SU_A_09

[i] [name], can you present yourself?
[r] My name is [name]. I’m from Gaza, from Palestine. I’m a filmmaker and theatre actor. I am a husband. I’m married. I have two kids. [name] is nine years old and [name] is seven years old. Now I’m working as an audiovisual and communication assistant at Caritas Belgium in Brussels. And I’m a little bit busy with some documentary movies and theatre work.
[i] You told me that you’re from Palestine. Can you tell me something more about your youth?
[r] Well, growing up in Palestine is something different. It’s not like growing up in Belgium or like in Egypt or UAE. It is very special. Because in Palestine you have to grow up very early. Like when you are ten years old, especially in my time, the first intifada, we woke up on the occupation. So you don’t have time for your childhood.
[i] When were you born?
[r] I was born in 1981. So when I was six years old, the first intifada was already there. So you don’t have really time to have a normal childhood. You need to grow up very early. You understand everything very early. We speak politics like… Any kid speaks about toys. So yes, it’s different. But it’s very good for us. Because it gives you as a man… And I’m sorry, I don’t mean to disrespect women. Because our women are stronger than us. Like a Palestinian woman, I don’t know how to appreciate her. Because she’s our idol. But to grow up there, it’s… I think it’s very useful. Because afterward, we have seen something worse. So I believe that we are prepared very early to cope with the first war, second war and third war in Gaza. And then moving here. So going through all this, it’s not easy. So I thank Gaza that we are strong enough for this. Otherwise, we should be in collapse now.
[i] And in what kind of a home did you grow up?
[r] Well, I am in love with my childhood. Because we were living in a very isolated area. We have… not an isolated area, but… Like there is, you know, very crowded places where I have born. And when I was six years old, my father, he moved a little bit outside. So not like here. Outside I mean like 200 meters away, 300 meters away. So I had… I was working as a bird hunter. Birds hunter. Yeah, I love… I know… And here in Belgium, you have a very, very unique and expensive birds. I have seen like… People don’t understand what is this. And I used to play football since I was really six, seven years old. I played in very different famous clubs in Gaza. And then I played with the national team when… until I was like 18 years old. But after leaving Gaza to Egypt to study, I stopped with this.
[i] And last time you told me that you were born as a refugee. Can you tell me something more about this?
[r] Yes. Being a refugee. That… this word like… I hate it. Because it’s… it’s like my ID. Like I shouldn’t say my name is [name]. I think I have to say my name is refugee. Because I have born as a refugee. I lived as a refugee. I raised as a refugee. And now I am a refugee. And people like… looking at you like you are like stealing something. Or you have no enough rice. Or you are illiterate. Or you are a gold digger. But in fact, we are not.
[i] And how come you were born as a refugee?
[r] Well… Palestine have been under occupation since like ages. But somehow… Balfour, the Prime Minister of Britain… Great Britain… He gave a promise to the Jew people that we will give you a land. And… apparently this land should have no people. So they found some piece of land called Palestine. And they said it’s a land without people for people without land. I don’t know how. If it’s a land without people… I need to ask my father and grandfather and like… From where you are guys? Because I believe when I go back to our history… I see that my father, my grandfather, my… Like all the generation… They have born this land called Palestine. But if you go to an Israeli… And you ask him where your father have born… Or your grandfather… He will say Russia, Poland. So the second generation even is not there. So… You know… and then… After 1948… There is the war and the declaration of Israel. And we become refugee. They took our villages. They took our land. And we have to flee. We had to flee. And the thing is… When you flee… When there is a crisis or a war… You leave. And then… The international organization… They build camps for you. Just to… Shelters. Like what happened in Syria and Iraq and here and there. But not in the Palestinian case. When the Palestinians had to leave… And they flee out of Palestine… They found the camps are already there. So it’s like… You know… It’s a very… Theater work. It’s a play. It’s a game. Because… When you read our history… It’s there. They leave and they found the shelters waiting for them. So someone already knows that there is something going to happen. So… Let them like… Eat. They might forget. Let them have some… Warmth. They might forget. So I became a refugee.
[i] And from where were you?
[r] Well, I’m from a village. From a village called Al-Kofaka. Originally. It’s like… A small village. It’s like… Like a Provence Antwerp. But it’s a Provence of Gaza. But it’s not in Gaza. But like… It’s really close to Gaza. And… Afterward… Now it’s… A farm for Sharon. Before he died. He was using this as his own… place. And he has like… As I heard from my family. He had farms and cows and I don’t know what else there. So yeah. In Palestine… In Gaza there is about two million. The population about two million. But 80% of them are refugees. I grew up like… Being a refugee in Gaza. Especially in Gaza. It’s a very bad. Because they teach you the discrimination while you’re a kid. The United Nations and the occupation. These things… No one noticed. But I grew up noticing this. Do you know when you walk on the street. You know if… Who is a refugee and who is not. From your uniform. A boy who goes to… A refugee boy. He wears… A different uniform. Than the boy that he born in Gaza. You’re a Palestinian. He’s Palestinian. And you both living in the same city. Door by door. But when we walk on the street. You know. He’s from Gaza. Originally from Gaza. And I am a refugee. So you walk like this. Because you’re a refugee. Even the… The colloquium that we study is different. We study something from Jordan. And the people who… Who originally from Gaza. Study something from Egypt.
[i] Do I understand well that… As a refugee in Gaza. You need to wear different clothes?
[r] Yes.
[i] And how do those clothes look like then?
[r] We go even to different clinics. We go to different clinics. It’s refugee clinics. So you have this refugee world as a stamp. As a trademark. Wherever you go. If you came out of this place. You don’t need to go to say I’m a refugee. Because you came out of a refugee center. That’s it. If you go out from this school. You don’t have to speak. Your clothes. Like your uniform. Like saying. And it was like… Our uniform was like the UN flag. White. Stripped. White and blue. White and blue. White and blue. Yes. Because you’re a refugee. At the same time as… If I remember very well. The people from Gaza. Like originally Gaza people. It was like… Blue. Sorry. For male. Boys. We were wearing blue. Like sky blue. Shirt. And girls wearing strip. White and blue. Now I remember. And that originally from Gaza. The kids they were I think. Green or something like this. But yeah. You can… Discrimination. They teach us this. Without telling us. You know. It’s like the poison you give in the media. You use advertisement. I’m not telling you to buy this. But you will be addicted to this. By seeing this everyday. And from that point. But now I’m really thankful to our awareness that we got it. But at that time. In my… Like when I was young. Even if you are like Gazan. You don’t marry from refugee. And if you are refugee. Palestinian. You don’t marry from Gazan people. It was very bad. Because at that time people wasn’t like really educated. And it was very easy to manipulate their mind. You are from Gaza. You have the wealth. The refugee. This is what the Israelis used to do.
[i] Was there then a big discrimination towards refugees?
[r] Not from the Gazan people. Not from the Gazan people. But it’s like the poison. Like it was in the air. You know like someone keep whispering in your ear. You know this guy is bad. But you know he is your brother. But still he is stealing your shirt. You know. Why? It’s like this. But when he said between you and yourself. He said. Come on. He is Palestinian like me. Yeah. It was very bad. I was young. But I have noticed this. Why? Why we were different? You know. In the school. I really remember. When we were like standing in a line. Waiting to have shirts. New shirts. Waiting to have new bag. Because sometimes you go two, three, four years. With the same bag. And you need to refine it. But yeah. We are good.
[i] And can you tell me something more about your father and your mother?
[r] Well. My father and my mother. They are illiterate. Both of them. But they love education to death. My father did everything he can to educate us. And he used to say. This is the last line to stay alive. Don’t ever give up. And I… Yeah. He was punishing us if we fail. Because he doesn’t like this. He is illiterate. My mother is illiterate. And we were nine boys and one girl. Seven of us have a bachelor degree Seven of us. Six of us, sorry, six of us have a bachelors degree. He sent one to study in United States. He sent one to study in Russia. He sent one to study in Egypt And he sent one to study in Jordan. And my sister, she is a poem [poet] Poem, she writes poems. dichter in Netherlands. Yes, and he loves to see us growing up well educated. And my mother’s mission was to raise us with respect. I haven’t seen, yeah because she’s my all, but I haven’t seen someone teaching her boys to respect women like my mom. Do whatever you want, but never, ever insult a woman. Not with a word, not with a look, not with anything. The day you insult a woman, you need to consider that you lost your manhood. And she used to teach us from Islam. You’re a Muslim? Yes. Read Muhammad, how he was respecting his wives. After even… one of them was… What did is, he keep respecting her friends in respect of her. Don’t ever do this. So, yeah, I feel so lucky. And he was, my father was like really support, like a huge support to me. Even in football, even in my work as a filmmaker. He used to come and watch us and I was very happy.
[i] What were their professions?
[r] My professions? My father?
[i] Yeah, from your parents.
[r] Wow. My father, he did everything. You know, when you leave your country, like when I arrived here to Belgium, you just need to work. You need to prove that I am not just a number. I am not a document. I am a human being and I can be… Like I can do something. And from his speech, because I wasn’t born yet, he worked in a clothing shop. He worked in a slagerij[butchery], meat. Yeah, selling meat. He worked as a carpenter. He worked in the construction sector. He did everything to keep us strong and educated. And my mother, I believe she was helping him by doing dresses for weddings for women. And when I grow up, I still remember when she was like, [name], can you put the… What is it called? You know, this little things…
[i] The wire.
[r] The wire, how to put it inside. Because she started losing her like, you know, the effective of her eyes. Can you put it in this small hole? And she keeps doing this. And even though she was illiterate, she was sitting next to us to teach us how to write. She didn’t know what we were writing. But you know, writing is like a drawing. She was following the line of the letters, how it should be. And she look… doesn’t look the same. You need to repeat it. Even she don’t know what’s the letter it is. It’s A of P of T of S. She don’t know. But the drawing is… It’s not the same. Okay, erase it. Do it again.
[i] How come that your parents found education so important?
[r] Well, in Palestine, especially in Gaza, if you go to the studies, Palestinian and Gazan people, they have the highest education percentage in the Arab world. The last studies said like, yeah, you can’t find even 1.11 like something like 0,0001 literate in Palestine. We are the highest high diplomas holders in the Arab world. Palestinian and Gazan. We have… If you go to Jordan and to Gulf area, you’ll find that like the CEO and you’ll find the highest positions are for the Palestinian. So when you are under occupation and you have no power, I think in a way or another, we followed the Japanese theory. Your last shield is to be educated. Otherwise you’ll be like a toy. Anyone takes you left and right. I don’t know how we got this. But if you look at this, you will find the same thing. You’re under occupation, you’re not allowed to do anything and no one is caring about you. So like go out of the dust and try to do something for yourself. Yeah, you can’t find like the percentage of our literate people in Palestine. It’s almost zero. Almost zero. You can’t say zero, but it’s almost zero. So it’s not just us. It’s the general situation in Palestine.
[i] And how was the relationship with your brothers and sisters when you were young? Did you have a nice time with them?
[r] Well, we have until now, we have the big five and the small four. We have the big five, like all the old five and the youngest four. Because my sister came in the middle and she made this separation. So we have the youngest four. [name], [name], [name], [name]. I am the youngest one ever. And this we have [name] and then [name], [name], [name], [name], [name]. So these big five or all five, they are like the commissioner general in the United Nations. And because for me, each and every one of them, he is my father, because they were working very hard since they were young. They were working, doing everything, helping my father to raise us. So they have the same appreciation. And we are the young four. You know, we are the young four. We used to play, but we are friends. We used to play cards together. And since we are a football family, we are really, all of us, we are a football family, Well, in just one or two, one, he don’t like to play football, but we are a football family, so we used to play together. Even when you’re young, like me, but I was like really a good player. And if when you’re old, you still have the touch. So sometimes we do our team by ourself and we go play because there is, you know, there is competition between like neighbors, not professional, but it’s neighbors, like everyone brings his team and we go and do this. And our team was our family. Well, my brother, that was just we go. So it was good. And also play like hunting birds. It was our hobby and sometimes it’s good financially because there is some birds are like really expensive, really.
[i] How did you hunt birds?
[r] Well, it’s it’s industry. You need buy net, you know, you make the net, you buy the net and you need to know the … … the measurements of the net and you need to do double net or one net and how much you need to be far away. And then you need to teach one of these bird. You need to teach him. First, you tied him in a very professional and unique way. And you need. And then you linked him to a piece of food and this piece of would link to you where you’re hiding. And this this takes about a week teaching this bird. When you do the wood like this, He needs to fly and come back to the wood. Then the birds in the sky can see him. If he falls down from the wood, they will run. So we keep teaching him that he flies and he comes down. He flies and he comes down. And then the other bird sees him and they can follow him. On the other hand, you have another bird. He needs to be in his cage. And that we call the Zaaig. In our language, it’s called Zaaig. Zaaig is the one who keeps shouting on people, like, I’m here. But this one, he needs to have a very unique voice. He sings very well. Not anyone could be in his position. He’s the maestro. And that takes you a long time trying to find who is Zaaig, who is the best one, who is with the unique language. Until you catch them. And it is very expensive. And there are some birds that are very expensive because when you have the egg, we put them in a very dark room until the babies come. And then they stay in this dark room for three to six months. And we play that because these kind of birds can learn other language. So if you have Hassoun, this Hassoun could take some letters from other bird called the Dweri. If this Hassoun takes these letters, like, he will lose a lot of his… a lot of money. Like, I don’t know, I forget the word. So we keep him in a very dark room and we keep playing the unique. You buy a CD with the songs, his language, but the unique one with no fault, with no mistake. And you keep playing to this bird six months till he take it. If he took it 100% right. Some of these Hassoun, and you think I’m lying, some of these birds could go up to six or five thousand euros. Yes.
[i] And you sold one of these birds?
[r] A lot. A lot. But it takes like… it’s industry. Sorry, I have to cut it. Okay, I sit again. Okay. This is the bird story. Okay. And this bird, it comes originally from Norway. The original country for these birds. It’s Norway. And I’ve seen it here in Belgium a lot in their way too. Because they live in the very cold weather, searching for a warmer place. So they arrive to Palestine starting from September. But now because the weather is changing, they start arriving in February. Sorry, in November to February. And you need to go up very early, 4 a.m. You need to go out when it’s dark. And you put everything. Because they arrive really with the first sign of sun. They arrive. So just 3-4 hours and then you go home. Yes.
[i] How did your house look when you grew up as a boy?
[r] As a boy, I was born in a neighborhood called Sabra. It’s a very highly crowded place. And we were 10. My two oldest brothers have married there. And my father and mother for sure. And that house was like one, two, three, four bedrooms. One for a married guy. Second for a married guy. Third for my father and mother. And the other eight, we sleep together. Yes. And for us it was good. Because at that period, before the first intifada, There was no fear. We call it the open door. The neighbors, no one closes his door before he’s going to sleep. And you know this bread and dish and food and cooking, sometimes you find on your table, we wouldn’t have a table when we eat on the ground, you find like about 10 to 15 different kinds of food. It’s from the whole neighborhood. And your food is everywhere and their food is everywhere. It’s like this. I miss this time. During the night, I believe we and other family, they had a television at that time. And during the night, you find the men, two groups, watching TV here or watching TV there. Like 50 men here and 60 men there. And they’re watching TV because… And we have at that time at first, I believe, one Jordanian channel and two Egyptian channels. They were watching. And women sitting somewhere and bubbling and chatting.
[i] Your family had a TV?
[r] Yes. We are one of the two families in the whole neighborhood that they had TV at that time. And I still remember we were the first family that they had a telephone line. Yes, at that time. I remember this very well. And we had a dog.
[i] How come you had so many… or the newest technology at that time?
[r] As I told you, my father worked in different sectors. And at that time, unfortunately, he had to work in what we call now Israel. And when he worked there, the salary is higher than working in Gaza. So he was like leaving for two months continuously with my two big brothers to work in Israel or what we called Israel. I believe… I would love to say to the occupied territories in 1948 and the salary is really high comparing with the salary in Gaza. So when he come back, he come with different stuff. So we were happy. And then we moved to the new home and that was like really my childhood, like hunting birds. My whole day was outside. Either playing football or hunting birds. At the school, I was really a braaf [good] kid. I was like one… Always one of the top five. I don’t know how, but I was like really… I love to study. I love to be educated. And now like I’m working too hard. Sometimes I feel I’m pushing my kids. [name] is nine, [name] is seven and he speaks three languages. And for me, it’s not enough.
[i] What languages do they speak?
[r] They speak for sure, they’re Arabic, English and Dutch. [name] speaks a little bit also, some Spanish and few, little few words French. So for me, I… Being, as I told you, being under occupation, education is your last scapegoat, your last shelter. For me, there is no chance to be uneducated. You’ll never be poor when you are educated. You’ll never be weak if you are educated. It’s here. And what you have here, you’ll never lose it. And unless you’re dead, you’re dead. So that’s what I need them to know. Like, keep it here. Wealth, money, we have in Palestine, I say it’s called the dirt of hands. Money is the dirt of hands because it comes from dirt, the hands, you work. So you can work again. When you lose money, you go work, and you can bring it. But if you lose education, you lose your trust in yourself, you lose the identity, and you lose your respect. It’s the most important thing. So this is an unnegotiable point.
[i] Can you tell me something more about what you studied in Palestine?
[r] Well, I have the… just the normal school years in Palestine, and then I went to Egypt to study mass media and communication.
[i] How was it possible for you to go to Egypt?
[r] Well, this is the political thing. After 1948, and after the six days war between Israel and the Arab world, and that in 1967, and Westbank, what became to belong to Jordan. So Jordan have controlled all the situation on Westbank. Not on like… but military, it’s Israel. But it becomes like a province of Jordan. So now, if a Westbank guy, he want to go to Jordan, he just go to Jordan. If a guy from Gaza, he want to go to Jordan, it’s easier to go to heaven. Yeah, because you are from Gaza, come on. You know? You can’t do this. And the same thing was Gaza people and Egypt. Egypt was running our like education and this kind of things. And that was the sort of solution between the big power countries. Like, you know, Egypt, here is Gaza take lead here and try to like to assist and facilitate their life in a way or another. And you, Jordan, we’ll give you some money also and you try to facilitate Palestinian and Westbank and wherever. And we are like in between. So that going to Egypt wasn’t like difficult. It was like really easy. Not like now. Now it’s like real difficult. It’s like… Yeah, now literally go to heaven is easier than going to Egypt. After the military coup and everything was become bad. Like sometimes the borders open three, four, five days a year. A lot of people died waiting just to go for a medication or a surgery or like something like this. A lot of people, they lose their residency in many countries because they like they stuck inside. For me, when I brought my kids and we will come to this point to here after I get recognized as a refugee and I did the family reunion, I have to bring my family. Four months they had the visas but they couldn’t go out because the border was closed. And when the border opened, I had to pay $3,000 black money, corruption money for 300 meters. So now it’s different story. But at that time, yeah, I went to Egypt to study and then I studied mass media and communication arts.
[i] In which city did you study?
[r] In Cairo. But there is a city called 6 October and it’s Provence. Cairo, like one of the Cairo, like gemeente [municipality].
[i] And which year was it?
[r] 1999. Yeah, 1999, 2000. Yeah, the school year 1999, 2000. A little bit old. Oh my God. We become old. I haven’t noticed this.
[i] And you lived in Egypt while you were studying there?
[r] Yes, I lived in Egypt. But like the first two years it was easy because this the second intifada wasn’t beginning yet. So it was easy. It was like the border was open 24 hours and by car from my place to my house in Gaza six hours. So it’s nothing. So it was for me back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And it was like really cheap. But after the second intifada, it’s different story. Borders closed and military everywhere. And yeah, it wasn’t very safe. And the thing during the Israelis was controlling Gaza borders, it was very tricky when you are in the last year. Like for me, when I finished the third year, I never visited Gaza because they let you go inside, visit your family. And in the last year or the last semester when you’re going out to complete your or to finish your study, they hold you on the borders and they ask you, where are you going? I’m going to Egypt. Why? I’m going to finish my studies. I have just six months left. And I will be graduated. Okay. This is the deal. Cooperate with us or you go back home. So you become a spy. Yes. Sometimes you go for medication. This is what the occupation does and doing every day. Sometimes you go for education. Sometimes you go for surgery or medication. And they stop you. And they know that this guy, he is like a cancer. He had a cancer and he needs really to go for medication. And they use this guard against him. Okay. We know, they know everything by the way. We know that you have really reserved a room in this hospital and your operation will take place this day. But yeah, we need more cooperation.
[i] And what does it mean exactly cooperation?
[r] To be a spy for the enemy. To be a traitor. To fill down your country.
[i] And what did you tell them?
[r] That’s why I never came back. I went back and forth first two years. The first half of the third year and then. .. Because my brothers like they have like have been taken in a jail and there is a real jail like many, many, many times. And they know this. I still remember my older brother he told me in the last visit to Gaza. He said, if I see your face here again before you are having your diploma you will be dead. Go. Never come back. Unless you have your diploma in your hand. And then if you stop there you have your diploma. That’s literally what he said to me. This is the last year and a half. We have seen you enough in this the first two years and a half. Go. If I see your face here again before having your diploma you’ll be dead. You’ll be dead. You know this is our language in Palestine. I’m not dead like killing you but like it won’t be nice. Like you would face because they work and they paid a lot to me to be educated to have this diploma. So don’t come back now. Stay there. If we could manage to visit you we’ll visit you. Like it’s okay. Just stay there. Because we know how they play with this card. For me I faced this situation two times. One time I met the Israelis at Rafah border and they trying to manipulate and try to use this. A second time in 2010 I went to Israel to the United States for like it’s a course called Art and Coexist and after this course we had like we should meet in the American Embassy in Israel in Jerusalem. And to go there you need to go by the Israeli border Erez. And it’s like no you’re not allowed. When I had the visa and it’s a very funny story. When I had the first American visa you need to go to the embassy or the consulate to make the interview and then they give you the visa and you go home. So the Americans managed to give me permission to go by through Erez Erez checkpoint between Gaza and Israel and to go to the American consulate to do the interview. When I went there for sure they you go like really they examine everything. I found an armored vehicle waiting for me on the other the other side of the border me and another three Gazan people where they are already going to the American Embassy or a consulate. An armored vehicle. They took us from the border the checkpoint direct to the consulate. We had the interview the same armored vehicle waiting for us. They took us from the consulate back to Gaza. Armored vehicle. So two or three weeks later I have to travel to the States. And the easiest way is to go by Erez to Jordan from Jordan I fly. They really said no. Why? They said it’s like security concerns. And the guy from the consulate he told them by the way he was here three weeks ago. How come in three weeks these security concerns come up? They said no he wasn’t here. He said no? He came? Yes? No? Yes? No? Yes? No? They said okay. He’s not allowed. And had to go through Egypt. Yes. It’s like this. It’s like this. Being under occupation is something different. But being educated and to know what’s their goal what they aim it makes it easier to you. It makes… yeah. We had in the same childhood as I said as any other kid. We grow up very early. I was in my first university 19 years old. And everyone literally was talking to me as if I am 24, 25. Literally. No one gave me or anyone in Gaza his right age. Because we have seen enough. We grow up very early. I think we had to. We don’t have… There is no chances you know. Yeah. There is no grey. Black or white in Gaza.
[i] And after your studies you went working?
[r] Yes. After my studies I got myself like really busy. You know [name]? Like really busy. I was working 3, 4 jobs a day. The same day. I was working with the UN. I have been working with in UNRWA United Nations United. I forget the name. Okay. I used to work in United. .. UNRWA It is called United Nations works for United Nations relief and works agency for Palestinian refugees in the Near East. This is the biggest organization that their work is to take care of Palestinian refugees in the Near East. Their operation places…
[i] Near East?
[r] Yeah.
[i] The middle. The Near East.
[r] Near East. It is like this. They work in Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. I worked there for 6 years as a public information assistant.
[i] And what does that mean?
[r] What? Public information assistant. I did… Well, I was leading a program it is called Summer Games. And we were aiming to give fun to a quarter million of Gaza kids afterwards. So, we came with this plan that come on, these kids have seen enough. Let’s try to do something funny for them. So, we launched something called Summer Games. And this is just a special thing in Gaza. And we… During the summer vacation we turned all the UN schools see? UN schools as I told you. It’s UN schools. We turned them to a play zone from shelter. from schools because these schools one day become shelters during the war and then it becomes school for education and then it becomes a playground. So, we turned it to playgrounds for the schools and also we build… we started building about 25 to 35 play place on the beach on the strand. And this is for quarter million 250,000 kids. And we were employing about 7,000 newly graduated just for three months. So, I was leading this project as the public information assistant for this project. For sure I have the head department I need to go through. And I was the filmmaker for all the documentary movies during my time there when I started working because first I was working in the relief and social department and then I went to work with the public information department. So, during my time in the public information department I worked as a filmmaker. I also was working as a theater actor assistant director and drama teacher with Pesma Institute.
[i] Pesma Institute?
[r] Yeah.
[i] What kind of an institute?
[r] It’s just just for art and theater.
[i] In Gaza?
[r] In Gaza. And during my time with Pesma we had the first mobile theater in Gaza. And our goal is to go to the buffer zones. Our goal was to go to the really isolated area. We were playing on this mobile theater. It’s like a van and we just bring the theater out and you build it and we make like a shade and we make everything. Like we play here and the tank of the Israelis is there. I mean it literally. We were playing everywhere. And this project was for me the golden boy that turned my life. Because I have seen places now when I came to Belgium and you know during the interview in the commissariat they ask you what you know in Gaza. They want to make sure that you’re from Gaza. I told to the protection officer if you want I can I could draw Gaza street by street. Like really from east to west south to north I draw it. So that was my work and I have I was working also in a production company called Mayadeen. Sorry. Shaheen Media. As a filmmaker a cameraman and editor. I was doing we were doing everything. At the same time I start working with B’Tselem. It’s a humanitarian like it’s a human rights and information Israeli center in the occupied territory. So yes, my life was all about work, work, work. I don’t have time I really had no time. I … if you ask: where is [name]? He is not here.
[i] How come that you work so hard? When I was 16 to 17, I had a say that I used to say to one of … I used to say: I will never be a number. It was my goal. I’m not coming up with this because this was, I used to say, when I was 16 to 17. I knew by that time I could do something. And I used to say to everyone when I ask you, I will never be another number. I need to do something. I didn’t do what I really was dreaming to because, yeah, life doesn’t give you only what you want. But so far I’m satisfied. I was 30 years old and I’m a married guy. I have two kids. I have my own apartment. I have my own international job. I have my own work. I had my luxury life. So at that age, having done everything, all this, I think I was like a bliss. And I was like really lucky guy. It’s a bliss. I believe it’s a bliss. I didn’t achieve what I was like really dreaming to.
[i] What was your dream then? What is your dream then?
[r] While I’m in Egypt, I worked in the cinema sector. Like a professional and with these very famous actors and directors. And I worked with a guy who called Rami Imam. [knock on the door] Yeah, they arrived. I have to cut. During my work there, I was working with Rami Imam. And he’s a son of Adel Imam. Adel Imam is the most famous actor in the whole Arab world. And he’s a son of him. And it happened that I lived in a place that he even had his own theater. Adel Imam. And Rami was directing one of his plays. And it was 2 or 3 a.m. You know, Cairo never sleeps. It’s not like Belgium. They literally never sleep. You go out at 2 a.m., 3 a.m., 4 a.m. You find something, you eat, and you do everything. And living alone, I need to go to buy something. And it was this big billboard, lighted. And there is Adel Imam and his picture. And here is Rami, his name, big. At that time, I was working with Rami. And I was like looking at this picture. I said, one day, my picture will be like yours. Or at least my name will be like your son. So it was my dream. If I stayed in Egypt, I think I would achieve some of this. But I’m happy that I didn’t. Because it’s not my lifestyle. No, it’s not my lifestyle. Now, after looking back, yeah, I would like to achieve this. But it’s not my lifestyle. I wouldn’t be happy with these lights. You know me. It wouldn’t be my lifestyle. But then I went back to Gaza and started working. I copied my documents, my CV and everything. And I was going door by door to the production companies. Literally door by door. There are some big buildings. It’s known that these buildings are for press agencies and production companies. I was copying like 50, 60, 70 copies of these. And I go door by door. I go to the 15th floor and then I go one by one, one by one. And I go to the second building. I never felt that I would not have a chance. This feeling I never had. I used to have the feeling like, okay, not today, maybe tomorrow. Not tomorrow, maybe the day after. And it happens like this. I start the first time. It’s good. Okay. I’m not paid. Maakt niet uit. [It doesn’t matter] It’s okay. I get experience. Second time here. Third time here. Fourth time here. Fifth time I get a little, like really little money. I was very happy. I was like, oh my God. It’s like to compare it with here in Egypt, in Belgium, 20 euros, 25 euros. But for me, wow. Even I was getting money when I was a kid. I started really working when I was 7 years old. I started literally working when I was 7 years old. I was going to the farmer. And I work with the farmers and their farms and for vegetables and fruits and do this and that. I work for money. I know from where it comes. It comes from here. That comes from the sky. No, no, no. Money comes from efforts. You do effort, you get money. You keep sleeping, that’s it. Sky will never bring you money. But because this money came from my… after studying, you know, it has something special. So, and then a theater director has seen me and he said, I like your character. Would you like to try something else? Yeah, I would love to do this. And it works. Yeah, first time it was like same. And then I become the first face in all his plays. Like whenever he has a project, he calls me.
[i] What kind of plays?
[r] Well, it is also about education. It is also like… Education and Palestine. But we never speak direct. I hate to read a text and there is direct messages. I hate this. Your audience are not idiots. They know. Because I never believed that theater have to give you solutions. No. They highlight the problem. They give you signs, hints. And it’s up to you then. So we start working this, doing this. Sometimes we work about… We go to this buffer zone because people there is not 100% educated. And sometimes we used to talk about health, sexual things, education things. But in a very polite way and a funny way. You keep laughing. And one of the mind blowing things somewhere. I… Like… I was doing a role in a theater play. Like… Let’s say 7, 8 years ago. After 7 years, 8 years I was in a school. In a high school. Secondary… onderwijs [education]. And there is a girl. She came to me and said, Hey Zata. It was my name in the play. I was like… I was like… What? She said, yeah, you. And you did 1, 2, 3. And I said like… Yeah, but it’s like about 7, 8, 9 years ago. What makes me happy that she still remembers what lessons we were giving to the kids in the schools. Because we used to go to the schools also. We study the curriculum that they study. And we study this. And we try to have it outside of the shape of a school book. The theater. More joyful for kids. Same thing. When the teacher wants to go to the lesson and teach them. We sit with teachers. And with a lot of people from the education department. And this yes and this no. Could we use this? Yes, that will help the lesson. The same theme. We do it in theater. And kids have it in their mind for 8 years. This is very nice. Sometimes we were talking about health issues. Like if people from the same family keep being married. From the same family keep… That brings diseases. After few generations. And this is in Islam even. Our prophet Muhammad said. Like try to… Like not literally I am translating this. But try when you get married. Get married from different families. Go outside. Don’t be… And people who lives in buffer zone. And they don’t have contacts with the outside. Like a man who don’t have other than his cousin or a niece. And it’s all families. And diseases comes from there. So we go there. So it was for me. Not work as much as duty. It was like a national for me. It was like a soldier who serve and protect his people and his land. Theater at that time was like this. Because everything we were doing is like education. Care. Highlighting really important issues. So I was really really happy at that time. When I was working in theater. In the second hand. I was doing the documentary movies. And it was all bloody shit movies. Because it’s all about Palestine. All about war. So there is no nice thing. You can’t see a beautiful image. Yes. As a filmmaker it’s nice. Because you did the film in a very nice way. But yes. It’s all about blood. All about war.
[i] Can you give me an example?
[r] You don’t need to. Because you know. I hate digging this kind of memory. I have seen three. And I apologize to my people that saying war. Because it’s not war. It’s an attack. War. Attack. Because war. When you say war. It’s two countries. Two armies. But here in this. In Palestine. In Gaza situation. There is no two countries. There is no two armies. So it’s not war. How could I say it war. When you have tanks. And air fighters. And everything. And a nuclear weapon. And I have a Kalashnikov. It’s not a war. It’s attack. You attack me. You attack me with F-16. And F-18. And F-35. And I attack you with a missile. Like boom. It’s just make a hole in the sand. Come on. It’s not a war. They call us terrorists. I have a lot of problems with Hamas. But they are not terrorists. For me they are not. They are freedom fighters. You need to go to the fact. That Hamas. Have been created. Or they announced themselves. As a political party. After the first intifada. I think in 97. And they launched their. Like military action. Years after that. So Hamas wasn’t there. But the occupation was there. So you are the main reason to have Hamas. And to have Fatah. And to have the other parties. So don’t blame Hamas. Everyone have like mistakes on the ground. We are not angels. We didn’t come from the sky. But let’s pretend you said. Okay I will give the Palestinians all their rights. You will not find Hamas. It’s very easy. And during Oslo agreement. Between the Palestinian Authority and Israel. From like 1996 to 2000. These four years. Why in these four years. If anyone just ask himself. Why we hadn’t any problem with the Palestinians. Why there no Palestinian throwing one stone. Stone to the Israeli side. Because the Palestinians have felt that there is hope. You stopped your attacks. You start giving us some of our rights. Borders were open. Electricity were there. So there was economy. We felt that okay. We can do something. Because there is some price coming back. So these four years could be a very good example. Like these people want to live in peace. Just give us some right. It’s not fair to take my house. No. Sort of from the beginning. It’s not fair for me to find you in the street. Homeless. You don’t have food to eat. And it’s raining. And you don’t have something to keep you warm. And from my generosity. I bring you inside my home. I give you everything. And you waited until I go to work. And you close the door. And you said it’s my home. And you don’t want me to tell you. No it’s mine. I just want to tell you it’s mine. And you don’t give me this right. It’s the whole story. Everyone knows that Palestine is for Palestinian. And some people they said … Yeah this is the mass medium, because this is my work Like the Western media, oh, this is a war between Palestinians and Jews. This is a war between Muslims and Jews. It’s not. It’s a lie. We have no problem with Jews. To be a Muslim, I need to believe in Jews as a religion. To be a Muslim, I have to believe in Christianity as a religion. I have to believe in their books. I have to believe in messengers. We can’t, as Muslims, disrespect any messenger, or any religion, or any book, because we are not allowed. Being a Muslim, we have to believe everything. So don’t say it’s between Jews. Otherwise, I am not following my Islam. It’s just between Palestinians and Zionists. If you are my brother, same blood. Same parents. And you take my home. And then you keep me outside. I will fight you. Period. It’s not about religion. It’s not culture. It’s nothing. It’s about my right. This is my home. So yes, I started working documentary, trying to show the world what the Palestinians are facing. We are under attack. We are launching missiles. Like really missiles. It’s like this. It makes some small hole in the wall. And the Israelis attack us with F-16, F-19, F-35, with the bombs with two or three tons of explosion in each one. And I try to show people. In the war of 2008, there was a family called the family. El Lafamine. In the Zaytoun neighborhood. So the Israelis invade Gaza. And in Zaytoun there is a family called El Lafamine. And all the men, that’s what we used to do. All the men, when they invade Gaza, the men try to go out because we know what should happen. That they don’t harm women or kids. But what the Israelis did, they bring all the women, all the kids. And they put them in one store. And then they shot with the airstrikes this store. And then with the tanks and bulldozers, they demolished this store. How could they know this? Because at that time I was working with human rights organization. And I witnessed with the camera a guy who had seen this by an eye. An eyewitness. He was living like far away but he saw them because it’s a very, like a farmer’s area. So if you live here or there, you see. And they didn’t allow any ambulance to go to take the dead bodies out. They kept them there for 23 days. More or less. I think less. Not the days, the number. I went there and it happens to be the third or fourth camera guy who was there. And in spite of filming, I started digging with people. And I was thin. We made a hole in the beton [concrete]. And I was like taking dead bodies, giving up. Like I give the first hand and then they start taking down, taking us from me. And I took a kid. He was three to four, five years old maximum. I grabbed him from here like this. Because he was like doing like this. I grabbed him. I still know how he was looking like. I just caught him from here and I grabbed him up. And his head… It’s something that you don’t need to show to the people. But at least you need the people to know it. That’s what’s happening here in Gaza. 2012, same. 2014, wow. Like… Gaza 2014, I was working with the UN. And for me it was very bad. Because I was a married guy with two kids. And 51 days I have to go to work. Because I’m working with the UN. And we are the only people who could reach places no one else could reach. And by the way, working with the UN is not that you are safe. No, no, no. I’ll give you some stories what they have done to UN shelters. When I say UN shelter, each and every UN shelter. On the roof, top roof. You will find we drawing on the roof, UN, the very biggest letter. And we have UN flags everywhere on these shelters. And the Israelis, they know, by the GPS, every… Because this is an agreement. When we build some shelter or installation for UN, you give the GPS the numbers where is it exactly to the Israelis. So this shelter is UN. Let’s say it’s not still under… like we still under construction. But it’s UN. They know it. And once they called… they were planning to invade Khirbet al-Adhas. It’s a neighborhood close to the Israeli border. I forget the name. And they called the UN and the Red Cross at that time. I remember literally what I’m saying. They called the UN. UN, please bring your buses… no, please open this school as a shelter for this village because we were invaded this village. And call the Red Cross to bring buses to take these people from the school to the more safe area. And what the Israelis done? They let us, as UN people, leading people to the school. And while the people in the school, they hit the school. And at that time, everyone was attacking UN. They thought that we cooperated with the Israelis to bring the people here for their last minute. To be killed here.
[i] You mean you were attacked by…
[r] By the Israelis. Yeah, we were attacked by the Palestinians. How could you believe this? I came to you and tell you, whoa, whoa, what you’re living is danger. Come to my place and we’ll bring something, transportation to take you to the city. And when I take you to my place, I bring someone else to kill you. That’s what the Israelis done. It’s like this. So, in 2014, I was a father, filmmaker who works with the UN. I can’t protect my family because I have every single day to go to work. Every time I call my wife, I’m lying. Like, I’m working, but inside, I’m not going to the buffer zone or like to very hard zone. Yeah, yeah, she knows. She knows, but I can’t do anything. It’s life. And yeah, when they invaded Shijia, in Shijia, like, you know when you make salad? You don’t know anymore where is the cucumber or where is the tomato or where is the salad. You make pieces and you just do it like this? It’s what they did in Shijia. [interviewee interrupts the interview] One second. Why did you open the door, [name]? You have to come out. No, we haven’t finished yet, because the sound of my wife. Oh, come on. We’ll film and record. Recording? Okay. [interview continues] So, that’s what happened in Shijia. It’s like, like, where you make salad. It’s just everything. And when they pull out, we, as UN, we have to go there, the first people. And I never forget the smell of death from the first time, 2008. And when you move your first step inside of Shijia, you have it. And this is still in my mind. I was for three weeks, whatever I eat, I throw it away, because I can’t. I am a traumatized guy until now. It’s like I’m telling a story like it was like four, what? 2014 and now we are in 2018. It’s about four years ago. And I’m still a traumatized guy. I believe every and each one of Gaza people, they are traumatized. Whether they know it or not. Whether they can diagnose this or not. Because what we have seen in four years, it’s unbelievable. As a human being. And that’s what brings me back to what I have started saying. I thank Gaza because we had to grow up early. Otherwise we couldn’t handle this. But we have seen enough. And after the war, I was walking, me and [name], during the night. Outside, like walking in the street. And I noted that he’s covering his eyes like after me. He didn’t want to look up or to the sky. And I was like, what’s wrong? He said, dad, don’t look to the sky. And his voice was shaking. I was like, what’s wrong? He said, they’re filming us. They’re going to shoot. What? Who? You know, he was looking to the stars. And he was afraid. He thought these stars, that they are like an air jet. And like a fight airplane. They were going to shoot us. So he’s four years old and a half at that time. He was four years and a half. He could describe the missiles by the sound. He could tell you if it’s an F-16 missile. Or a missile from Gaza to Israel. He could tell you if this missile is going to hit next to us or far away. Just from the sound. Four years and a half. And he became traumatized. And I noticed that he used to be everywhere. Let’s say that he’s now sitting here and there’s a missile hit next to us. He will never go back to this place again. Will never. Even after the war. No, no, no. They will shoot again. So he was linking. Link between the place and the event. When I was sitting here, there was a missile. So I’m not sitting here again. So it was every place for him was a danger. And I decided, no, I’m not living here anymore. Despite that my life was in danger at that time regarding to my work in UN and a lot of circumstances. But yeah, my kids are more priceless than my life. So I decided, no, I’m not what I have seen. I’m not allowing this to happen to my kids. If I had the chance to do it, I would do it. Yes, it’s a sacrifice. Because I know this. If I leave, I will lose a lot. I will lose my home. And people think sometimes home is like some material. No, it’s not material. Especially when you build this home like a stone by stone. Especially when you build this home like stone by stone. Me and my wife, when we bought the home, it wasn’t like this, like just come and sleep. No, no, it was nothing. And we did it like inch by inch. Like in every inch there is some memories. I know that I will leave behind. My successful life in a way or another, I will leave behind. I had the luxury life there. I was working with the UN. I was working with the human rights organization. I had my own work. I had my own home, my own car. I had everything. I will leave behind. I know this is a big sacrifice and a big risk. Maybe I wouldn’t succeed to arrive to Belgium. Maybe I would die on my way to here. As a man, you have to have a decision. Life without risks. This very safe zone does not exist in life. So yes, I decided to move. For my safety, but the most important thing for my kids. I need them to grow up in a healthy atmosphere. No more, no less. And that’s… I have noticed the second day when they arrived here to Belgium. The second day, my son, maybe the first day because they were just traveling and blah, blah, blah. And they’re waiting two or three nights at the Rafah borders. It was very cold and a lot of misery. He didn’t notice this. But the second day, he was like, hey, dad. So the electricity here never go off? No. Because, you know, in Gaza, like, there is no electricity. It’s three hours per day. Sometimes two days, just two or three hours. And life is scheduled according to the electricity schedule. So and when he arrived, he was like five and a half, six. And he noticed this. And what he noticed also after two months, when they arrived, three months. I meant because my wife have never seen her brother like for the last eight years in Sweden. And I said, OK, it’s a very good chance after three months. Let’s go to Sweden. And my son, what he said, oh, my God, again to border. I don’t want to go again. He thought he what he will see what he have seen already at Rafah borders. No, no, no, no, no. It’s the story. Here you just as a human being, you have your passport. You have your ticket. You go to the airport and you fly. So that’s what I want to my kids. I want to see them playing outside. I have no fear. This is the thing.
[i] Can you describe how you fled to Belgium?
[r] Well, from Palestine, it’s not like other countries because you have to go through different stages. The first stage you have.
[i] Wait, wait. Can you first describe how you said goodbye to your family?
[r] Well, I haven’t said goodbye. Yes, I haven’t say goodbye and haven’t say goodbye to my kids. The only one that I said goodbye to is my wife. I literally mean it. And it was the biggest mistake. I have made that not saying goodbye to my kids. Why? Because I wasn’t sure even one person that I will pass the border. I said, OK, I will come back in any case. So why say bye, bye, bye, bye. And I will come back. But I managed and I just passed. I never say goodbye. Just my wife. And she said at that time, OK, like, like call a cab, like call a taxi to take you direct to the border. No, no. Why losing money? I’m coming back in any case. So I take, I talk like a taxi. We have different kind of taxis, like taxis, like buses here. You just see a taxi. Hey, you just wave your hand. They take many, many people on the way because it’s not like Belgium. Maybe from here to the three, four, five hundred meters away. And then you give him a shake and then you go.
[i] Did you say goodbye to your parents?
[r] No, no, no, no, no, no. I’m coming to this. So I stopped the taxi and to go to the border from where I live. I live about like. Ten minutes away from my family house. So I had to pass by my family. And when the car was passing by, I saw my father was sitting outside with his friend. And I did like this. I don’t want him to see me. I didn’t say goodbye to anyone. They knew that I am traveling after ten. Like the first time I spoke to them, like twelve, two weeks, something like this. Yeah.
[i] Why did you decide not to tell them?
[r] Because you never know. It’s a journey of yes or no. It’s a journey of life or death. So for me, what I have told my wife, like if anyone asked, [name] is traveling to follow some courses. And he still couldn’t have the chance to buy a SIM card. He sent me something by email. But I couldn’t really reach him. Keep it like this. Keep lying. They will know that you’re lying. It’s okay. Keep lying. And when I’m safe, I’ll let them know. That’s this. Because if you tell them that you’re going through all this. And every time on the news, they hear that there is a refugee crossing the Mediterranean Sea are dead. Or like people who was crossing through Turkey. and Athens are dead. And this and that. It won’t be nice. You know, keeping doing like this the whole time. If I die, I will ask forgiveness from my wife. Because she’s the only one who knows where I am. That’s it.
[i] And can you tell me how you fled? Which ways of transport did you use?
[r] Well, it’s from here to Egypt. From Palestine. From Gaza to Egypt. And from Egypt you need to fly to Turkey. And from Turkey you need to find a way. There is a million different ways. I wouldn’t… Well, I was a little bit lucky. I paid a lot. But I was a little bit lucky. Because I have contacts at that time. That they were already there. And they prepared everything for themselves. But I was like, come with us. And just arrived two days before they leave. And I just… Yeah, we have a say. It’s like… It’s a Gazan say. It’s like, put your head with the other heads. And yeah. If they die, you die. If they live… Like, when you die with people, it’s better than when you die alone. We call it like this. In what? Like, die with many, better than die alone. Like, at least you talk. So, yes. And then we took a… Commune? To here. Yeah. It was like… It was like this.
[i] And how… From… From Turkey? You got in a… In a truck?
[r] In a truck. To… No, first with a boat and then with a truck. But the truck was like four days. I don’t know why four days. It was… It stops a lot.
[i] You don’t want to talk about it?
[r] No. I don’t want to mention it. Because it was very bad. I would love to keep it to myself. I would love to keep it to myself. Even when you show it, I would love… This journey, I would love to keep it to myself. Because… It’s a very personal thing. It is really very personal. This is the only thing I never mentioned. This is for me. Because, [name], you are alone. And there are a lot of things that you learn from life. And this journey showed me how life is nothing. We are worthless. We are very weak. And if you disappear, by the way, I’m serious to say, the closest one to you, he will be sad just for a couple of days. That’s the maximum. And then, nothing. I’ve seen enough. In this journey I’ve seen enough and I’ve heard enough. And I would love to keep it to myself. Because this is my treasure in life. It’s a very black treasure. But I love it. Because there are a lot of lessons in there.
[i] You arrived at Linkeroever?
[r] Lucky me. Yes. When I went to commissariat, I know nothing. So they said you have to go there at 4 a.m. because you’ll find a lot of people. I went at 4 a.m. and there was nothing. I was the only one. But I managed to be there. And then, because my sister, she lives in Antwerp. And I said I want to stay in Antwerp, at least next to my sister. And then, they took me to a room where there is a woman. She works for Red Cross. And she said, listen, we have a space in Linkeroever. The only question that I asked her, is it a good place? She said, yes, you have your own room. Thank you. Fair enough. So when I arrived to Linkeroever, I know nothing. For me, it’s like a shock. I’m still tired. I believe the first two weeks in Linkeroever, I was like sleeping and sleeping and sleeping. I was like all… not because I want to sleep, because I can’t do any other thing than sleeping. You know, when I was eating, I never, for the first few days, I never continued a sandwich. I’m very… I feel very hungry. I’m dying from hunger. But I can’t eat. I just want to sleep. You know when you feel like yourself is useless and… like powerless. It was very bad. But what make… what make good the people that work in there? The people from the Red Cross. This is the very, very first impression I had. From the people working there. It was like… the smile that they receive you with. The humanity, the dignity that they are trying to serve you with. It was highly appreciated. It was priceless. Yes, being… for me being educated, speaking English, that made my life easier there to communicate. But still, even with the other people, they work with very much of love. With respect, which is the most important thing. The second thing in Linkeroever, being close to the city itself, like 15 minutes you are in the center of Antwerpen. So that made it also easier. Learning the language. It gives you the chance to learn the language. After all, it was a good… a good journey. It was a good time.
[i] What were your first impressions of Belgium when you arrived?
[r] Well, when you first arrive to a country, you listen a lot. But from my experience, I never listen. It’s not the first time I travel. I traveled a lot. So I have… For me, it wasn’t a shock because I used to travel a lot. So seeing different culture, different people, different languages, fine. But you always heard this word. Hey, Belgian people are cold. Flanderen people, oh my God, they are very cold. They trust nobody. They hate everyone. They are very racist. And you start… and their language is shit. Sorry, it’s very hard. That’s not shit. It’s still very hard language. And you keep listening to this and that and this and that. And for me, it wasn’t like this. They are not cold. Maybe they are cold because the weather is like this. Sometimes you take from the nature. But it is also… It’s their right. You are in you. Don’t compare anyone with your culture. Yeah, Arab culture is like open. Like, hey, come on, eat with me. It’s your culture and it’s their culture. You need to give them a chance or the time to understand you, to respect you, to see if you are a good guy or not. Because all what they know about you is war and ISIS. All what they know about you is what they see in their news. And their news saying that one, two, three, four, five. And everybody knows that this mass media is all following a certain agenda.
[i] Did you sometimes experience racism?
[r] For me? No. Once. My neighbor. She’s an NVA.
[i] What did she do?
[r] She didn’t like, you know… I use when I see people, I smile. Even you don’t know them, even you don’t like them, at least you smile. Or when I say hi, you say hi. That’s the maximum. She never say hi. Like this. A week later, or two weeks later, there is the Flandern National Day, I think. That becomes a week or two weeks before the national really… And they come out with the flag. The NVA or Flandern flag. The lion without the red fingers. So I noticed this. I don’t like. But like, racism? No. Maybe I know how to choose people. And I know how to negotiate. And if I face a racist people, I know how really to shut him up. But the thing… Back to Belgium people, they are not cold. They are afraid. They have seen enough. They have listened to a lot of bullshit and lies. And they would be good when they see something in you. My closest friends are Belgium. Like, when they trust in you, they are the most warm, welcome, funny guys and girls. They are nice. They need to open the door. Like, you have to knock. Like, they are cold. They don’t say… They don’t communicate. Yes, because you don’t speak English. And you don’t speak French. And you don’t speak Dutch. How could they communicate? How could they communicate? It’s also… It’s a barrier. It’s a very huge barrier, the language here. Thanks God that a lot of Belgium, especially in Flanders, speak English. Because they have to speak another language. Like in Wallonia. In Wallonia, they don’t speak anything. Just the French. So here, you could communicate with English. In English. And it’s good. So language was a barrier. And sometimes I feel sorry for people who don’t speak any other language than Arabic. It’s really… it asks a lot of effort. But the first few months, as a guy, as I told you, I used to work when I was seven years old. I know how to bring money. I never took money. My time during the Linkeroever, when I was in Linkeroever, the most time I hate, the eating time. I hate to stay on the line for food. Because I feel that I’m in jail. I’m in prison. I’m a criminal. Sometimes I go first one. Sometimes the last one. Sometimes I never come. Because I don’t want to stay on the line. There is the bus station. Bus station. In front of the door of the center. Sometimes you have Belgium with you in the bus and they look… That’s the first time I have seen their look. Before I wasn’t noticed. But once, one time I went out of the bus and I looked back and they was like looking at me like this. Oh, refugee. Gold digger. Illiterate. That’s what I have read in their eyes. And after that, I never came with the bus. I took… I go out of the bus one stop before or one stop after. And then I walk. I wouldn’t accept this. I’m not illiterate. I’m not a gold digger. I’m highly educated. I had a life. You wish if you had it. But this is the circumstances that I never choose to leave. If this… like if I hadn’t the circumstances that pushed me to leave. If you ask me a million times, I wouldn’t do this. In 2010, I was in the United States. I never said this because the circumstances wasn’t the same. Before, I had this life. I had this visa to Sweden, 2005. I wasn’t even married. Like I was like free by my own. I didn’t even go because I had enough. I was working in the UEE. I had a perfect life. I was single. I had everything. I never stayed there. I was working in the Egypt in cinema and funny and I would be famous. I never stayed there. But the circumstances changed. I had to leave. I don’t… it’s not that I want to leave. I had to leave. So this is the difference. They need to know this. It’s not… no one choose to leave everything behind them. Especially a life like mine. I had a good life. This is it.
[i] And now you’re living in Lebbeke?
[r] Now I’m living in Lebbeke.
[i] How’s your life in Lebbeke?
[r] Life in Lebbeke? Well, it was very scary beginning because I used to be in big city. Antwerp. The glory of Antwerp was enough. You know Antwerp. The city. The capital.
[i] What’s your favorite place in Antwerp?
[r] The favorite place is Rivierenhof In Deurne. Biggest park ever. Clean. Green. Quiet. Every time I visit Antwerp I just want to go to Rivierenhof. It’s amazing. And maybe because it’s the first place I took a walk with my wife when she first arrived. Yes, maybe. It’s the first time ever after she arrived to Gaza, to Belgium from Gaza, I walked with her. It was Rivierenhof. And it’s very astonishing place. I love it. I love Rivierenhof. But I hate the transportation there. But in Lebeke here, it was very scary because I know nothing and what I want to do, what I want to say. But yeah, the school is here. Two minutes. In Antwerp I was wasting every day three hours back and forth in the morning and the evening the transportation. Now the school is here. As a Muslim, the mosque is here, two minutes away, next to the school. What I need else? Transportation. The transport is here. And I work in Brussels, so it’s direct. The shops, Delhaize is here, Aldi is here, Lidl is here. So everything I need as a human being, as a family, is here. My kids. We have the academy here. We have the library here. We have a sports center here. I’m here as I told you in the beginning. I came here to have a good life for my kids. Nothing more, nothing less. It’s not about me anymore. I had enough. I have seen enough. I traveled enough. I achieved somehow what I am eager to. But when you’re married and you have kids, it’s not about you. It’s all you, like everything directed again to the kids. So here I’m feeling they’re fine. They’re fine. I’m fine. I’m doing good in Belgium. I’m working. I’m paying taxes. I work in Caritas, as I said, in a good position. International organization. So I’m doing great.
[i] What about the future?
[r] I will have my own company here. I will have my own production company. That’s what I believe in. I think also something will happen to my wife. She’s very active in the education terms. She’s teaching voluntary, Arabic and Islam. And she’s working with Belgian people to share awareness about the integration through education. That’s how to bring the two cultures together through education and to change the culture. And it’s a very unique project. And now we’re trying here also in Lebbeke to have the same project. So yes, we’re trying to give something back to the community. Because Belgium have received us in a very respectful way. Gives us the protection and the future for me, I believe so. So now we’re trying to give something back. Now, before we were very weak. When we arrived, we know nothing. We don’t speak Dutch. We don’t know the rules. But now, and Belgium was very patient on us two, three years. Like telling us, I felt like Belgium, are you okay now? You know everything? You can’t start by yourself? Do it. So now we’re doing it. We are doing it and we’re giving something back. In terms of respect. And in terms of appreciation. And in terms to build something new for our kids and the future. Because we’re here. We are Belgium. We are Palestinian. We are Belgium. So my kids will be Belgium. Will live in Belgium. So they need to know how to give back to that country that having them.
[i] Is there something that you still want to say? Like final message?
[r] Yes. Refugees, they didn’t choice this. Most of them, they had to do this. They had to flee. Most of them are highly educated. Most of them with a highly unique experience in their fields. They are not gold diggers. It’s the circumstances and they need time to cope with the new community. With the new culture. Just give them some time. And open more doors. Don’t be afraid. We’re good people.
[i] Thank you [name].
[r] You’re welcome.
[i] Thank you. Thank you my friend.
[r] Yeah. It was good. Sorry we have to… We were rushing you at the end. But we could do one more.