SU_A_38

[i] You can first introduce yourself briefly. That means you have to say what your name is, what you do. And you can also tell you. Very briefly. When you’re doing such. We have been from Kazakhstan to Belgium in the coming so many years. Just introduce you again. Then we will start afterwards.
[r] Okay, is good.
[i] OK. [name], can you tell me? Tell something about yourself? Briefly introduce.
[r] My name is [name]. I am 23 years old. I was born in Kazakhstan. And I came to Belgium with my parents at the age of three. I am a ghost word performance artist. And I am also a Master Psychology student.
[i] Can you tell me what memories you have of Kazakhstan?
[r] When I was still in Kazakhstan, I was three years old. I was there until I was three years old. They are mainly images, scents, colors. Especially in my apartment I still remember Kazakhstan well. That there was, for example, a swing in the middle of the hallway. Or that my grandfather made all wooden toys for me. Also in that apartment I all had very large hugs. So those are the things I remember. My family there too, my grandmother. My other grandmother there. They are rather feelings and impressions that you still keep from then. But not really such a very concrete situation there.
[i] How is life there anyway? Or how was life there then, at the time?
[r] For my parents, those were very young parents. So for them it was not difficult to be young parents anyway. And not being married too. Because my mother, for example, came from a Muslim family. And there it is not the intention that you already have children before marriage. And my parents, they were happy, but they were also very stressed and anxious there. Because there is also corruption in Kazakhstan. There are people there who are higher than the government. And also threaten people. And people and such disappear. So there is a vague tension that prevails there. In Kazakhstan you also have two large groups. You have the Kazakh and the Russians. And the Kazakhs don’t really like the Russians. Because they don’t really belong there. So there is a tension between those two groups. And my parents also had the feeling that this is not the place where I want to raise my daughter. Whether you wanted to offer her a future here. So that was the best solution for them to go somewhere else. Away from that corruption. Away from the danger there.
[i] We can go a lot of sides. It will also be something chaotic. Can you say something more about the place where your family comes from? Is that the capital? Is that countryside? How should I imagine? Your parents, your parents, Who are they, the time.
[r] So I was born in Almaty. That is a town where all my family lives. It is not the capital, but it is the previous, then capital. Then it was Alma-Ata, So Almaty, from where I came. But now that has become Astana. So yes, it used to be the capital. And how should you imagine? Lots of skyscrapers. A together apartment building that are all in four with playgrounds in the middle. And still very Soviet Union style buildings and roads. You don’t have that many traffic lights there either. In the past not. So that was dangerous if you wanted to cross. So for example my grandmother was like that … Often run over or my grandfather. So in terms of infrastructure it is vague in traffic. But if you go beyond, then you have a lot of nature. Kazakhstan, Almaty actually, is actually in a valley. So there are all mountains around there. So almost all residents there also have a kind of dacha. That is a kind of mountain house where they can go on the weekend or something. And my grandmother also had such a dacha that I already have very lively memories of. For example, there were a lot of blackberry and pears and apple trees and flowers. Really everything. Even as a child also very nice to walk around there. And for example the houses in Kazakhstan. For example, I remember that our apartment, I think had three front doors or something. And with one bulletproof. With one bulletproof. Your door. And yes, I also remember that I was once with my finger in between. Because I still remember that so vividly. But yes, it’s so … It is a beautiful country, But it is still under construction. It is so real building a bit. Everything is still a bit in the style of Soviet Union. There, but …
[i] What did daily life look like for your parents?
[r] Yes, my mother … I don’t know how … She also got me very young at her 21. So she was also working and stuff. And my father had a business in Kazakhstan. That was a starting computer store. At that time that was so modern. And… The thing is, in Kazakhstan, If you start a business there, as a self -employed person, then certain people come to visit you. And they then ask for a certain sum of your case. But those are a kind of extra taxes. In addition to the tax on the government. To keep and protect your case. Yes, that was after a time that my parents could no longer make ends meet. And those people couldn’t pay either. So that was a kind of tension of it. You hear that people disappear and so on, who don’t afford it. So yes, for my parents that was a bit of a fear that played then. And that has also been a motivator to go away from Kazakhstan forever.
[i] Is that Mafia or something?
[r] Yes, you can also describe that as a kind of mafia.
[i] Then are your parents coming to Belgium immediately? Or how did they decide to get here? And what do you know about it? Did they tell you that?
[r] Yes, they have told me vague things about that. They first heard from a few people that it is good in Belgium. And that you can easily get papers there as a stranger. And my mother wanted to study. So in the end they had chosen Belgium as a place to study and build life. And then they started requesting a visa via Russia for staying in Belgium. For my mother as a student and my father and I also received a visa. That was actually still strange, But we all got a visa. And so we could come to Belgium for a certain time of my mother studied … I remember vague things that we were very often in the car on the way somewhere in Europe. And that I often had to sleep in the car and sometimes had to go into hiding. I am not sure if it really has something to do with that, but, it is always a kind of tension of ow, they might find us or something. So when we were in Belgium, My parents, they were also very suspicious, hostile to people. For example, I was not allowed Russian speaking in public, but tell a three -year -old child, you were no longer allowed to speak the language, yes, that is quite difficult. So in the end it was that I am a bit unlearned to my Russian. Which is very unfortunate, but what I do understand from their fear And concern of ow, someone might find us here And maybe links with Kazakhstan and those things, So yes, when my parents came to Belgium then They also rented an apartment here, have started to learn the language, my mother went to study, My father is, I think do business administration. To finally be able to open a laundry salon. And we then lived in an apartment in Berchem, I remember. So yes, my mother went to study, My father just slowly Also to build a kind of business with laundry salons and those things. And then they had, they didn’t have many acquaintances either here in Belgium, they didn’t really have acquaintances here in Belgium, nobody knew And there were certain people, for example, who became friends with them. But after a time, when they found out that we had also left for other reasons, If they were also threatening to us, yes, if you don’t give us a certain amount, we will also say that you are here. So then we were actually already threatened here in Belgium, so that has …
[i] That had happened?
[r] Yes, my parents made that very suspicious of other Russians in Belgium. And I also think people in general, because at the time my mother studied, Her studies did not go well either, and we were always told of it, yes, you can are also returned now, If the studies are not going well. So my parents also had a request for being submitted in Belgium. In the meantime I also went to school here, kindergarten in Berchem. For example, we lived in Berchem for a while, until my parents had saved a little to buy a house in Antwerp, which was actually a squat almost or something, and they have completely renovated that, really did everything again, windows, doors, electricity, everything. It was all done by one friend or something. We started to build our lives in Belgium, And then the birth of my sister came too. That’s how we lived on in Antwerp, and everything was good, and we found our place here too. And my grandmother also occasionally visited Kazakhstan here. So everything went well, even though my parents were a bit closed off from the rest of the country, say. It was really always their two, our family, No one else, you were not allowed to talk to strangers Or don’t make friends with Russian people. So that was taught me a bit Which actually made me very timid, because I was allowed to speak all the languages, so Russian … Allez, my language was Russian so something bad, so I didn’t want to speak that either. I really wanted to be Belgian, be a Belgian, speak Dutch, so I was completely absorbed in those identities. Yes, I was also very timid, That is, so I was always like that … Also making a bit of my own friends was also very difficult. There was also a certain moment that my parents had said that around the age of five, six years, I had stopped talking for a year. For example, I know that this is called selective mutism, and that it often occurs in children who migrate, who stop talking. So that had happened to me then. Yes, that’s how we lived here.
[i] Did you always have to be Belgian then?
[r] I really wanted to throw that Russian identity from me. Certainly until I was about the age of twelve, I really wanted to be Belgian. I didn’t want my parents to say I was Russian. I didn’t want that Russian talked to me. I really thought that was something dirty. So I really wanted to be Belgian. Just have some kind of identity here. Because my parents also had the thing of this culture is not good, but you should not take over our culture. So that was very difficult to choose such a side. Am I now Russian? I am Belgian? What am I anyway? I can’t even speak the language. So that was …
[i] And how did life actually like papers and such? Or how was that for the family?
[r] That was also very difficult. So when we arrived in Belgium, applications were also served to become Belgian, but we had not requested an asylum. We had not applied for asylum. Why? Because with asylum application they would check why you fled. And first, those people should not find out. Secondly, they could not check that we are from those people who left. So based on that we could not get papers. So my parents had just submitted requests for Belgium, in the sense that we are already living here, my mother is studying, my parents want to work here. But that application was not answered for a long time. So we were a bit illegal in Belgium for ten years. So from my three to thirteenth. And that was difficult in the sense of … You were not allowed to go abroad, you were not allowed to visit family, you just couldn’t leave Belgium. And that feeling is a bit stifling. You could … You can’t leave. The thing of my grandmother, for example, also died in the time we were in Belgium. That was when I was ten years old. And my … yes, that was my mother’s mother. And my mother had submitted an application to the District House to be able to go to Kazakhstan for ten days to experience the funeral of my grandmother and then return. Also because she was responsible for the funeral for a large part and to arrange the grave. And all those things. The district house would have just said no, that is not possible. At that time my mother also got into a depression. Which also very much that they did not really feel sorry for their mother to died in their country of birth. You want to visit her anyway. Then you also create a kind of distrust a bit to government agencies. They are just not really human. And for example, my mother was then responsible for the grave. She could only arrange that completely two years ago. When we returned to Kazakhstan a few years ago, that grave was not finished. That was just a mountain of sand. And yes, Muslim graves are usually a bit simpler, but there was simply not provided at all or nothing. So that was really something very heavy for her. And also the fact of going on school trips or something, for example, that was not always obvious. Because your teacher knew that you don’t actually have papers that you are illegal. But yes, they still wanted to let you go to Germany on a school trip, Three hours or I don’t know what. So that was always the case with those teachers. Okay, if they stop us by bus, with the school bus, and I don’t have any papers, then everyone would get up for me. Then everyone would say something that I am not just taken, or I don’t know what. So that was always the fear of, oh, If we now come into contact with the police and they see that we have no papers, we can simply be sent back or sent to prison. So as a child you have always got stuffed in your ears, all, not being naughty and so on, not coming into contact with the police, not telling adults our story, just so silent about … yes, That message was always there. And then, when I was thirteen, they had called us to the district house. I was really taken out of the class and everything. And then they said on the district house that we were sent away actually, sent back actually, because our request to Belgium was not accepted. Even though we lived here for ten years and had work, speaking language, My sister was born here, my brother was already born here too. And they went to school here, and I went to school here in my life, But that was apparently no reason enough for them to keep us here. So that was …
[i] A house […]
[r] Excuse me? Yes, we already had a house, everything and such, so that was for us, yes, we can’t even leave that here, We have built up our lives here, why do we suddenly have to leave? So that was also such a slap in the face of, Belgium you just don’t want and whatever you do No matter how hard you start working, we will never be Belgian and you don’t hear here. That was a bit of that message for us, yes, we can’t do anything right, say. But yes, we really were not gone, so we appealed, Yes, with lawyers and so on, and that also cost a lot of money for my parents. But in the end, after six months, a year, We finally had our finding of residence. That is a ticket that says that you can stay legally in Belgium for five years. But for us that was quite a victory, You understand because we were illegal for ten years. And always that fear of, if there is police control, they can simply put us in prison, that was no longer there, That fear was no longer there. And also the fact of, we can finally go back to Kazakhstan and our Visiting the family that we have not been able to do it for ten years. So for us that was really a wonderful feeling of, we are finally legal here. We may not be none Belgian, but we are legal. And then my parents would again have submitted a request to be Belgian. And he had not been answered until last year. But they do have them now Belgian identity card .. And I actually had to apply for mine again, because at that time from my thirteen to twenty -one I became of age. So they had their papers, but I should apply for that again, because in those ten years I became of age. So I really got my Belgian pass a month ago after being in Belgium for twenty years. So yes, for me that is a kind of end to chapter. I am finally a part of Belgium here. I am also entitled to things. I am a burger. Just the fact that you live in Belgium like that, but exactly should not be here, gives a very nasty feeling. Anyway. That keeps hanging around. Even though everyone sees you as a Belgian and one of you, on paper it is not. And on paper I am a bit of a stranger, we don’t know you, you are not ours, you are not entitled to the same right as we are. The Constitution literally says, every Belgian is entitled to … Every Belgian is entitled to … So that does not even apply to people who are not Belgian. So yes, I feel like a multi -person.
[i] recently?
[r] Yes, really recently. Really a month ago. Two months ago. When I got that ticket. Yes, that’s just …
[i] I have ever seen you do a slam … That is called, is that possible? Refugee or something?
[r] Yes.
[i] What did you make that from?
[r] That was actually a means for me to show people of there are also not traditional refugees, there are also people who do not only flee war, there are people who also flee corruption. And I actually want people who flee a bit of a heart stabbing the belt, I understand you and I feel like you too, Even though I did not come from the same situation, I did not have fled from a war zone or something, But I feel the distance that you as a stranger feel here towards someone else. I understand it and I want to give it a bit back Giving a kind of feeling that you are not alone. And also to people to tell that things happen in other countries that are not okay. I just have to say that there are not traditional refugees. My story is there too, even though it might not be a very bad story or something, in comparison with, for example, someone who really had to flee from a war country, But that we are there too and that we also want to be here and do everything we can to be here. And why don’t we get papers? Then why did we have to wait twenty years for papers? Why is the system in Belgium like that? So I also want people to think a bit about it. What is a Belgian? What is a refugee? What is an immigrant? Those are all terms that we stick on it, but actually … Someone that is not a Belgian, is he a burger? Is he a human, even if the Belgian rights do not apply to him? Yes, I want that a bit with that,
[i] And can you do a piece about it?
[r] Yes.
[i] You can look in the lens is fun.
[r] Since childhood I walked away from violence, Corruption and terror in my hometown itself. I had to flee with my parents Because people threatened us with death. I was too young to understand So I just crawled on my lap. But in their gaze I saw the fear shot through them here. I was no longer allowed to speak my language So many questions but no answer. Mama heard about Belgium and that it was safe there. So when I finished three, we left and left everything behind. Finished. Because my dad had a business and he didn’t run very well, so when he couldn’t pay them, They said he was going to pay. So we had to leave forever at the age of three. Yes, Mama told me we were going away, she told me it had to be. Long nights in the car. I often had to hide. The fear that remained afterwards could not be stopped for years, as when we came here. Then we were soon threatened. They started to understand why my parents are so enemy. No asylum application, because then they would know. Anonymous we had to stay for our country that we could no longer enter, but anonymous became illegal, So no identity and even my heart no longer knew where she was going or where she should be. And now I write down my story in broken lines, broken tires, no longer to glue my family. You have to understand, we never wanted this either. And when people talk about refugees, my heart sometimes stands still. I am getting still. Of years of silence about my own too insecure and shy I thought I would not reach anyone until I was on a stage. And my nose was pressed on the facts that everything I want, I will and can reach. My head is sometimes sleepless, but the dreams are infinite and nobody is illegal. Let that stay with you, because I found my place here and you would get your place here too. That was a piece.
[i] Was that completely?
[r] No, there is normally another front piece that I would sing. And then I repeat that at the end But not singing. So that’s true.
[i] Isn’t that such a catharsis, that song?
[r] Yes, a bit. Yes, a bit like that.
[i] A summary of feelings and stories.
[r] Yes, that also feels so very therapeutic to get that feedback about it. That is also a kind of ending for myself, a bit.
[i] Is that important to make that? Have your parents heard that?
[r] Yes, my parents have heard that, here in Arenberg also happened to be. Yes, they thought it was beautiful. But they do say that certain things in my story are not hundred percent correct. Such as long nights in the car. I already have a lot of memories that we were in the car, but my parents say we came by plane. Yes, so what things are not directly linked to that. Or that they say they were not so anxious, but as a child you really feel that. They deny the whole dramatic of it, but they also grew up in a context of nothing just saying about yourself or your family or about the culture. Because you can indeed disappear. In the Soviet Union that was, if you said something bad about the system, the next day you are no longer there. So yes, they still have that fear. They think it is more positive to articulate. Not so that we really have to flee or something because … They don’t like to hear that. Also because they want to think that we did not come as a student to study here. So that application was also submitted. They are still so afraid that their papers will be taken away if they had said something wrong. So yes, it’s so hard somewhere. But I understand them and …
[i] I think that always happens between perhaps the generations of people who have fled or migrated. That that is such a gap.
[r] Yes.
[i] In all respects actually.
[r] Yes, indeed.
[i] But actually it is important to talk about that. Otherwise you actually grow apart, I think.
[r] Yes, that’s true. Yes, But we also talk about it. They also enjoy telling the story about their past, how they grew up in Kazakhstan. Yes, but … There is a big gap between my parents too. They then live even more in the traditional, I am more modern, say, think and such. They also have prejudices with regard to certain groups in Belgium. While, yes, I am an activist towards anti -racism, anti -sexism, homophobia. Yes, they sometimes still have traditional ideas about it. But they are also very … Compared to people who Kazakhstan living, they are very modern. That is. So … but yes, I also understand them. And I think, they do too. But they found it difficult that I always asked so many questions about why they had come to Belgium, why they away from there. Yes, so they never thought that was really nice questions Because they didn’t really want to talk about that either. Whether they didn’t really want to tell me that it really didn’t go so well there. So, yes … It is still vague, but … It’s still … The narrative is still being constructed. Say, between us then.
[i] And if you ever had children yourself, you would tell them about Kazakhstan, Or take it there?
[r] I would tell them about it anyway. I would take them there anyway, because all my family lives there. And I think, if I have a child, that I want to show it during my family. But for that I first have to … Pick up back, because through all those years that is very watered down. The contact with family is also very difficult. They also look down a bit at the fact that I can’t Russian or very bad Russian. So that is also difficult to restore those tires. Because you hardly see each other for ten years. Only via Skype perhaps once every few months, or during Christmas or something. So that is difficult, but I would like my children anyway … Want to show Kazakhstan, But not to really live there. I think I am far too westernized for that.
[i] For that you said, When you grew up, the greatest fear of being sent back to Kazakhstan was. Not anymore, I think.
[r] No, yes, now … Now that is not going … It would be funny, but in the past my parents sometimes threatened, if they wanted to punish me or something, I will not send back to Kazakhstan. But on the other hand, they were also afraid that they wanted to return to Kazakhstan. That was always a fear that prevailed, but now that you have that piece of paper, so you no longer have the fear, no longer the threat that you suddenly have to leave, without reason, there is a kind of reassurance. So now, if you get a Belgian identity card, you actually lose yourself Kazakh nationality. Because Kazakhstan is so of it if you want a different nationality, then you commit state fraud. So you are no longer a citizen of Kazakhstan. So you lose all the rights as Kazakh. So now if I wanted to go to Kazakhstan, I would also have to apply for a visa in order to stay there for a certain time. So that is also something else. Now I am not really a Kazakh in Kazakhstan either. Now I am also a Belgian Kazakhstan. So also something else.
[i] Then you can say that you can depend on a piece of paper?
[r] Yes, anyway. It is a kind of certainty that you give not … It is the certainty that you miss as you don’t have it. I don’t really have many rights and I can do what they want with me. And I don’t really have much to say about that, not much influence on. And I just have to wait until they accept me here, say. Yes, I think happiness can depend on a paper, even though it sounds banal. But they are so many things that it entails. And also the feeling that you give to be in Belgium as a resident. To be in Belgium, But not just … … nothing to have or … Allee, having no threat, is already a factor of … … being satisfied. So I think …
[i] Are your parents nostalgic?
[r] My mother did. She mainly misses it Soviet Union regime. Especially not necessarily Kazakhstan, Because she was also born in Germany. Also something vague, On such a army base. So for example, she has no birth certificate. Because that was on the Russian side of Germany. So she has no birth act. So, for example, she is not recognized as my mother. Something super vague, because when she also came to Belgium … … to request her pass, and when she was registered in the population register … … they wrote her name three times wrong. And that woman no longer wanted to adjust that. So she said, okay, your name is now [name], instead of [name]. So she is not actually recognized as my mother, on paper. I don’t know if that will ever be a problem. But yes, it is funny that she is not my mother on paper.
[i] Typical Belgian bureaucracy …
[r] Yes, I don’t know.
[i] Yes.
[r] Yes, that is … the fact that they didn’t want to adjust it in it.
[i] you can’t Do DNA test or something?
[r] Yes, I don’t know. So far we have not experienced a problem with that, except when I had to submit my application. And when, for example, she had to submit her application, but … Yes, it’s over now, say. Yes.
[i] So my question that they are nostalgic, they have … Still traditions of they eat, from …
[r] Yes, yes.
[i] How do you deal with that?
[r] Yes, they do have their own way to shape their culture here. Especially because of indeed eating habits. My mother … She cooks Russian and Kazakh things very well, but … Western food is not that tasty at all. So you notice that it is still very hard in her. She knows exactly how to make that dish Because she really learned that from her grandmother. You can taste that in those things, that it contains culture and history. And with that they mainly maintain it. Especially by eating, and also on Friday and Saturday … Also in Russian culture you usually have that whole table is full of snacks, pickles or those salads or something. The entire table is full. So they have kept that tradition somewhere. Even though it is only my mother and my father who eat it. Normally it is the whole family. But yes, they still have that for themselves. And too, yes. My father then drinks vodka and so, often. So in that respect that is also the whole of the Eastern bloc. And… Those are the only real things they really have left, I think. In terms of clothing style or something is not real Kazakh or Russian. In terms of our house is also so modern. But for example their bedroom … I don’t know if that really has something to do with Russian, but their bedroom is really full of paintings. And I don’t know if that is because my father also sees a little antiques as his hobby. But really, such a room like this would completely … There would be no more place left to hang something. Just everywhere. And really many golden frames and golden jewels. Like that of those things. I notice, when I look at my Kazakh family, they are all a lot of jewelry, a lot of gold. Like that of those things. So they still have that. For the rest we have Russian TV at home. So they look that every evening. They have Russian series that they always follow. Watch Russian news too. That also completely different from Belgian news, by the way. If they say this in Belgian news, They say that in Russian news. And that is really very absurd. So then we will discuss that. What do we just have on one VRT seen? And what do we see here? How does that influence each other? TV and food are left, but really something … Yes, their language and their humor and such.
[i] And what is that for you, with you personally, being the Kazakh-Belgian? You may not have language anymore.
[r] Well yes, so …
[i] TV, I don’t know, are you looking at it?
[r] I understand it very well. So I could watch TV. And sometimes I also watch. Some programs are really interesting.
[i] How do you construct your identity?
[r] Gosh, that’s difficult, I … Don’t really try to see me as someone really from Kazakhstan or from Belgium, more like just a person of the world or something. And that sounds very cliché, but you will not feel at home here or at home. And all the time I lived in Belgium, I really hoped if I get to Kazakhstan, I’m going to feel back home there. And then you get there and you don’t feel at home there either. And then you think of Who am I actually? I am not there … I am not in Belgium Kazakh. I am not a Belgian in Kazakhstan. I am not a Belgian in Belgium. I am in Kazakhstan not a Kazakh. I’m not there. So what does that actually make me? You start to see yourself a little more like just like that, yes, A piece from everywhere. For example, if you want to write down my origins, Because my mother is Russian Tatar, That is also such a republic within Russia that is a bit separated from the rest of Russia. They have a completely different culture. They are very traditional Islamic, all wear headscarves, all live in very low houses, eat on the floor, Make their own milk products and such things. They really just live from the farm, and so on. My father … his mother is Russian, but her parents also got to know each other on the border of Ukraine poles. And there is Jewish blood in something. So you will not see them anyway as the Kazakh or the Russian, because you already have a strange mix of other nationalities in your family anyway. I sometimes see myself as Eastern Bloc, just general. I do identify with my Eastern Bloc friends. Allee, if I deal with Poles or Russians or Ukrainians, Then we feel that there is something in common. I don’t know what it is, but then we identify as an Eastern Bloc. When I’m in a group of poets, They just call me poets. When I’m at school I’m just a student. It is almost only my last name that really demonstrates. I’m still somewhere else. It’s not my appearance. It’s not my … I don’t even have an accent. Some people say so, but you won’t even notice when you talk to me, that I come from somewhere else. If I explain that, I have always had the advantage that I have not really been approached racist, As some other people see. So how you shape your identity, difficult. I am still looking for a place in my head, how all those elements come together. I just try to see myself as Antwerp or human in the world.
[i] Had you ever written about that, About that identity construction or something?
[r] Yes, when I was younger, I wrote things about it, but I don’t know them from outside. But writing is indeed a means that helped me in that process. Also the fact that I go to Kazakhstan and see those things there and compare them with here. For example, I also have when I was seventeen, eighteen or something, I had more of art gang Also here in the Arenberg. Then I was second with my photography series. That was a series I had made in Kazakhstan, To show the contrast with here, But also on the basis of those photos to tell my story. That was also a kind of expression. I think I often use art to get a bit like that to indicate meaning and form for myself and for others. I don’t really know a lot of people like myself who have experienced the same story. Here it is so difficult to really identify with someone else. For example, I also know Russians, but they know the language Then very good and they really identify as Russian. I also know Kazakh who can’t do Kazakhs, none Russian, and really identify with Belgian. That really is nothing about that culture, but looking like Kazakh. I do notice that that is a bit different for everyone. I try to use art to create a bit of a story. Sometimes it is not easy to see that in one thing.
[i] Do you remember the first time you … Brought something of yourself on a stage?
[r] Around my origin and everything, or just general. That was in the Summer Factory during Mama’s Open Mic. I had brought a text about spiritual disorders there. That was when I was seventeen So that was five years ago. That text was just very well received too. So I was happy about that Because I had a kind of … Also put a heart under the belt of people with mental problems. But also people a little awareness of … This is there, and we also have to look at such people. Don’t just ignore, or just find it strange, from people like us. So that was also very therapeutic, activist for me.
[i] A few questions. A whole … I’m not going to come back with that question. A lot to continue. What is Slam Poetry for you?
[r] slam poetry for me is … Poetry mixed with theater on a stage to … bringing groceries to people and being able to touch people. So slam poetry for me. I think it’s very beautiful if … When I transfer a message to the public and it is very nicely received. I notice that people feel touched or understand. Or if people come to me afterwards and say … What you just said, that may not be the story of me, but I feel it now. Whether something in me was reminded of that feeling that you had there. That was for example … I had indeed brought that text from the Netherlands in the Netherlands last week. And a girl had come to me … What you have told you to be in that text about distance and migrant, that is also a bit what I feel when I am bullied. And that was a girl of fifteen years old and she told me … Indeed, that she is being bullied and how she dealt with it. And I just thought it was so beautiful how she recognized that feeling in herself with like … Feeling distance towards people. By not really feeling in your place. Or I had once done a text around abortion and then a man would have come to me … Yes, my unborn daughter died. And I also notice that that is very therapeutic for other people too. To expose you so that other people have something of … Oh, I am not alone. Or there are still people who feel like me. Or if she can do it, Can I do it too. I actually want to give that message from … It is not because I am here that you cannot stand here and you can tell things here. And people can open their eyes. That is also something I want with Slam Poetry. People open their eyes through … Yes, sometimes even shocking or something. To just make a click somewhere … This is, this exists, this is there. And we just have to learn to deal with that together. So I think Slam Poetry is a very powerful means to change things. Or to release feelings in people.
[i] And how would you … It is used immediately. How would you describe a refugee?
[r] A refugee is for me someone who is driven by fear to another place to have it better for himself. That is a refugee for me. So it can be someone who had to flee due to war conditions. Or someone who had to flee because he is gay and that is not allowed in his country. Yes, I think that is such a comprehensive concept for everyone who is threatened. And must leave the impending situation, because it is no longer feasible. And that can also be due to natural disasters or something, that can be through war, that can be politics, by corruption, I know a lot of something. But I think everyone should have the right to leave a place where you can no longer live. It should always be that way, I think. Why would someone from Belgium who want to be an engineer in China, why can he go to happiness in another country, but someone who literally has to flee before his death should not be lucky to be non-death in another country. And that is what I think is so unfortunate about Europe that it lives a bit with the thing of just us, nobody comes in anymore. But Europe also has a whole history of colonization and this and that, so … Yes, I think it’s … Just be human for everyone. Just think of how would I be in that situation? Wouldn’t I want to leave? Why would someone put his child on a boat if the water were more dangerous than the country? People don’t flee for pleasure, not anyway. Fleeing is not for pleasure anyway. What is different from, for example, with expats or something. So yes, I think the word refugee … Yes, it is actually difficult to really describe that, but … Yes, just … Having it away because it can’t be otherwise. Incredible situations too, although in Belgium, for example, you are threatened by the Mafia, you should indeed also be able to flee somewhere else. Such things.
[i] I’m just going to … [exchange] Can you still tell. What are your dreams for the future?
[r] My dreams for the future … I want to publish another book. I want to release a collection of poems. I want to complete my education as a psychotherapist and start as a psychotherapist. I want to continue building and expanding and expanding my career as a spoken word artist. As well as my career as a musician, singer, rapster. As well as I may want to go into politics later to be able to change things like this. I hope that I already have a kind of political voice in the future. Or that I can still influence people, their behavior or the way things are arranged in Belgium. Or that my story can also contribute to that. For example, because people who are just in Belgium, that they don’t have to wait twenty years for their papers and always have to live in fear. If I could do something about that, it would be very fun. As well as I also want to be an activist and perform for all kinds of minority organizations. And just try to change the world in a positive way. That is my biggest dream. And to leave something that can be valuable to the people later. Like a book. Really a good book.
[i] Do you want to bring something in the lens to close? You can choose.
[r] think for a moment. I don’t really come up with something at the moment, it has been just as long since I brought something out of the head.
[i] only short, huh.
[r] If the night takes my smile, I take the night black. I wear that color during the day and laugh the last at night. That was something very short.
[i] Thank you, that was a nice ending.