SU_A_19

[i] Good day [name]. My name is [name]. I will be interviewing you today for the Red Star Line museum. Before I start with my questions, could you tell me a little bit about yourself? What is your name? Where are you from?
[r] Yes, of course. My name is [name]. I am from Turkey. I am a Kurd. I came to Belgium about 15 months ago. I am a refugee. I currently work in a company in Kiel, Antwerp. I am 29 years old. I graduated in law in Turkey. And that’s all.
[i] Do you have any brothers or sisters?
[r] Of course. I have three brothers. No sisters. But three brothers.
[i] And they still live in Turkey?
[r] They are in Turkey. The oldest brother works. The other brother is studying at university. The youngest brother is also studying at secondary school.
[i] And your parents are also in Turkey?
[r] Yes, my parents, my mum and dad, are in Turkey. My father works in a company, my mother doesn’t work. She stays at home.
[i] And what was the reason for your flight?
[r] The reason, yes. There is an international organisation called the Gülen movement. The Gülen movement. I was a member of that movement in Turkey. In the past, five years ago, for example, there was no problem with the government or with President Erdogan. But now Erdogan, the president, sees that movement as a terrorist organisation. So he calls us terrorists. Many people are in prison in Turkey. And many people are fleeing to other countries. I am also a refugee.
[i] And what exactly does that organisation do?
[r] That organisation advocates human rights, democracy and equality. These values are very important for Turkey. But… Because Erdogan is currently an autocrat and, in my opinion, a dictator, he doesn’t like that. So yes… And there is the leader… we can call him that. Fethullah Gülen. He lives in the United States. In Pennsylvania. He also had to flee. About 20 years ago. So yes. That is the situation.
[i] And is the organisation currently active in Turkey?
[r] Almost completely inactive. That organisation had media outlets, a television station, newspapers, magazines, schools and a few other companies. But now all of those institutions have been banned. And Erdogan got all those institutions. Now they are official institutions. So we don’t really have anything in Turkey now. But we do in Europe. There are Turkish schools in Europe too. And everywhere, really, all over the world. They are active. But not in Turkey anymore.
[i] And what do you think are the main reasons why this organisation was banned?
[r] Yes. After a while, Erdogan became an autocrat. And he did a lot of bad, criminal things, actually. For example, corruption. And in that organisation, some people were police officers, soldiers, high-ranking soldiers, prosecutors, judges. And those people did not accept that corruption. So they did their job. And they… They brought a case against Erdogan’s son. And against a few ministers. And maybe in the future against Erdogan himself. Erdogan was angry about that case. And he saw us as a terrorist organisation, a criminal organisation. That’s the reason, actually.
[i] And how many members does the organisation have?
[r] That’s a bit unclear. Because that organisation is not like a party, a political party. No identity card. No membership card, I mean. So it’s unclear. But in Turkey, approximately 200,000 people were sympathisers or active members of that organisation.
[i] And are there also members in other countries?
[r] Of course. For example, in Belgium, in Antwerp too. Everywhere. In Russia. In the US. There are Turkish schools and companies belonging to that organisation everywhere. And they work there as teachers, for example, or sometimes as doctors. So we don’t have any problems in other countries. Only in Turkey.
[i] And what are they actually doing to try to influence Erdogan?
[r] Yes. How do we work? We mainly work in the education sector. Most of our members are actually teachers. We want to change the world through education. We want more tolerance, more dialogue between different cultures and different religions. We want to build a peaceful world. That is our mission, our goal.
[i] And can we talk about your escape? Do you remember the day you decided to flee?
[r] Yes. I can’t forget that day. It’s always with me, in my mind. I was forbidden to go abroad because there was a court case against me. But it was wrong. An unfair trial. And I saw no future for myself in Turkey. Okay. I was forbidden to go abroad. But I had to do it. So I crossed the river, the border between Greece and Turkey, by boat. I went to Greece first. Illegally. It was really like an action film. It was also dangerous, also difficult. But fortunately, I was able to flee.
[i] How did you know which boat to take or which person to contact?
[r] There were about nine of us. We were all Gülenists. But we didn’t know each other before. We only got to know each other on that journey. Most of them are in Greece now, I think. I’m not in contact with them. But anyway. There was a boat. Actually, it was a smuggler. He helped [helped] us to flee.
[i] And how long did the whole flight take?
[r] The whole flight…Yes. It took about a day to get to Greece. We spent two days in a police station in Greece. But then I couldn’t get a plane in Greece. Because I was illegal. I had my passport and visa for Belgium. But I was illegal in Greece. So I couldn’t get a plane there. So first I went to Ukraine. I stayed in a hotel in Kiev for one night. Then the next day I got a plane to Brussels. So I would say it takes about four to five days to get from Turkey to Brussels.
[i] What was the difference between leaving from Greece or Ukraine?
[r] Ukraine is a special country. It doesn’t require a visa for Turkish citizens. As a Turkish citizen, I can easily travel to Ukraine with my passport without a visa. So I chose Ukraine.
[i] Yes, but I mean what is the difference between travelling from Greece or Ukraine to Belgium? Or did you have a visa for Belgium?
[r] Yes. I had my passport. I had my visa for Belgium. But I couldn’t get a flight in Turkey. That’s why I had to flee. How did I get that visa for Belgium? I was doing my Master’s degree in Turkey. And thanks to the Erasmus programme, I was entitled to a semester of study at Hasselt University. Through that programme, I applied to the Belgian consulate in Turkey and got the Belgian visa. It was okay with the visa and passport. But it wasn’t okay to travel by plane in Turkey.
[i] And is it easy for people from Turkey to get a visa for Europe?
[r] Not anymore, not easy. Because many people want to flee to Europe, European countries no longer issue visas. It used to be a little easier. But now it’s really difficult. Many people want to come here. But they can’t.
[i] And what was your original plan? To go straight to Brussels?
[r] I was tired of travelling, of the unstable situation. I wanted to find a safe country straight away and stay there. Because I had a visa for Belgium, I wanted to go there immediately and apply for asylum. So my plan was really to go to Brussels and apply there. And that’s what I did.
[i] What images did you have of Europe and Belgium when you were in Turkey?
[r] When I was in Turkey, Turkey is actually also a kind of European country. Our education is European education. Most systems in Turkey are European. So the European style, the European way of life is not so strange to us. In Turkey, in schools, at university, for example, people always say that Europe is number one. I had a very good image of Belgium in my head. And of Europe too.
[i] Do you remember how you said goodbye to your friends and family?
[r] Actually, I didn’t say goodbye. I came to Greece without saying goodbye. When I was in Greece, I called my father. And I said to my father: ‘Look. I’m in Greece now.’They didn’t know. They didn’t know. I fled, I wanted to flee. I didn’t tell them. Because they would have become a bit sensitive, emotional if I had told them. I didn’t want that. In Greece, I told them. My father understood the situation, that I had to flee. Because he was also afraid in Turkey. About me. But my mother became really emotional. She cried. But now she’s okay. No problem.
[i] And what procedures did you go through during your flight?
[r] In Brussels, you mean?
[i] Yes. Or from Greece.
[r] When I first arrived in Greece, I went to a police station. It was in a village. It was evening. I looked for the police officers. Fortunately, I found a police car. He stopped and asked me, ‘What are you doing here?’ And I spoke to him in English. I said, ‘I want to become a refugee.’ I came from Turkey. ‘And I have my passport, please, would you like to see my passport? And please, help me.’ Then they took me to the police station. I went to the police station. They wrote… They asked me a few questions. They registered me, a kind of registration. Then I had to stay there for two days. Actually, it was a cell. A cell for two days. After two days, I had a conversation with the police. It lasted about 30 minutes. I signed a paper. Then I was released. And I went outside.
[i] So the reason was because you were in Greece illegally?
[r] Illegal, yes. Via the river, via the border. Then you would be an illegal person. But if you apply for asylum, it is not a crime. Normally it is a crime. But if you are asylum seekers, it is not a crime.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your arrival in Belgium?
[r] To Belgium, yes. When I arrived at Zaventem airport, I was really tired and really stressed. Nervous. I asked the police officer: ‘I want to become a refugee. I am an asylum seeker. Please help me.’ That lady took me to an office at the airport. It was night-time. Around 11 o’clock at night. The police officer said: ‘You have to wait a day. Wait until morning.’ I stayed there at the airport that night. I slept there. On the floor? Yes. Actually, yes. There was a small thing on which I slept. And in the morning, a special police officer came. He asked me a few questions. I gave him the answers. Then I was taken to a closed centre in Steenokkerzeel. That is actually a refugee camp. I stayed there for about a month. A month, it was a closed centre. You’re not allowed to go outside. It’s like a prison. A kind of prison. During that time, I had two interviews with officials from the police headquarters. It took a really long time. Those two interviews. After a month, I got a positive decision. The right to stay in Belgium. So I was free.
[i] And what questions did they ask you?
[r] Lots of questions. Lots of questions. For example: “Why did you flee?” ‘What kind of problems did you have?“ ‘What was your profession?” And they asked questions about the Gülen movement. Yes, maybe 100 questions.
[i] And what was your first impression of Europe, of Belgium?
[r] Eh… In Greece, the first country in Europe, I didn’t like it very much, I have to say. The police officers were a bit rude. A bit… strict. But in Brussels… I have to say, yes, the police officers were really helpful. And also the employees in the closed centre, they were really helpful, polite. And they really wanted to help us. To help the asylum seekers. My first impression of Belgium was really okay. And actually, a Belgian police officer said the same thing. He said to me: ‘Greece is different. Belgium is different. You’ll see.’ He was right.
[i] After a month in the closed centre, what did you do next?
[r] After that… I have a friend in Antwerp. He is also a refugee. He was a teacher in Turkey. I came to Antwerp because he was here. He helped me rent a studio and explained things to me. So after the closed centre in Steenokkerzeel, I came to Antwerp.
[i] So your friend was actually the reason you chose Antwerp?
[r] Yes. That’s the reason.
[i] And do you remember that time, your first few months?
[r] The first month in Antwerp? Yes… I was like a baby. I didn’t know the language, Dutch. And everything was strange to me. The trams, the people, the streets, the buildings… Everything was strange. But luckily I started a language course straight away. A Dutch course at Linguapolis. So I quickly got started with the language. Yes, the first month was a time for making friends. I made a few friends in class, at the university. And our teacher was also like a friend. So the first month was actually good. It was good.
[i] And after that?
[r] And after that, yes, I quickly took the courses. From level 1 to level 5. I was always busy with the language. Dutch. After about a year, I started looking for a job. I looked at a lot of job vacancies, a lot of jobs. Eventually, I got a job. Now I work there. Now my life is a bit stable. Better than before.
[i] And how was it for you to learn Dutch?
[r] Eh… Dutch, yes. When I came to Belgium, I had no knowledge of Dutch. Zero. And I realised that language is very important. In another country, to communicate with others. I quickly started a Dutch course. I can speak a little English. And I think… I think Dutch is a bit like English. So it wasn’t that difficult, unlike French, for example. But I still had some difficulty, I must say. After a while, though, it went okay. No problems.
[i] And how many languages do you speak?
[r] I speak Turkish, Dutch and English. Actually, my English was poor because of the new language. My Dutch is now better than my English. But I can still speak English.
[i] And you said you are Kurdish, do you also speak Kurdish?
[r] Yes. That’s a different story. My mother tongue is Kurdish. My mother and father are Kurdish. But at home we only speak Turkish to each other. And most of my relatives can speak Turkish. Eh… In Turkey, the Kurdish issue is sometimes a problem. So parents want to speak Turkish with their children instead of Kurdish. So I can speak a little bit of Kurdish, but not much.
[i] And why is it so difficult to speak Kurdish?
[r] First of all, there is no Kurdish language education in Turkey. For example, we don’t have Kurdish lessons at school. There are no private schools for the Kurdish language either. And if you don’t speak Kurdish at home, you can’t learn Kurdish. The Kurdish problem is really a hundred-year-old problem in Turkey. The only official language in Turkey is Turkish. Not Arabic. There are also Arabs there. But it’s not an official language. There are many… about 20 million Kurds in Turkey. But Kurdish is not an official language.
[i] And is it true that there are many different dialects of Kurdish?
[r] That’s right. Yes. We also have different dialects in Turkey. But there is also, for example, a Syrian dialect and an Iranian dialect, which are very different from Turkish. I mean Kurdish dialect in Turkey.
[i] And can you understand, for example, if you are a Turkish Kurd, can you understand Kurds from Syria?
[r] Sometimes it’s very difficult, sometimes you can’t understand anything, but sometimes you can. A few cities in Syria are very close to Turkey. Our dialects are similar. Really, they are almost the same. But in Iraq or Iran, for example, it is a different dialect.
[i] And do your parents speak Kurdish?
[r] Yes. My parents can speak Kurdish perfectly.
[i] And with each other too?
[r] Sometimes with each other. Sometimes with their brothers or my aunts, my uncles. They speak Kurdish. But also Turkish.
[i] And what relations do you have with the Kurdish community in Antwerp?
[r] In Antwerp? Actually, I’m a bit distant from Kurdish and Turkish people in Antwerp. Eh… I am against Erdogan. But most Turkish and Kurdish people in Antwerp are pro-Erdogan. About 75% are pro-Erdogan.
[i] And refugees too?
[r] No. They are immigrants, but they are not refugees. They had no problems in Turkey. They came to Belgium just to work, for example. Eh… So I don’t want to have much contact with them.
[i] And why do you think that these people who are pro-Erdogan, why aren’t they in Turkey? And why are they in Europe?
[r] In Europe they are free. They need to realise that Erdogan is a dictator. And that the system in Turkey is not democratic. But maybe they are a bit conservative and maybe religious. So they think Erdogan is a good person. They think Erdogan is doing a lot of good things for Turks and Kurds. But I don’t know exactly why. And I find that really strange, really strange. How can people in Europe, in a democratic country, support a dictator? I can’t understand that.
[i] And do you know if the Kurdish community is large in Antwerp?
[r] It’s a bit difficult to understand who is Kurdish. Kurds from Turkey speak Turkish. So, for example, I speak to them in Turkish. I don’t know if they are Kurdish or Turkish. And that also applies to other Kurds. For example, Kurds from Iraq or Syria speak Arabic. You would think, yes, those people are Arabic. But actually they are Kurdish. That’s a bit difficult to understand. And if you don’t have much contact with them, you can’t know how many Kurds there are in Belgium. So I don’t know how large the community is.
[i] And I already asked you what you studied in Turkey?
[r] No. In Turkey, I graduated in law. After my bachelor’s degree, I started my master’s. And I started working. As a research assistant. At a university in Ankara. I spent the last 10 years in Ankara. I studied and worked in Ankara. In the capital. Eh… yes. But I couldn’t finish my master’s. Because of those problems. I had to flee to Belgium. So I couldn’t write my thesis.
[i] And do you still plan to finish your master’s degree?
[r] In the future, yes. Right now I’m working. But maybe after two years I want to do a master’s programme, master’s education.
[i] And how do you feel about living in Belgium?
[r] Yes, of course, Belgium is a democratic country. There is freedom here. That’s what I wanted to find. And I found it. I am happy in Belgium. Sometimes I can’t tolerate the cultural differences. I have to say. Sometimes it can be a little difficult to tolerate. But in most cases, it’s fine.
[i] And what are the biggest differences between you and Belgian people?
[r] Eh… Turkish people or Kurdish people in Turkey are more open. Here, Flemish people are a bit closed. They don’t really see refugees or immigrants as friends. They don’t see us as friends. I think they’re sometimes afraid of us. They keep their distance from us. And that’s difficult. It’s difficult to integrate. To learn the language. To make friends. I find that difficult.
[i] And what situations have you experienced where cultural differences were really clear?
[r] Eh… Yes. In Turkey, for example, family ties are very important. We have really large families there. And everyone knows each other. And everyone spends time together. But here I don’t find those family ties to be as strong. People are always single. The mum and dad are separated. So I don’t think that’s very proper. Not very nice.
[i] And why do you think that?
[r] Eh… In our culture, a woman must always be with her husband. A relationship lasts until the end of life. But here it’s a bit different, it lasts less. After five years, for example, people break up. And I don’t think that’s very good.
[i] Even if there are problems?
[r] In a relationship? Of course, people have problems in a relationship, men and women. But they want to solve those problems. Almost always. There’s always a solution in a relationship. Separating isn’t a solution for us. In the family and in a relationship. So it’s a bit annoying for me to see that. Those short-term relationships.
[i] And is there anything very positive that you like about Europe, the culture of Europe?
[r] Of course. The Flemish people, they really want to work. They are not lazy people, like us. I have to say that. And time. Time is very important here. In Turkey, for example, appointments… People are always late. We don’t respect other people’s time very much. But here they do. Appointments are almost always on time. And if you’re late, people don’t think that’s good. That’s very positive. Eh… And people can speak more than one language. In Turkey, most people only speak Turkish. Or Turkish and Kurdish. But here, I see that people speak English, French and sometimes Spanish too. That’s really good. I really like that.
[i] And do you still have a lot of contact with your friends and family in Turkey?
[r] Actually, I don’t have any friends left in Turkey. Because they’ve also fled to other countries. I have friends in England. In the United States. In France, in Germany. In Norway. They fled too. So I don’t really have any real friends in Turkey.
[i] So all your friends fled too?
[r] They’re refugees too.
[i] And were they Gülenists too?
[r] Gülenists. Yes. They’re Gülenists too.
[i] And are you in contact with your family?
[r] My family, yes. I talk to my family almost every day. Via WhatsApp. I can see them. They can see me. Yes. We always talk.
[i] And can you tell me a little more about the situation in Turkey? The political and social situation. What is happening now?
[r] What is happening now? Yes… everything is getting worse, every day. That government… has all the power. Especially Erdogan. The President has all the power in his hands. The media, the judiciary, the police, academia… Almost everyone is pro-Erdogan. If you’re against Erdogan, you’ll lose your job. And I did too. I also lost my job after that problem. My university, the university where I work, said: ‘No. Sorry. We can’t work with you anymore.’ And my contract was terminated. I lost my job. And now many people have lost their jobs. Yes…The dictatorship. Now Turkey is a dictatorship.
[i] And how did they know you were a member of that organisation?
[r] Eh… One of my friends told the police my name. He said, ‘That person is also a Gülenist.’’ He was… I think he was in prison. And the police, maybe, the police officers did bad things. To get names. And he had to give my name… And also the names of others to the police.
[i] And then what happened?
[r] Then one morning, two police officers came to my house. They searched the house for criminal materials. Actually, they were looking for newspapers, magazines, books by Gülen. Now such materials are criminal materials. And they found nothing. But they still took me to a cell. To prison, to the police station. I was there for five days… After five days, I defended myself against the prosecutor. I said, ‘I didn’t do anything. I’m not a criminal. I should be released.’ And I was right. I… I was released. But the trial is still ongoing. It’s still taking time.
[i] And is it really possible to send someone to prison because of a book?
[r] Yes, of course.
[i] And how do they explain that?
[r] They say that… the police, the judiciary, that person, Fethullah Gülen, is a terrorist. So his books are terrorist material. And if you read one of his books, you are also a Gülenist. Immediately a Gülenist. If you read a book, you are immediately a Gülenist. So you are also a terrorist. And straight to prison.
[i] And what are these books actually about?
[r] These books, as I said, are about human rights, democracy, perhaps true Islam… without corruption, equality for women, modern thinking, modern ideas. But Erdogan doesn’t like that. He doesn’t like it at all.
[i] So there’s nothing terrorist about them?
[r] Nothing terrorist.
[i] And then what happened?
[r] Yes, after that, after defending myself against the prosecutor, I was released. And I went to my workplace at the university. They said, “Okay. Wait a while. We’ll make a decision about you.”’ And after a week, I received a letter saying that I had lost my job. Then, I couldn’t do anything. And I moved to my own city. Diyarbakir. To my family. I lived there for about three months. After three months, I fled.
[i] And how did they explain that? The decision.
[r] Yes. I can understand them. The situation is difficult in Turkey. They are also afraid of the government. They don’t want Gülenists working at their university or in their companies. That university was a private university. Yes. They are afraid. They are afraid.
[i] And can you tell us about the impact of the whole escape on you? Looking back on your escape, what impact do you think it has had on your life now?
[r] Em… yes. It has had a big impact on me. Sometimes, almost every week, once a week, I have really bad dreams… I said my escape was like an action film. Every week I see that action movie in my sleep. The police are after me… I’m running… I’m running to Greece… and that police station in Greece. I always see those images. And the big impact is also… I no longer have any sympathy for Turkey. I never want to go back to Turkey. The bad things I experienced made me, made me have no sympathy for Turkey.
[i] Even though it’s your country of birth?
[r] Yes. It’s my country of birth. Yes, I lived there. I studied there. I worked there. All my family members are there. But I don’t want to go back to Turkey.
[i] And before this situation, did you have a positive or negative image of Turkey?
[r] Yes. I was always positive about Turkey and Turkish people. I always said: “Yes. We are brothers. Kurds and Turks are brothers.“” Turkey is a beautiful country. Compared to Syria or Iraq, for example, Turkey is a really good place to live. It is a European country. Here, the country is democratic. But I realised that this was not actually true. So I realised the realities. I could see the realities again. Or see them from zero. So…
[i] And in this situation, how were your relations with Turkish people?
[r] I was in Ankara for about 10 years. Ankara is the capital. And most people are Turkish. Turkish, not Kurdish. So my environment was Turkish. My friends, most of my friends were Turkish. I had no problems with them. But after that problem… I saw no help, I found no help from them. I mean the friends who are not Gülenists. For example, my colleagues at the university. They didn’t help me. Nothing! They also see me as a terrorist. And I really regret that! They are law graduates. They were lawyers. But… they were also against Erdogan. They weren’t pro-Erdogan. But they didn’t help me. Because they’re also afraid of Erdogan.
[i] So there were never any conflicts between you and Turkish people?
[r] No, no, no. Never! Some Kurdish people did. We have the PKK [Partiya Karkerên Kurdistanê – Kurdish Workers’ Party]. That’s also a terrorist organisation according to the Turkish government. And some Kurdish people are really pro-PKK. And they have problems with Turkish people. The nationalist Turkish people. But I wasn’t pro-PKK. I had no…almost no problem with Turkish people. Until that story……until that problem.
[i] And how did they explain that? The people who didn’t help you. Or did they just…
[r] They didn’t explain anything. They didn’t talk to me. They didn’t talk to me after that problem.
[i] How did you feel?
[r] I felt really bad. I didn’t expect that. We were together every day. We ate together. We were colleagues. And we were good friends. But I didn’t expect that.
[i] And in your mind, what could they have done to help you?
[r] First, they could have talked to me. What happened? Are you okay now? Is there anything we can do for you? Or they could have said: “Yes. We know you. You’re not a terrorist. No problem. Don’t worry about it.’ But no. They don’t say anything.
[i] And do you often think about that situation?
[r] No, no. Turkey is behind me. Eh…I don’t think about Turkey. Not about the Turkish people in Turkey. Not my colleagues. Turkey is over. I don’t look to the past. Now I look to the future. I want to improve my language skills. I want to do my own job in Belgium. I want a family here. That’s my plan. No more thoughts about Turkey.
[i] And do you plan to bring your family here?
[r] I used to want to do that. But they don’t want to come to Belgium. They’re fine in Turkey. They don’t have any problems. They’re not Gülenists. And now I think the same. Turkey is better for them. If they come to Belgium, it will be a bit more difficult for them. They’ll have to learn the language. They’ll have to make new neighbours. And new friends. And all my family is in Turkey. Without my brothers, without my daughters, my father and my mother are not doing well here.
[i] And how were your relationships with the family members who were not Gülenists?
[r] The relationship with my family members has always been good. With Gülenists and non-Gülenists alike. No problem.
[i] What did they say about your organisation? What is their opinion?
[r] Their opinion is different. Different from Erdogan’s opinion. They know that the organisation is not terrorist. Eh… they don’t think I’m a terrorist. Fortunately. That’s good. That’s family ties. That’s important.
[i] And did you have to do anything to explain it? Or did they understand it themselves?
[r] No, no. I didn’t explain anything. I didn’t explain anything to them. They know me. From my childhood. They know me. I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m not a criminal. They know that. And they believe in me. Not in Erdogan. That’s good.
[i] And yes. Do you already have any ideas about your future, for example, if you have children, how will you raise them? More with European culture or with Turkish culture? Or with Kurdish culture?
[r] Both, I think. Yes. Identity is important. But society is also important. I am a Muslim. I am an Eastern person. But I really like Western ideas, I find them very useful, very important. I have no problem with Western ideas. Or the Western lifestyle. So yes, but my children will definitely be free. They can do what they want.
[i] And in terms of religion?
[r] Sorry?
[i] In terms of religion? Will they also be Muslim, must they be?
[r] I want my children to be Muslim. But I don’t know if they will be Muslim or Christian or atheist. I don’t know. That’s up to them. Not me.
[i] So there would be no pressure?
[r] No, no. No pressure. No, no pressure.
[i] And is there anything positive about Turkey that you would like to teach your children?
[r] Yes. For example, family ties are really strong in Turkish, in Eastern culture. Eh… that’s positive. I want the family ties between me and my children to be strong. And hospitality. That’s really well known. The hospitality of Turkish people or Eastern people. That’s also positive. Of course Turkish or Kurdish people have positive qualities. Positive is positive everywhere.
[i] And now when you think of Turkey, what associations do you have? Or memories?
[r] Eh… Yes… memories. The memories with my Gülenist friends were really good. We were really friends. But unfortunately we are no longer together. Some are in prison. Some are also refugees in other countries. I am here in Belgium. I want to reunite with them in the future. At the moment, it is a bit difficult to get together. Also because of the financial situation. Also because of visa problems. But in the future, I think we will get together. I miss them. I miss those friends.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your values, what are the most important values for you, what are the most important values? And have they changed since you fled?
[r] Ah yes. When I was in Turkey, I was enthusiastic about studying and building a good career. But after fleeing, I realised that a career is not the most important thing in life. Now I think health and freedom are the most important things in life. Because of that bad experience, some of my friends became really ill, both physically and mentally. Psychology. Now I realise that psychology and physical health are very important. And freedom too. In Turkey, I was free. Until that bad experience. I didn’t realise the importance of freedom. But now I do. Freedom is very important. If you want to go somewhere, want to go and can go, that’s really important. Sometimes you’re not allowed to do that. In a cell… it was really small, really narrow… You can’t walk. You can’t see the sun. You can’t see the stars. You can’t see any trees. And then, yes, you think about it. You think about the meaning of life. That changed my outlook on life.
[i] So you only realised that when you lost it?
[r] Yes, that’s right.
[i] And I also asked you to bring a precious object with you. Can you tell me a little about this object? And why is it so important to you?
[r] Yes, um… For me, the most important object is the book. That’s the Koran. In Arabic. Not in Turkish or Kurdish or Dutch. It’s the original Koran. And that book was a gift to me. I got that Koran from one of my teachers. In secondary school. And that was about 13 years ago. I got that Koran 13 years ago. And I brought that Koran with me. I came to Belgium with only a backpack. A few clothes, documents and also the Koran. I can read the Koran, I can read Arabic. Sometimes I can understand some sentences. When I am sad, I want to read the Koran. And when I read the Koran, I realise that I am talking to someone. To God. And I feel that. And then I become happier. I become calmer. So that is the most important thing for me. The most important book. The most important object in my life.
[i] Thank you, [name], for this interesting interview.
[r] You’re very welcome!
[i] It was very, very interesting. I wish you every success in the future.
[r] Thank you very much!
[i] And with your life in Belgium.
[r] It was a really good opportunity to share my story with others. I think my story is unique. Sometimes it’s strange. Sometimes it’s sad. But that’s the story. I experienced it. Thank you for asking me to share my story.
[i] Thank you! Thank you very much.
[r] You’re welcome!