SU_A_29

[i] Hello.

[r] Hello.

Welcome, can you tell us what your name is?

[r] My name is [name] .

[i] [name] ?

[r] Yes

[i] [name] , where are you from?

[r] I’m from Somalia, so I’m from Somalia.

[i] You are from Somalia.

[r] Yes

[i] Okay. Where in Somalia did you live?

[r] I was born in Baidoa. That is the capital of Southwestern Somalia. And I grew up there. So yes, that’s where I lived.

[i] Okay, can you also tell who your parents are?

[r] Yes, my father is dead, but his name was [name] . And my mother’s name is [name] .

[i] How many siblings do you have?

[r] I have two: One sister and one brother.

[i] Do they live in Somalia, or are they also in Belgium?

[r] Actually one of them, I have just discovered, lives somewhere in North America. And my sister lives in Somalia, with my mother.

[i] With your mother, so they are still in Somalia?

[r] Yes

So you’re the only one who lives here?

[r] Yes.

[i] How long has it been since you have seen your sister or mother or brother?

[r] Yes, the last time I saw my mother was actually when I was still living in Somalia. And that was in 2015, about the end of February.

[i] Was it hard for you to leave them behind? How did you feel when you left?

[r] Yes, it always feels bad to leave your family behind. Especially if you’ve lived with it all your life. Yes, it was actually very hard, but I had to do it, I had no other choice.

[i] So, how old are you now?

[r] I’m 27 years old now.

[i] Did you go to school in Somalia?

[r] Yes, I went to Baidoa Model School, in Baidoa.

[i] Okay, and how many years did you go to school there?

[r] I went to school there from 2003 to 2010.

[i] Which way did you go there? What did they teach you at school?

[r] Yes, it’s actually like a normal school. It’s like the system there where you first go to primary school and then to secondary school.

[i] Same as in Belgium?

[r] I can’t say it’s the same system, but it looks like it. First you have 3 or 4 years of primary school, then you go to middle school, and then to secondary school. It was that way.

[i] And did you have many friends there?

[r] Yes, I didn’t have many, but I did have friends there.

[i] Ah, you had friends.

[r] Yes.

[i] Okay. And in your spare time or when you went somewhere, what did you do with your friends?

[r] I was, and still am, a fan of football games. We played football ourselves and watched matches together.

[i] And sometimes we did fitness too.

[r] We had made a place just like in a gym. Everything that was there was made by us. It was like cement or something we mixed, so it was a handmade fitness.

[i] Handmade?

[r] Yes. Okay, so creative! So they didn’t have a place like the Basic-Fit here, or somewhere you could go for a workout?

[i] You had to make one yourself?

[r] Not at the time we started. Now that I’m here I hear on the news or through some friends with whom I chat on the internet… I ask them if they have a fitness there, and then they say yes they have one, but not as good as here. It’s better than the one we had at the time. Then there were no real places to work out. We saw it on the television or somewhere else and then we created them just like there. And I even saw it from the Ethiopian troops that lived there and some still live there, to ensure the safety of Somalia. So some of those military groups did fitness and I saw it with them. We tried to recreate it and so we did.

[i] Okay, even the troops… You and your friends saw that the troops found a creative way to create their own weights that would allow them to lift weights? And then you did that?

[r] Yes, and actually, we were afraid to ask them. For the sake of the city and because they were there, and we weren’t allowed to go to them and we didn’t speak the same language. But sometimes you can see from the back that they do those things. And that gives you ideas. Things we saw of them we mixed with something we added. I’m still sure we didn’t lift the same size of weights, but yes.

[i] So the military troops, were they all over the street? Can you describe to me what they did every day when you saw them? What were they doing… What were they doing on the street?

[r] Uh, it was during different time periods. There was a time when they just lived there, happy and worry-free. But the same period, about a year later when al-Shabaab became stronger than they were. And they spread all over the city. It was difficult for them to question and believe the societies in the city. Before that, they were friends with the people who lived in the city. And they walked the streets like a normal person. But after that, when things changed, they were always in their trucks when they crossed the road. So it was a different time. The time I’m talking about now is when they were a little more open than after that.

[i] What was your father’s profession? What job did he do before he died?

[r] Yes, my father actually did a lot of things. Like 30 years ago, he was a policeman. After the conflict in Somalia started, he also had an import and export business. And then he had an accident, something that paralysed him completely. He was also a barber at one point. So he did a lot of things.

[i] A what?

[r] A barber, um barber.

[i] Oh, a barber, yes. You say he had an accident, what kind of accident was that?

[r] He had an accident when he was a businessman in import and export. And he then went from one city to another to buy and sell products in the city. So he had to travel a lot in a bus or a truck.

[i] Was he driving?

[r] No, he wasn’t driving. He had to travel a lot by truck, so how should I put it… The truck had an accident and he was involved.

[i] And your mother, what was her profession? What did she do, or what is she still doing as a job?

[r] My mother also did several small things like selling something in front of your house. Or sewing something. She bought thread on the market and sewed things with it and then sold it. She made baskets. She did that kind of thing, yes.

[i] Does she still do that?

[r] No. Because now nobody buys that anymore.

[i] Were you raised religiously? What religion do you follow?

[r] I am Muslim, only Muslim.

[i] So in the household you grew up as a Muslim. Can you tell us what traditions you had? Or what were the norms and values you were taught in the household?

[r] From Muslims?

[i] Yes.

[r] Yes, like everyone who was born in Somalia, the general and only religion is islam. From the moment you are about 5 years old, you start… Because you see your father praying, who practices islam. Your mother too, your brothers, sisters, everyone from the family and surroundings. From the age of five you start going to school. I mean the Koran school. In Somalia you first have to go to the Koran school for a year. And then after a year there you can go to a regular school where you learn something different, like other subjects. So you… I don’t know how to explain it. It’s something I was born with and I’ve never seen another religion or other things about religions, only Islam.

[i] Were there traditions, Somali traditions you grew up with? Or other traditions, for example… I don’t know what traditions you have in a Somali household.

[r] What were the most important traditions everyone had to follow?

[i] What is the most important tradition for you that your mother or father has given you?

[r] Who they have given to me and whom I have promised never to forget? Yes, I left Somalia about 4 years ago. So before that I was always in Somalia. Everything about religion and traditions has automatically come deep into me. Because there were no other religions or traditions in our environment. So I’ve always had those religions and traditions from the beginning, when I grew up there. And of the things I have now and take with me, the most important and first and foremost is religion. And secondly, your traditions. And at the same time I think they are very similar. When you leave your traditions, you also leave your faith. And if you keep your traditions, you keep your faith. That’s true for me. That’s all I can say.

[i] Can you tell us one value that your mother or father has given us? Of which they said, “It’s good that you remember this value. Or some kind of tradition, what is it? Can you give us an example of one of the values you grew up with?

[r] There are many things, but what I can say is… My mom, when we talk on the phone now, always advises me to be peaceful with others. And that I have to contain my anger when something happens. And that I must not forget where I come from. Where I come from and how I grew up. And what has shaped me, every time I talk to her.

[i] How do you feel about that when your mother says those things? Those values, don’t forget where you come from. How do you interpret that for yourself, how do you feel about it?

[r] Yes, I feel that even if she wouldn’t say that anymore, I would still carry it around. Because she has told me several times already. Even how I saw myself, inside here. Because when I first got here, I was nowhere else. And when I saw people from different countries and continents living together. And everyone who sticks to his religion, tradition or things they do. Sometimes that’s what makes you complete in your own thing. In a good way, not to hurt others, in a good way. Not to forget your roots, and what you were doing. But I mean in a good way.

[i] So you’re okay with the fact that you’re getting to know other cultures here now? The place where you live now. And it makes you feel good that you also have your own culture that makes you happy?

[r] Yes, yes.

[i] Have you ever worked in Somalia?

[r] Yes, I worked as a sports journalist in Somalia.

[i] A sports journalist?

[r] Yes.

[i] Can you explain more about that?

[r] Yes, as I said before, I was actively involved in sports. When it comes to sports in Somalia, football always comes first. And from about 2011, 2012, it was the period I was talking about, when I started making the fitness myself and so on. And I got more involved in football; going there to watch. And there were seminars, when the city was even better. There were organisations that settled in the city and were looking for young people to train them to be journalists or something. I was involved in sports, so I had that training, a seminar. So I became a journalist, specialized in sports to protect myself, not to get into the problems that were there then. So I was advised to work for the radio to talk about football.

[i] So you were talking about football or other sports?

[r] Yes, usually football, 90% was about football. Only if there was a big boxing match would I mention it. But it was about football more than 90% of the time.

[i] Soccer from Somalia, or also from abroad?

[r] Somali football, but mostly also from outside.

[i] And which teams are involved?

[r] Like the English Premier League, the Spanish La Liga, the German Bundesliga, and so on. I, I, I, when I was talking about the city or the teams, I had no idea what the study would look like. Everything was like a dream for me. I talked a lot about them, but sometimes I thought that this kind of people or study didn’t even exist. But I did talk about it then, yes.

[i] For you, it was unbelievable?

Yes, it was like an imagination to me. Just like in a fantasy movie, like Harry Potter for example. You can never really watch it and think about it, but in your imagination you can. For me, that was true.

[i] So you reported on the radio about how the match went. You talked about the match?

[r] Yes I talked about the match, and I even talked about the transfer market. When a club buys or sells a player, how everything went. Which teams were good. So yes, I had a 1-hour program. From 13h to 14h in the afternoon. And that was 5 days a week, so that was good.

[i] So you worked 5 days a week?

[r] Yes, I was working then, and just before that, I was programming my program. Then I’d come up with it, adjust it a little, and finish it off. And then, in the afternoon, I started looking up things on the Internet and Google. To see what the latest news was about football. And then I translated it into the Somali language. Somali, my language, which is spoken in that area. Yes, I, I, the next day I prepared my programme.

[i] What was the situation at home? At the time, what was the situation? What was the normal way of doing things in the household? That was okay, what everyone had to do or was expected to do? Just the situation at home, can you tell us more about that?

[r] Yes, I can tell you more about the city where I lived. What was normal was that everyone got up every morning to go to work. And I think or remember that everyone worked at least 10 hours a day. So they left early in the morning and came back at sunset. And the children went to the school or to the dugsi, the Koran school. And here it is done in the mosques. Many of these things were normal for the people. These are the things that come to mind when I think of them.

[i] So everyone is expected to do something? Going to work, or going to school?

[r] Yes.

[i] But the government, did the people have the support of the government at that time? To go to work or financial support or health care? Is there a system that supports the people, that supports the inhabitants of Baidoa?

[r] No, actually everyone was just doing their own thing. The biggest thing was that most of the people who went to work got up every day to go to work. 80% of them went to work to earn what they could eat that day. Just for that day. So there was no support whatsoever from any organization or government.

[i] So even the work they did, they had… If someone has a job, does that person get a contract? Or how do they do it, or how does it go when they say: Okay, I have a job for you? So what’s the deal they make? Is it on paper, or a verbal agreement?

[r] It used to be a daily routine,

[r] where you got up in the morning and looked for a job for that day. When I was at work, I found someone with a truck filled with products that he had to take to a certain place. He asked me if I was unemployed that day, when I said “yes”, and then I was allowed to go to work that day. And then, sometimes, you can’t imagine, the employer gave you money, and the employee wouldn’t accept it because he didn’t think it was enough. While the other one thought it was too much, so it was complicated, yes. There were jobs, like what I did on the radio, which was even without a contract or anything else. I started working there, and then I got my monthly salary. There was only a contract if you worked there for one or two years. I worked there for about two years.

[i] Can you tell us more about your house? Can you describe to us your house in Somalia? What does it look like?

[r] When it comes to my house, I may say some words wrong in English. Our house was not made of stone. Like where we are here, we call it stone. It was made of something that was not cheap, but as I said, it is difficult for me to explain in English. Or in any other language actually.

[i] From what is it made, from iron?

[r] No, it comes from the trees.

A tree?

Yes, and it was made of trees. We still used wood from the trees. And something else I don’t know the name of.

[i] Like the traditional houses?

[r] No not the traditional houses, but something of iron. It was an iron thing we call ginkat. I don’t know how to say that in English.

So it was made of wood and iron? It looks silver?

[r] Yes, it is silver, and it gets very hot when the sun shines on it.

[i] So made of iron, and do they use it for the house, the big plates? And then it is supported by wood?

[r] With wood yes.

[i] So from the roof to the ground it is made of wood, and then they cover it with iron?

[r] And then we had another house. We actually had four rooms in our house. Three of them were as I just explained, and the other one was a… Mutul, as we call it. It stands this way, and at the top it is triangular. So on the roof there is grass. It was grass, but on the inside it was very fresh. That was our relaxation area.

[i] That was the most traditional house you can see in Somalia. Was club life important to you? When you lived in Somalia, were you in some kind of association? Like in a community, like the communities they have here. Were you in a certain community in Somalia?

[r] No, I don’t remember anything about the community. All I remember is that when something happened, it was always the elderly who solved everything.

[i] The older people?

[r] The elderly yes.

[i] The special people who…

[r] Yes, if there was something wrong, the elderly would solve it. There wasn’t really a community, or anything that forced us to do anything important together in the city. There wasn’t, I can’t remember.

[i] What was the reason you fled Somalia?

[r] Yes, as I said before, I worked as a sports journalist in Somalia. I chose that job to be out of sight of politics. By being a journalist. And even that wasn’t safe, because my radio programme had a lot of fans. Around noon, at 1 p.m., a lot of young people listened to the radio. They were so interested in the programme. Around that time, the boss of the Somali branch of al-Shabaab was there, in Baidoa I mean. Two years before, before I worked there, they controlled the whole city. When they left, the period came when the organisations came, which tried to train young people to get rid of these radical ideas. I was one of those young people who took that advantage to become a journalist. So after my programme went well, after one to one and a half years, almost two years. Then they found out that my programme was not good for the youth, they said. Because I was investigating a number of Western matters, they said. That was the reason, and I didn’t expect that at all. I thought I was safe as a sportsman, and I don’t have any problems with anyone. But it didn’t work out that way.

[i] So al-Shabaab did have the power then? They had the power to control the city where you lived?

[r] In 2009 they had the power. But then the Ethiopian troops, the Amisom, came with their rulers. And they were sent out of the city. But they still remained there. Because when you are an ordinary citizen, like me, I go to my house, I work, I help my family. And I don’t have a gun, so I can’t resist. The Al-Shabaab troops always have something like… They worked, and still do, as if you don’t understand what they are doing to you. You don’t know who’s with al-Shabaab, or who isn’t. If they want something from you, you have to stop for them. Otherwise you have a big problem.

[i] How do they warn people? Because you say that you don’t know who is in al-Shabaab. Because don’t they wear a special uniform or something? You can’t immediately know who’s in al-Shabaab. But how do they know who is in al-Shabaab? How do they contact you? How do they know you, and how do they know what you do, and so on?

How they contact you is easy: They find your phone number and call you like an unknown number. And if you don’t pick up the phone, they will send you a message. And you can’t ignore that.

[i] And did you get a message from them?

[r] I actually got a message from them. But I didn’t want to answer it. At that time, as I said, my father was ill. I was expecting a call from outside, my aunt or something. And when you receive a call from abroad in Somalia, you usually see ‘unknown number’ or ‘private number’ appear. That’s how I answered their call. And they told me to stop what I was doing. I asked: What do I do? And then they said that I was deceiving the youth. And I asked: How do I do that? Because I don’t do anything to anyone, I don’t say bad things about you. And then they said that I was worse than that. And I asked, How? They said that I changed the thoughts, the way of thinking of the youth. By hearing how you tell about the western countries. How they tell disabled people that they play football and how they lie naked in the grass. Yes and just that… Sometimes it happened that, just for fun, your friend or someone else calls you and pretends to be from al-Shabaab. To do an area with you, to make a joke. Afterwards they say: I had you, I scared you. At first I thought it was something like that, but then they said: We’re serious, we warn you not to do that! I said I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong.

[i] How does that make you feel?

[r] It… it… At that time, I felt angry. To them. But I was not satisfied with the answer I gave after the phone call. I tried to contact them, but I couldn’t, there was no number.

[i] You felt angry because?

[r] Yes, I felt angry at first, but after the conversation they told me that I would find their answer. After the conversation, I was very scared. I didn’t know what to do, I even tried to call them back. But I couldn’t because there was no number.

[i] So when you were scared, what was the next thing you did?

[r] Nothing really. I couldn’t even tell my family because my father was sick then. And my mother who… Just like all women can’t handle some things. Everyone also knows how serious they are (al-Shabaab). It was a very bad experience.

[i] You didn’t want your parents to worry about you?

[r] Yes indeed, especially when there is a war and there is nothing you can do about it, that makes the worries worse.

[i] Did you continue as a sports journalist?

[r] No, I stopped for a week. I told one of my best friends, with whom I used to do a lot together. I told him about the incident that they called me. He said: Why don’t you stop what they asked you to do? I said: There are two reasons why I can’t stop. First, I don’t have another job, and I have to take care of my family. And secondly, we can at least say that we can change the way young people think. Like they said, but I told them I wasn’t doing anything wrong. I don’t see it that way. But the thing was, he was one of them too, without me knowing it. He belonged to Al-Shabaab? Yes he was one of Al-Shabaab. Yes, and I didn’t know that. How did you find out? It was more difficult afterwards. During that time they warned the people, as I said. If people didn’t do what they asked, then they had two options: That they kill a person at the moment he is seen. And the other was to kidnap someone. By blindfolding them and taking them away. When they take someone with them, two things happen: First of all, they will investigate exactly what that person is doing. Then they can do whatever they want, release him or do what their court says. If their court decides that you have to be slaughtered, it will be done in no time. So there were two options. Then came the time they tried to kidnap me and luckily… I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it was at that time that I found out that my friend was involved. And I really didn’t expect it.

[i] I hear you’re talking about a court. So they have their own special court?

[r] Yes, that’s a special court, at least that’s what they say. They have their own book there and say they are going to look into it. And then they look at what you have done and how many warnings you have received. And how you reacted to that. All in all, they give you a punishment. And that’s what you get.

[i] And after that, what was the next step you took?

[r] The next step in that time was that I could escape. And then I went to Mogadishu. And then, after Mogadishu, the aunt I mentioned earlier also came to Mogadishu. Luckily she was able to help me to take care of my affairs. Because my mother asked her to help me with that. So I couldn’t go back to Somalia. Or stay in Mogadishu, because they have the ability to do what they want throughout Somalia. So I couldn’t live there anymore.

[i] So you have an aunt who lives in Mogadishu?

[r] Not in Mogadishu, but my aunt lived in several Arab countries. But in that time she returned to Mogadishu, to visit people or to arrange things for herself.

[i] So she arranged the flight of the route you had to take? How did she organize that, what did she do exactly?

[r] I was not the only one who left Somalia for al-Shabaab. There were many others. The only solution for that person was to leave Somalia. There were also some people who made money to help them leave Somalia. What do you call them, people smugglers?

[i] Human traffickers, yes.

[r] And she (aunt) contacted such a person. She actually arranged everything. A month after I arrived in Mogadishu, I could actually leave.

[i] How much did they cost exactly? The people smugglers, how much did you have to pay?

[r] How much did my aunt pay? I didn’t really know beforehand, but after that I was told. At first it seemed that the man would do anything you wanted. She told me that the man would do anything I asked. If there was anything, I could just ask him. He was a very friendly man. If my aunt had a few questions, he would answer them immediately. He reassured me: “You will be able to leave, don’t worry. I think it was about €9000 to Austria.

[i] Did you have the chance to say goodbye to your mother, father and sister?

[r] No, no.

[i] You didn’t have the chance?

[r] No, no, I didn’t see my father again because he died when I was in that difficult situation. I could only talk to my mother on the phone.

[i] So you had to say on the phone that you left?

[r] Yes, but I didn’t really have to say goodbye, because we talked to each other on the phone a lot. And my aunt always talked to her too. I called her as often as I could, even during the period I was travelling.

[i] How did you escape Somalia?

[r] By plane, from Mogadishu to Turkey.

[i] From Mogadishu to Turkey?

[r] Yes.

[i] Was the smuggler with you the whole time?

[r] He was with me the first time. He was with me the first time, but after that he wasn’t with me anymore. Always, except for the last part. Sometimes I was all alone, but sometimes also with others who were in the same situation as me. We were actually a group.

[i] So the smugglers accompanied a group of people? You weren’t alone, there were others who wanted to flee Somalia? So they took all the people in a group at the same time?

[r] Yes.

[i] How did your flight go? How did you feel when the plane took off in Mogadishu, and was on its way to Turkey? What did you feel at that moment?

[r] I felt relieved and sad at the same time. Relieved because I was safe, and sad because I had left everything behind.

So you were lonely then, you felt alone?

Yes, of course.

[i] You arrived in Turkey, how long did you stay there? Where were you staying and with whom?

It was with the man who said that I would stay with him until the end of the journey, in Europe. So when I arrived in Turkey with that group, he took us to a house where there were already other Somali groups. So I stayed there for one month with my group.

[i] So everything was arranged? Everything was included in the €9000?

[r] Yes, everything. I didn’t have to ask for a refund either, because I had no reason to.

[i] Did you know where you were going, what your destination was? In which country would you end up? Did you know that?

[r] I had a friend who already lived here, in Belgium. Who had left one year before me. We were in contact and he told me to come to Belgium, that it was a good country to live in.

[i] If someone has a job, does that person get a contract? Or how do they do it, or how does it work when they say: Okay, I have a job for you? So what’s the deal they make? Is it on paper, or a verbal agreement?

[r] It used to be a daily routine, where you got up in the morning and looked for a job for that day. When I was at work, I found someone with a truck filled with products that he had to take to a certain place. He asked me if I was unemployed that day, when I said “yes,” and then I was allowed to go to work that day. And then, sometimes, you can’t imagine, the employer gave you money, and the employee wouldn’t accept it because he didn’t think it was enough. While the other one thought it was too much, so it was complicated, yes. There were jobs, like what I did on the radio, which was even without a contract or anything else. I started working there, and then I got my monthly salary. There was only a contract if you worked there for one or two years. I worked there for about two years.

[i] Can you tell us more about your house? Can you describe to us your house in Somalia? What does it look like?

[r] When it comes to my house, I may say some words wrong in English. Our house was not made of stone. Like where we are here, we call it stone. It was made of something that was not cheap, but as I said, it is difficult for me to explain in English. Or in any other language actually.

[i] From what is it made, from iron?

[r] No, it comes from the trees.

A tree?

Yes, and it was made of trees. We still used wood from the trees. And something else I don’t know the name of.

[i] Like the traditional houses?

[r] No not the traditional houses, but something of iron. It was an iron thing we call ginkat. I don’t know how to say that in English.

So it was made of wood and iron? It looks silver?

[r] Yes, it is silver, and it gets very hot when the sun shines on it.

[i] So made of iron, and do they use it for the house, the big plates? And then it is supported by wood?

[r] With wood yes.

[i] So from the roof to the ground it is made of wood, and then they cover it with iron?

[r] And then we had another house. We actually had four rooms in our house. Three of them were as I just explained, and the other one was a… Mutul, as we call it. It stands this way, and at the top it is triangular. So on the roof there is grass. It was grass, but on the inside it was very fresh. That was our relaxation area.

[i] That was the most traditional house you can see in Somalia. Was club life important to you? When you lived in Somalia, were you in some kind of association? Like in a community, like the communities they have here. Were you in a certain community in Somalia?

[r] No, I don’t remember anything about the community. All I remember is that when something happened, it was always the elderly who solved everything.

[i] The older people?

[r] The elderly yes.

[i] The special people who…

[r] Yes, if there was something wrong, the elderly would solve it. There wasn’t really a community, or anything that forced us to do anything important together in the city. There wasn’t, I can’t remember.

[i] What was the reason you fled Somalia?

[r] Yes, as I said before, I worked as a sports journalist in Somalia. I chose that job to be out of sight of politics. By being a journalist. And even that wasn’t safe, because my radio programme had a lot of fans. Around noon, at 1 p.m., a lot of young people listened to the radio. They were so interested in the programme. Around that time, the boss of the Somali branch of al-Shabaab was there, in Baidoa I mean. Two years before, before I worked there, they controlled the whole city. When they left, the period came when the organisations came, which tried to train young people to get rid of these radical ideas. I was one of those young people who took that advantage to become a journalist. So after my programme went well, after one to one and a half years, almost two years. Then they found out that my programme was not good for the youth, they said. Because I was investigating a number of Western matters, they said. That was the reason, and I didn’t expect that at all. I thought I was safe as a sportsman, and I don’t have any problems with anyone. But it didn’t work out that way.

[i] So al-Shabaab did have the power then? They had the power to control the city where you lived?

[r] In 2009 they had the power. But then the Ethiopian troops, the Amisom, came with their rulers. And they were sent out of the city. But they still remained there. Because when you are an ordinary citizen, like me, I go to my house, I work, I help my family. And I don’t have a gun, so I can’t resist. The Al-Shabaab troops always have something like… They worked, and still do, as if you don’t understand what they are doing to you. You don’t know who’s with al-Shabaab, or who isn’t. If they want something from you, you have to stop for them. Otherwise you have a big problem.

[i] How do they warn people? Because you say that you don’t know who is in al-Shabaab. Because don’t they wear a special uniform or something? You can’t immediately know who’s in al-Shabaab. But how do they know who is in al-Shabaab? How do they contact you? How do they know you, and how do they know what you do, and so on?

How they contact you is easy: They find your phone number and call you like an unknown number. And if you don’t pick up the phone, they will send you a message. And you can’t ignore that.

[i] And did you get a message from them?

[r] I actually got a message from them. But I didn’t want to answer it. At that time, as I said, my father was ill. I was expecting a call from outside, my aunt or something. And when you receive a call from abroad in Somalia, you usually see ‘unknown number’ or ‘private number’ appear. That’s how I answered their call. And they told me to stop what I was doing. I asked: What do I do? And then they said that I was deceiving the youth. And I asked: How do I do that? Because I don’t do anything to anyone, I don’t say bad things about you. And then they said that I was worse than that. And I asked, How? They said that I changed the thoughts, the way of thinking of the youth. By hearing how you tell about the western countries. How they tell disabled people that they play football and how they lie naked in the grass. Yes and just that… Sometimes it happened that, just for fun, your friend or someone else calls you and pretends to be from al-Shabaab. To do an area with you, to make a joke. Afterwards they say: I had you, I scared you. At first I thought it was something like that, but then they said: We’re serious, we warn you not to do that! I said I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong.

[i] How does that make you feel?

[r] It… it… At that time, I felt angry. To them. But I was not satisfied with the answer I gave after the phone call. I tried to contact them, but I couldn’t, there was no number.

[i] You felt angry because?

[r] Yes, I felt angry at first, but after the conversation they told me that I would find their answer. After the conversation, I was very scared. I didn’t know what to do, I even tried to call them back. But I couldn’t because there was no number.

[i] So when you were scared, what was the next thing you did?

[r] Nothing really. I couldn’t even tell my family because my father was sick then. And my mother who… Just like all women can’t handle some things. Everyone also knows how serious they are (al-Shabaab). It was a very bad experience.

[i] You didn’t want your parents to worry about you?

[r] Yes indeed, especially when there is a war and there is nothing you can do about it, that makes the worries worse.

[i] Did you continue as a sports journalist?

[r] No, I stopped for a week. I told one of my best friends, with whom I used to do a lot together. I told him about the incident that they called me. He said: Why don’t you stop what they asked you to do? I said: There are two reasons why I can’t stop. First, I don’t have another job, and I have to take care of my family. And secondly, we can at least say that we can change the way young people think. Like they said, but I told them I wasn’t doing anything wrong. I don’t see it that way. But the thing was, he was one of them too, without me knowing it.

[i] He belonged to al-Shabaab?

Yes he was one of the al-Shabaab. Yes and I didn’t know that.

[i] How did you find out?

[r] It was more difficult afterwards. In that period they warned the people, as I said. If the people didn’t do what they asked, then they had two options: That they killed a person the moment he was seen. And the other was to kidnap someone. By blindfolding them and taking them away. When they take someone with them, two things happen: First of all, they will investigate exactly what that person is doing. Then they can do whatever they want, release him or do what their court says. If their court decides that you have to be slaughtered, it will be done in no time. So there were two options. Then came the time they tried to kidnap me and luckily… I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it was at that time that I found out that my friend was involved. And I really didn’t expect it.

[i] I hear you’re talking about a court. So they have their own special court?

[r] Yes, that’s a special court, at least that’s what they say. They have their own book there and say they are going to look into it. And then they look at what you have done and how many warnings you have received. And how you reacted to that. All in all, they give you a punishment. And that’s what you get.

[i] And after that, what was the next step you took?

[r] The next step in that time was that I could escape. And then I went to Mogadishu. And then, after Mogadishu, the aunt I mentioned earlier also came to Mogadishu. Luckily she was able to help me to take care of my affairs. Because my mother asked her to help me with that. So I couldn’t go back to Somalia. Or stay in Mogadishu, because they have the ability to do what they want throughout Somalia. So I couldn’t live there anymore.

[i] So you have an aunt who lives in Mogadishu?

[r] Not in Mogadishu, but my aunt lived in several Arab countries. But in that time she returned to Mogadishu, to visit people or to arrange things for herself.

[i] So she arranged the flight of the route you had to take? How did she organize that, what did she do exactly?

[r] I was not the only one who left Somalia for al-Shabaab. There were many others. The only solution for that person was to leave Somalia. There were also some people who made money to help them leave Somalia. What do you call them, people smugglers?

[i] Human traffickers, yes.

[r] And she (aunt) contacted such a person. She actually arranged everything. A month after I arrived in Mogadishu, I could actually leave.

[i] How much did they cost exactly? The people smugglers, how much did you have to pay?

[r] How much did my aunt pay? I didn’t really know beforehand, but after that I was told. At first it seemed that the man would do anything you wanted. She told me that the man would do anything I asked. If there was anything, I could just ask him. He was a very friendly man. If my aunt had a few questions, he would answer them immediately. He reassured me: “You will be able to leave, don’t worry. I think it was about €9000 to Austria.

[i] Did you have the chance to say goodbye to your mother, father and sister?

[r] No, no.

[i] You didn’t have the chance?

[r] No, no, I didn’t see my father again because he died when I was in that difficult situation. I could only talk to my mother on the phone.

[i] So you had to say on the phone that you left?

[r] Yes, but I didn’t really have to say goodbye, because we talked to each other on the phone a lot. And my aunt always talked to her too. I called her as often as I could, even during the period I was travelling.

[i] How did you escape Somalia?

[r] By plane, from Mogadishu to Turkey.

[i] From Mogadishu to Turkey?

[r] Yes.

[i] Was the smuggler with you the whole time?

[r] He was with me the first time. He was with me the first time, but after that he wasn’t with me anymore. Always, except for the last part. Sometimes I was all alone, but sometimes also with others who were in the same situation as me. We were actually a group.

[i] So the smugglers accompanied a group of people? You weren’t alone, there were others who wanted to flee Somalia? So they took all the people in a group at the same time?

[r] Yes.

[i] How did your flight go? How did you feel when the plane took off in Mogadishu, and was on its way to Turkey? What did you feel at that moment?

[r] I felt relieved and sad at the same time. Relieved because I was safe, and sad because I had left everything behind.

So you were lonely then, you felt alone?

Yes, of course.

[i] You arrived in Turkey, how long did you stay there? Where were you staying and with whom?

It was with the man who said that I would stay with him until the end of the journey, in Europe. So when I arrived in Turkey with that group, he took us to a house where there were already other Somali groups. So I stayed there for one month with my group.

[i] So everything was arranged? Everything was included in the €9000?

[r] Yes, everything. I didn’t have to ask for a refund either, because I had no reason to.

[i] Did you know where you were going, what your destination was? In which country would you end up? Did you know that?

[r] I had a friend who already lived here, in Belgium. Who had left one year before me. We were in contact and he told me to come to Belgium, that it was a good country to live in.

[i] If someone has a job, does that person get a contract? Or how do they do it, or how does it work when they say: Okay, I have a job for you? So what’s the deal they make? Is it on paper, or a verbal agreement?

[r] It used to be a daily routine, where you got up in the morning and looked for a job for that day. When I was at work, I found someone with a truck filled with products that he had to take to a certain place. He asked me if I was unemployed that day, when I said “yes,” and then I was allowed to go to work that day. And then, sometimes, you can’t imagine, the employer gave you money, and the employee wouldn’t accept it because he didn’t think it was enough. While the other one thought it was too much, so it was complicated, yes. There were jobs, like what I did on the radio, which was even without a contract or anything else. I started working there, and then I got my monthly salary. There was only a contract if you worked there for one or two years. I worked there for about two years.

[i] Can you tell us more about your house? Can you describe to us your house in Somalia? What does it look like?

[r] When it comes to my house, I may say some words wrong in English. Our house was not made of stone. Like where we are here, we call it stone. It was made of something that was not cheap, but as I said, it is difficult for me to explain in English. Or in any other language actually.

[i] From what is it made, from iron?

[r] No, it comes from the trees.

A tree?

Yes, and it was made of trees. We still used wood from the trees. And something else I don’t know the name of.

[i] Like the traditional houses?

[r] No not the traditional houses, but something of iron. It was an iron thing we call ginkat. I don’t know how to say that in English.

So it was made of wood and iron? It looks silver?

[r] Yes, it is silver, and it gets very hot when the sun shines on it.

[i] So made of iron, and do they use it for the house, the big plates? And then it is supported by wood?

[r] With wood yes.

[i] So from the roof to the ground it is made of wood, and then they cover it with iron?

[r] And then we had another house. We actually had four rooms in our house. Three of them were as I just explained, and the other one was a… Mutul, as we call it. It stands this way, and at the top it is triangular. So on the roof there is grass. It was grass, but on the inside it was very fresh. That was our relaxation area.

[i] That was the most traditional house you can see in Somalia. Was club life important to you? When you lived in Somalia, were you in some kind of association? Like in a community, like the communities they have here. Were you in a certain community in Somalia?

[r] No, I don’t remember anything about the community. All I remember is that when something happened, it was always the elderly who solved everything.

[i] The older people?

[r] The elderly yes.

[i] The special people who…

[r] Yes, if there was something wrong, the elderly would solve it. There wasn’t really a community, or anything that forced us to do anything important together in the city. There wasn’t, I can’t remember.

[i] What was the reason you fled Somalia?

[r] Yes, as I said before, I worked as a sports journalist in Somalia. I chose that job to be out of sight of politics. By being a journalist. And even that wasn’t safe, because my radio programme had a lot of fans. Around noon, at 1 p.m., a lot of young people listened to the radio. They were so interested in the programme. Around that time, the boss of the Somali branch of al-Shabaab was there, in Baidoa I mean. Two years before, before I worked there, they controlled the whole city. When they left, the period came when the organisations came, which tried to train young people to get rid of these radical ideas. I was one of those young people who took that advantage to become a journalist. So after my programme went well, after one to one and a half years, almost two years. Then they found out that my programme was not good for the youth, they said. Because I was investigating a number of Western matters, they said. That was the reason, and I didn’t expect that at all. I thought I was safe as a sportsman, and I don’t have any problems with anyone. But it didn’t work out that way.

[i] So al-Shabaab did have the power then? They had the power to control the city where you lived?

[r] In 2009 they had the power. But then the Ethiopian troops, the Amisom, came with their rulers. And they were sent out of the city. But they still remained there. Because when you are an ordinary citizen, like me, I go to my house, I work, I help my family. And I don’t have a gun, so I can’t resist. The Al-Shabaab troops always have something like… They worked, and still do, as if you don’t understand what they are doing to you. You don’t know who’s with al-Shabaab, or who isn’t. If they want something from you, you have to stop for them. Otherwise you have a big problem.

[i] How do they warn people? Because you say that you don’t know who is in al-Shabaab. Because don’t they wear a special uniform or something? You can’t immediately know who’s in al-Shabaab. But how do they know who is in al-Shabaab? How do they contact you? How do they know you, and how do they know what you do, and so on?

How they contact you is easy: They find your phone number and call you like an unknown number. And if you don’t pick up the phone, they will send you a message. And you can’t ignore that.

[i] And did you get a message from them?

[r] I actually got a message from them. But I didn’t want to answer it. At that time, as I said, my father was ill. I was expecting a call from outside, my aunt or something. And when you receive a call from abroad in Somalia, you usually see ‘unknown number’ or ‘private number’ appear. That’s how I answered their call. And they told me to stop what I was doing. I asked: What do I do? And then they said that I was deceiving the youth. And I asked: How do I do that? Because I don’t do anything to anyone, I don’t say bad things about you. And then they said that I was worse than that. And I asked, How? They said that I changed the thoughts, the way of thinking of the youth. By hearing how you tell about the western countries. How they tell disabled people that they play football and how they lie naked in the grass. Yes and just that… Sometimes it happened that, just for fun, your friend or someone else calls you and pretends to be from al-Shabaab. To do an area with you, to make a joke. Afterwards they say: I had you, I scared you. At first I thought it was something like that, but then they said: We’re serious, we warn you not to do that! I said I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong.

[i] How does that make you feel?

[r] It… it… At that time, I felt angry. To them. But I was not satisfied with the answer I gave after the phone call. I tried to contact them, but I couldn’t, there was no number.

[i] You felt angry because?

[r] Yes, I felt angry at first, but after the conversation they told me that I would find their answer. After the conversation, I was very scared. I didn’t know what to do, I even tried to call them back. But I couldn’t because there was no number.

[i] So when you were scared, what was the next thing you did?

[r] Nothing really. I couldn’t even tell my family because my father was sick then. And my mother who… Just like all women can’t handle some things. Everyone also knows how serious they are (al-Shabaab). It was a very bad experience.

[i] You didn’t want your parents to worry about you?

[r] Yes indeed, especially when there is a war and there is nothing you can do about it, that makes the worries worse.

[i] Did you continue as a sports journalist?

[r] No, I stopped for a week. I told one of my best friends, with whom I used to do a lot together. I told him about the incident that they called me. He said: Why don’t you stop what they asked you to do? I said: There are two reasons why I can’t stop. First, I don’t have another job, and I have to take care of my family. And secondly, we can at least say that we can change the way young people think. Like they said, but I told them I wasn’t doing anything wrong. I don’t see it that way. But the thing was, he was one of them too, without me knowing it.

[i] He belonged to al-Shabaab?

Yes he was one of the al-Shabaab. Yes and I didn’t know that.

[i] How did you find out?

[r] It was more difficult afterwards. In that period they warned the people, as I said. If the people didn’t do what they asked, then they had two options: That they killed a person the moment he was seen. And the other was to kidnap someone. By blindfolding them and taking them away. When they take someone with them, two things happen: First of all, they will investigate exactly what that person is doing. Then they can do whatever they want, release him or do what their court says. If their court decides that you have to be slaughtered, it will be done in no time. So there were two options. Then came the time they tried to kidnap me and luckily… I don’t want to go into too much detail, but it was at that time that I found out that my friend was involved. And I really didn’t expect it.

[i] I hear you’re talking about a court. So they have their own special court?

[r] Yes, that’s a special court, at least that’s what they say. They have their own book there and say they are going to look into it. And then they look at what you have done and how many warnings you have received. And how you reacted to that. All in all, they give you a punishment. And that’s what you get.

[i] And after that, what was the next step you took?

[r] The next step in that time was that I could escape. And then I went to Mogadishu. And then, after Mogadishu, the aunt I mentioned earlier also came to Mogadishu. Luckily she was able to help me to take care of my affairs. Because my mother asked her to help me with that. So I couldn’t go back to Somalia. Or stay in Mogadishu, because they have the ability to do what they want throughout Somalia. So I couldn’t live there anymore.

[i] So you have an aunt who lives in Mogadishu?

[r] Not in Mogadishu, but my aunt lived in several Arab countries. But in that time she returned to Mogadishu, to visit people or to arrange things for herself.

[i] So she arranged the flight of the route you had to take? How did she organize that, what did she do exactly?

[r] I was not the only one who left Somalia for al-Shabaab. There were many others. The only solution for that person was to leave Somalia. There were also some people who made money to help them leave Somalia. What do you call them, people smugglers?

[i] Human traffickers, yes.

[r] And she (aunt) contacted such a person. She actually arranged everything. A month after I arrived in Mogadishu, I could actually leave.

[i] How much did they cost exactly? The people smugglers, how much did you have to pay?

[r] How much did my aunt pay? I didn’t really know beforehand, but after that I was told. At first it seemed that the man would do anything you wanted. She told me that the man would do anything I asked. If there was anything, I could just ask him. He was a very friendly man. If my aunt had a few questions, he would answer them immediately. He reassured me: “You will be able to leave, don’t worry. I think it was about €9000 to Austria.

[i] Did you have the chance to say goodbye to your mother, father and sister?

[r] No, no.

[i] You didn’t have the chance?

[r] No, no, I didn’t see my father again because he died when I was in that difficult situation. I could only talk to my mother on the phone.

[i] So you had to say on the phone that you left?

[r] Yes, but I didn’t really have to say goodbye, because we talked to each other on the phone a lot. And my aunt always talked to her too. I called her as often as I could, even during the period I was travelling.

[i] How did you escape Somalia?

[r] By plane, from Mogadishu to Turkey.

[i] From Mogadishu to Turkey?

[r] Yes.

[i] Was the smuggler with you the whole time?

[r] He was with me the first time. He was with me the first time, but after that he wasn’t with me anymore. Always, except for the last part. Sometimes I was all alone, but sometimes also with others who were in the same situation as me. We were actually a group.

[i] So the smugglers accompanied a group of people? You weren’t alone, there were others who wanted to flee Somalia? So they took all the people in a group at the same time?

[r] Yes.

[i] How did your flight go? How did you feel when the plane took off in Mogadishu, and was on its way to Turkey? What did you feel at that moment?

[r] I felt relieved and sad at the same time. Relieved because I was safe, and sad because I had left everything behind.

So you were lonely then, you felt alone?

Yes, of course.

[i] You arrived in Turkey, how long did you stay there? Where were you staying and with whom?

It was with the man who said that I would stay with him until the end of the journey, in Europe. So when I arrived in Turkey with that group, he took us to a house where there were already other Somali groups. So I stayed there for one month with my group.

[i] So everything was arranged? Everything was included in the €9000?

[r] Yes, everything. I didn’t have to ask for a refund either, because I had no reason to.

[i] Did you know where you were going, what your destination was? In which country would you end up? Did you know that?

[r] I had a friend who already lived here, in Belgium. Who had left one year before me. We were in contact and he told me to come to Belgium, that it was a good country to live in.