problems I found here. You don’t know who is married and who is not. Who has a friend and who has no friend. No signal. I was a bit really stressed. That was my first time. But I was really stressed because I didn’t know. I felt that, I don’t know, was really sad. I’m going home. And I was…talking to no one. And I’m at home. I don’t know, I felt really, really sad.
[i] You feel what?
[r] Sad.
[i] Sad.
[r] I felt very, very sad. I don’t know why. But I felt like I lost something. I was very sad, but I said okay. I kept saying okay. I might try another time with different person. But, I’ll see. And then I get better after almost four days. Four days I was back, I felt better. That was the first time. So sometimes cultural things that were hard to know. The culture and know how it goes. Normally in Belgium people come from school, from job. It’s extremely difficult for me because I come to Belgium and I don’t know anyone. That was why it’s difficult.
[i] And how important is family for you? It’s very far away now. More than probably you won’t see it again. But we can still describe it. I know what the answer will be, but I still think it’s important to ask the question. What does family mean to you?
[r] From the first day I left Gaza, I wept. I cry. I cried. Because I know I won’t see my family again. And I never want to go back to Gaza, to hell. If you come from hell, do you want to go back to hell? That was not an option for me. I speak with my family using Skype or WhatsApp. Thanks to technology. With technology, with WhatsApp, with apps, you can talk to your family. But my father and mother did not think that they would see me again. They thought maybe [name] would come back. They did not want that… That was really the last time they saw our son. They did not understand. My father thought I would come back after Belgium to Gaza city or so. But I told my father that I had seen what had happened. And to me, when I was in Gaza. And what happened when I tried to leave. Normally, the university starts in September 2013. But because I could not leave Gaza, my university is gone. The university started and then October came and I could not start the university. So I called the university, please, you know the situation here. Could you please create a new one for September 2014? And that I could not come in 2013. The university said okay, no problem. And they changed it to 2014. If they had said, no, everything is gone. And now I miss my family very much. And I know that once I see my father cry Once I see my father, at my front door. And I was, my father come I can try… My father said: I am now 74 years old. And I’ve lived half my life as a stranger stranger. And I don’t want to feel like a stranger anymore. Enough. I live in Egypt, Libya, Saudi Arabia… enough. I want this country, I want to die in my country. I don’t feel like seeing much of this life, I have seen enough of this life. Only I want to leave this life. I only want one thing. I can see you are living a good life. That’s what I want. My father said: I have not seen a good life. But I want to see you living well. Quiet life. I am always asked this question. Have you found a job? You have this, you have that. That when you feel that everything is stable, life is normal. Then my father, alright. I don’t want to anymore. My father sometimes wants me; we can meet up. If the border is open, but that’s extremely difficult. For example, if … I am arranging a visa for my father to visit, not a refugee, but a visitor. It’s very difficult here because I don’t have a job, and the rules are difficult. And if I get a visa and the border is closed, the visa is gone and all the money is gone. So maybe I hope that one day I will see that my father when the border in Gaza is open in, for example, Turkey or so. That’s easier. Or maybe in Belgium, I don’t know. But if I do my best, it’s to find a job. But my family doesn’t feel like to… They said: I want to die in Gaza. I want to die in Gaza.
[i] But you’re never going back. Even if you are old, you cannot say it.
[r] When I left Gaza, that was, I said that. I will never, never, never, never go back to the hell. Gaza is hell. This is why many people go to war. Why? They are not going to war because they think we are going to win. They go to war because they think that when the war starts, we will be dead quickly. If I have two options for you. Would you rather die quickly or slowly? What would you choose? If you choose, you have two options. If you will die now, and you have to choose quickly, or very slowly with a lot of pain. People will say for sure, I want it to be quick. So people, when the war begins, okay, come war, and kill us, and then we are quiet. No more pain, no more problems, no more things.
[i] I would ask in English the question, could you say, are you happy?
[r] From the first day I came to Belgium, I was so happy. Until now, I still don’t believe this happened to me, and I finally made it. And I came here to Belgium. Especially when I see the beautiful green everywhere, green gardens. I go to the green places, I see green everywhere. I see peace, no problems in there, no suffering, clean water. I can drink from the tube water. I don’t have to go 300 meters to carry water. I see electricity 24 hours. I see… I mean, what do you need more? You don’t need more than that. Just to stay your life, I will be the maximum happiness for me when I find a permanent job. Then I will be really, really happy, because I will be able to really start my real life, to find a woman, and marry her, and have children. Even it’s too late for me, because in our city, the girls, when they became 30 years old, it means desperate. She has no hope to find a husband after 30 years old. It’s gone. Because there are many boys, there are few boys, more girls, because they died in the war. So when a girl finds a boy, it was like this is the happiest day in her life. A man comes to the girl. So this is why I will try just to reach my life stable, find a permanent job. And… Yeah, I mean like happy. I’m so grateful about what I have now. I don’t want more.
[i] [name] like you said, for the future you want a good stable job, and to make a family. Do you want children also in the future? Well, in our culture, like we say, the father says, the more one I love than my son is the son of my son. So it’s like a dream for the father to see your son. He wants to see your son, the son of my son. He said, the one I love more than my son is the son of my son. For me, I just wanted to make my father happy. And I know that even if I have a son, if I want children, I’m happy because they are going not to see what I have seen, what my father have seen, what we have seen. They will live in a good life at the end. So one is for my parents. I want them to make them happy to see my children. I succeeded in this life. Because for them, marrying and having children, this is the end. It’s like the okay. This is the life like. If you succeed to have a fun job and marry happy children, that means you have completed your mission in this life. But I… They think this way. They keep every time talking to me. Did you find? Did you find? I said, I’m trying. I’m trying. First, I need job and I need… Try to find a way that I can find… How can I get… How can I find my soul mate, as they say. And then… Let’s see how is life going on. But I’m so happy now and I’m comfortable. I’m… so grateful.
[i] The last two questions. Are you the same [name]? Than the [name] who left Gaza, today?
[r] Yes and No. Some things… Yes. Like I’m always on the computer. A lot of time, my friends too. But… It’s a bit cold outside. That was a problem for me Because my country is warm. And I want to go outside But… it’s very cold so I am at home most of the time. So I tried to find clothing to have a special clothes. very warm clothes. And I have… Sometimes people tell me about it… Sometimes a clothes that makes you really warm. When you go outside. And… And… I have changed a many things. Changed a few things. I have now… For example, I speak with girls now. I have a lot of friends. Friends, girls friends. And that was a new thing in my life. I have learnt that… I have observed that many individuals from diverse cultures And I understand that I am not… react… with people or… work with people from my culture. Must understand other people’s cultures. To find something that we can live together with respect and in a friendly manner. So, you don’t have to, for example, culture, for example… If someone has said [name] can you do that. For example, let’s do this. I say: I can’t do that now, because … For example, in our country, people don’t drink alcohol, and sometimes people see alcohol, that’s in religion, that’s not good for the body and so on But for me, I think it’s okay. That is her own business, I believe. I go out with people, I go to bars I frequently visit bars with people. He drinks alcohol, I drink something else. I don’t have any problems. I meet some people, they say, I don’t go to the bar because the alcohol is not good, and so on. But I drink a lot of alcohol. I go to a friend, they talk to each other, we talk together. And they have, his life I have my life It is important that we live together… and we respect each other. That’s important. And we are friendly with each other. That’s all.
[i] A new question that came to my mind. What do you think here in Europe, in Belgium quite a lot of people are in favour of such a movement Free Palestine and so on. Have you heard about it? People who show a great deal of solidarity in groups and such for Palestine. Is that important to you?
[r] I have heard that sometimes people in Brussels, I haven’t seen it in Antwerp. Because I don’t have much contact with people from my country. There are two or three people.
[i] No, no, I mean, especially people from Belgium. People who live here.
[r] Yes, this is why I chose Belgium. Because I know that Belgium stands in solidarity with Palestine. And in the latest vote at the UN, Belgium voted in favour of Palestine. That Jerusalem is not for only Israel. It’s for Palestine and for Israel. For the two countries. And then Trump stopped the funding. Now this month. Trump was under Palestine’s authority. And he stopped the funding. Belgium gives a lot of money to Palestine. So this is why I chose Palestine [Belgium] I am pleased… In every country, you can sometimes hate people, sometimes they don’t. But I am glad that the country is helping Palestine, assists Palestinians in their activities and daily lives.
[i] Do you have anything to add to this interview [name]? Is there anything important that you would like to say?
[r] I want that one day… the people in Gaza… will have a good live. And the pain will stop. That’s what I want. Because I have a lot… I am sad about my family because they still live in very difficult circumstances. I want this… pain will stop. And they will find a solution to this problem. That’s… what I hope now. And I hope that peace will come in the world. And that people no longer hate each other because you are from this country or you are from… you believe in this, you have this belief. It’s not important what they believe. What’s important is that we must respect each other. I hope that all people, in all the world. If that happens… then we will not have war. We have no hatred. We have no problems. And we live together. I hope it is possible. One day it will happen.
[i] Thank you.
[r] You’re welcome.