SU_A_18

[i] Is Farsi Okay?
[i] Farsi? Dutch? English?
[r] Dutch.
[r] Farsi is not okay.
[i] Dutch
[r] Okay.
[i] I will …
[r] uhm … [speaks Farsi ]
[i] [name], …
[i] do you miss home?
[r] Yes, I miss my family and my “homeland”, my homeland.
[i] Do you have memories of your home country?
[r] Yes, everyone has a lot of memories of his homeland or home country. When I am in Afghanistan, Was when I was little, I had such a good time with my family. I was my father’s favorite son, my mother. And also the favorite son of our family. Because, when I was little When I was born. I was a bit paralyzed. I couldn’t step until I was five years old. Then my grandmother started looking for a doctor. To here, there. Finally I started walking. That’s why I was very … I was paralyzed and everyone loved me. I started with steps and the family was very happy. My father, my mother and my grandmother. When I was little, I was always with my grandmother. I slept with my grandmother. Always. When we went to the bed I slept with my grandmother. I put my hand in her sleeves. See you here. Than… I have very good memories about my grandmother. When I was seven years old I went to school For the first time. That had been a difficult day for me. The first day to school. This way I got to know people quietly, quietly. The director, our teachers. The first day they were not so friendly. I thought: oh no. I don’t want to come here because they are not friendly. I want to play. I don’t want to go to school. I don’t want to read. I just want to play Playing football or I don’t know what. So I started school. When I started school … I can say it now, when I was small, I was super smart. A very smart boy. Not just within our family, Also in the school. When I started school I was seven years old Until I was thirteen, until I was fourteen years old. I was the first student, I had the highest points at school. And every year I had the medal of best student of the year and also at home. At home we had to read Koran at our father because our father could read that very well Koran. He was like an imam. Every evening, I with my two big brothers and my big sister. We went to our father and he taught Koran a little bit. My two brothers and my sister, They couldn’t remember so well. But I was super smart. When my father explains something, It is so and so, and then tomorrow I had everything in my head. And I can just, without looking at papers, I can explain to my father. And he was super proud of me, about me. When I was eight years old, I started training. Because my big brother had black belt from karate. He did a little bit of karate in Kabul. I was born in Parwan. Parwan is a province in Afghanistan. So, I wasn’t born in Kabul. So not in the capital but in Parwan. Parwan is close to Kabul, About 160 km far from Kabul.
[i] Which city in Parwan?
[r] Which city in Parwan? Parwan is a province. So I’m in it Shaikh Ali District born.
[i] Shaikh Ali?
[r] Shaikh Ali, yes. So I was born there. And my big brother did a little bit of karate in Kabul. So he had his black belt. When I was eight years old … The TV that was … Our neighbor, he had a TV. He always had DVDs of Jet Li or Jackie Chan. Such as action movies . So every night, every night I went to watching movies. When I went to watch Jackie Chan’s movie, I mean Jet Li, then I thought: I also have to learn to kick, I also have to learn gymnastics, somersaults or something. So one day I went to my big brother. “Hey brother, I want to learn something from karate or from sport.” And he said: “Why do you have to learn?” I said: “I just want to learn it, When I go to school, if someone does a bit of hatred with me, Then I’m going to hit. ” He pulled my ear. AH-UH! If you want to learn karate, Then you shouldn’t fight. Because karate, karate starts with respect and ends with respect. So that doesn’t mean that if I teach you karate, that you have to go to the street or to school and argue with other children Or give hurt to someone else. That is not possible. I said, “Okay. I’m never going to do anything like that.” So I started training. I was also super in training. I had 44 sheep myself. 44 sheep, I was like a shepherd. So every day, an hour or two hours I was taught by karate from my brother. And I went to the mountains with my sheep, To the river or to somewhere else. I was always busy kicking With boxing, against the tree. I always thought I ever … Not thought, I mean, I Challenge Always Myself. [I have always challenged myself.] You can’t kick there. You can’t stairs that high. And I did my best to touch my foot there, or I don’t know, jumping. So that’s how I started karate. After a while, after a while … I got my blue belt. The blue belt of my big brother. And he said: “[name], you’re ready now.” “You can now participate in competitions.”
[i] “How old were you?”
[r] I was around 9 years old. I was 9 years old when I was ready to go to competitions in Kabul. That was not so easy to go from Parwan to Kabul for competitions and such. So I did. Once I went to Kabul for a competition, that was a national competition. I’ve been there. I was in the first stage. So had gold medal. When I was nine years old. My family and my brother they were super proud. Family, I mean my grandmother, my grandfathers, My grandmother. They didn’t know what is karate. What is competition. They had no thoughts about such things. They thought: “Oh, that’s nothing. Everyone can do that. ” That was not the case. You really had to train for that and I have already done. At 9 years, when I was 9 years old I achieved my first medal from Kabul. And then I stopped karate because I was not quite good. I still had problems with my legs. I was not paralyzed. I could step. I could walk, walk very quickly. Sometimes I had pain in my knee. So I had to stop from my brother with karate. So I stopped. And then after a year, a little less or a little more, I started back. Then my father said: “Now you have to focus for your studies, your studies.”
[i] Was it important in your family for study?
[r] That was important, yes. My father, he had been an important man in our village. He was like General in Afghanistan. He always had dreams for me For my other brothers, or for my sister.
[i] and your mother?
[r] My mother, she was a housewife. She was always at home. When my mother was young, she didn’t have it that easy. Then there was not such an easy situation to go to school. Because then we had a very bad war with England, with Russia. Or with other groups such as Taliban, Or others, I don’t know anymore. So that wasn’t that easy for my mother. She always had to stay inside. Not outside. No school. No training. Nothing at all. Only at home. But my mother could write and read. But in our native language, not in English or another language. Just in our native language.
[i] and your native language?
[r] My mother tongue is Dari.
[i] dari.
[r] my native language is dari but I can … In Afghanistan there are different languages. So Dari is the first language of Afghanistan, Pashto is the second language of Afghanistan. I can speak Pashto, a little bit. But I understand Pashto very well. So I started school. When I was in fourth grade, I decided to … Fifth grade I have to take an exam. I was not allowed to wait for the whole year. I was allowed to take the exam and if I passed then I immediately went from the fourth to sixth. So I did that. I did that, then I passed. So I went straight to the sixth.
[i] Was it also the primary school and then high school?
[r] No, there is a big difference between Belgium and Afghanistan. We start at seven years. If we turn seven then we go to school. We start from first class, And it takes until the twelve. So if you are eighteen years old Then you are done with your secondary diploma. It is completely different from Belgium. You have to go to secondary Or toddler or something. That is not the case with us. So you just have to keep up One, two, three, four, … step by step. So I passed fifth I went to sixth grade. And there I started … In sixth I had to work very hard for the school. In fifth I didn’t do all year because that was a bit difficult. I did take the exam because my father was a very good man. And my sister was also very smart.
[i] How many sisters?
[r] I have one sister.
[i] a sister and how many brothers?
[r] I have one sister and we are six brothers.
[i] Six brothers.
[r] Seven brothers, sorry.
[i] together, yes. One sister and seven …
[r] Seven brothers. I am my father’s third son. So my other brothers, they were smaller or not born. I started school. I did my best very hard. I could also draw very well. Super nice drawing when I was small. Fantastic. But one day I decided not to draw anymore. Because one day my mother went to the market. And she said: “[name], look, here is your little brother and you have to be careful for your little brother and I go to the market. Nobody is at home You are only here, you are bigger than him, So you have to be careful. ” I said, “Okay mother, go calmly, I’m going to be careful.” I was drawing and my brother had fallen from somewhere, from the table. He had a big hole in his forehead. There was a lot of blood. When my mother came home, she was super scared. What happened to him? I had my brother’s head in my lap when my mother came home. There was a lot of blood. I had a towel. I put the towel on his forehead. My mother was super boos and then I decided: I will never again sign in my life. Never again. Then I was drawing. I was not … I was busy with my own papers, pen or pencil. Then I decided: I will never draw again. Then I was very scared. Then, I was very scared.
[i] How old were you?
[r] around twelve years. Something like that, yes: Around twelve years. So I stopped drawing. I felt like starting training again. So I started training again. Train very hard. Always train. Always train. I could not focus for study or something. Always training. After a while I stopped through my knee again. So I stopped again with karate, So again with study and such. When I was in the eighth grade, then I had the plan To take another ninth class an exam. That way I could go directly to the tenth. So I did that. Then I succeeded. I passed because my teachers and my director They knew me. They could me, that I am smart That I wanted to study. That I want to achieve something. They also had no problem with Nine years to go to ten to go. That’s why I passed. I thought, yes. And I was also happy with my director.
[i] Someone specifically who remembers you from your school?
[r] of my school?
[i] a teacher or someone.
[r] There are a lot of people in my head. I always think about them. My director and my teachers … I have always been super polite with my teachers. But I once argued with a boy from our class. It was about colored pencil. We had a fight about a colored pencil. Because if we had to draw something, we had a large box of colored pencils. That was super difficult to …
[i] who is that?
[r] Yes, who is that? It was hard to match that boy. I said, “I need that now.” He: “No, I need it. I want first.” He said: he wants first. In the end we argued. The director came to our class. He has given us a big punishment. In Afghanistan, if you argue, if you do not do homework, you will get very strict punishment, Not like in Belgium. Or a task … But you get … They are going to hit you with a stick. On your hands or maybe on your feet. Then they beat me a few times with the stick on my hands. Then I was in a lot of pain. I was sad. I am not ashamed to say That I also cried a little bit. A little bit! A lot! When I got home, I was angry with everyone, on my mother … And my mother said: you have argued at school. Why are you angry with me or on your brothers? That is over and no longer arguing. Then they will not hit you. They are not stupid either. Somewhere a lot of people that I remember from school. Almost everyone. During the sports hour we had so much fun with the students. We have experienced a lot, a lot. Sometimes we just went out of school. We didn’t always go to school. Sometimes running from the school. We left home. “Hello mother, day! I’m going to school.” We had everything in our backpack: Food, papers, books, almost everything. Then we did not go to school but to the mountains or the river. A little swimming and such.
[i] did you have a role model?
[r] Please??
[i] a role model.
[r] A role model?
[i] someone you admire, then.
[r] a role model. No, I don’t think so. A role model: what does that mean?
[i] a role model, for example: In my childhood I had a book, a biography about it Albert Schweitzer. That was a man, a Swiss man who had been to Africa. He helped African people … Helped with a hospital and education. So he was someone I, yes, I’m going to be like that person.
[r] Ah yes! Look, role model. Now I can say, my father, he was my role model. My father, first my father. Because he always had a nice costume of the soldiers and always salute. That was perfect for me. Every day I went to his room and I put his cap on my head. I made a selfie and such things. Then I had a Nokia GSM. A small mobile phone. I couldn’t make selfie. I always tried to take photos. We had an old camera, A very old camera. My father was a role model for me. And after my father: Jet Li! Jackie Chan! That’s why I started Karate. They were my role model.
[i] How old are you?
[r] Now I am nineteen years old.
[i] nineteen.
[i] How old were you when you left Afghanistan?
[r] when I was sixteen years old I left Afghanistan. Yes, when I was sixteen years old. I was busy with school and suddenly, I don’t know what happened. Because bad people lived in our village. And my father, he always worked. Nobody knew he was working like a general. With the government , I mean. Nobody knew that. If someone asks ours from ours, then we said … My father always worked in another province. The most dangerous province of Afghanistan. Not in our village, But in another province. He sometimes came to home. But not with a military uniform or something. Simply, in normal clothes and such. So that nobody understood that he worked with the government . That was not normal in our village. If someone knows you … My father calls Abdul Hakim. If anyone knows that Abdul Hakim works with soldiers … He fights bad people. That is super dangerous. So on a day, I don’t know what happened, someone from our neighbors saw my father with his uniform, with his car. After a week, I heard that almost all people in the village now know that my father works there. We also had good people and bad people in the village. We were a little bit of a rich family in Afghanistan. And our neighbors, they always had a fight with us.
[i] Why?
[r] For we are rich. We had a large garden. We had a large garden, almost 500 apple trees. 500 apricots, I don’t know, almonds and such. So we were a large family, the strongest family, We were the strongest family in our village. And also the richest family in our village. And my father, he also had a high … was also an important man. Sometimes they wanted more than us. They wanted to become richer. That is why they have many complaints to the bad people … One day when my father was not at home, one day we received a message From the people: where is your father? We need your father. We must meet your father. My mother, she was super smart, she knew what’s going on. She did nothing at all. No response. After the second day, third day, fourth day, … I was with my big brother [name], he had a car. We went to the market. That was around noon. When we left home to market. When we returned, That was around four or so. Four o’clock in the afternoon. We had bought things like rice, I don’t know, flower and such things. And we were in the car. Suddenly, we saw that there were four people. Four people, to us and they said: Stop! Stop! We said: okay. They asked where we came. We said of the market. He asked: “What is your father’s name?” We said that our father’s name is [name]. Then I made a mistake. I didn’t have to say that my father works with the soldiers. When I was small, around sixteen years or so, I was smart, but also a little bit crazy in my head. Sometimes people forget some things. So that was not allowed by our family that we should say our father works with soldiers. So they said, they asked, “what does your father do?” I said, “He is military.” All of a sudden … They said, “Ah, okay.”
[i] Those people were from the Taliban?
[r] Yes. In our village you cannot say: he belongs to the Taliban or he is a normal person. When they came to us they had nothing at all. They had ordinary clothes, They was wearing a thick scarf. They always have a thick scarf, fat … I don’t know how can I say, a hood or something. Then I said my father is a soldier. Suddenly we have seen that they have taken weapons. From under their scarf. Weapons, large weapons. And they said, “Okay.” They asked me: “Go back.” I had to sit back At the back of the car. He sat with my brother, he hit my brother twice. They took us to our own place. After a while, I don’t know where my mother heard that they had taken us. So my mother went to the old people of the village. She went there. To ask that they have to go to Taliban. Because sometimes bad people they have a little respect for old people. With a long beard, a white beard. They have a little bit A bit of respect. And my mother, she had to give a lot of money to the old people to bring there. To let us free. So then I … They took us. We drove half an hour by car. They said that I had to get out there. My mother, My brother had to continue. So we were not with my brother.
[i] How old was your brother?
[r] My brother, he was around nineteen years old. Around nineteen years. I was sixteen years old.
[i] Were you scared?
[r] certainly and fixed. I was super bang.
[i] Did you know what will happen or nothing?
[r] I didn’t know what will happen. I knew it, That they are not normal people. Then they hit my brother and I saw that weapon. Then I thought, “Something is wrong.” They took us and I was three nights with the bad people. They have me in a castle … Castle, where the animals live. They thrown me there.
[i] a stable, a stable. [stable].
[r] stable , not castle. stable , sorry. They thrown me there and three nights and three days I was there. Every day, every day, they come to me and every day I always get pain from those people. They cut into my three fingers. A finger every day. I still have the scars here, look. Every day they cut into my finger, one finger. They always had the same question: “Where is your father? Give his mobile number. ” I didn’t have my father’s mobile number. Really, because my father was an important man. He knew his mobile number every week, every week. He never had, he never had a mobile number for anyone. A new GSM number every day. A new GSM number every week. A new GSM number every week. I didn’t have his last mobile number. And I didn’t have a mobile phone either. Then they kidnapped me. Every day they cut my finger to ask “Where is your father?” Or succeed with the stick on my feet, on my knees and such. They also destroyed my three teeth. Yes, now I have to laugh. But then I was really in pain! They took the stick in my mouth. That’s why my lips are a bit thick now. And my three teeth, I still have pain. I can’t drink cold water or eat hot. They destroyed my teeth. They cut my fingers. Finally we have … One day they came to me and they said, “You are free now. Go to home.” When I got home, the old people, they took our car, They have taken a lot of money. They released us. And the old men, They have written on a piece of paper like proof, “Leave the boys free and his father will come to you within a week.” They expected a lot from my father. First they expected to help with the bad people, not with the government . And then, if it is not, voilà, my father is … yes. So they released us. When we got home … When we got home and my mother says: “No. It is no longer safe here for you. You have to leave tonight. ” She did not say where. Kabul, Mazari Sharif or Kunduz, no. You have to leave. She said: you have to go to Kabul, where your father’s best friend lives. He lives in Kabul. He knows you are coming to Kabul Then he takes you to his home. So we had to leave. I took my backpack. My mother has a few pills, such as paracetamol, and she put them into my things. I didn’t know we went that far. All the way to the other side of the world. Thousands of kilometers from Afghanistan. I really didn’t know that. Not my brother either.
[i] Do you remember that moment?
[r] Certainly! Everyone was crying. Everyone was crying! My little brothers, They were sleeping. We had to do at three o’clock Leave at night because during the day, that was difficult. That was super difficult. Around three in the morning. Everyone was crying. My sister and my mother, my brother, my biggest brother he doesn’t live with us either. He lived in another province. He was married, he had children. He had work in another province. Me and my brother [name], we were those responsible for our family. Because my father was gone too. My big brother too. Me and [name], we had the responsibility for our brother, for our garden, everything. We had to leave at three in the morning. I took my backpack. I asked my mother: “Please give your headscarf.” And said said, “Why?” I said: “If I miss you Then I smell your headscarf, then I think of you. She had to cry very hard. She has me … She gave me a hug, a big hug, a super big hug. I was in her arms for almost five minutes. She has collected all the important papers. Such as ID card or other passport and such. She has given me 500 dollars. $ 500 to my big brother. And put in our backpack. And she said, “Maybe you need this.” On the way if you need something to eat and such. And yes, we left. I didn’t know it was going to take so long to see my mother again. I thought maybe We go for a week or two weeks. But my mother did not know that we are not going, we will not see each other so quickly. We Cannot See Each Other So Soon. We left. If I knew we are going so far from our mother, from our family, from our homeland, Then I would never leave my mother. Never. I was my mother’s favorite son and I love my mother, my family, my garden, From my sheep. And I suddenly left everything behind. I came here. The most important thing is, If I knew I would go that far, I would never say to my mother day. Never. I would never leave my mother in such a difficult situation.
[i] Is it possible to see your mother and sister and your brothers again? Now that you stay here.
[r] is currently not possible. Because at the moment we have to wait for our citizenship or nationality. Then we can only go to Afghanistan. But I am never optimistic that I can see them again, that I can see my mother again. That I can see my little brothers again. That I can go back to my own house. Back to my own village or own garden. I am not optimistic there. And there is no reason to be optimistic. Because the situation even worse than before. Now it’s worse than before. If I talk to my mother via mobile, via the internet, I don’t know, then I hear … she doesn’t want to show me that she has it very difficult. But I hear it, I have such a feeling that they are still the same problems Like before. And my father, my father, I have not heard from my father for almost six years. It is also difficult because he was in another province. He was in the most dangerous province. He was fighting against the bad people. It’s almost six years old, I have heard nothing about my father. Not my mother either Not my big brother either. We have no news at all. Is he still alive? Or was he died? Because in Afghanistan, in Afghanistan, almost 200 or 300 people die every day. They will die from the war. I know for sure. I am also not optimistic that my father is still alive. I always want to stay positive. And I always say to myself: “Maybe he is in a prison, maybe he is I don’t know where, maybe he is busy.” But that is not possible! In six years he never called me or to my mother. To say he is still alive. Or that he is in this province. Or that he is working, Or he is in prison. So I am not optimistic that he is still alive. My father was a very brave man. He was really a brave man.
[i] Is that something cultural for Afghanistan?
[r] to be brave?
[i] Yes, for men.
[r] for men? Men who work in a few groups, Like bad people, I can’t say, “They are brave.” They are not brave, they are super stupid. They have no feelings. I think so. I don’t think so I’m sure. They have no feelings, They always want more and more. They want everything for themselves. Not for someone else. But I can now say that my father was brave. He was always ready to help people. He was always ready to help people With all situations. And the other men of Afghanistan, who work at the Government [government], Giving lessons, the director or I don’t know what, Pardon. They are also brave. They are also brave because it is not such a short period that we are busy with the war. It is very long that we are … I don’t know how long. We spend a long time working on the war in Afghanistan. They still live in Afghanistan. They still support [support] their children to go to school. To learn good things. Like my father. My father did his best. He also had a difficult situation. He also had … Yes that is true, we were a bit rich. But we still had a lot of difficult situation. Another difficult situation with such bad people. The other men of Afghanistan, they are also brave. They are also brave. Not all men.
[i] So you and your brother left?
[r] We left Afghanistan, that was …
[i] from Parwan?
[r] from Parwan yes.
[i] to Kabul, did you know how is that going?
[r] when we arrived in Kabul, we were in a restaurant, To eat and such. We were also a bit sad. I was hungry too. I was in so much pain. I had Bandage everywhere, my teeth … I had a lot of pain in my teeth. But still I tried to eat something. We were in a restaurant … We have seen that we have come to the restaurant’s friend’s friend. We had seen our father’s friend more often, in the past. When I came to Kabul, I had seen him and he had been home once so he was a visitor, He was with us for a week. He enjoyed nature, the river or the mountains or our garden. So, I knew him. We could do him. He came to the restaurant and took us to his home. So we went there and showered and ready, a bit …
[i] worries
[r] yes, worry. They said “you are going to leave. You have to … Your father called me. You should not stay in Kabul. Because Kabul, currently the most dangerous province in Afghanistan. Currently. Yes, it is true that Kabul is the capital of Afghanistan. There are many ministries, soldiers and such. But still, Kabul is the most dangerous province in Afghanistan. Then that was the case too. Every day, two or three or four bomb blasts [bomb attacks]. That is an English word: bomb blast . And so almost thousands of people died every day. Through the bomb blasts .
[i] attacks.
[r] attack, sorry. He told us, Your father called me. You are not allowed to stay in Kabul, you must leave for the other province. He did not say, you go to Pakistan, to Iran, to Turkey. And in the end, I don’t know, to Europe. We were sad anyway. We said “no that is not possible.” We can stay here, If my father comes here then we will tell our father that he must rent a house in Kabul. Then we bring our family here, our mother. Then we are living here. But my mother was brave too And also a little bit stubborn. But I can’t say a bad word. Stubborn is not a bad word. I can’t be rude to my mother. She was not stubborn. She had … She was brave. She said to us a few times: I will die, but here. Not in Kabul, not in another province. Here’s my house Here I worked hard for so many years to build for you. I made the garden. 500 apple trees, that is not so easy to make such a large garden. She said: I will never leave my house, my garden. For our neighbors, for bad people, then they are going to grab everything and such. I will never do that. I will die here but I will never go anywhere. But now I can’t say stubbornly to my mother. She was brave!
[i] loyalty ?
[r] Yes. Yes, she was brave. And she said: look, I have worked so much, I made everything all my life and that is for you. If I go away, I say that I, I lost you [living]. [Breadwinning], such as food, I don’t know. How can I say that? [Breadwinning]?
[i] How long did the entire trip last? From Kabul to …?
[r] to Belgium?
[i] Yes.
[i] A long journey?
[r] So we left from Kabul, at night. Our Father’s friend, He took us to a special place where people left for other provinces, to Kandahar. So we left with a large bus to Kandahar. Someone else came there. They took us. With his car, to Quetta. Quetta is a province of Pakistan.
[i] Which is that?
[r] Quetta.
[i] Quetta?
[r] Yes, Quetta is the province of Pakistan. So, Kandahar and Quetta is like the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. A border province. border [border]. So we went to Quetta. And I thought, we thought: Quetta is not in Afghanistan, is it? So we are in Pakistan. That was not that easy either. When we left Kandahar, I had to put on a hijab. Because if you want to cross the border, without a passport, without papers. That is super difficult to go to another country. So I had to put on a hijab. And my brother [name], he had to go in the car, but back. How can I say? The suitcase! He had to sleep in the suitcase. And I was wearing a hijab. I had to laugh a little when I put on a hijab. And I thought: oh, Fortunately I am not a girl. So we left. That was a bit fun but we too have a hard time. The weather was super hot and I was wearing a hijab. We left, We arrived in Quetta. We spent two days overnight, left in Quetta. Then we left back, to Balochistan. Balochistan is also a province of Pakistan.
[i] Iran.
[r] Pakistan also has a Balochistan. Between the border of Iran and Pakistan. Here is the border, Pakistan here also calls Balochistan. Iran too. So we went there. And we had to stay there one night. Leave for Iran at night. To cross the border. So at night around twelve, two hours. Then we left Pakistan to Iran on foot. To put the border.
[i] cross.
[r] cross, yes. We walked on foot for almost five hours. We had no water. And the weather was also super hot.
[i] at night.
[r] at night, yes. That was also super hot. Balochistan is always warm, I think. So we did everything on foot, We had no water, I was very thirsty, Everyone was thirsty. Everyone was almost, almost dead.
[i] Were you with a group of people?
[r] We were with a group. There were five or six agents . Or agent [intermediary] They guided us, Go here, go there. Along the way we had to sneak a few times because there were soldiers and they were watching, Is there anyone or not. So we also had to run fast. I didn’t have good shoes myself when I left the village. I didn’t have good shoes I just had nice shoes. That is good to go to a party or go to school. But not to go to the mountains for walking or something. I was cold too. We walked for five hours. Until we arrived, arrived in Iran Balochistan. It was also super difficult there. They were not so friendly The people of Balochistan. We had a bottle of water … We had to pay a lot of money to get a bottle of water. Very expensive. They also have a few times, That was not so friendly, I will never forget that. From Quetta to Belgium we were on the road for about 31 days. From Pakistan to Belgium. When we left, we did not know that we are going to Belgium. We also did not know which country. But we knew, When we came to Quetta, and my brother said, He was a little older, he was a little smarter than me. He said: “[name], we are super far from our family, from our mother.” We had to give a hug to each other, and we had to cry. He said: “No, We are no longer in Afghanistan. ” I could read that too. On the plate of the … everywhere. The number plate of the car. And he could read that too. When I was sixteen years old I was done with school. Then I had my secondary diploma in my hand when I was sixteen years old. Because I took the exam for two years. Normally, to You have to be ready for 18 years, but when I was 16 years old, I was ready. I had my secondary education diploma on my hand. My brother, my big brother [name], he worked, when he was in Afghanistan he already worked as an interpreter. In Afghanistan with American soldiers. When I was in Afghanistan, My father had a dream for me. He wanted me to be a pilot. Because in Afghanistan we have too few helicopters or planes or pilots. To help people during the war or something. So he always had plan, I had to … He had a plan for me. When I finished secondary education, he had planned to … He planned that he sends me to India to study for pilot. Like a fair, something like that. He had such a plan for me. He had money. My father had money. He could buy a fair for me. So he had a plan. I also planned to become a pilot. And also champion, world champion! So we were on the road for 31 days. We have been to Iran, We left Iran to Turkey. The limit of Iran and Turkey that was … All boundaries were not that easy. Everything was super difficult, everything. So the border from Iran to Turkey that was the most difficult thing, that was the most difficult. We had to stay in the mountains for five days and five nights. And that was also a bit cold. There was also a little bit of snow. I didn’t have a big jacket myself. I didn’t have good shoes myself. I had no food myself, no water. So three nights. One day, I was super hungry. I was super hungry I had nothing at all. And the agents [intermediaries], they were not with us either, we were with a group. My brother was sleeping, I had always been sad. Every day I had to cry for my mother, for my family, every day. Not about the bad, difficult situation. Because I was born in village, and I grew there. I also walked in the mountains with the sheep. I was fit and healthy. Then I had no pain in my knee. Only on my hands and teeth. I was super fit. But my brother, He did not do any sport when he was in Afghanistan. He was a bit lazy. He had a hard time walking or walking but I was fit. I was always sad about my mother. I tried, I always ask someone else: “Give your cell phone please.” I want to call my mother. But there was no one to help me, nobody. So one day I had super hunger. I was also sad. I had seen that [name] was sleeping. My brother. Also the other groups. The other people from the other group. They were also sleeping. So I have seen a tree. And I went to that tree. I knew other people they had food. They were super smart, They had taken food. They had almonds, such things. Taken into the backpack. I was a little small. My brother a bit sick. And I didn’t know I had to get food when I left. We had no food with us. So I went to the tree. I took a few leaves. And I ate. That was tasty! That was nice, because I was hungry. If you are hungry then everything is nice, I think. I was super hungry and I ate the leaves. My brother was sick. I had money with me. We had a lot of money ourselves. When we left Afghanistan. We had left the village my mother gave us 1000 dollars. And also our father’s friend, he gave us a lot of money. Almost 3000 to me, 3000 to my brother, dollar. Along the way you could use that for water and such. That’s why we had no problem with money. But unfortunate, we were not, we have never experienced so to leave without a trip or something. Such a difficult situation. Without papers, without a passport or something. We had no experience, I mean. I forgot what to say.
[i] You were hungry, your brother was sick.
[r] My brother was sick! My brother was sick. So agents , they had three horses. They had three horses. With different things on the horses and such. So I went to … That was super difficult to go to Turkey for my brother to go. So I thought … He was almost dying, my brother. He was super sick. He was almost dying. Fortunately I had done a little bit of sport in Afghanistan. I was a bit fit. And when my brother was in Afghanistan, he smoked a little bit. And if you smoke, then your …
[i] lungs.
[r] Yes, your lungs don’t work so well. So he was super sick and then I went to the agent . With a very friendly request. I said: look, You are my big brother. I told the agent, they were not friendly They always had a stick. If you’re a little bit, If you take a little break, they will hit you super hard. They don’t think you’re a human. They think you are a donkey, or I don’t know, sorry, that you are a cow, that you are a horse. They succeed super hard.
[i] Were those Afghan men?
[r] No? They were Kurdish.
[i] Kurdish.
[r] Kurdish, and also Baluch.
[i] human smugglers.
[r] smugglers, such as the agents yes. So I went to him I was scared and I said: look, my big brother, You are my big brother. I have a very friendly request for you. Please, I’ll give you 200 dollars, please, bring my brother with your horse from here to border. And I had to pay 1500 for the people. Pay 1500 for the men, to bring my brother with his horse from here. Finally they said: okay. 1500, okay. First I said 200, then 300. Please, please. And I sat down on my knees: Please. I was hungry too, I was super hungry too. I also had a lot of pain. But then I thought: now, He is more important than me. He was good for me. I love my brother a lot. I only had one brother, then. No family, nothing at all. So I paid 1500 to that man. They have not brought my brother to the border, but a little bit, About 5 kilometers. They brought my brother from here. And they said my brother: rise. Not out, but …
[i] Downstairs. [AF]
[r] Downstairs, yes. Just rise down. I said, “You said to the border, right?” “No, that’s not possible. We have if necessary. We need it if. ” And they have … He took the stick in no time. “Okay.” I said: “Okay, okay. It’s good. Okay, it’s good. ” So I was scared. In the end we came to Turkey. But we also had a difficult situation between Isfahan and Tehran. There were so bad drivers. I can’t say that all Iran people, they are so bad. Every country has good people and bad people. But the drivers, the agents , the smugglers, they really were not people, They really were not human. And we were with eight people. We were in the car with twelve people. A Peugeot. Three people in the back of the suitcase. Five people in the rear seat, a three -seater. And two people in the front. And we were, so, so. If you move, a little bit, you can’t. From Isfahan to Tehran, I don’t know how many kilometers is that? I think a lot, a lot. You can’t just sit that way. You have to move a little bit. Sometimes you get back pain, or knee pain, I don’t know. Everywhere pain! They hit my brother a few times. With his … he had one thing in his hand. He hit my brother in his head a few times. A few times beaten me. Then he beat my brother, I thought: now I’m going to do something with the agent . Then it doesn’t matter what will happen, But I’m really going to do something. But suddenly, The other people of the car … I started calling, I started saying bad words to the man. And he also started saying very bad words to me. Then we came to Tehran. And the man, the driver, has given me a few times with his foot, very hard. Very hard, because I said a few bad words to him. Now that I think: when I see that man, then, maybe, … I don’t leave him anymore … Yes. So I was really in pain when he hit my brother. That is not so bad. But if you take something in your hand, something with metal and then you hit the head; My brother had a hole in his head. He had so much blood. Blood everywhere. Because he was sick. So yes. I am not saying: all people of I Iran are not friendly. They also have good people and also bad people. I don’t have a plan to go back to Iran. Never! I hate myself, those people from Iran. You can also say that I hate Iran. But no, that’s not the case. Because Iran is a large country and millions of people live there. So I said: they have good people and bad people. But Iran … When I hear about Iran, then … Then I don’t get good feelings Always bad feelings. When we came to Turkey, we arrived, we left, van van, Somewhere a province in Turkey, close to the border of Iran. We came to Istanbul. Istanbul, we were there for a week. And my father had my father’s friend had some friends in Turkey. So we came there, They took us to … The people of Turkey, They were super friendly. Really, they gave us very good food, very well taken care of. We even had four people, one bedroom. When we were in Tehran, In Tehran we were not in castle either, what do you say?
[i] stable .
[r] stable correctly, stable . We were also in stable , We were more than fifty people. With about twenty meters …
[i] space.
[r] twenty meters space. And if we had to sleep, Then we had to sit like that. And I always sleep with my head Always on my brother’s shoulder. And we had so … I have seen a few photos last month on Facebook, And I had to think about, they took a picture of things. So, yes, in Turkey they were very good. They always had a sandwich and so to give. We were also happy. So in Istanbul we waited … We were in Istanbul for one week. Then we left for Greece. We agreed with someone who had a boat. That was an agent to bring people from here, from this side to the other side, from Greece. We left. But luckily, we had no difficulties when we were on the way of Turkey to Greece. Look, what do I mean. So we left at nine o’clock. That was the first day of Ide Kurban, the sacrificial party. Then we left of Turkey to Greece. So that was round … We left in the evening from Istanbul, to Izmir. So we were in Izmir around one o’clock. And there was so much rain, And we had nothing at all. We had to wait until it is a little bit, a little bit, not dark but,
[i] dark?
[r] No, no. It was dark. It was dark at one o’clock in the morning. Little light, I mean. We waited to get a little light. To shine the sun or something. Then a little bit of light came, When the sun shines. Our agent started to make things our boat. That wasn’t really a boat. But a boat with … That’s just you can use the boat once. If you go there then they will destroy.
[i] like a kayak or something?
[r] Yes, yes, yes, yes. So a twenty -meter boat. No, sorry. Sixty meters. Sixteen meters! Not sixty, but sixteen. Sixteen yes, sorry. One-six, not six-zero. One-six yes. We had such a boat and we were with 45 people. 45 people, incredible. With sixteen … So we helped our agent to make everything right from the boat. We left at ten o’clock. We left at ten o’clock. When we were on the road in the sea, and everyone was crying because the sea was not quiet.
[i] What month was it? Was it cold?
[r] That was cold!
[i] Which month?
[r] That was … Allez, I don’t know from outside. But it was a sacrificial party.
[i] Offer party. Yes the sacrifice party changes. Was it summer or fall?
[r] It wasn’t a summer. It was a bit cold. It was a bit cold. A lot of wind was blowing. And the sea was not …
[i] Quiet.
[r] Quiet. It goes there and there. We had a hard time. When we were on the road, And we are in half the road, Suddenly, our agent has said: Oh, our boat no longer has gas. Or petrol , I don’t know what. Everyone was sad. There were three or four people from Iran, When they left, When we left, They started with … or Salawat [prayer]. Everyone was busy Salawat, Salawat, Salawat. Our boat had stopped. There was no gasoline. The same day we left with five boats. The same day. We were with five boats. There were other four Boats that left. We were more than five hundred people on the road. So finally: there was a boat. During, when we have no gasoline. We had to jump in the water. Because that was not easy if the boat stays on The water comes and it goes like that. So we had to jump to water, and yes.
[i] Can you swim?
[r] a little bit anyway. No, not in the sea. We had a jacket [life jackets] for swimming. So we had one We were two, we had one jacket. So I gave my brother. Take this one. And jump in the water. No problem, If I jump then I will take you. And he said: take you. And we were a little fight: no you. – You! -Jij! Finally someone else has They had extra jacket for us. They said: you can both visit and jump in the water. So we jumped into the water. We were cuddling together. And everyone was together. Not special, But together in a group in the water. Another boat came. They have given us gas. So we had to go back to the boat. Everyone was wet. The boat was tough. Everyone was wet. The boat was tough. And agent has said: Now you have to … That had also been the most difficult moment for me. He said: Now you just have to throw your backpack in the water. Also your jacket, Because our boat is getting tough. And maybe we go, we die. So I said … What did I have in my backpack, the most important things I had, my mother’s headscarf. And when we were in Isfahan, and the agent from Isfahan they also thrown away our clothes. They always checked, they checked: what do I have in my backpack? They took our money. They took our phone. Everything. Our shoes. My coat. I had nothing at all. I had a very thin jacket. I still have with. Me and my brother, We were a bit smart. When we were in Isfahan, we had not left, so we made a hole. A hole made under our belts. And we have our money, almost 2000 dollars, We invested in here. So they have checked a few times. Here, here and here. Our pockets, our shoes and socks. They have found nothing. They have thrown away our clothes. And I said, I take my backpack. Please, I need it. Please, please. And he said: okay, it’s good. He has thrown away my brother’s backpack. But I did take my backpack, so hard. I said: no. And they had to hit me once and I continued: no, please. I was sixteen years old and I had to, A lot of cry when I was sixteen.
[i] 2015?
[r] Yes, at the end of 2015.
[i] at the end of 2015.
[r] Yes.
[i] was it almost winter?
[r] Yes, it was a little winter. The agent has said: you have to throw your backpack away. And everyone has thrown, And that was super difficult for me. I also had to cry again I had to ask again from the agent no, please, I have something in my backpack. ” I had passport, I had Id card, I had almost everything. I also had my secondary diploma. Still a copy. But they still thrown my backpack away. And there I thought: oh, my heart is no longer with me, But my heart is in my backpack. My thoughts, my memories, All stay in the backpack. And I had to look at my backpack for so long. He was just in the sea. To here, there. Oh shit – sorry! That was, every second of our trip was difficult. But the most difficult, When they thrown my backpack. And when they hit my brother. I can never forget that. The people of Iran, in Balochistan. So, we arrived in Greece, we have been on foot from Airland [airport] to [port]. Where the big boat comes. Where people, they take the people from Airland to the capital of Greece. So we took the boat, a big boat. More than 3000 people, they were in the boat. A five -storey boat. A chic boat. We came to Greece. Arrived with a agent . Then we had agent . They took us to Macedonia, To Croatia, to Serbia [Serbia], to Austria, to Germany [Germany] and to Belgium. When we were in Brussels. That was October 20, …
[i] October 20?
[r] Yes, when we arrived at Brussels.
[i] October 20, 2015?
[r] Yes, October 20, 2015. Less than three years, a little bit. Today we are the twelfth, yes? After eight days, Then we are in Belgium for three years. So, 20th October 2015 we arrived in Brussels. And our agent had said: here is your place. Go what you want, now I will not take you any further. But luckily, my brother, He could speak English. He was good. I could also speak English. So that was not difficult to find our way. We have seen a few refugees, Afghan or Somalis. They were also looking, Where should we go? Where is the Commissariat? We didn’t know, what is the Commissariat? Is it something to eat? When I was in Afghanistan, I never heard about Belgium. I never heard about Belgium and such. In Afghanistan, We often have history, but it was always about Afghanistan, the history of Afghanistan. I once read, in a book when I was in the eighth grade, our lesson from Emir Habibullah Khan. He had been president of Afghanistan. He had been to travel for three months, to all of Europe. I knew Germany , France, England. My sister lives in England. So Belgium or Belgium, I have never heard about that. So we came to Belgium, I have such a big one, Large apartments. Completely different from our village. Here you can easily, walk here, walk there, go to the store. It’s no longer like Iran, Pakistan or Turkey. To just sit in a small room. Here, the people, They look completely different. They have blond hair or I don’t know, a white mustache. So on October 20, 2015 we arrived to Belgium. The same day we went to the Commissariat. For the registration. So for requests, asylum applications.
[i] Asylum procedure.
[r] Asylum procedure, yes. We went there and we had to wait a long time. They have taken our thumb and fingers.
[i] How did the procedure go? Did you find that difficult or slow?
[r] No, that was difficult. There were a lot of people, we had to wait a long time. It was around 4 o’clock in the morning when we arrived in Brussels. By train of Germany . Around four in the morning. We had to wait until two o’clock in the afternoon until we could enter. There was such a large row. And then I thought, there is a big stream. That means that if someone asks me now: how did you come here? Then I always say with a large stream. I came here with a large stream. Then, in 2015 and 2016 there were Many refugees came to Europe. Yes, I didn’t know then. We went inside at two o’clock. And they asked: from which country do you come and so and so. Then I didn’t know: what is procedure. We had to do an interview, We had to go to a center. We had to wait so long. Nothing at all. Nothing at all. I could read: Brussels. Or I don’t know, a few words and such. I can say, I can hear, the other people in Belgium, they speak completely different: no English! No Dari, no Pashtu. No Hindi, no Urdu. I can speak Hindi, Urdu and Pashtu, such things. No Persian! No Tadjiks or Uzbeeks. Completely different. I didn’t have a mobile phone. I had nothing at all. My brother had nothing at all. He did have a small mobile phone, from Nokia. When he was on his way, he found that. He had found a cell phone from Nokia. They said: you have to go to …. Close to the commissariat, There is a large building. With twenty floors or so. They had no place, They sent us there. To stay there for a week. To stay there for one or two nights. They will decide, Which center will they send us to? We have been there for almost a week. In that large building. There were a lot of people in that building. Good people, everyone was tired. Everyone was sad. We came together every night, We played cards. A little bit of chat: which country do you come from? From which province? When I see Afghan people then I was a little happy. Here is someone from our home country. So we started to chat a bit, tell our story a bit. How did you leave there? What was Iran, Pakistan and Turkey? Where did you come here? How much have you paid? Who is your agent ? So many questions, so many questions. So many answers – oh my god ! So that was good. Finally, after a week we heard that we had to go to Limburg. To Leopoldsburg. To the reception center. So we went there. In that building we have two more boys …
[i] get to know? get to know
[r], yes. They were also from Afghanistan. In a week, Have we become good friends. In Brussels. That was difficult to separate from each other. We always waited, oh please, Send us to one center. Finally, that was true. They have our four to Leopoldsburg sent to Limburg. When we arrived in Limburg, we arrived there by bus. We… I saw a few containers and such. They said, here is your center. Here is your room. There is your room.
[i] How did you feel?
[r] I thought: hell! Where are we now? Maybe our journey has not been done yet, we have to start again. Our room was so big, So small, four and two. Four in length and two is the width. There were four beds. Bed with two floors. I said: Oh, no. We have not finished traveling yet. It is the beginning. It has just begun.
[i] it just started.
[r] in the same night, I slept very well in my bed. Then you had your own bed I slept very well.
[i] did you have a dream? That night?
[r] I still have dreams. That’s why I had to take a lot of pills, I had to go to the doctor twice, psychologist.
[i] is that a nightmare?
[r] No, it’s about my past tense.
[i] trauma.
[r] over my fingers, over my teeth. I still have bad dreams. I had to go to the psychologist twice a week To talk about. Still.
[i] Is it possible to follow those sessions here? To go to the psychologist.
[r] Yes, I’m still busy. I go to psychologist twice a week, To talk about. I still have bad dreams, Then I also had a dream. I still have bad dreams. I hope I can sleep without bad dreams someday. At night, suddenly I had to wake up. I have a lot of sweat Sometimes I had to call Sometimes my brother comes to my room. He says: [name], wake up, wake up. Still. The bad dreams about my past tense, He still follows me. Like a shadow. So we arrived in the center, Leopoldsburg reception center. There were a Turkish store, in Leopoldsburg.
[i] How long did you stay there?
[r] That was a temporary reception center. That was not for a long time That was just temporary. A lot of refugees had come to Belgium in 2015. So that was temporary. We came to the center around 27 October, to Leopoldsburg. Until September 2016. A year. A year. So I stayed there I started school there. Until … so in October I came to the center, I didn’t go to school until January. In January I went to school, to OKAN class. Before I went to school I have already started Dutch. I immediately bought a mobile phone A smartphone. There I was sought a few apps from Dutch. With Persian or English. So I started. Fortunately, I was – in the center – I was the only boy too Who was ready to go to school so quickly.
[i] Was it a minors center or with adults?
[r] That was no problem. Because when I came to Belgium, I was a minor. I was with my brother So he was my supervisor. Like my family, He guides me. That was no problem But I wasn’t in A minors center. I was with my brother with big people, And there were also minors. Boys and girls who were with family. With father, with mother, With brother or sister or something. So there were many minor people. We were more than 33 minor boys and girls. Teenagers, from 13 to 18 years old. Then I asked my assistant to look for a club for me. I had no choice. Every day in the center: the same food, the same room, the same situation. That would not have been easy. So I said: I said to myself: wake up now. Get up. In my native language. Also against [name], because I was always crying in my room. The assistants, They had so many problems with me. Every day, certainly two or three assistants they come to me to speak. Why are you cry? I had a hard time in the center. It was super difficult. I was super angry. I was super aggressive with everyone. I also started to argue a little bit with my brother. Because I often said to him: “Why are we here? I want to go back to Afghanistan. Why are we here? ” I had a hard time in the center. I really had it, really, really difficult. Nobody could speak with me. I was so aggressive. If anyone says, “Hello.” Then I say, “Go away!” I have not been friendly in the center when I was in the center. In Leopoldsburg, Also in the Left Bank reception center. In the left bank they also had a lot of problems with me. But when I was gone, now I realize that I was really not friendly. Now I do my best for all the bad words that I said to assistants or people from the center, to start everything again. Something better, or something good. More pleasant. I had a hard time in the center. One day I chose: it doesn’t work, crying every day. Every day, at night and during the day, in the bed. It’s not going like that. It doesn’t work that way. I had to think about my father He was so brave man, to my mother, to my little brothers. They are not happy for sure. And I had to do something for my family. Not for myself, for my family. So I started school. With Dutch. And also with talking, writing poems. When I was in the center I wrote a few poems. That had become a bit known. I have a few poems of myself in the newspapers and such. Then I asked my assistant to look for a club for me. They finally searched for a club in Ham. Ham is about 8 km far from Leopoldsburg. Ham is also a village in Limburg. And Leopoldsburg is also a village, a village. There was eight km difference between Leopoldsburg and Ham. Our assistant has found two or three volunteers to drive with me in the evening by car. To bring me there To take me back to the center. When I go to the training. So I started training. That is also a nice story, I think. That is also in the newspaper, Was also in the newspaper. On the first day I went to Club, I couldn’t do Dutch, but I could do English. So I saw my sensei. Sensei is a Japanese word. That is, trainer, in Japanese. Karate is from Japan.
[i] say that again?
[r] Sensei.
[i] Sensei?
[r] Yes. Sensei is a trainer in Japanese. My sensei, [name], He came to me, he has given a hand, he asks, “Are you a refugee?” That was hard to hear. Yes, I am a refugee.
[i] That was hard to hear?
[r] Yes.
[i] Why? Refugee, He has asked in English: Refugee, it is like refugee . He asked: are you refugee ? Refugee is not a nice word. Not pleasant.
[i] it has a negative connotation.
[r] Yes, refugee. So I said, “Yes.” He said: “Do you have clothes, Kimonos – A Karate -Kimono? ” I said: “No, But I’m looking to buy one. ” He said, “Do you have money?” I said, “Yes, I have money.” But our money was almost gone. Our money was, not almost, but completely up. In December we had no cent in our pocket at all. That was also super difficult to contact my mother. That was super difficult. There was a volunteer, He bought a kimono for me. [name], he was a volunteer. I am still grateful. I still have contact with him. He sometimes comes to visit, or sometimes I go to him. That’s how I started my training. The first day, I put on my clothes, And my belt, a brown belt. I went to training There were girls and boys. From Belgium, they were training. Then they saw me. Then I had long hair. I didn’t go to the hairdresser, I had no money. I didn’t look like a normal boy. I had long hair, like Chinese hair. And small eyes, They thought I was from China. The first day I started training, I was still fit. When I started training And everyone was surprised! What is that! There were small and big boys and girls, I kicked a few times have boxed a few times, And they were surprised! Really Jet Li or Jackie Chan. He’s here! They also had to cry a little bit, my trainer was super happy. One training, he said, “I’ve never seen such a karateka.” Never seen such a little one Such a big boy on his cheeks, or his head. So, my trainer, the first day, I surprised my trainer. I made my trainer satisfied. From my training. I showed him: I am a good karateka. I can train with you. But the first day, that was not training, that was an exam for me, That was exactly an exam. My trainer wanted to look at me. Are you good? Then I can continue or not. Then he decided that [name], perfect! Fantastic! amazing in English. After two months, one day, he came to me “Hey [name], there is a competition: Limburg championship. ” A championship is always a big competition. Because that is a championship. That’s not just a competition But championship. There is a Limburg championship, And I didn’t know: what is Limburg? Limburg is … I knew that the province mentions Limburg, but I didn’t know: how many villages are in Limburg. How many villages are in Limburg, I mean. So I said yes, Sensei, I’m ready! The competition was a few weeks later. So he said: now you have to start training, I said: okay. Every day I went from the center to … We were in the forest, between the forest … Here is our center, Around the center was completely forest. That is not a good example. So I went to the forest every morning , jogging, pumping a little to get ready for the competition. I wanted to achieve something. And when I was in the center, there was other boys, I always had competition with the boys to achieve something faster. Becoming a champion, going to school, to get good points. It is true with us in Afghanistan, you always had to do your best, you always have to challenge your classmates, challenge your friends. To achieve something good or something better. So, then I decided that, now I’m going to achieve something. Before my friends do something. So I started training and so, finally I went to the training, Went to the championship. To the Limburg Championship. I have achieved two medals, A gold, the other is bronze. That was very beautiful. Very good. My trainer was super happy. He was almost dancing. He gives training to people who just want to do sports, no competitions or something. Just for health and such. They have never participated in Limburg’s championship. They did not have the level to participate in Limburg championship. And I was the only boy, the first boy of the club, that I achieved gold medal for my club for Karate Ham. So they were super happy. When I came to the center, I always find, in Afghanistan too, If I had good points, then from school, When I came to home Then I’m just like that, disappointed. And my mother asks: Where is your report? Do you have good points? I say no, I don’t have good points. Don’t talk to me. Just so, I pretend that I had bad points. My sister then said: no problem [name], next time. I said: no, I don’t have a medal.
[i] You mean your was perfectionist?
[r] something like that, yes. So I said: no, I didn’t get anything I am lost. No, it doesn’t work. She said: no problem next time. And suddenly I said: No, that was a joke. I have achieved two medals. A gold and a silver. She was also very happy. I remember she was jumping really, she was a bit old, that woman, she was jumping, She had given me a hug. Well so, [name], good like that. And she said: there is a lot of people from Belgium who say bad words about refugees , about refugees, they have so many bad ideas about you. Now you have become champions. Now, that is proof to show people that those people are also human like us. And they also have talent, They can also achieve something. They also have good heart, They also have good dreams, not always like other people, I don’t know. So they were super happy. She said: now I have something in my hand. If someone asks something from me, I will say a very good example to them. And that example is: you! The next day I saw that my trainer, with two journalists, they came to the center. There is the newspaper. That was the same, the next day. They have taken photos, They interviewed me and such. After a week I was in the newspaper. And in the center, everyone was surprised. Everyone was surprised. Everyone came to me. Congratulations, congratulations. Congratulations. congratulations . Everyone was happy. And the assistants, they decided that they would no longer call me [name], They started calling me karate kid. So I became the karate kid in the center. And when I went home than they always call: hey karate kid! Not [name], but karate kid. So I became a bit familiar, in the center, There were almost 500 people in the center, women, girls, men, children, different people from different countries. So I became a bit known.
[i] Have you never experienced discrimination?
[r] Discrimination, what do you mean?
[i] discrimination, Someone who has no respect for you. Through your race, your country, Origin, your language.
[r] I saw a few assists, they had not been so friendly at first, they also had very bad ideas about us. After a while they also have calm, they have also changed. Now they had good ideas. I have heard a few times from the assistants that they had no good ideas. In the center, certainly and fixed in the center it is not an easy place. We were in such a small place. With 500 people. Different people, different countries. Different hearts, different ideas. I experienced a few times, I said I was super aggressive, so I also fought a few times. In the center, We were playing football, In the evening, it was Ramadan. I fought with football a few times, with, a boy was out Iraq, he was crazy. I was also aggressive, he was crazy too. He also fought with other people a few times. He also fought with me. Finally, the assistants, they sent him to another center. There was a boy from Iran, He was not friendly either. He had almost twelve … He almost had …
[i] warnings .
[i] warnings.
[r] Yes, warning. He had almost twelve warnings from the assistants. I also had to fight him. He had not been friendly to my brother. I always supported my brother in the center. When I hear that someone has something bad word says to my brother, Then I just went to fight not just talking, Why did you say that? Just hit immediately Or get a box. Always, always in the center, The Left Bank reception center, was that too. Because I had a plan, not a plan, I had such a feeling. Look, we’re so far from our home country, And I only have one brother. My brother, he is older than me. I have so much respect for him, he has experienced so many things with me on the way. He helped me so much. I also helped him But he also helped me. I was small, I was always sad. He always came to me. He took my head in his shoulder. He said a few times: watch champion – yes, Champion – We are men. We are men, and men never cry. He said to me a few times. “No, I’m not crying!” Then I started again! Because I missed my mother. So yes that was so. I decided myself If someone does something weird, says something bad to my brother, I don’t know, I just can’t control myself, sometimes I’m weird. Sometimes I’m just like that. But I don’t like to hear bad words about myself, because we have experienced enough, we have experienced a lot of things. Not just us, Maybe other people, but it is not intended that, if you have experienced something, you should not say bad words. I am also a boy who – I always let something inside. It is super difficult for me to talk. The assistants, they also had a hard time because they couldn’t, easily talk to me. If you ask something I say no. That’s my problem. I always say to other people, that’s my problem. I have to solve myself. I never say – most people, they love to talk. They think that when we talk about something, then something becomes easier. But that doesn’t work for me. When I talk about before, about bad things, get worse. But not better. That gets worse. It’s true.
[i] How did you feel when you were recognized?
[r] We had to wait a long time. We had to wait two years for our interview. That was not easy either. I have disappointed a few times because there were other people, they completed their procedure faster. They have been recognized faster. So I was completely disappointed. Those were the most important things, I participated twice in the Flemish Championship. And second time I am, I was in First stage, always the gold medal, I also achieved my black belt when I left Limburg. Yes, my black belt, that is also a good story. So I had a brown belt. I didn’t have paper from Afghanistan, No proof that I have a brown belt. So the Leopoldsburg trainer, He told me that [name], you have to take an exam for your brown belt. I said: I’m ready. So exam, not with my trainer, But with the highest trainer in Belgium. He is an old man. He is also the Secretary General of all of Europe in Karate. So we went to Hasselt. There were a few boys from our club, And also from all of Belgium, there were athletes or karatekas who wanted to get their brown belt. We went there. I started the exam. When I finished the exam Suddenly the biggest trainer started, to explain the whole result, Who is successful, who is not. So he said: “You are successful, you are, you are …” He suddenly called: [name] from Afghanistan! He asked: “Are you from Afghanistan? I said: “Yes, I’m from Afghanistan. ” He said, “My son worked in Kabul as a soldier.” “There is very dangerous.” “I said: Ah, yes.” And then I was sad. Then I immediately thought of my mother. Immediately think of my mother. So he said: [name], Your exam was super good. You passed brown belt. But now you go directly to the black belt. The difference is: If you get a brown belt, you have to train hard for three years, do a few internships, Doing a few competitions, then you are ready to go to the black belt. Black belt is like trainer, If you have your black belt. So I have been for my brown belt, and the same day I achieved my black belt. Yes. I had so much talent. I had – not now. I achieved my black belt, when my trainer: “Wow, he has . .. our biggest trainer also said that in my life, in my karate career, I have never experienced this way a boy comes for his brown belt, comes to do the exam and then pass directly for the black belt. I am also the only boy in the entire European Union who has experienced something like that. That was also a good story. Yes, I am disappointed a few times that … Yes, Flemish champion. If you become a Flemish champion, you are immediately registered for the Belgian Championship. Immediately! I am registered, I started training, I was in Limburg, in reception center Left Bank. I had a small room, and I went every day After school my bed … My room was small. My club was in Limburg, I didn’t have that much money to go there every day for training. That was also a bit far. Almost 1 hour and 20 minutes by train. And also an extra bus. I always did my bed to the other side, and I started training in my room. In my room, I closed the curtain, nobody can see that. I made a sign on the wall a few times. I said: you have to kick there. So I did everything myself. For the Flemish Championship too. I did everything myself in my room Small room. From three out of two, something like that. So I started: hard training, hard training, that I am ready for it Belgian championship, that was very important to me. Suddenly, tomorrow, no the day after tomorrow it is Belgian championship, suddenly I received an e-mail from Brussels that I cannot participate in the Belgian Championship because I have no nationality. Don’t have a piece of paper. Then I am disappointed I was super angry. I went to the director of the center, he also explained: No, that’s not possible. You are a refugee. There was a large mirror in the toilet. I have … I was so angry that I broke him. The mirror was completely broken. I also had wounds on my arms. I also had a lot of blood. I went to my room, I closed my door, and I sat there for almost three days and three nights. Nothing ate and such, Disappointed completely. My brother came to my room every day. “[name] please, do it for me, come out.” Do it for your mother. That’s how I finally got out of my room. It happened twice. Once in 2017, and the last time was in 2018 when I was here. I also participated in the Flemish Championship. Then I achieved the first gold medal, and I was immediately registered for the Belgian Championship. The Belgian championship is very important for me, if you do the Belgian championship, then you can go abroad for the European Championship, I don’t know, Olympic or something. I have received bad news twice: you cannot participate in it Belgian championship. Because I have no nationality. That is not fair, I think. From Belgium, that is really not fair. I also decided to stop karate. I stopped karate for five months. I have thrown everything away: my cup, my clothes, everything thrown away. I was super angry. I said: I put so much time in it, so hard training. I had to … I also had seven euros a week when I was in the center, I had so much money. Every week I paid 14 euros for a train ticket to go to Leopoldsburg for the training. When I was in the center, I was disappointed a few times, also from Belgian championship, Also from the people. Not from the people, from commissioner. Because there were people, They have become recognized faster.
[i] That was 2018?
[r] Yes.
[i] When was it?
[r] when I became recognized. That was September 20, 2017.
[i] almost a year.
[r] almost a year, yes. No.
[i] More than a year?
[r] more than a year. A good year.
[i] Now you study?
[r] I am currently working. When I was in the center, I was in the OKAN class for Dutch and such. I went to two schools when I was in Leopoldsburg, I went to the Sint-Michielschool, that is a Catholic school. And when I was in a reception center Left bank was, I went to Sint-Lodewijk. That is also a Catholic school at the Meir. At the end of 2017 I was done with the OKAN class. I completed my studies. I was ready to go to the normal school. Then I had a plan for a nurse – Nurse, I mean. I did an exemption test for this, no, not exemption but admission test, admission test for this, for HBO5 Nursing, Higher vocational education. I did not succeed there. The reason was that the exam was on the computer and when you finished a question, then you didn’t have to close your page, but I did. I have lost my chance to continue the exam. So I had to stop the exam. But now I am happy, happy, I did not succeed. Because if I think now, when I see, someone with wounds, with pain, with blood, then I start to shake. I can’t work well, I’m, I’m a bit disabled. Fortunately, if I had to study for nurse, I have to go to hospital, then I have to take care of the people who have wounds, who have blood, who are in pain. That would not have been so easy for me. So I am happy at the moment. I am currently working for my secondary diploma. I already have a secondary diploma from Afghanistan but still. It is not valid in Belgium. The rules are completely different from Afghanistan and here. The study, the school is completely different. I finally decided to get my secondary diploma again. I am currently working on accounting. Certainly if I study another year, or a good year, I mean a year and three months, then I will be done with my diploma. I don’t like accounting, mathematics. I like math, But math does not love me. I like math, But math does not love me. I have chosen accounting, that’s not what I want, accounting, to sit behind the computer, work with numbers. But I have a plan for later. I want to study management. If you want to study management, at the university or in University of Applied Sciences. Then accounting is the best choice to study management. So I chose accounting, When I’m done with my diploma, I will start management. For later I have a plan to have my own business. A small business, a small company. It is also not easy. It will be super difficult. But I’m always going to do my best.
[i] My last question: How do you see the difference between your culture, your faith and here in Belgium?
[r] There is a big difference between my culture, and here. Here, the people from here, they always want, they want to stay alone. If you have to go to someone then you have to make an appointment in advance. A month before, or a week before. You always have to call and such. But in Afghanistan that is not the case. If you want to visit, Then you just go immediately. Beaten behind the door and then you enter. Here you sometimes get visitors, but in Afghanistan, we had visitors every evening. From family, from uncle, from grandfathers and such. So there is a big difference between cultures. I can’t explain that well Because I don’t study any culture. Also about faith. Of course, in Afghanistan, When I was in Afghanistan, we were – I was born in a Muslim family. Alhamdulillah I am still a Muslim. Faith is personal [personal]. That is nothing to say to other people. I am a Muslim, you must also be a Muslim. Everyone has their own faith. Everyone has their own idea. Everyone has their own good points and also bad points. For me, culture, or religion is also important, but for me the most important thing is your heart. If you have a good heart, if you are smart in your head, then you are a good person. Then everyone will be happy. If you make everyone happy, that’s very important, I think.
[i] [name], thank you very much for your time. It was really enriching to hear your story.
[r] thanks to my mother, my father, my brother, my trainers, and you.
[i] Very small question: What is your dream for the future?
[r] My dream? My biggest dream to see my mother again. Not once, I want to live with my mother. I have a lot of plans for my mother. I have another dream of my little brothers, they are busy with secondary education, when they finished education I want to send them to India for pilot, because that was my dream. But now, then I heard my little brother, now he has a dream to become a pilot. That is my big dream. My other big dream is that I can do something for Belgium. I am very, not very, Yes, I am very disappointed by the Belgians, by the rules, But I am grateful from Belgium Because when I was in the center I had a roof, I had a room, I had food three times a day to eat. So I also want to achieve something for Belgium. I don’t know what, By study or by karate. But karate is easier. When I go to the Olympic Games, or to the European Championship, When I get a medal, Then it’s for Belgium. So that is, I also have a plan to achieve something for Belgium. Or to write a nice book for Belgian people to something new to learn from people, That they really have to be grateful. Because they are lucky. They are not like other people. I mean other people of, the people of Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq or Iran. I don’t know what. I am grateful from Belgium.
[i] Thank you, [name].
[r] please. [Images of newspaper articles Limburg Champion Karate, photos, cups]