SU_A_37

[i] Can you introduce yourself?
[r] Yes. Again. Yes I am [name], I am from Iraq, from Baghdad, the capital of Iraq. I am 36 years old. I live in Berchem, [name], close to train station. And I now work as a theater maker with different organization, here in Antwerp. And also in other cities, in Belgium.
[i] Can you imagine briefly?
[r] Yes. About me. Yes okay. I am [name], I come from Iraq, out Baghdad, the capital of Iraq, in Baghdad. I am 36 years old. I studied theater for nine years. Five years as an actor and four years as a director. I have a baccalaureate. I live in Baghdad … On all my life there. Baghdad is the most beautiful place in Iraq for me. Because I grew up there, Between my family and my friends. With all the different situations there. I was born in 1983. That was really a special date. Because, we had war between Iraq and Iran … With the Iranians, for eight years. So I was born between the war. Then I grew up a bit. Then we have another war again. Iraq and Kuwait. That is in the 1990s. That is really a different situation. Because there we also have problems with America. About what happens in Kuwait. Then America came to our country. And then we also have another war. And then America comes again. And then comes America again. And then comes America again. Until now. So when I see my life there … It is really a situation of different time. But it’s always there, it’s war. In a different situation it is war. It is war in another place. So when I see my life It is really between the war. I was born between the war. Grew up between the war. And I have my Baccalaureate degree with the war. So that is more information about my life there.
[i] Maybe somewhere.
[r] Yes.
[r] Let go, [name]. Before you emigrate.
[r] Yes. I’ll just make it. Okay.
[i] What is your earliest memory? That means, what has been the longest since you remember in your life.
[r] aha.
[i] at what time. Whether it was a baby or was a child. With the relationship with the family. Where you grew up.
[r] I have many memories about my life. But when I see that, I will see that … Step by step. The first time, when I was a child. I remember that everything was easier for me. I don’t think much about what I have to do. I was just trying to play. That’s what I do. I play with my friends. I always play in the same street. That was just … The most beautiful … I had memory now. But then I have someone else. That is when I grew up a bit. Then I went to the theater school. That wasn’t my dream. But it was really a different situation, a different story. But the first time I went there. And I remember … this moment. I know nothing about theater. I have no information. And then it was … I have to make an interview. And that interview … you really have to have a little bit … For … a certain … Theater school is well known. Like … Shakespeare … or Samuel Beckett … or Brecht or something. You really have to choose scene of their work. And you have to do that scene. And maybe if you can … A bit of Stanislavski … Or Sophocles or something. So for me … That was really weird. I know nothing … or I didn’t know anything about Stanislavski … or about Brecht. But then I have to look for something. Then I chose something. It’s … For Macbeth. It was a scene for him. And that scene always stays with me. Until now. And I love Macbeth to now. So this was the first meeting … Between me and Macbeth.
[i] How old were you then?
[r] I was … I think I was 18 years old. 18 years. And I always remember that scene. I played that scene a lot. [Arabic] Hang out our banners on the outward walls. [Arabic] The cry is still: “They come! He said … Put all the flag in the wall. Or: Hang all the flag on the wall. They will come. Yes. They come to fight with us. But we are ready for them. We are really ready for them. So it was this scene … So interesting for me. I don’t know why. But … it always stays with me. So it’s … yes, this was the first scene for me with theater. But I don’t know. But I was eighteen. Then I took the exam. Than… Two weeks later … I have the answer. Yes, okay. You can … Study theater. And this was also a bit … Shock for me. It can’t do anything. But they say to me okay. You have a little talent. Okay, you can do theater. So after that I studied theater. And then I am so busy with theater. Then I remember a different thing in my life. It’s … I am divorced. I have two children. Two daughters. Both with their … mother. There in Iraq. Like this… I think that’s the most difficult. When I see a child on the street … here in Belgium or something … Go directly to my children. Directly… I think it might be the same with my child. It is the same age or something. I have no information about them. I have no contact with them. Within three years or three years and a half. It is an emotional war. But this is, I think, that’s the … Yes, that is the most difficult memory in my life. Because … I don’t have enough with them. I don’t have enough time with them. They were both … One was three years … And the second was a year. So actually I don’t have enough time to talk to or do something. So that’s a bit of a shame for me.
[i] Maybe all back to basics.
[i] can tell us something about Iraq and about Baghdad. Can you define that: What is Iraq, what is Baghdad?
[r] Yes. Iraq … for me it used to be … Iraq is a large country. Then I grew up and I see that Iraq is really a small country. It is not a large country. But Iraq is larger than Belgium. Belgium is so big. So small, I mean. So I remember there in Iraq or here in Iraq … For me … Yes, I really know that. It’s a difficult question, but … I love Iraq, but I am afraid of them. It is difficult to say that for some people. They say to you … You must love your country. You have to … But the problem is … All my memories about Iraq … It’s bad things. It’s war. Bad situation. Poverty. And all those things. In that period, I mean. From 1983 to now. But in the past, no. I studied a lot about Iraq. It was really a big country. It was really control over everything. That used to be. All the Sumerians, Babylon, all those people. They were the first people … In life, they really made something. Hammurabi, it’s the first person to have … The law of the rules. The first person … At life. Then when I see all those histories about Iraq and how it used to be. It’s really a bit difficult to … To see … What is the Iraq now? The country that is very bad with all that war. The country that used to be. The first country. They have people … Information. They have given people information about … how you can write. Or how you can … Do something. Such as a farm [farm] or something. Or a farms, or something. When we go back to our history. I can say, all those … Main things. It was in Iraq, in the past. It was very interesting for all those people. Everywhere, here in Europe. Or in other countries. There it is in Iraq the first place. For all those … Smart … and most beautiful things. That used to be, I mean. And I see, I have … I have a mix emotion. Inside myself. I have a mix emotion about … About our history. And what it used to be in our country. And I have … Other emotion about what is now. And then I see … From where the mistake? It is wrong of us. We destroyed the country or something. No, it’s not our fault, But … it’s wrong from people. They came from outside the city. From outside the country. And they all destroyed and all broken. Who did that. That was for me in a big question. And about Iraq, I think so. And about Baghdad. Baghdad. When you see Baghdad, It is the first city in Islamic history. It was control over everything. Baghdad was … The city of the Khalifa. Baghdad was the city of Harun Al-Rashid. And all those people, they have done a lot, a lot for the … Not just for Islamic history, no. They have done a lot for the … For all humanity. Rules, build up, Architecture and everything. All those things you can find there. The first school in history. The first university in history. It is Al-Mustansiriya. Al-Mustansiriya, It is in Baghdad. Al-Mustansiriya, It’s older than … Another university in Vienna. Older than that university in Vienna, 100 years old. What that means, that means the first people … They start writing and learning and all. They were there. They were in Iraq, in Baghdad. In that small, small city. So that little city … Really they have … Spread a lot of information to other countries. To Persia, to Turkey, to Jordan, also to Europe, or something, or something. All that information goes to all sides. Everything you see That is in Baghdad. Al-Hassan Ibn Al-Haytham, It is someone who is Islamic. It is the first person who really did something with the chemistry. Chemistry and so on. And with … Also with the numbers and so on. And those things.
[i] Can you tell something about your family? About your family, what happened to your father and mother, brothers and sisters? With other family members?
[r] in Iraq, it’s always … The system there in Iraq … We are all in a big house. But every person has a bedroom. But also … There is a toilet anyway, and so on. That means … We really always stay together. Stay together like a family. It is a different system. Like this… I grew up there. In my country. With my mother, and my sister, and my father. My father dies in 1995. A heart attack. He was work too … He worked on buildings and so on, and so on. So those things. My mother is … A housewife. My little sister … She has … A Baccalaureate Degree … Citizens’ engineer. And she has no work. And that’s a shame. That is, but yes, that’s about the situation there. And I have a brother here, in Belgium. He has been living here for twenty years. There our life, it’s really more … together. Uncle … Or aunt [aunt], and so on. All, it’s a street. And we really always go to them. They are going to us. We sit together. Atven in our house. A week or so. And we go to them and we stay with them … For a week or so. It used to be that way. Life is really more social. More… Really live together. And that is so important … For our tradition. And for our … way of life.
[i] Are you missing that?
[r] Yes. I miss that, because here … It is a different system of life. I understand everything … About the system here. But here it is a different system. Here people are more … Individual. Every person … has his life. Every person has his … structure. Every person he really has … His problem … Or are problems. And he doesn’t have time to do more together now or something. Because in this system you just have to … Do many things for the system, for work and for yourself, for building. And that is beautiful. But then you lose … The connection or communication … Between … between the family … or between the friends. Maybe you have time … Saturday or Sunday. But for some it is … they really don’t have time for Sunday or Saturday. And Sunday or Saturday … Maybe it’s good for them … To go a little to the disco dancing … Or go home to sleep. Because you really have a difficult week. So I miss that here. And I see people here … They really want … Some of them, not all in a together. And that’s for me, I see it a pity. We like a person … doesn’t matter … what do you believe. It doesn’t matter if you believe in God … Or in energy or something. Doesn’t matter. But I mean, we, like a person … that energy or the god … He made us to live together. That is within us. But then something happened … With the system or something. Then we really want … Oh no, I can’t stay that way. I really have to … I have my life, I have my only life … I have to do that. But everything is real … The normal structure for humans … used to be … and until now … It’s all together. In a city, in a place. Nobody who can live alone … For example in the mountains or something. Some people, yes. But that is really little.
[i] have you been raised religiously?
[r] Yes. I’m Muslim. I’m Shiite. In Iraq, formerly … And that’s a bit … That’s a bit difficult … to say that But … we have no problems between … Sunnis and Shiite. We are all Muslim. And… in that period, I mean during that period with Saddam Hussein … I really have no information … About who is Sunnite and who is Shiite. I have no information. It’s just, yes, Shiites or Sunnis … get married together, having together … Do many things or something. We have no information to it was our life like that. There is no difference between me, Or you, or another person. But… once… comes America, and with America always comes … Something bad. In my country, I mean. Then we have information about … No, that’s Sunnite … And that’s Shiite. You have to be afraid of Sunnite. You have to be afraid of Shiite. Yes, I am a Muslim. I’m Shiite. But my friend was Sunnite. I have no problems with him. You have a different way … from praying, or to pray. That’s his problem. That is later with God. He has to discuss that, or something. But we are friends now … And we go together or something. No. You have to be afraid of him. You have to be afraid of him. They are all bad. The other says, no … They are all bad. They make us a war. Between Sunnis or Shiites. The year … 2007 … from 2006 … to 2007. Oh my God. A lot, many, many people … death between those Stupid idea. About Sunnis and Shiites. Many people dead … and they have done nothing. Just their fault. It’s … He was born as Sunnite … And the other was born as Shiite. With his family as Shiite. That’s just your mistake. They see your identity card. Where do you come? If you go to, for example, a city like Brussels … Brussels, it’s all there Sunnite. And at work are all Shiite. So if you want to go to Brussels … to buy something … then they are in control. Back to you. And they tell you Where do you come? I’m like that. Ah, you are at work. Ah, so, you’re Shiite. Okay. And that’s with … The beautiful democracy of America. But then they say … No, we didn’t do anything. It’s your wrong. You fight between each other. No. I worked in the media for eight years. Like director. I know all those little details. About everything. What happened? Who did that? How they did that? And so, it is always … Everywhere, here in Belgium … Or in another country, it’s a bad person … And a good person. But … politics, it’s always … They really have … the big debt.
[i] Have you always felt freely in Iraq? Was all the violence not dangerous for you in the long term?
[r] It wasn’t. I remember that … On the period of … With Saddam Hussein in the past … There was no freedom. There was really no freedom. With Saddam Hussein … you can’t say anything, you can’t do anything. With Saddam Hussein … you are afraid of your friend. Because if you say something about the government … And maybe your friend said that … Against another people … Then … it’s real … you go with a big problem. So with Saddam Hussein, It was … there is no freedom. There is a freedom … To … walk the street or something. Yes, okay. But talk about the government … Talk about the situation … or conversation … About a difficult … Task in life there. No, that is forbidden. That is forbidden. I remember something … That happened to me. I was twenty … twenty years. And it was … The second year for me … To study theater. So we were … Always after class … in the evening go to … a beautiful street there in Baghdad … for walking or something. And then back home. Like this. On those in the evening … We are back to … To the … bus stop. Me and my friend. And then we see someone he was really … So scared. Without shoes or something. And he really runs … so fast. And he walks … next to us … In another place. Oh, what’s that? Then we see two men behind him. They walk … but they look for him. They really didn’t find anything. Then my friend. He was a bit the good person. Then I say to him … yes, I’ve seen him. He’s there. Then both two men stop … And look at me and at him. And then he says … That’s against me. You are that person. You are that person he is walking now. I say to him … I have my clothes … from the … From the school … For theater. It used to be … White shirt with blue pants. And the other man … he was really … Bad clothes or something. I am someone … With shoes or something. He says to me … No, that’s you. I am the person who was walking. What do you say? I was really so scared. I was twenty years old … And we have a lot of information … About … the prison … in the period with Saddam Hussein. What happened there? How is it bad? Then I remember … oh my God! What will I happen to me there? What I want? I was almost … Vienna. Vienna, say to him: Please I really have nothing … that’s not me. See, that’s my identity card. I study there. He says to me … SHH SHH. Come, come, come. Then takes me. And we walk. Then he sees there … Another man. And the other man he was higher than them. He was in the police, But he was higher. Officer or something. In English. Then he says to me … Sir, We got it … We found him. That’s it. But that person was a bit . .. that’s from God. He was really a good person. Then he says to them . .. what do you say? That person, it’s the same. That person he was walking. You are so stupid. You are so … you are so young. And you have beautiful clothes or something. The other was so bad. And it was older than him. You really so stupid. And then he says to me … Okay, I’m going home. Oh my God. I back home and I say … this is the last time. I stay together. And this is the last time … When I see someone walking or something Try to say something. No, I’ll … just stop. And just walk to another place. So this is freedom in the period of Saddam Hussein. After, the freedom with the America. 2003. That was a different species. There is freedom to … talk about the situation. Okay, it’s no problem. Or you can say That person is bad. That person is bad. The minister is bad. The president is bad. Yes, you can. It’s no problem. But … then, Americans they make … Some groups such as a militia. Militia, it’s … Or Militia [militia]. It’s a group of people, They have weapons and such. Then, those people … if you try to talk about them … or you say, those militia … or that … Sunnis Militia, They are bad. Than… You can find your head. Or if you say, another militia … another religion or something. It’s the same. Or if you try to write … On Facebook. Like a journalist about the government. And they are so bad. Or you really have proof … From what they do. Then you lose your head too. So they say, it’s freedom. And I was work in media. And we know when they say, no. It’s freedom. And our channels it’s freedom … And we can really … What we want to say. But that’s not true. For example, if I want something … write. A program or something. That information goes to the … Great minister … in Iraq. And he has to call that minister … to our channel and say … okay, I can do that or not. And then they send information for us from the minister about what we want to say. Or which program we need … use or not. So that’s the truth. But … on media or on the street … We say it’s freedom. Yes, it’s nothing. But that’s not true.
[i] Can you tell us what the reason gave until your departure?
[r] Sorry, what do you mean?
[i] So you worked for television and something happened there that your life was in danger and you were ultimately having to flee. Can you tell what happened?
[r] Yes. It was in … 2015. In 2015 … I worked with … With the police … to do a program. And that program was … About … The police take some people, some or certain people. And we tried to make an interview with them. About … what … have … Or what did they do or something. Or what happened to them. Or why … they are terrorists. Well, those people … Normally … or logical … They were from Daesh, from Isis, or from al-Qaeda … Or another militia.
[i] And then nothing was changed?
[r] It was the intention for the program to show people … the government. They are really that strong. The government. She controls everything. The government. Their hand everywhere. And they take all the criminals. Well, that was the idea of ​​the program. To let the people … Show the audience, the viewer. No, the government takes everything. Yes, there is existing … splinter bomb there, Or splinter bomb there. But it’s okay. We will all suits them. But it is necessary a little time. It’s a bit patient, that’s it. Well, that was really the idea … of the program. Like this… We have to … director … and cameraman … Just director and cameraman go to the police. And the police, they always have a special look to interview. And it was someone else, He makes the interview. He is a journalist. So, cameraman, me … and someone … he makes the interview. And it’s just … Always a special car … from the government … And really a special … also place. Always a special place. It’s not normal prison or something. Because those people are so dangerous … And so, everything they say … They really have a … Always a special place to sit there or something. So we were always in a different place … in another … Another … prison, but a special prison for people like a terrorist. So we make a lot of interview with them … about what they did … What they want … why they did that. For example, someone of them has … A hundred person … dead… How do you say that in Dutch?
[i] shot?
[r] Yes, shot. Someone has … Fifty shot, or so. Has shot fifty people. So, so. It was really always … and… A dangerous … Dangerous people. Like this… Once I was there … And anyway it’s normal, We have to make an interview and so on. So then … I found a friend there. He works like a police officer there. And he said to me … How is it, all right and all those things. He said to me … [name], your work in media. So real … you… must… Give the truth to the people. For the audience. I say to him … That is our work. We always work with the truth. We are really that strong … To show people all those … All those things … Than he says to me … no, That’s not true. For example… This program now what you did … There is a lot … criminal. They really are not a criminal, they are bad left. I say to him … what do you say, what do you mean? He says to me Okay, come with me. I’ll prove you. Maybe you can see that evidence. And give that evidence to your boss or something. And… Really, it’s … It is a big problem for some people. I say to him, okay, Just show me. Then he gives me … Many photos … and videos and stuff … About people … The police take their … wrong. And they didn’t do anything. But those people … Or that person … is just, he has no … Family, or he was … Really … from a poor family. They can’t do anything, they can’t be a lawyer … bring, or something. And then the police … Takes him up … And … that person intimidates … and hits him too much, to say what they want. To let that person say, yes … I am a terrorist, I did that, I did that. But… In reality, that person did nothing. And then he gives me … a story about a person. He was … Twenty, I think so. Or twenty -one, Or twenty -three. But he was really like that … Within twenty, or something. And that person did nothing. Simply, the name of that person … He was for a different name. And exactly, it’s not just … his name. It is the surname … of that person. It’s the same … Family name for someone terrorist. And the police … want that person. Just his last name. The police take him … On a … place or a city, it was there … A lot of war, and a lot … Problems. Then the police thought … oh, yes, Maybe that’s a brother of his. Of that terrorist. That person said to him … No, that’s just the family name. That person, the terrorist … I don’t know him anything, I have no relationship with him. Or he’s not my brother or something. No, she said to him … No, it’s your brother, From the surname. It’s the same. You are a liar. They have him … Hung, so … On the wall. For ten days. Without food, or something. And just with succeeding … And with the electricity … For his body. To let him say, yes, I am … the brother of that … terrorist. But that person is really not his brother. So he can’t do anything. After that … one week, or ten days, I think so … the family of that person … Comes to the … Police spot … or police station, And says to them … That’s the information … That’s the paper, that’s the … Identity card, that is all that information. Our son … it’s really not that … What you think. And he is not the brother of that terrorist. Then the police say … Yes, okay, that’s true. Okay, leave him away. Okay, leave him away. They open … Him from hand like that. They open his hand. But what happened? Both two hands … and I have the photo with me, both two hands … they were so … red and so … blue. But what happened to them? It happened … cancer. Because the hands stay that way … and the blood stays that way … and after a week … It happened with both two hands … for that boy, cancer. Then he goes to the Hospital. Then the Hospital says to him … We really have to … both … Hands for you … we have to … amputation. Amputation, both two hands … We have to both amputate both of them. Or … the cancer goes to all your body. Choose. So they both amputated two hands. For a boy twenty years. Just the name it was … Not correct name. I all have that information … given to my boss. Then the government sees that … then the government what they have done. They make an interview with that person. I mean, that person … Without hands. And she … say to him … The minister of … from Iraq. Sorry son. That is really what happened to you. So … yes, such a shame. But we will … Policeman … what they did that with you. We will … resign with them. And we will see, who did that or something. And for you, it’s … Yes, you are now free or something. And we really say sorry for you. Okay, thank you. And that is the interview … on TV. In our channel. I see that and I was … almost … Almost angry and almost … Laugh about what is that. Is that … eh … Comedia dell’arte? Is that Molière? It’s … black, But laugh too. It is black and white. They make an interview … on TV and they say that person … It’s sorry about what happened to you. But that person … Without two hands. He can’t do anything, he can’t … work, he can’t do anything. And they don’t give him money … To do something or something. Just sorry and that’s it. So easier. Sorry … before we … had … your two hands and … Amputation or something. That’s it. For me it was really that bad. For me. That was so big. I have with the other information to my boss. My boss says to me no, that’s not right. You are someone bad. You are someone … A … an enemy. You are an enemy against the government. You are someone so bad. You work in others … to land. You work with Turkish, you work with Saudi Arabic. Or you are really that bad. So she really makes a different story. Then, the first. The Iraqi channel … Intimidates me. And then I dismisses me. And then three days later … The police picks me up … And isolates me for three days. Many successes and a lot of intimidation. And then … Will it be splinter bomb … stopped at my car. Or placed. In that period … the bomb explodes, There is a lot of damage in my home. Enzo. My family is threatened and my family asks me to leave. Because they think … Well really, it’s like that … Dangerous for you. You really have to leave. Then I left. In 2015. In August.
[i] How did you leave?
[r] No. With a false passport. Because … I was scared when I left with my passport. Because I thought … yes, maybe the government … they have information about me. And maybe the government now … They give my name to the … Airport. To the airport. And they may say to them … Yes, that person really has to … Just stay here. In Iraq. I was really so scared. And my friend says to me … Is … or there is so much information. About your situation. It’s so dangerous. Your boss really has an information. Or a certain … How do you say that … Dismissal or making papers about you. And he sends those papers to the government. You are really so dangerous. And you make problems like that. And you work with … The Iraqi channel. It is the government channel. So that means … You really have something … done larger. So you really have to … Try to leave. That’s it. I work there … In the boss’s desk. Then it was just … Or I just have to … I have one solution. I have to leave with a false passport. False passport, false name. And so. That’s just that. It was dangerous to try everything with my name. Then I did that with a false passport to Turkey. And then … From Turkey to Greece. And then … With all those long … travel. Greece to Serbia. Or no, Greece to Macedonia, To Serbia, to Hungary, to … Austria [Austria], To Germany … And to Belgium.
[i] when you left, When something happened to your family then
[r] in that period it had happened something else. But … that information … maybe, It’s a bit … intense for me. And I just gave that information … For certain people. Or so. After … I left … Or after … After the police come to my house … And look for me … And they look for me there. And it was there … Just my sister, the other sister. The big one. Then she really has a … Quarrel with them, or something. About why they want that, why they do that. And they destroy all the house. They are looking there. And about me … Things, my computer. Or so. And then one of the police beat her … With that … With those weapons. I don’t know how you say that. In Dutch. In her head. And later … in the house, after … She really has a problem in her head. My mother … Takes her to the hospital. And it was really just a … I don’t know how you say that in Dutch. A blood stays in her.
[i] brain haemorrhage.
[r] Yes. Yes. Yes. And then she is after … Almost three days or so dead. So that was … Really the fierce thing happened for me. And in that period … my family they have nothing … Said for me about … that’s it. Because I was just … In that period … when the police arrived, I was on the way. Like this. But the family, they were really … threatened about me. Then they have those problems with my sister. And my sister dead. And they were really afraid of saying that to me. To maybe I’ll go back or something. So, they said that after … After a month or so. Or two months, I don’t know. Well, this was real … the fierce things, That happened to me and my situation like that.
[i] And if something like that happens there, Have you become angry or …
[r] I was … I was angry with myself. I was angry with myself. I was angry with myself, because … I was angry with myself, because … I did that. I have that … Problems made for my family. I was angry more of myself. I was really like that … to be a doubt. Is that correct? What did I do? Is that correct? To try, to someone … To help … but then you get problems. Is that correct? But… I was always … so doubt. I was really angry with myself more than the government or something. I was certainly angry of them, but I was always in doubt … To see what I did. Is that correct or not correct? It was perhaps the … really the biggest question in my head. What happened to my family and with me? Maybe that’s my fault. That’s my fault. But then I see … But what should I do then? I just have to look at another person … They really have more difficult situations … Then me. And just … chilling. I have my salary … 2000. I have my car. I have my house. But another person, They lose their lives for nothing. Is that … Is that what I want to do? So I was really doubt between both decisions. To just do what I want. As the government want to chill. I have my salary. I have my car. I really have a good life. That’s it. Or … no. I try to do something else for other people. To give other people a different chance. But… I don’t know. That is back to me a big problem. I thought … that’s just I would do something like a person. But… I thought yes … it’s just like that. Like a person. You have to do something to another person. But I didn’t know that. I would really get a problem or something. I didn’t know that.
[i] then you are in Belgium arrived How was that for you, coming here?
[r] But can I do the jacket? Because I feel warm. Can I do the jacket? Yes. Now it’s okay. Yes.
[i] You arrived in Belgium, You went to Brussels you are here 8 years old, what have you done in the meantime?
[r] I will let us know. But anyway, it’s a lot of information … in my performance. It is a lot of information about me. About what happened to me. I really try to do something. In order not to provide the same information with the interview. Because the people they want the information there … In my performance. More… Yes. As you want. For example, I mean … my way. It’s on the way. I mean … when am I … left. With a false passport to Turkey. And then I am there … In Turkey. Then it was really difficult too. We have to walk in the evening. In the forest, it was forest. It was really that dark. And we really have to walk a lot. To find the place … when or where … the boat comes. There is a boat. And we all have to sit in the boat. We were there … really almost … 100 people or so. And we walked together. And it was a bit … so as in … In a place with forest … with stone. And it’s in small mountains and such. And they were with us … an old woman. And that old woman … It was really difficult … For her … to … To follow us. Because many of us we were young and such. And they really have to walk so fast. Or walk that fast. Because we are all afraid of the police. If the police take us … then … We really go into trouble. Then I have a different situation. It’s the same for people … It was really an old woman. It was … almost 50 or 60 years old. And she was always last. But the smuggler … Or all the smuggler, they don’t wait for the other person. If you are young, if you have energy, you have to do that. You are old or something, That’s your problem. Yes, I get money from you. Or something, but … When we start walking … When we start so … Then it is always done. Then it is always so difficult for her for the woman. Then I helped her. I told the boy there, I really don’t know anyone. Just a person. I say to him … hey you, none of you is husband and he can help the woman. You all think about yourself. You just want there really … Going to the boat and without that woman. Then I helped her. She’s like that with me … and I help her so … And I really try to wear with her … between the stone, Between the mountains … And go downstairs, … Until the boat. That was really so difficult for me. Then I was scared and the police picked me up and I was also in doubt in between I can help her … or should I really like the people to walk to the boat. But I helped her. We are really sleeping in the forest for a night. Then in the morning the boat comes. We were in the boat. It was a big boat. But we were in the boat … All those hundred or so … More than a hundred. Then to Greece … And in Greece … Then I am to … Macedonia. Macedonia walk. With all those people there. Then from Macedonia … We had taken the train … via Macedonia … then via Serbia … then in Serbia … and then via Serbia … to Hungary … And then in Hungary. That was really the most difficult place for me. Oh my God. In Hungary, in Hungary’s train station. I was almost there with 2000 or 3000 refugees. In the train station.
[i] In which city are you?
[r] It is in Budapest, I think so. I think so It’s Budapest. The train station, but not in the center. It’s a bit … far from the center, Far from that center. We were there … At the train station … All refugees. They wait there … Maybe … they can take the train to … Germany or something. But in that period … Something had happened. If you have … heard or something. It was a van … From Hungary … To Germany. And in that van … were almost 20 people, Family and children. But that van it is closed. All those 20 people are dead. Because there is no air or something. Than what happened? The Hungary says … We will really … the border … Between Hungary and … and Austria stop. And the Austria says … Okay, we will do that. And nobody can go to Europe. And all those people stayed there in the … train station. That was the hardest for me. Because in the train station … There is no place to sleep. There is no place to eat something … or something. I don’t have a lot of money. You just have to go to the McDonald’s. To try to make something small sandwich or something. And I was there almost 7 days. 7 days … I have there … Really … not slept. 7 days. Because … I just have pants … And a jacket. And all my clothes, they are all thrown away. And…
[i] were you in a panic?
[r] No, it was with me. But between Serbia and Hungary … That is another difficult situation. Between Serbia and Hungary … the police are coming … and the police just grab me and with three people. I was walking … Or walk in the forest. And then sleep there in the forest, when the police throw away. And the police have all … The group with me … picked up. Or pack. Except me and three with me. A woman and two men. So I have everything to lose. All my suitcase or something. I really just have my pants … and my …
[i] have you been arrested or not arrested?
[r] No, not arrested.
[i] and your things?
[r] there on the street or on the forest. Yes, left behind. I left everything behind. I have left all my things in the forest. Because I was really so scared. The police take me. And in Hungary … and in Hungary it was really that bad … the situation for the refugees. So bad. We all know that. It was really that bad. I was scared. I left everything. All my suitcases and such. Then I went to Budapest to that … train station. Then I have to wait for a chance … On chance … to take. And then I can go to … another country. For example Belgium. Or someone else. Or Finland. Or so. But there was just one solution. If I want to go to Austria … And … I try to let the police … Or … I just try not to be a refugee. Someone else. I need nice clothes. I need really nice clothes. When you walk … On the street … in Hungary or … In Austria or something. Then the police look at you. If they see that you have bad clothes … Then they think you are a refugee or something. Then she takes you. Maybe they will send you to your country or something. I was really afraid of those things. So I thought … it’s just a solution. I have now … a nice … Pants and a nice shirt. Like this… There is no hotel or something. All those people sleep on the street or in the park. But I thought if I do that if they and I try to sleep … in the garage or something. Then my clothes really go so dirty like that. And that’s not good for me. For my next … Journey. So what to do … then okay. I think the solution. I have two friends with me there. I have meet them there. They sleep, but I am so … for seven days. I never slept seven days. Really and truly. If I remember that … than I think, well, is that normal? I never slept seven days. Or if I slept I slept like that. It’s just for the reason … I have beautiful clothes … and I have to go with my beautiful clothes to Austria. To try … Not like … the refugees are. And I try to really have another person … Just to give … another information for the police. So that was the most difficult … situation in my journey [travel] … Between Turkey and such. Once… To Austria … after seven days … and after that a train ticket.
[i] Was the border open again?
[r] Yes. It is not open, but it is just a different way or something. Because the border, it was always stopping But there are really a different way. A small street or something between Hungary and Austria anyway. That was true.
[i] The border was open in the beginning?
[r] It was just the smallest street in the evening … and it is … Depending on about you whether you are right or not. So it was real, it was just trying. You have to do something You have to try it. But maybe the police take you, maybe not. It’s just dependent on you, if you’re lucky or not.
[i] Happiness. [] Yes, happiness or not. Like this. Than… Unpleasant… from Austria to Germany, train ticket, and then to Belgium. The first time it was … to Brussels-North. I see the large buildings there in Brussels-North. All those large buildings. And then I went to my brother here and stayed with him. And after I went to Brussels for the Commissariat. For my paper … or my … finger voice [fingerprint] or something.
[i] […]
[r] It was the first … The first interview. It was difficult The first interview. The problem is, the Commissariat … But that is their right too. They want … Really a lot of information about you, what happened to you. Or … if you really have a difficult situation or not. I understand that one hundred percent. I understand that. It’s normal for their work. But they want some … It is really a small detail. A small detail about different things. It happened to you on the road or in your country. And the problem if you have a difficult situation … and you have trauma or something. You can’t remember everything. Or if you have said something … In the first interview. And then you forget it in the second interview. That is a big problem for you. And then they give you negative. But that is not normal. When you make a first interview … for example… In June. Or 2017. For example. Then maybe you wait for the second interview. Six months. Or nine months. Or eight months. Then you really have to say the same thing you said in the first interview again … After six months or nine months. Nine months. For example, you live here for some people a shelter. You get nothing. Life in a shelter is so difficult. With different people. From different countries. Real. It is a difficult situation. But… You really have to remember everything. You are like a computer, not a human. All those little details. What did you say. You said that way. The number. The year. And the so and the like that. For me I see it, it was really that difficult. If someone has happened to him so big, you can’t remember everything. No. You remember certain things, but not everything. Maybe you say that … or you are trying to say that now … but later … You forget everything. That’s normal. We are not a computer. We are a human.
[i] and finally, after how much time did you get papers?
[r] After a year and half … a year and a half … I was just a year and a half wait. Waiting, waiting, waiting. Nothing. In those a year and a half I saw my life as someone in the fridge. I leave you in the fridge and you are in the fridge with the ice. And you wait. Your life has stopped. A year and a half. I can’t do anything. Some people say to you: No, you have to go to Dutch [lesson]. Or learn the language. Or try … to adjust with the system. But… Is that logical? I wait for my paper. And I don’t know. If they say to me … you can stay here. Or you can stay here. Or they say to me … No, you can’t stay here. You go to your country. And I have to go to … The Dutch lesson. And I try Learn Dutch. And all those things. Is that normal? No. It was for me, This is not normal. Because you are … Between … you can stay here or you have to go back to your country or another country. Then why I go to the … Dutch lesson. Or we try to do something else. And it’s the same. Life in the center. Because after I was with my brother just for a period, I went to the center. Life in the center, It is something else too.
[i] […]
[r] you know, it’s something in life for the … refugees. Or for the newcomers. The life for the newcomers, It is always like a staircase. Step by step. Step by step. The first step … is just waiting for the paper. And when you get your paper? And you hope, and you wish … To get paper. Then … if that step … When you have that step, you have to go to a different step. What is the other step? The other step you have to … Learning the language. Place to rent. And that is so difficult. And you try to adjust a new life. In what way does not matter. Which way, that’s not my problem. You just have to adjust. Learning and adjusting language. That is your job now. Then you see you really have a different problems. You have the paper now. But now you have other problems. How can I … to adjust? How can I do that? And the language … How can I do that in the period? And … always check, Always appointment there. What happened? What are you doing? The problem is, some people when I go to Facebook … And I see some racist reaction, but I understand them about … The refugees they came here to get our money … or… They take our job or something. Please. Please go to the VDAB website. Just one click. And see how much work in the VDAB. How much chance for work in the VDAB. If you want to work, there is work. But some people, They don’t want to do everything. They just want exactly things. Oh, I have that degree I just have to do that. Or I will chill. And also with the refugees. There are people, really they came here to work. They came to build a new life here. Not just to get money … 800 euros. You pay 600 for the house and then you stay 200. And you have to eat those 200 and do everything. Nobody wants that. Really and truly. Nobody. Just people, they really have a psychological problem. We must understand that. It is not about refugees or normal people. So, I was happy to get my paper. But, I know, there is another step for me. A new life here. How can I do that? That was really … The other step … to… To yes … To wait with life or something.
[i] […]
[r] Until now it is … For me … for some people … for me, until now it’s good. I always work with the artists. And the artists, many of them, they don’t really have a racist response or something. No. We work together like a diversity. I always work with the artists … Such as a director or an actor. And I get the chance to do that. I do my best for that. I do my best to adjust. I do my best to … To learn the language. I do my best for everything. So, but some … I see it, it’s a shame. When I see many reactions … From racists … On Facebook or something. Or certain places there or there with me, I mean. Then … sorry, but … But then it really gives me a … A bad feeling. Just a bad feeling. For I see myself, I do my best. I do my best to do everything. I really don’t want to earn money for nothing. I don’t want anything … Manipulating the system or something. No, I just want … have a new life. And just continue with my new life. And I try to really do something. Not just for me. I see myself … I am now … a part of the community. A particle of Flanders or something. Then I really have to do good things for the community. For the people here. I believe in that. When you live in a country, You really have to do something for that country. Now it’s your country.
[i] Do you still have a lot of contact with your family?
[r] Yes, I really try to make contact. Always with my family. I try that. Because that’s the link. The link for me to … To keep surviving. So I always try to call them. Via Viber or something. It is difficult for some for the internet and the situation there. But yes. I have always had contact with them.
[i] There are sometimes people who no longer have a family […]
[r] Yes, yes, yes. Yes, that’s something else. That’s something else, but … It’s …
[i] without family is it not the same?
[r] No, no. It was … It was a workshop with boys in Bornem for me. About refugees. And about their situation. Those guys have no information. They simply have information about media refugees and so on. They have no contact in Bornem. With the refugees. I mean… Eh … Than… I said something to them. Do you know something? If you try to walk on the street. And in that street or in that city you really have nobody. You don’t have a family. And you walk … there … In period on … Christmas. On the New Year. And then you look at … at the houses. And you see that people are all sitting there. With their family to eat something. Or to do something. With the cold weather. With the snow or something. Do you know what that feeling is for you? And you are alone. You are just looking at them. That was really for me … It is a small feeling for them. Let that feel that. Nobody … you have … the flight chosen. The flight, it’s not a choice. The flight, it’s not a choice. The emigration, it’s a choice. The emigration, you go for the economic situation in a different life … to get something. But flight, it’s not a choice. The flight, it is mandatory. The flight, it’s something … Come to your life and tell you … you have to do that. You have no other solution. When I see my life used to be … I have my salary 2000. I have my car, I have my house, I have everything. Now I have nothing. Now I am like a child. I have to learn the language. I have to adjust that. I have to try to find work. It’s not with my degree. It is not with my diploma. But yes, I have no other solution. Is that easy? No, that’s difficult. And then, you have no contact for your family. You are here alone. If you are sick or something. It’s really something else. Some people don’t understand that. They say, no, no, yes. They came here to do that or something. Yes, yes. No, no, really. I see it with many people. But it’s just, you have no other choice. That’s it. You just have a choice.
[i] Is it difficult to make contact with Belgian people?
[r] I have Flemish and I have Arabic. It’s just the system here. It’s different. Here in Belgium … The Belgians are a bit closed. And in Belgium it is a bit … Time needed. To trust you. Or to try to make a relationship with you. It’s not easy for them. That’s their system. I understand that one hundred percent. But with our system … Or in our country, no. We are really more open. Okay, hi, how are you? Are you okay? We might be able to drink food or something. But the Belgians, needed a little time. It’s just, they have a different system. That’s it. It is difficult for some people. It is also difficult for me to make contact with them. But… I understand their system. Their life system. It’s just different. It’s not bad or good. But it’s just different. You really have to wait a little and be patient. And then maybe you get one or two friends or something. But with Arabic, no. It’s just, hi, how is it? Okay, we’re going to drink or something.
[i] And contacts with girls? Is that difficult?
[r] Here in Belgium?
[i] For a relationship?
[r] For a relationship, But you mean by … With which girls exactly.
[i] […] For me, I have one Belgium girlfriend now. She is with me, she lives with me. And she is from West Flanders. She doesn’t speak Dutch, She speaks West Flemish. No, Dutch. But… I see that it is not difficult to make contact with a girl. Because I see it with another friend or something. It’s just … If you are a good person, If you have a really good … A good … spirit or something, or soul, Then you can really make contact With different people, both as girls or … men or something. As I see, it’s not difficult. It’s just, you have to be social And you really have to … Just stay like you. Open, talk and such With different people. And then you get it anyway.
[i] Is it important to find a partner here?
[r] For me, I see it, it’s so important. For me. Because it’s … For me, I really used to live with my family. And with my ex too. We were with my family. So … for me, the family is so important. So important. I can’t live alone. The first day for me, With my new studio, I was alone. I had done everything All those mobilia [furniture] and such. Then real It was a difficult moment. It was in the evening. I had a big … window. Windows?
[i] window. Then I looked and it was real … Like this… Silence. There is nothing … The building there, where I live, It’s really that silence. Then I see myself between four walls. Only. Then I thought, oh no, [name]. What are we going to do here? For your entire life there is between the four walls and none of your family or something. Yes, my brother lives in other cities, but it’s so far and he has his family and I can’t always do it with him. That was really so difficult for me. To think, I will be here alone, without anyone. Or without anyone I can talk to him. But yes, I am happy. I have my girlfriend with me. And we are always together.
[i] Feel that what happened in Iraq is still very bothering you in your life now, or can you give it a place In the process of processing the trauma.
[r] It is …
[i] How do you look at that?
[r] It is always, so. Well, it is always. It is always staying, Both two things. The communication with your family, and you lose that. And you loss To see them or something. Yes, there is an existing internet, Or something, you can just call, Or something, but it remains … it is not like in life, or something. And also, what happened to you, you lose everything, You lose your work, you lose your job, you lose your position there, and you lose everything, and then You have to go back again To build everything. From zero. Like this. That’s always a bit A bit difficult and it gives me stress, always. I am 36 years old What should I do now? Did I do everything there, now I have to do that here? Is that logical, is that so? And that is also about the person, because here Many friends of mine, Flemish friends, or something, they say Against me okay [name], what happened, that happened, let it all behind you, and just, go. Full in your life. It is really easier to say that. It’s beautiful. It is a beautiful feeling. But I try to do that. Can I do that? Can I try to do something with you So big, he has really changed your life. And then you say, yes, it’s okay, it’s over. I will do something else. Well, that was always a bit … I don’t see it normal. Because I can’t It’s not in luggage, It is not in bag, in my back. And then I will throw that bag away and say, okay, You are now without my bag. No. It stays within you. All those … All that information, all those things that happened to you It has remained with you. Do you know something? In that period, three years and a half in Belgium, Always, every evening, When I go to my bed, And I try to to sleep, always, my dream, It was over my country, And about my situation there. Every day. And that was really for me A bit weird. Because I live here now, and I am working on theater, and of different things. And, and, and, I mean, during the day, from the morning until evening, I really have no information or not a reminder about my situation There, because I’m just busy with my life. But when do I go to the bed, To sleep, Then, I always dream about my country. About my situation there, About my work, about my family, or something. Always, every day. Like this, I don’t know why But I really have a little information about psychology, or something. Because we studied that at University. That memory, it stays in your brain, But during the day, that memory, it is between four walls, Or between a door, And it’s just stops there, And they have no other place, To walk, Or to walk. Just stay in that space. But when you, Or when do you go, To sleep, that memory, The door of them open, and then they come to your dream. That means they are really within you, always, but, she use their energy, or use them their, how do you say that, I want to say, [I want to say,] It is like, they … They really … Only in the night they have the time, or they have … the right … to go out from your body and then really you go with them. So they have really the strong, the strong … The strong … time or the strong energy … only in the night.
[i] What does theater mean to you?
[r] Theater. Theater is my life. Theater is really my life, theater. Theater, It’s the place where I feel I am really a person, where I feel, I’m really one person, who has A great power, or a great power, and he can do something different. I believe in theater I can do something else. I believe in theater I can something good For the people, I believe in that. I always work with the problems of the community, I always work for solutions To be found for a difficult situation. Theater for me, It’s really my life. I feel there. I feel there, on stage.
[i] Have you also done a lot of autobiographical theater so far?
[r] What do you mean?
[i] based on your own life.
[r] Yes, yes, yes, sure. Yes, yes, yes. It is always … theater, It is two types. There is a … A theater …
[i] wait a minute, I’m going to replace material okay.
[i] So you said: there are two types of theater?
[r] Yes. There is two types of theater. It’s … The first, you can really inspire your life, or what happened to you, or from the other person. And then you can make theater a piece about that, about a situation, or about something that happened to you. And there are in theater … No, you can just go In a small piece of Shakespeare, van Molière, or from Ibsen, or something. And then you choose that piece, And maybe you try to do that piece, and you try to do different adjust things Between the piece about the situation, or something. I believe more in theater that is really possible come from your own experience, comes from your own inspiration, What happened to you. For example, I have a piece made, it is Dreams without wings. I really don’t have this piece just from my experience, From experience of newcomers. They have a difficult situation here. What happened to them after The flight here, in Belgium? They all have a dream. But what has become with their dream? I was really always looking for my dream too, what happened to me here, And also to their dream, and what happened to them here. Then I made that piece To show the people here, What is our dream, and what we want, And what happened to our dream. Theater for me, it’s more Inspire your life and the life of another person. That’s more …
[i] Do you have a favorite …, you have already said something about other theater makers.
[r] Yes, Shakespeare for Macbeth.
[i] Do you have another favorite quote or poetry or a piece or something?
[r] I am more a fan of Macbeth, For Shakespeare, But I love from the school, or from the theater school of Bertolt Brecht. Bertolt Brecht, he works a way to Show people What happened in their community, And he also tries to discuss with them, To really do something for their community. I love that way, I love Bertolt Brecht, and his way of working, he really has different pieces, until now I have I really don’t have With the piece of Bertolt Brecht worked, but … Yes, but I love his way, his way of working with communication, with the audience, to try not to find a solution, but try people to think a bit about a solution to their problems. Politics, economic, another, climate problems, what we want to do. You really have to think a bit. Something has happened, yes. So, in that way I see Bertolt Brecht, it’s really that person, who gives me a lot of inspiration. He really gives me He gives me a lot of inspiration.
[i] Do you have a sentence or something, A quote from your own piece?
[r] from me. I have different pieces like that, because here I have done several pieces with different organizations, With Kunstz, with Madame Fortuna, WIPCOOP with Arenberg, here, And another too, organization. Like this, I remember something of my piece of dreams without wings, And I wrote that for another actor. And I also have a reflection or a reference between Shakespeare from Hamlet. “It’s to be Or not to be, That is the question. I thought I thought that I thought I was … ” Ah, I forget that. It was a text for me, I wrote that in Arabic, but then translated into English. “To be or not to be, that’s the question. I thought, I thought, I can do that a person That was I was a human Can I dream without restriction. But I discovered that, that dreaming does not exist Without a high price. That is something of dreams without wings and it is another too. It’s a text I say something about Because it was in English for me. I wrote that too.
[i] you can do it in English
[r] Yes It’s in English, I Escape From A Place Where I was Nothing. I was just a number. Number was media Transmit Every Day or Numbers of People They dying like Numbers. And my number Was thousand and one. Do you know what that mean? That Mean I will be the next following The Alphabet and the Scheduler Or The Angel of Death. The Angel of Death. The Angel of Death Who was work only in our city. In Our City Dream is Burned But they are burned Like the Autumn Leaves. Do you know from Where? Or from who? This is the Question. So, it is longest talk here [This was a longer piece] But I Try To … [but I tried …]
[i] a few questions concluded.
[r] It’s a problem. I don’t have much time. I have to meet [name] to Three hours thirty -six in Central Station. It is now three hours, I think so.
[i] OK. Maybe a bit of a philosophical question. Okay, okay.
[i] What is it like to be a refugee?
[r] Oh. Yes, that’s a big question. How is it To be a refugee? I’m here. I back to Hamlet and say to be or not to be. That is the question. But what does it mean to be or not to be? To be a refugee or to be a human? That is the question. And what is the difference between a refugee and a person? That is also another question. To be a refugee, For me it is really another level in my life. It’s a different level in my life To try to just try to think no, I am not a refugee. I am a human. A person has a dream. A person really has good heart To do something for another people or other people. Then you get something else. Like this. Refugees does not exist. Refugees, That’s real, we have that Create that word. But no, that doesn’t exist. It’s just a human being, he has a difficult situation and he comes to another place. And the most beautiful is a newcomers. A newcomers is a new person in a different place. And we are all newcomers in life. Newcomers, like a child born here in this country. Or newcomers, such as a child born here in another country. We live in life. We are newcomers. That’s what I see. We are all real newcomers, But in a different situation. That’s it.
[i] Very beautiful. I have any questions, but …
[r] No, it’s okay. If you have one or two questions, it’s okay. When I see it is three hours and I have to go to the central. The central is not that far from here.
[i] there is anything else you want to say That you haven’t said yet? Important.
[r] About what? I am now I think so Or I want something to say I am happy now With my new life here, in Belgium. I’m working on theater. Like a director, Or like an actor, Or a workshop, or something. I have the chance to work With different organizations. I have the chance to build up myself again. I really want be grateful For all those people, who helped me in that period. All those people, have Give something small for me. Like a word, or like a Support, do that [name]. Okay, it will come. I see it now, it really grew up. It grew up. I mean, I live here for one year and a half, or three years and a half. I only live one year and a half. I try to learn Dutch. Just one year and a half. But, I really did a lot in the one year and a half. I have done almost five or six performances. For me like a director. And certain, like an actor. I now have my performances, I am [name], I will play that show everywhere, here. I have another project, With Pax Christi, Flanders. Like an actor. Eh … about refugees, I have that piece. Eh … Played with them everywhere in Flanders. I now have another chance, a big chance, to work together With the theater maker. With that beautiful woman. [name] She really gave me a good chance. And that was for me … I’m really whole … Very happy and very happy to get that in that small period, In a year and a half. To work together with all those different organizations. And now with that big project with RITCS. With Theater Antigone, With Jos Verbist, and all. That’s for me. It’s really something I have to be grateful. Be grateful for God, and be grateful for all those people. They trust me And they believe me. And I will do my best to do that in a good way. And hopefully, and if That’s possible, I’ll really Find my place here. In the community, in the theater landscape of Flanders. Or the Flemish theater landscape. Or like an artist. I will do my best for that, and hopefully I can get it or something.