SU_A_06

[i] Good afternoon [name].
[r] Good afternoon!
[i] I will be interviewing you today for the Red Star Line Museum. Could you tell me a little bit about yourself, please? How old are you? Where are you from?
[r] Yes. I am 21 years old. I come from Aleppo, Syria. I am currently studying industrial sciences, specialising in ICT, at the University of Antwerp. And… I live in Lier. And yes.
[i] And what did you do in Syria? Did you study there too?
[r] Yes, I studied civil engineering… I studied civil engineering for a year, but unfortunately I had to stop because of the war.
[i] And how was school? Was it difficult or easy for you?
[r] School, do you mean university or secondary school?
[i] Yes, secondary school too.
[r] University wasn’t really difficult because it was in my mother tongue. And I came straight from secondary school, so I was prepared to continue studying. In secondary school, the first year was great. The second and third years… or in my country, that’s high school. The second and third years of high school were really awful and super difficult because we have a kind of test called ‘The Baccalaureate’ and that determines your future. So good grades mean a good future, bad grades mean a bad future. Primary school and secondary school were okay because I was a child, a teenager with no responsibilities. I didn’t have to worry about anything. I did what I wanted and yeah… that was just playing, football, sports, going out with friends, eating out, walking… so not really studying because, well… just passing, let’s say.
[i] And what kind of child were you?
[r] As a child, I was a good kid. As a teenager, I was a tough teenager. Really. I was a real boss when I was in secondary and high school. I was a real boss. Everyone… everyone respected me and everyone knew me. [name]. So I was the boss of the school or of the class or whatever, and I was a very active sportsman and I was a professional footballer in Syria. But at school level, not really at national level… And… And so. And at school level, I was a real professional athlete… A professional footballer, but… Not anymore. So… I was really, really… I was a tough teenager. Always fighting, always causing trouble, and I want this and I want that and… … Yeah, I don’t care. But the principle of [name] is good. I have a good… a good core.
[i] Did you have many friends?
[r] Many. Many! My entire neighbourhood knew me. Completely. All the children, all the men, all the teenagers in my neighbourhood and at my school knew me. You would say, ‘[name]’ – ah yes, I know him.
[i] Could you tell us a little about your family? Do you have any siblings?
[r] Yes, I have one brother and two sisters. My older sister is graduating this year from… She’s actually graduating… She’s graduating… in architecture. My younger sister is studying psychology and my brother is 11 years old, so he’s still in primary school. Last year of primary school.
[i] And do they still live in Syria?
[r] Yes, they still do.
[i] And your parents?
[r] My parents?
[i] Do they also still live in Syria?
[r] Yes, the whole family is still in Syria.
[i] And do you have good contact with each other?
[r] Occasionally. I do my best to communicate with them every day, to talk to them. But it’s difficult because they don’t have electricity or internet every day. Sometimes they have internet and electricity at 2 a.m. But at 2 a.m. I’m asleep because I have university every day from 8 a.m., so sometimes it’s not possible and sometimes it is, so… I do my best to communicate with them.
[i] Yes, and what means do you use?
[r] Internet, Facebook, Messenger, WhatsApp, I don’t know. Skype.
[i] And can you describe your life in Syria before the war? What did you like to do? What did you do with your parents?
[r] It was quiet, safe… um… I had a lot of fun… um, in my old life in Syria. Um… before the war. And yes, talking to my parents every day, going out with my friends, walking in the evening or… Yes… Doing something fun. I had all the opportunities I wanted. But after the war, it wasn’t really possible anymore because it’s no longer safe to walk, no longer safe to go out, no longer safe to do anything because you’re walking and suddenly a bomb or a rocket comes and boom! Gone! You’re dead. Voilà! Congratulations!
[i] And before the war, was it always safe in Syria?
[r] Always safe! Always! Always! And for example, I experienced that in Syria. At 4 o’clock in the morning… Because Syria is really active in the evening. Not like Belgium, which is dead in the evening. So if you want to do something in the evening… you can. At 8 p.m., 10 p.m., midnight, 2 a.m., there’s still life. People are on the streets, people are doing things, and at 4 a.m., a man wanted to pray at the mosque and he has a stall on the beach and he didn’t close it. So he just left it and went to pray… He went to pray. So Syria was so safe. No one steals anything, no one does anything to you. No one asks you, ‘Hey, give me your money!’ or steals anything… that doesn’t exist! It doesn’t really exist! It was really super safe! But unfortunately, not anymore.
[i] And what did you do to relax?
[r] Relax? I was usually outside my house. I just used to go out every day after school to play football with my friends, do something fun and especially in the evenings, walk with my friends or just go to, um… how do you call it? A ‘coffee shop’? To play with a LAN network. With other computers, just a shop with several computers to play together. The idea doesn’t exist in Belgium…
[i] Like an Internet café?
[r] Yes, Internet café! We call it a coffee shop, actually. Something like that. So yes. But it was actually great… but what I loved when I was a teenager was walking in the evenings… It’s incredibly beautiful. I lived on a kind of mountain in Aleppo. Aleppo is a high place and… a high city… or mountainous, you could say… and the view from my street was amazing. There was a lot going on, especially in the evenings… Indescribable! Really!
[i] And what did your parents do?
[r] My father was a doctor. And my mother is a housewife.
[i] And did you do a lot… a lot together?
[r] Yes, definitely. Especially with my father. I went through a lot with him. But he’s not here anymore… so.
[i] Yes… And what was your favourite place in Aleppo?
[r] Places? Ah yes… There’s a place in Aleppo called Al Jamilia. It’s a place where you can find all the electronic shops. Like MediaMarkt, Van Den Borre, and so on. So… And I’m a big fan of computers, games, mobile phones, technology and all that stuff, so it was a really great place. It was in the centre. The centre of my city. And there you find a lot of Internet… Internet shops… Or what was it? Internet shops, yes?
[i] Internet café.
[r] Internet café, yes. The Internet café. And it was just a place to do something fun… To do something fun in that place. And it was a great place… and a cheap place!
[i] And did you go there with your friends?
[r] Always! I was never alone like here in Belgium. I was never alone. I had lots of friends. So if I wanted to do something, I did it with my friends.
[i] And do you remember what the political situation was like in your city before the war?
[r] Stable. Peaceful. It was safe. So yes.
[i] And was your family politically active?
[r] Ah no. No. My father was a doctor, not a politician.
[i] So you didn’t have much information about…
[r] What kind of information do you mean?
[i] About the political situation.
[r] There was no political situation… It was just… It was safe. So yes… Safe and stable. We had no racism, no problems with each other. And yes… It wasn’t really a political situation like in Belgium, for example. All the parties fighting each other. And yes, I want power and I want power and so on. That doesn’t exist in Syria. We don’t really fight for power.
[i] And why did the war break out?
[r] I don’t know the reason. I am a citizen of Syria. Of my city. And I still don’t know the reason. It’s just unknown. Why? Yes. They want to destroy Syria.
[i] Who?
[r] I don’t know. Who exactly… I don’t know. But yes. They wanted to destroy Syria… to stop racism between people. To destroy security and yes… They want us to fight each other. But who? I don’t know. Nobody knows. What is the reason? Nobody knows.
[i] But there is a lot of information on the internet.
[r] I don’t believe that information. I come from that place and I know the truth. And the truth has nothing to do with what’s on the internet. For example, it’s also true that My idea of Europe was wonderful. Europe is a place where you don’t find any disadvantages. And the land of opportunity… and whatever else. But every place has advantages and disadvantages. But on TV, you only see the advantages. That was the situation in Syria. What you see on TV are only the disadvantages. The disadvantages, the problems… And most of the information was just a lie… wrong, fake, made up. So…
[i] You mean on local TV?
[r] On local TV… Local TV doesn’t really talk much about the war. It talks about other things because… I think that makes sense because, yes, you’re depressed and you want to watch something. You turn on the television, you have two hours of electricity a day, and you turn on the television and you want to watch something pleasant, and boom, it’s the news! All news! All channels talk about Syria. But local TV doesn’t always talk about the war… But more… So rarely about the war, let’s say. Local TV just broadcasts programmes to entertain people. And that’s the purpose of television. Just… Yes… To entertain.
[i] And was there a difference between the information you could see on local television and on international television?
[r] Yes, everyone shows what they find interesting. So… local TV is biased. And the other TV stations are also biased. So I broadcast what I find interesting. And the other TV stations or broadcasters do the same. And you don’t really know who to believe. Yes, that’s right… Because they all lie. So anyway. So actually, the situation in Syria is really complicated. I… I personally don’t know the reason behind the war. But… But why? Everything was fine! Every country… Every country… But look! You have to understand that. Every country has advantages and disadvantages. Belgium isn’t 100% correct. Neither is Syria. Russia. Neither is America. There is no… Perfect place on earth! That doesn’t exist. People aren’t perfect. Everyone makes mistakes. So… Yes!
[i] What do your parents… Your mother think about the war?
[r] My parents… My mother… She thinks the war is stupid. There is no reason. There is no reason for the war.
[i] Yes, but I mean what does she think about the reasons why it happened?
[r] The reasons? I don’t know. I don’t know. We don’t talk… We’re actually depressed… We were depressed in Aleppo. And we didn’t really want to talk about the war, about the reasons. Because we… We didn’t really know the reasons. Because, yes… From my perspective, everything was perfect. But from another person’s perspective, it wasn’t perfect. But from my perspective, something was wrong. If I see a 12-year-old child and I start talking about politics like a politician, then something is wrong… In my opinion. Because, well, you’re a teenager, what do you know… Or I was a teenager too. What did I know about politics? Right?
[i] Yes, definitely.
[r] So yes… And I’m a student, so politics doesn’t matter that much to me.
[i] And how has the situation in Syria and Aleppo changed after the war?
[r] After the war? Before the war, it was a great situation. Safe. Everything was okay. After the war… It was terrible… Literally terrible. It was really bad. There was no electricity, no water, no internet. It wasn’t safe anymore, and that’s the most important thing in life. Safety. No money. No work. No life… That was the situation in my city after the war. No life. So… Yes.
[i] Yes… Maybe we can talk a little bit about your escape?
[r] Sure!
[i] Did you flee alone or with friends?
[r] Yes… No, no, I fled alone. Of course, there were other people, but I didn’t know them. So… Yes, alone.
[i] And why didn’t your parents or sisters flee?
[r] Because, um… fleeing is too expensive and too dangerous. And we didn’t really have enough money for everyone to flee together. And I was really in danger. My situation was either to fight and die and kill someone else or to flee. So I decided with my mother to flee. So just… It was unknown what would happen on the way to Europe, but it was better to try than to just die or kill someone else and who knows what else.
[i] Because you were 18 and…?
[r] Over 18, the boys have to fight in the army.
[i] And you turned 18?
[r] Yes, I was 18. Yes. Yes, sad, but that’s life.
[i] And do you remember the day when you made the decision to flee?
[r] It was almost a day. It was 1 August, if I’m not mistaken.
[i] And how did you make that decision?
[r] Just like that. It wasn’t safe for me to stay there anymore. And yes, my mother said to me: ‘[name], you might have a future there, but you don’t have a future here anymore. And I don’t want anyone here… Don’t hurt anyone, you know. Because… I don’t dare. I don’t dare hurt anyone else. Or that something bad would happen to me for no reason. So I said: ‘No. I’m going to… I’m going to try. Maybe I’ll have a future. Or maybe… Yes… I’ll die on the way.’ But that doesn’t really matter because I tried in the end.
[i] And where did you get information about the possibilities of fleeing?
[r] What do you mean, ‘possibilities of fleeing’?
[i] Yes, that it’s possible to flee to other countries… To Belgium.
[r] Yes [coughs] sorry. I saw on TV that refugees are going to Hungary, refugees are going to Germany. Refugees everywhere and the journey goes from Syria to Turkey, Turkey to Greece, Greece to… I don’t know… And then to Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and all the European countries. So yes, the idea exists, but it’s dangerous.
[i] So that was the public information on local TV?
[r] Yes, on local TV on the news… Of course. Everyone saw it. Not just me.
[i] Yes, and what was your image of Europe and Belgium when you were living in Syria?
[r] Full of advantages. But that wasn’t the reality. I said that what you see on TV is just the advantages. For example, if I… And I’m going to do that! If I’m going to make a programme… Amsterdam, let’s say… I’m only going to show the good sides of Amsterdam. I’m not going to talk about… Yes, the bad side of… Of Amsterdam, for example. So yes, but reality always has… in real life, we always have advantages and disadvantages. Bad points, good points and so on. So not what I expected… But…
[i] What exactly was your image of Europe?
[r] Image of Europe? The TV images.
[i] And what are the TV images?
[r] Like Dubai. Yes. Like Dubai. Dubai has a TV image that Dubai is… Wow! And the skyscrapers and… and the modern city, but actually Dubai doesn’t only have advantages, it has many other disadvantages. But we don’t hear about the disadvantages, do we? If you watch a programme or a series about Dubai, for example, you never hear about the disadvantages of Dubai. And like Europe. Like everywhere. So yes. But Europe is a good place.
[i] And do you remember how you said goodbye to your country and your family?
[r] Yes… I talked to my mother a little bit about everything. What I was going to do… What I was going to try… And yes… It’s difficult to… Just like that… Within a day, to leave your family, your country, your friends… To go to an unknown place. So yes, that was difficult. But I had to be a little strong for my mother because she was really, really sad. And I just wanted to be a little strong… To say: ‘Yes, it’s okay, Mum. It’ll be fine.’
[i] And with your sisters? How was saying goodbye to your sisters and your brother?
[r] It was less difficult than with my mother. But it was still difficult.
[i] And what was the most special moment during the farewell?
[r] Farewell? Writing a message… For my little sister because I love my little sister very much. And I really wanted to write something special for her. So… That was special.
[i] And what did you write in the message?
[r] Just that she should pay more attention to her studies… because studying is the most important thing. And that she should pay a little more attention… Not be a child anymore. She really has to grow up. And help her mother. And she really has to pay attention to everything. Because she’s a little indifferent. So… I just wanted to give her some advice and tell her how much I love her. And that I’m going to miss her and so on.
[i] And who did you flee with?
[r] With whom?
[i] Yes, I mean the people. When did you first see them? Or were they just random people?
[r] Yes, random people. Yes.
[i] Yes, and why did you choose Europe and Belgium? Antwerp in particular?
[r] Especially Antwerp? But first Europe, then Belgium, then Antwerp. Europe… because Europe is the only place where it’s possible to flee. Because, let’s say Dubai… If I want to go to Dubai, that’s not possible… Absolutely not possible! They have no rights for us there. So… That’s why Europe. Belgium… Because Belgium is used to foreigners. Because, well, look at Brussels, for example… Most of the inhabitants of Brussels are from Italy, Spain, France, Russia… Lots of Turkish people… Lots of Moroccan people. So that’s why I thought I wouldn’t feel like a stranger. Not a real foreigner. I’m just going to be a person, a citizen in Belgium. In Antwerp… Because Antwerp is the city and the rest is parking! [laughs]
[i] Can you tell us a little about how you prepared for your flight?
[r] Preparation? There was no preparation. It all happened within a day, so… I couldn’t really prepare much and anyway… I’m not allowed to take much with me. It’s a dangerous route, so not really a suitcase… ‘Ah yes, I’m going on a trip! Ciao!’ So no… I just took the basics with me.
[i] Do you remember exactly what you took with you?
[r] Yes, underwear, for example… [laughs] For example… A few T-shirts. A pair of trousers and an extra pair, socks and so on. And money, of course.
[i] And food too?
[r] Food? No, I didn’t take any food with me. That wasn’t really… Yes, I didn’t think about food like I do now. It wasn’t important, really. My safety was number one. So food… It didn’t matter.
[i] And what means of transport did you use to flee?
[r] All kinds. Planes, buses, trains, mostly on foot… And… A boat from Greece to… From Turkey to Greece. And yes, that was it. Is there more? Means of transport other than these? [laughs]
[i] And can you tell us a little about the route from Syria to Belgium? Every step.
[r] Ah yes… First… First I had to take a bus from my city to Lebanon… From Lebanon, um…
[i] And how long did this journey take?
[r] A long time. Twenty hours, I think… Normally it takes five to six hours. But because of the borders and because of… Problems because of the war, I don’t know… It took twenty to twenty-one hours. Something like that.
[i] So from Aleppo to…
[r] To Beirut. To Lebanon. And then from Lebanon, from Beirut, I took a plane to Turkey. To Istanbul. In Istanbul, I took a boat with lots of other people… There were 55 of us on the lifeboat. This rubber boat… with 50 people. There were 55 of us on that boat! And we had to steer it! There was no one with us. Go ahead.
[i] And who was the person who steered it?
[r] One of us. He said: ‘Yes, I’ll steer it!’ [laughs] Yes!
[i] And did he have any experience?
[r] Yes, apparently he did, so… That was good for us. We were lucky! So yes…
[i] Yes, and then?
[r] Then to Greece, where I had to wait on the island for two or three days… Until I got a… What do you call it? Um… ah yes, a ‘khartiah’… that’s what we call it. A document from Greece that I… That I… Allows me to enter. My name and date of birth and origin. And then I can stay for 30 days or so. Ah yes… I think I waited two or three days… I got a paper and then… Straight to Athens. And from there I tried to fly… Because that was the fastest, safest way to Europe. To the real Europe, I mean. Belgium, Germany, the Netherlands, I don’t know… But it didn’t work. I tried three or four times, but it didn’t work. The last time I went to prison. And then to court with the real judge of Greece. She listened to my story. And yes… She felt sorry for me and she said: ‘Look, you’re young, 18 years old. I understand your situation. I’m not going to do anything… Actually, nothing against… For you. But you have to promise me that you won’t try to get on a plane with a fake passport again. Because the second time… The next time you’ll really go to prison. And I said, ‘I don’t want that. Okay. Thank you! Thank you for the chance.’ And then I decided to continue on foot. And that’s what I did. I took a bus in Greece… Um… 30-40 minutes before the border of… Of Macedonia. Then we walked to… To the border of Macedonia. There I waited… I think 1 or 2 days at the border before I could cross… Could cross. And in Macedonia I took a bus, also 30-40 minutes before the border of Serbia. And then I had to walk to a city… In Serbia. There were actually… There were no borders. Actually, there was no one at the borders. I just had to go straight… Straight to… To the city. And I also had to ask for a paper like a ‘khartiah’. Like proof that I yes… I came here to the Serbian authorities. And they know my name. And I am registered. And I am allowed to stay for a few days… for a certain period. And then I went to the capital of Serbia, Belgrade. And in Belgrade I had to find a smuggler because Hungary was really dangerous… and the treatment by the police and the people in Hungary was very bad. So if the police had found me in Hungary, my future would have been destroyed. Then I would have had no future.
[i] Why?
[r] Because, well… They would say: ‘Yes, you can’t go any further… you can’t go to Europe… to Belgium, to the Netherlands, France, etc. And you have to stay here. And you won’t get any help there. And the people and the government there are really racist towards us. So… And that’s not what I want. That’s not really a good life to start with. So that’s why I had to find a smuggler. Me and a group of people there. We found a smuggler. And then… Um… We took a bus to the Hungarian border. And then I had to walk for three or four days, I think, in the woods in Hungary. And we had a lot of children… babies aged three or four months.
[i] And how many people were there?
[r] There were 16 of us. A small group. But that’s how it has to be. Not really small… but it can’t be too big… It’s easier to move around. And to walk and so on. So yes… Hungary, Austria to… Um… What’s it called? Germany. Germany to Antwerp.
[i] And how long did the whole flight take in total?
[r] Ouch. Half a month. From Syria to Belgium.
[i] And what was… Where was the longest stop? The longest layover?
[r] Greece, because I tried to fly four times. So that was the longest layover.
[i] And there was a problem with your passport?
[r] Not with my own passport. But with the fake passport. [laughs] So yes.
[i] And was the flight exactly as you planned? Or as you expected?
[r] Yes, it was difficult to expect anything. But I knew in advance that it wasn’t going to be easy. I know that.
[i] How did you know that?
[r] I saw it on the internet. Yes… Everyone will say that because, well, you’re going to Europe on foot. That’s unbelievable… So yes. Yes, I knew it… I knew it would be difficult, but imagining it is different from experiencing it. So it was a step harder, but I was always optimistic. I didn’t lose hope. And I didn’t give up, which is why I was able to reach Belgium. And reaching the university in Belgium and learning the language of Belgium or Flanders… And so on. So yes!
[i] And I know you speak English very well. Did that help you during your journey?
[r] Of course, of course, of course! I was actually able to communicate very well with the people at the borders and, because of my English, I was able to cross the borders a little faster. I was able to move forward a little faster. Because I would say, ‘Yes, yes, yes, I’ll translate for someone and I’ll say something.’ So I would help the people there so that they could help us. So… Yes, it helped me. It helped me a lot.
[i] By people, do you mean the immigration service staff?
[r] Immigration? Those were soldiers at the borders. Yes. Because most people there don’t speak a word of English. Except for ‘thank you, hello’ and stuff like that… Yes. That really helped me.
[i] And what were the procedures for crossing the border from one country to another?
[r] What do you mean?
[i] Yes, the procedures when you have to cross the border into another…
[r] It was always… Always the same procedure. You always have to give your passport to the people there and they check it. To see if you’re a criminal or something… And that you haven’t done anything wrong. And that you really are a citizen who has fled this country. So that was basically the story. They always check at every stop to see if you’re okay… if you’re not a criminal and so on. So that was basically it. At all the stops. That’s how it was. Just checking if you’re a real person, a real refugee from Syria or another country. Period.
[i] And how long did it normally take to check your passport?
[r] Normally 1 to 2 days, but sometimes there was a kind of miscommunication between the people and the authorities there. That’s why it took so long.
[i] For example, what kind of miscommunication?
[r] People don’t speak English. And the authorities there have a few questions to ask. But they can’t really communicate with each other. So… That’s why I said my English helped me. Because if they have questions, for example, about my group, about the people I met on the bus to Greece to… To Macedonia, and so on.
[i] And what kind of questions did they ask your group of people?
[r] Just to check that… That your passport is yours. Or which bus you came on. What time did you leave Greece? How much money did you pay in Greece? And so on. Things like that. And what are you going to do? Where are you going next? That kind of questions.
[i] You said that the entire flight took a month and a half [meant half a month], but what was the most difficult moment of the entire journey?
[r] Eh… The most difficult moment.
[i] Or something you can really remember well.
[r] I can remember everything. But the most annoying stop was Lebanon, to be honest. It was the first and most difficult and disrespectful stop for me. It was really, really difficult. I had to wait almost 20 hours… No, not 20… That’s an exaggeration… I had to wait 8 to 9 hours at the border to enter Lebanon… So…
[i] And why did it take so long?
[r] I don’t know. I don’t know. And the treatment by the soldiers there was really bad… It was really worse than the people in Europe. In Europe, there was real respect. I saw respect from the people… From the soldiers… Because everyone had a kind of desire or inclination to help us. But there, it was actually the first step… but why are you doing this? For example, it wasn’t bad for me personally, but there were a lot of old people aged 60 and 70, and there were chairs, and we weren’t allowed to sit on the chairs. I didn’t mind. I don’t care. I’m young. I’m 18 years old. I can stand for 20, 30, 40 hours without sleeping, without eating, it doesn’t matter. But we have old people. Aged 60, 70, 80. Why can’t they sit down? ‘Yes, yes, you have to stand.’ But why? I don’t understand. Why do I have to wait nine hours? Everything is legal and I paid for a visa to come here… To be able to enter and yes… You have to wait. So yes… That was the hardest stop for me, so to speak.
[i] And what was the fastest stop… that went really fast?
[r] The fastest stop? Maybe the fastest stop was… I’m going to say Turkey. But Turkey was actually the same case as Lebanon. I was in Turkey legally. I have a visa… I applied for a visa and paid for it at the airport, so… It was easy. I didn’t have to wait 10 hours or anything… So that was just the normal procedure, so to speak. So normally that should also be the case in Lebanon, but hm… I don’t know why that was, but… ça va. In the end, I just left from there, so… no problem.
[i] And what was… It… Not pleasant, what can be pleasant about a flight, but maybe nothing, but…
[r] Yes, yes! There is something pleasant! When you can get from one country to another, that’s super pleasant! Yes, because you think: ‘One step further! Damn! Let’s go! On to the next one!’ That was fun! You always have to look at the glass as half full, not half empty. Because there is something that is full. “Now I’m in Turkey! No more Lebanon, no more Syria. Now I’m in Greece. No more Turkey. Macedonia – no more Greece. Austria – no more worries.” Because from Austria you can do anything. So…
[i] So every time you get more and more motivation to keep going.
[r] Yes. Exactly. That was my case.
[i] And did you make any friends during your trip?
[r] I made one friend, actually… he was from Iraq. But I haven’t heard from him. I tried to contact him, but I can’t. So… I don’t know what happened to him. He went to the Netherlands. I spoke to him two years ago, I think… two years ago. In March or April… But then he left…
[i] And which countries did you meet people from?
[r] I met him on the bus from Greece to Hungary… To Macedonia.
[i] I mean, from which countries did you see other refugees?
[r] I was the only Syrian on the bus.
[i] Really?
[r] Yes. There weren’t actually that many Syrian people. But on TV, if you watched… What they say on the news: ‘Syrian refugees everywhere… In Macedonia and wherever and there and here. But that’s not true. I experienced it! But that’s not true! We were the minority. Not the majority. I was… I swear. I was the only Syrian in my group. On the bus. The whole bus. I was the only Syrian. So yes. That’s why I don’t believe in television anymore. It was just false information that you see on television.
[i] Yes, and what countries were the other people from?
[r] Different countries. From Iraq, from, um… From Somalia, from Afghanistan. Some people from Africa. Yes, a few people from… Um… From what’s the country called; from Libya, I think. And so on. So.
[i] And what country was that bus with lots of different people from?
[r] What do you mean?
[i] I mean, at what stage of your flight did you meet these people?
[r] Um… From Turkey. Yes. I saw a lot of people there. Of different nationalities. So yes.
[i] And no Syrian people?
[r] Yes, yes, but not many. Not as many as the television says. So yes, I thought I would only see Syrian people during the journey, Syrian people everywhere… Syrian people on the streets. But… That wasn’t actually the case. And in my group, I’ve already said this and I’ll say it again, I was the only Syrian in the whole group.
[i] But when you left Syria, were there many people leaving with you? Or not?
[r] From Syria? Yes, we left with a full bus. But not all the people who left went on to Europe. It’s just a bus to Lebanon. So yes.
[i] Are there also many who stayed in Lebanon?
[r] Yes, it was just a trip for them. ‘Yes, I’m going with my husband, my brother, my…’ I don’t know. That was in the summer… August. ‘So I’m just going on a trip. And I’m going to do something fun in Lebanon.’ So yes.
[i] Okay. Let’s talk about your arrival in Belgium.
[r] Yes. Antwerp.
[i] What was your first impression of Belgium and Antwerp? Belgium first.
[r] Belgium… I arrived in Antwerp, so the Central Station…
[i] But first in Brussels, I think?
[r] No, no. Not Brussels first. For me, the first stop… Because I came by train… The first stop was Antwerp. And…
[i] What was your impression?
[r] I was extremely pleased… because at that moment I knew I wouldn’t have to walk anymore. That’s it. Finally. After half a month, I had reached Belgium. Finally. Yes!
[i] How many kilometres did you walk during the journey?
[r] A lot. I didn’t count, so…
[i] But approximately?
[r] No idea. No idea. No idea. What is the surface area of Macedonia? [laughs] I don’t know. So yes… I don’t know. But a lot.
[i] So the first place you saw in Antwerp was the Central Station?
[r] Yes, it was Central Station. And then from Central Station… I had to wait until the next day and then I went to Brussels to apply for asylum. That’s what happens there. And from Brussels I went… With other refugees to the central asylum… The asylum centre in Namur. It was in Namur. And I had to stay there for a month to a month and a half. But it was absolutely terrible. I became incredibly depressed. I was extremely tired. I cried all day long. I didn’t want to stay there anymore. I wanted to go back to Syria. Really. I asked for that.
[i] And why was it so terrible?
[r] It was absolutely awful! It was terrible. We slept on the street in tents. And the food was really awful. I’m grateful that I got something, but… But… But yeah. I… I… I expected much better and much more.
[i] Did you have to sleep on the street?
[r] Yes, it was just a military place. A military site. So every day I hear people fighting or the soldiers training. And the planes, the F-16s and whatever else… Oh dear, oh dear. So yes… And I asked to go to another centre… Another asylum centre. And I actually went to a psychologist… Because it was incredibly difficult for me there. It was even harder than in Syria. It’s even harder than in Syria.
[i] And you were 18 at the time?
[r] Yes, I was 18. It was… everything happened when I was 18.
[i] And the people in the asylum centre? How old were they?
[r] I think I was the youngest. I was the youngest. 18 years old. It was the adults… Adult centre. Just men. So I was the youngest. And but the people there… The employees there were really nice to us. They were really friendly. But what we got was… was… yes… like ‘just eat…’ bread from three days ago ‘just eat’. You had to eat the same thing every day for a month and a half. And you had to… There were no activities. Nothing to do. I was really busy. Yes, ‘I want to learn French!’ I was in Wallonia. ‘I want to learn the language. I want to get on with my life. I’ve wasted a lot. I’ve lost a lot of time. Hello! I want to do something!’ The people there, the staff, tried to help us, but they had no power… no budget to do so. But I got the dermatologist… on the recommendation of the dermatologist… not dermatologist! God damn it!
[i] Psychologist?
[r] Psychologist! Yes! Because I’m dealing with my eczema. And always dermatologist, dermatologist, dermatologist! With the psychologist! On the advice of the dermatologist… of… ts!
[i] [laughs]
[r] Again! Again! Psychologist! Psychologist!
[i] Psychologist!
[r] I know! That it’s a psychologist… but… just…
[i] But you’re thinking of a dermatologist.
[r] Yes. I think psychologist but I say dermatologist. So psychologist. On the advice of the psychologist, I was able to change asylum centres. Because it wasn’t possible… To change places. And then I went… to Liège for about 5 or 6 days. And from Liège I went to Brussels. To Uccle. That’s a rich place in… In Brussels. It was… It was pretty good. I’ll say… It wasn’t a perfect place. But to start with, it was a great place. I sleep on a bed. There’s a place… Yes, because in Namur… Can you believe it? I have to walk 15 minutes to get water. Walk 15 minutes to go to the toilet. So… That was incredibly bad. So yes. But still, I was grateful. ‘No problem. Thank you.’ But my mental state was destroyed. I came to Uccle and the people there were also friendly: ‘Welcome. Go rest. Would you like something to eat? Would you like something to drink?’ And… it was pretty good, I would say. I was happy.
[i] And how long did you have to stay there?
[r] A month and a half, and then I had to go to another centre in Brussels. Also in Brussels, but in the centre of Brussels. It was fine. I was responsible for myself in Brussels. But I had a bad social worker, because normally refugees and foreigners are assigned a social worker who guides them, so to speak. Who says: ‘Yes, you have a problem with something. Then you have to do this.’ I want to go to the doctor. ‘Then you have to do that.’ And so on. I’m not from this country. So I don’t know anything. I have to go to the town hall, and so on and so forth. But I had a very bad social worker. So my experience in Brussels wasn’t ideal because there was always something… Something wrong.
[i] For example?
[r] Yes, I had no guidance. I want to go to school but I don’t know the way. What should I do now? Just ask someone on the street? ‘Hello! Please! I want to go to school. Where is the school? How do I enrol?’ And they say: ‘Oh dear! You’re crazy!’ Or just walk away or call the police… I don’t know. Do you understand?
[i] And you didn’t ask your assistant?
[r] He wasn’t there. He wasn’t there… Brussels is actually chaos. Let’s just say that. Everything goes. It’s not very well organised. But that’s Brussels. It’s the capital. I understand that. But… It wasn’t an ideal place to start. But… the Flemish people. The Flemish people in Brussels helped me a lot. Because I met someone… a Flemish person. And… I met a Flemish person. And he said, ‘Yes, there’s a Dutch language centre in Brussels. They’ll help you there.’ So I went there and it was great. I first… I learned the first two levels of Dutch in Brussels and I also did the integration programme and it was great… A wonderful experience. Really. I learned a lot. And the atmosphere was really great. So… I’m still grateful to those people there. For the Flemish people in Brussels. Because they really gave me… a kind of hope. But that wasn’t the end of the story, because I also received a lot more help in Antwerp. Linguapolis. For example, Mrs. [name]. I am grateful to her for the rest of my life. Because what she gave me is… It’s wow! She gave me a chance to start my life. It was really… The first real serious chance. ‘Look [name]! That’s your chance. Grab it and go for it!’ So…
[i] Can you tell us a little about Linguapolis? How…
[r] Linguapolis!
[i] Yes… How did you know it was possible to study there?
[r] It was the best experience in Belgium because I met some amazing people there. The teachers were incredibly kind. They were like our mothers. Not really teachers. The teachers there, [name], [name]… The names of the teachers… So that was incredible. They really care about you. Yes, I have a problem. And I was a bit of a difficult student. I ask a lot of questions. And all my friends know that. And I had… I’ve never had any problems with the teachers saying, ‘Yes [name]. You ask a lot of questions. I’m not going to answer.’ No, always, ‘You have a question. I’m going to answer it.’ Period.
[i] But how did you know you could study at Linguapolis?
[r] It was actually by accident. My social worker in Lier said to me… Or I said to her, because at the beginning your social worker does a kind of interview with you to ask what your goals are. What are you going to do now? And I said, ‘Yes, I’m a student and I’d rather continue studying’. And she said, ‘Yes, okay. That’s good. That’s great.’ And then, after a week or two, she called me and said, “[name], there’s a kind of… A kind of scholarship from Lin… From the University of Antwerp to learn Dutch. I’ve signed you up… I’ve signed you up. And you have to do an interview.” That was with [name]. Ms [name], who works there at Linguapolis. And I said, ’Ah, yes. Okay. Great!’ I didn’t really expect much. But anyway. Okay. And I went to Ms [name]. And… She was really super friendly. A kind of interview… ‘What did you do in Brussels? How well do you speak Dutch? Why do you want this scholarship?’ And so on. And yes, after two months, I think… Two months… she called me and said, ‘Congratulations! You are one of the students who have been accepted!’ And approved, so to speak, to receive the scholarship. And voilà! So everything started from that moment.
[i] And could you speak Dutch well by then? Or how did the interview go?
[r] Ah yes, what did you expect? Brussels Dutch… No. It was just, I know the basics.
[i] What could you say?
[r] Good afternoon! Of course. But that was actually one of my favourite words: ‘Of course!’ It sounds really good. But now I don’t say ‘of course’ anymore.
[i] But the interview was in English with [name]?
[r] A kind of mix. Because I said that I had passed the first two levels in Brussels. And she said: ‘Yes! Allez! Let’s speak Dutch!’ And yes, it wasn’t bad actually. I could say: ‘Who… Like who are you? What’s your name? Where do you live? Where are you from?’ And so on. I could answer those kinds of questions.
[i] Can you tell us a little more about Linguapolis? I can see you’re really enthusiastic about it.
[r] Yes, yes… But we don’t really have enough time to talk about Linguapolis. Because if I want to start talking about Linguapolis… I’d need days to tell you how amazing my experience with Linguapolis was. I met… I met my best friend there, for example. She’s from Russia. I met her there. And I also met some really nice people there. From Brazil, Lebanon, Belgium… Language mates. Everything was good. Everything was great.
[i] And the teachers?
[r] I already said that. They were like mothers to us. Not just teachers. They were mothers. So I have one mother in Syria, but at Linguapolis I had five mothers.
[i] Who was your favourite teacher?
[r] [name]. Of course. Of course.
[i] And why?
[r] Yes… I want to say ‘because’. But [name] is just charming… Just enthusiastic… Ah yes, I remember in the oral exam for level 3… 4, I think. I don’t really remember it very well. 4, I think… And I had to read something and then tell [name], and at first I was a bit… a bit scared, you could say. And I couldn’t really speak… And [name] said: ‘Come on [name]! You can do it!’ And from that moment on… ‘Come on! [name] said that! I’m going to do it!!’ And yes… and I got very high marks for the oral exam… I think it was a 10. And I got a 9 out of 10 for the oral exam… At that moment. So that was great! So yes… She’s just friendly and enthusiastic about teaching. And yes…
[i] And did you do any other activities at Linguapolis or just study grammar?
[r] Um… Yes, we had the Taalmaten… We had Dutch Studies, I think. Dutch Studies… Dutch Studies. Something like that… We also had phonetics to… be able to pronounce things correctly. And… Every now and then we went on a trip with other students.
[i] A field trip?
[r] Outings. Yes. Outings to Ghent. A trip to a museum. A trip to a theatre… And so on. So it was a really nice experience. Not just learning Dutch, but also integrating into Antwerp and the language. And also with the people of Antwerp. That’s a Taalmaat project. You learn… You learn… you learn… People from… Allez, what’s the name?
[i] Belgium?
[r] Not Belgium. But… You get to know people from the university… Real students. Through Taalmaat. Doing activities together, and I think that’s… I think that’s really nice.
[i] And has it also helped you improve your Dutch?
[r] Yes… Yes… Just more practice, you could say.
[i] What was the most important thing for improving your Dutch? For learning Dutch?
[r] Studying at home [laughs] Because, well… What you get from Linguapolis is more than enough. If you can just follow along a bit and study at home, that’s it. That’s what you have to do, really.
[i] And was your Dutch good enough for you to study at university?
[r] The Dutch I learned at Linguapolis?
[r] Yes… It was reasonable enough. Because what you learn at Linguapolis is the basics. Not the basics… It’s just, you learn Dutch to the level where you can learn everything. Because Dutch is like an ocean… And you learn a part of it. You learn the core… The core of Dutch, and the rest you learn yourself because at Linguapolis they don’t… They don’t teach you the words for maths, for example. But… Now you know… Now you can… You’re at a level where you can learn the other words. Let’s say. That was the case. So the first semester at university wasn’t easy. But I had the opportunity to understand things. How can I approach this problem in Dutch? And so on. That’s what I learned from… From Linguapolis. And I think that’s… I think that’s the most important thing.
[i] And now you understand everything you hear in seminars and lectures?
[r] Almost. Almost. Because sometimes… Sometimes the teacher has a kind of accent, a kind of… Yes, a strange pronunciation. That’s the case for me, for example. One of my lecturers says: ‘Soit!’ Every time: ‘Soit! Soit! Soit!’… But apparently ‘soit’ means ‘never mind’ and comes from French. So things like that. Do you understand? Now I know what ‘soit’ is. I use it too. Soit. Never mind! Bon! So yes.
[i] And do the teachers sometimes speak with dialects?
[r] Yes, they speak Dutch and each person has their own accent, so to speak. So… But Dutch at the university is pretty clear. Not always, but clear.
[i] So are you satisfied with your knowledge of Dutch? The level of your Dutch?
[r] Of Dutch. I don’t work on my Dutch anymore. I’m not worried about my Dutch. That’s… That’s over. Now I’m worried about my subjects. [laughs] How am I going to study and pass them? So yes.
[i] And did you pass your exams last semester?
[r] Yes, I passed 4 out of 7 of my subjects.
[i] Good result!
[r] Not bad. I can… I can do much better, but economics, for example, was a very difficult subject with 700 pages that I had to memorise. And the language itself was really super difficult. So I had no idea what to do. Yes… either pass economics or pass maths and chemistry. And maths and chemistry are much more important than economics. In my opinion.
[i] And how is studying here in Belgium different from studying in Syria?
[r] In what way?
[i] In every way. Is it completely the same or can you see any differences?
[r] Yes… No. It’s completely different because studying at a Belgian university is self-study. 80% self-study and 20% by the students [meaning the lecturers]. In Syria, it’s about half and half. Half self-study and 50% by the lecturers. And the lectures, for example… In simple terms… At university, I get 1 and the lecturers expect me to learn 2 and 3 by myself. Do you understand? But in Syria, I get 1, 2, 3 and you have to be able to do the exercises on 1, 2, 3 and remember them. That’s the difference. And plus, in Belgium, I study in Dutch. That’s not my mother tongue, so that’s an obstacle. That’s why it’s much easier in Syria than here.
[i] And which system do you think is better? The one in Syria or here in Belgium?
[r] Every system has its advantages and disadvantages. In Syria, we have the Baccalaureate… So only good students who are good enough for that field are allowed to start. In Belgium… I understand why the teachers… Why the teachers… Do this. Because in Belgium, everyone can study whatever they want. Yes, I’m studying something technical and then I’m going to study medicine. That’s allowed in Belgium. In Syria, that’s not allowed. If you don’t have an ISO diploma with a very high grade… Percentage, then you can’t… You can’t study medicine. So it’s just different. But yes.
[i] And what do you do besides studying? Do you have any hobbies here in Belgium?
[r] Hobbies? I’d like to, but I don’t have time for hobbies. So yes, I try to go out with my friends every now and then or play a little… Use the internet on the internet server or talk to my mother or yes… Because it’s too busy. My life is too busy. University is too busy and I’m responsible for myself. So every now and then I have to go to the OCMW to sort out a few things. Every now and then I have to go to the city to sort out a few things. Every now and then I have to go to the mutual insurance company… To the doctor and… So lots of things. I actually have… I want to have hobbies, but… I don’t have time. For hobbies…
[i] And in general, are you satisfied with your life here in Belgium?
[r] Yes… Yes, yes. Sometimes it’s difficult, but in general I’m satisfied. But I feel that things could be better. I always feel that I could do better.
[i] You mean with your studies?
[r] With everything. With everything. With my personal life. With my studies. With everything I can do better. But sometimes I just… The… Necessary or enough motivation… You know? So that’s why I have occasional periods of depression in my life. Occasionally I get depressed because, well, I’m lonely here. And I live alone and the routine of life here is a bit annoying… And yes, I’m only free in the evenings. But there’s no life in Belgium in the evenings. So yes…
[i] Is there nothing to do here in Lier in the evenings?
[r] In the evenings? Except go to a café for a pint. [laughs] Everywhere, really.
[i] Do you drink pints?
[r] I don’t like them. But… I do like jenever.
[i] But you drink alcohol?
[r] Alcohol? I don’t really like it in general. I’ve tried it, but beer is… Duvel is okay. Duvel is okay. But beer in general is… Um… Not… And especially wine, wine is terrible. Especially red wine. Cava is nice too. So my favourite alcoholic drink is gin. Gin… Is really, really nice. Cactus or apple. So yes.
[i] And can you do everything you want to do here? Here in Belgium?
[r] For example?
[i] Yes, for example, as I already said, hobbies or something… Or personal development.
[r] Not everything, because I have a lot of responsibilities. So… Sometimes I have to do things I don’t want to do. But you have to do them anyway. Sometimes I want to go out, but… Either I don’t have enough money to do so, or I don’t have enough time because I have other responsibilities that are more important than that. So…
[i] Studying?
[r] Studying. Cooking. Doing the dishes. Cleaning. And so on. So. Yes. But in general, I do what I want, but not always.
[i] And can you describe your neighbourhood? I know you moved.
[r] Yes.
[i] And why did you move?
[r] Because my previous home was declared uninhabitable. And I had to move, so that’s why I got this place. And yes… That was a very difficult period. That was this month. And yes, I had to move within five days. Pack everything. So I didn’t go to university and that’s why I’m way behind in my studies. So yes. That’s not fun.
[i] How long did you live there?
[r] A year and a half. A year and a half.
[i] Did you like living there?
[r] There? It was a dump. But it was the only option I had. So… Yes, well. It was the only option because renting a flat is really difficult. It’s really difficult. So yes. And yes, I’m on… I get money… Welfare from the OCMW. When I call someone and say, ‘Yes, I want to rent an apartment,’ they say, ‘Yes, do you have a job?’ And I say, ‘No, I’m a student and I receive welfare.’ And they say, ‘No, thank you,’ and hang up. So it’s a bit difficult to find an apartment. Without a contract. Without a job. So yes… But now I have a good… A nice place. So… No worries.
[i] And which place do you like better?
[r] This one… There’s no comparison. Of course. This is 10 out of 10. The previous one… The previous one was 0 out of 10. So… I said it was a dump. So yeah.
[i] And now you have two rooms?
[r] Yes, now I have an apartment. I used to have a studio. Now I have a real apartment. Now I have a bedroom, a living room, a kitchen and a bathroom. So… Everything is separate. Nothing is included.
[i] And the location? Where is it better, here or there?
[r] It’s about the same. Because I cycle and Lier is small, so it doesn’t really matter.
[i] And how long does it take you to cycle?
[r] To the station? 10 minutes from here and 10 minutes from there. So… that’s why I said it’s about the same.
[i] And then you take the tram or the train?
[r] Train… Train… The train to Antwerp and then I take the bus to… My campus, Groenenborgerlaan.
[i] So… How long does your entire journey take?
[r] One hour.
[r] One hour there and one hour back every day.
[i] And do you have to travel to university every day?
[r] Every day, yes. I have classes every day.
[i] Five days a week?
[r] Five days a week, yes.
[i] Do you find it difficult?
[r] Of course. Of course. Because when I’m at home, I still have to study, I have to shower, I have to prepare dinner, I have to do the dishes and, well… I’m not like the other students. They don’t have to worry about food, clothes, washing up or doing laundry… Washing clothes and so on. So they just study and have fun. But for me it’s much more than that… So yes.
[i] And have you got used to Belgium yet?
[r] Yes… I can say ‘yes’.
[i] And when was the moment you realised you were used to it?
[r] There isn’t a moment. It comes little by little, so to speak. So… First Linguapolis, integrating more with the… With the community… And with society, integrating more with the people there… With the culture, with the language. So step by step I’m getting used to it.
[i] And do you think you’re integrated now? Integrated in Belgium?
[r] Sorry?
[i] Do you think you’re integrated now?
[r] Yes, I think so. Yes, I think so.
[i] And what was the hardest thing for you? Adapting to Belgium?
[r] Adapting?
[i] Or, well… Something that was really difficult to understand?
[r] Difficult? Why do the shops close at 6 o’clock? That was difficult to understand. I still don’t understand it. Come on. Life starts at 6 o’clock in the evening. Why? Why does everything close at 6 o’clock?! So I’m not used to that yet!
[i] Yes, people need to rest too.
[r] Yes, I know, I know. Instead of working 8 hours, there is an alternative, for example a student or someone who likes to work until 9 pm. Not all shops have to stay open until 9 pm. But the essential ones should. Lidl… Aldi… Delhaize. And yes… At least 7 p.m. Because, well… I’m done… Everyone is done with work at 6 p.m… university and so on. And if I want to buy something, I do that at the weekend. Only at the weekend… So yes. I don’t know.
[i] Maybe you need to plan your life a little.
[r] Yes, yes, yes. Yes… I’m used to it, but… I just don’t like it. So yes…
[i] And is there anything else? That is completely different from Syria.
[r] Different from Syria? Yes… I don’t know. I actually like travelling between cities here… Because Belgium is small and Syria is big. So yeah… I live in one city. I study in another city. I [unclear] in another city and I go to the sea… That all happens within one day. So it’s really funny. In Syria, if I want to go to the sea… That takes… That takes five to six hours… To get to the sea. So yeah.
[i] And do you get on well with Belgians?
[r] Yes, of course. We’re all human beings. I speak their language and I don’t have any strange habits. So yes. I get on well with everyone. Not just with Belgians.
[i] And do you think that’s because of your character? Because of your personality? Or that Belgian people are really friendly and they’re friendly to everyone?
[r] Yes… It’s partly because of my personality… And because Belgians are friendly. They’re not really… They’re not racist… They don’t say things like, ‘Oh, you’re from Syria.’ But actually… To be honest, nobody says that to me anymore. That I’m a foreigner or… They used to, a year or two ago… That’s because of my accent or because of… Or whatever. But now… Not really… There are people at university who don’t know I’m a foreigner. So yes. So yes.
[i] And have you ever had a difficult situation with Belgian people?
[r] Belgian people? But what do you mean by ‘difficult situation’?
[i] Yes… Something you didn’t like.
[r] Actually… Not yet. No. No. No. No. No. No bad things… Because I’m a refugee, you’re not allowed to do this, for example. No. Not yet. And hopefully never. So yes.
[i] But in general, what is your impression of Belgian people?
[r] Not the impression from ‘Nederlandkunde’ [a course at Linguapolis where it was explained that Belgian people are closed] that they are closed and go to bed at 10 o’clock and whatever… But yes… They are just people. There are racist people… friendly people, open people, closed people… The friendly people, the kind people… The mean people and the polite and the rude people… So it’s just a society that has all kinds of people. So yes. But my experience… Most experiences in Belgium are good. Not always good. But most experiences are good. So yes.
[i] And do you have a lot of contact with Syrian people in Belgium?
[r] Not really. Not really. Because I’m really focused on my goal of graduating and integrating into the country. Because if I were to spend time with the Syrian people who live here, I would never learn the language. Because I would be constantly busy with Arabic… I would be constantly busy with the culture of Syria… I’d be constantly preoccupied with the customs of Syrian people. So I’d never integrate. So… And I don’t want that. I know a few Syrian people, but my goal here isn’t to get to know Syrian people. My goal is to study, to integrate, to be able to speak the language well, and so on. That’s actually my goal. I want to become a Belgian, a, a, a… Become a citizen. I want to get rid of the label ‘foreigner’, you know. So.
[i] And is there a difference between the Syrian people you’ve met here in Belgium and Syrian people in Syria?
[r] In what way?
[i] Yes, in terms of behaviour.
[r] Behaviour? I have… I have… In Syria, I have people… I lived with people from my own city… My own customs… My own culture… The culture of the city. But here in Belgium, I have met different people. From Damascus, from Idlib, from I don’t know where… Somewhere in Syria. So of course I’ve met different people here. So yes, that’s everywhere. Every city has a kind of society, a kind of culture, a kind of custom and so on. So of course I’m going to meet different people here.
[i] And has your image of Belgium, of Europe, changed now?
[r] Of course, it’s changed to a realistic image.
[i] What is your image now?
[r] Image? I now have a more general image, so to speak. Every place has advantages and disadvantages. But it is our goal to determine what the interesting advantages are for us and what the interesting disadvantages are for us. That is why each person chooses a country, a place to live, and so on.
[i] And what are the advantages and disadvantages for you in Belgium?
[r] Disadvantages? There aren’t really any disadvantages… But… But… Yes, yes, I don’t know. Disadvantages… I don’t know what aspect you want to talk about…
[i] Yes, about everything that is important to you.
[r] Because, yes, there are many possibilities, there are many advantages here… And there are many opportunities to get ahead. Disadvantages? Disadvantages… I can’t really say anything about disadvantages because there aren’t any. [laughs]
[i] You just said that every country has advantages and disadvantages.
[r] Of course, of course, of course… but I’ve never… Well, I did experience some disadvantages in Brussels, for example. But here…
[i] And what was it in Brussels?
[r] Yes, for example, there is a disadvantage with the rent… Finding an apartment. It’s really difficult here and it can sometimes take two, three, four months to find an apartment. Sometimes for a dump. So I think that’s a disadvantage here… Finding an apartment is really difficult.
[i] And is it different in Syria?
[r] In Syria? As long as you have money, you can rent an apartment. That’s it. But here they really look at where you work, what you do, in detail, and ‘Yes, I’m going to compare you with the others and compare 15 clients, and yes, I think you’re handsome, I don’t think you’re handsome…’ And in Brussels, for example, they really look at your nationality. They say… one woman said to me in Brussels… I called and every time they ask, ‘Where are you from?’ But is that important? From… I’m from Mozambique. Does that make a difference? No. As long as I speak the language, as long as I’m polite, as long as I don’t do anything strange or wrong and… What’s the problem then? We’re all human beings, you know. But yes, in Brussels, one woman asked me: ‘Ah yes, where are you from?’ and I said: ‘Yes, I’m from Syria’ and she said: ‘Um… I see, I see… You know? I rent… I rent… My flat to Moroccans, to Turks, to Spaniards and not to… Not to you!’ And I said: ‘Okay. Okay, thank you. Thank you.’
[i] Didn’t you ask why?
[r] That’s why. Sometimes there is no ‘why.’ That’s why. ‘I don’t want to rent my apartment to you.’ Period.
[i] And why do you think that happens?
[r] Because of television. Because television broadcasts what it wants. There are no standards for television. So if, for example, I now go and look for the disadvantages of refugees, they will constantly broadcast the disadvantages of refugees. And they will ignore all the advantages of refugees. So that they don’t exist… Those advantages. And that’s actually what’s bad about television. So yes… There are people who can be convinced by television. Really. I watch television… I have no problem with Russian people, for example. I watch television or YouTube, for example, and I see three drunk men shocking each other with electricity, and I say, ‘Ouch! Russian people are crazy! I hate Russian people!’ For example, if I see a Russian girl, I’m going to say, ‘Ouch, you’re crazy! Yikes!’ But yeah… That’s just because of stupid people, really. So…
[i] Do you think it’s possible to change that?
[r] Of course, of course, of course. There’s always a reason to say that television doesn’t tell the truth. What you see on television isn’t the truth. That’s it. Some people need to realise that. But… they just don’t. Yes… That, I don’t know… a person, he’s a presenter and I believe him. If he says, ‘Smoking is healthy,’ then smoking is healthy. I’m going to smoke. Really. There are people who believe everything they see on television. I have that, I have that… I read that on the internet… It’s really true, people… And I’ve experienced it. That people believe what they see on television. But come on, television isn’t a live broadcast or anything. There are… they work 24 hours a day with Photoshop and video editing and so on. So. That’s not the truth. But yes.
[i] And how can people get information about what’s happening in the world?
[r] I don’t know. I don’t know.
[i] You can’t go to every country to check everything.
[r] Yes, of course. Of course. We just need more realistic television, so to speak. But come on, television is made to make a profit. So yes. I’m going to say: ‘I’m a journalist. And I’m going to sell that to a television channel and yes, they’re going to choose what’s interesting… What they find interesting. And they’re just going to throw away what they don’t find interesting. But maybe the content lies in the uninteresting… Content, you know? Maybe it’s not interesting to see or not fun to see… But yeah, that’s where the story is. Right? So yeah.
[i] Okay. And what do you think is the impact of migration on your life?
[r] Migration? I became an adult very early. So I see my friends at university. 18 years old. They’re children. I swear. Really. Kids. Children. Just: ‘Yeah, let’s dance, let’s eat, let’s do whatever…’ And not worrying about taxes. Not worrying about what I’m going to eat today. Not worrying about money… Today or tomorrow I’ll have money. So just study and have fun. Period. That’s what children do. So yeah.
[i] But for you it’s different.
[r] Completely different. I’m, I’m… 21 years old, but I’m in the same situation as people who are 28 or 29. And yes. I’m not a child anymore. So. I don’t know if that’s good or not, but… Sometimes I really want to be a child. But unfortunately… It’s too late.
[i] And do you still have trauma from fleeing the war?
[r] Trauma?
[i] And how do you deal with the trauma?
[r] Well, when I think about the journey, about fleeing, I lie down… Then I just start laughing. Because, yes, it’s actually funny. What I went through… And I’m still conscious… And I can still think clearly and so on. It’s just ridiculous what I went through. So.
[i] Now it’s ridiculous.
[r] Now it’s actually funny. But yes. I said that to myself three years ago: ‘[name], you’ll just laugh when you… When you think about this. You’ll laugh.’ And I actually do laugh. So yes… It’s better than crying, you know. [laughs]
[i] Yes, I know you’re still really young, but maybe you’re already thinking about… Your future?
[r] Always. Constantly thinking about the future. I don’t think that much about the… About the present [meaning the current time] about the…
[i] The past?
[r] No, no, not about the past. About the ‘present’, about now. So I’m constantly thinking about the future. What am I going to do? How am I going to improve myself? And how can I achieve that?
[i] What are your goals?
[r] Graduate. Get a good degree. Find a good job. Have a family here in Belgium. Get married. Have children. And so on. So not really much, but… That’s just the essentials. And only then will I start thinking about a business… about a… Or about something else, yes.
[i] And how will you raise your children? With Syrian stories and values, or Belgian values too?
[r] A mix. Because I’m a mix now. So I’m going to give my children the best of me. And they’ll just mix that with reality, with… What they… With their experience. And they’re going to make their own experiences… Do you understand? So I can’t give my children all of my experiences. I’m going to give my children the best I have. And over time, through society… Through what they experience, they’re going to make their own experiences. So yes.
[i] And do you think it’s important to pass on Syrian stories and values to your children?
[r] I’m going to take the best from all of them… The best of what I’ve found… The best of Belgium and the best I’ve found in Syria… Take that and teach it to my children, and when they become adults, at that point they will decide whether it suits them or not. So I’m going to do my best. But in the end, it’s their decision. It’s not my decision.
[i] Yes, but you have to start when they’re 1 or 2 years old…
[r] Of course. Of course. Yes, yes. I said that. I’m going to take the best of Syria and the best of Belgium and also the best of my experience and teach it to my children.
[i] And do you want to marry a Syrian girl or a Belgian girl? Or does it not matter?
[r] It doesn’t matter. As long as that girl or woman respects me, appreciates me and loves me. It doesn’t matter at all. Syria, Belgium, the Netherlands, Germany, it doesn’t matter. Russia. It doesn’t matter.
[i] And who is your ideal partner?
[r] Ideal partner? [laughs] In what way?
[i] In every way.
[r] Yes, I think… What’s important is that she respects me. She has to appreciate me because sometimes… Yes, I don’t know. She has to see [name]. And who [name] was. Not who [name] is now. Do you understand? Because, yes, for example, now. Now I’m not super rich… I don’t have a great degree. But in five years, who knows? So I want someone who isn’t going to look at my degree. And yes, look, [name] is an engineer. Damn! That’s the man I want. No. I want a woman who appreciates [name]. Who appreciates [name]’s character. Who loves [name]. Do you understand what I mean? And I’m going to do the same. Ten times more than her. Because I appreciate women very much. I have enormous respect for women. Incredible respect for women. So if she loves me, for example, I’m going to love her 100%. Do you understand? So yes. And I want to share my life with her. Because life is very difficult. I’m lonely. I’m alone. And I live alone and I realise that. I know that. That life is difficult. That’s why you have to share it. And I would really like to… If I could share it with love. What else do I want? Right? So yes. We shall see!
[i] And yes, if you get a chance to go back to Syria in the future, would you do it or not?
[r] Ah, go back permanently?
[r] Um… I don’t think so. Because I’ve already lost one life. So I don’t want to lose my life here. Because I’ve worked really hard. I’ve worked really hard to achieve things, to get a degree, to find a job, to find a flat. I’m not going to throw all that away to go back to Syria. Do you understand? So. I don’t want to build a third life. So… But who knows. Maybe. After thirty years, I’ll have enough money, family, and Syria will be stable, and I’ll want to go back there to live. That’s possible. But right now, I don’t plan to.
[i] And are you thinking about bringing your mother and sisters here?
[r] That’s my plan. That’s my plan. But it’s too early to do that. I don’t have the means to do that. So. Because I need a lot of money to do this. I need certainty to be able to do this, and I don’t have that. So yes.
[i] But I know you’re going on holiday now. For the Easter holidays. And that you might see your mother.
[r] Yes, that’s right. Yes, that’s right. After three years. I can finally see her.
[i] And where are you going to meet?
[r] Um… The only country where it’s allowed. In Malaysia.
[i] And how will it happen? Why is it the best place?
[r] It’s the only… it’s the only place where I don’t need a visa and my mother doesn’t need a visa to fly to Malaysia. That’s why. As simple as that.
[i] And how long are you going to stay there?
[r] One week. Ten days. Something like that. Because, well, Malaysia is expensive and I’m poor. My mother isn’t… She’s not super rich either. A little poor. So, yeah. But the point is to see her. That’s the whole point of the trip. So, yeah.
[i] It’s a nice moment.
[r] Of course. Of course. Of course.
[i] And I know you have a precious object with you. Can you tell me a little about this object, please?
[r] Yes… the scarf. My mother sewed it herself. With her own hands. For me. That was 4… 5 years ago, I think. And yes… It’s something that belongs to my mother. When I go to sleep, I sleep with it… with this scarf. To… to feel loved… To feel a kind of love, you could say.
[i] When you were 16?
[r] 17… 16… 17, I think. I don’t really remember very well, but… Something like that. 16, 15, 17, something like that…
[i] And is it actually that cold in Syria to wear a scarf like that?
[r] Yes, in Syria we have winter, spring… But the seasons in Syria are stable. Not like in Belgium. So it never rains in summer. Summer is summer in Syria. Spring is spring in Syria. Winter is winter in Syria. Not like in Belgium, a mix. Then all the seasons, for example in Belgium, I can see all the seasons in one day. Snow in the morning, sun in the afternoon, rain in the evening and cold at night, for example. So yes, we have winter, of course. And it’s cold there. Because in Syria I didn’t have anything to keep me warm. So I didn’t have heating in Syria. So of course that was… was… It was really necessary to sleep. And with three coats. And then you go to sleep and oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
[i] And do you still wear it here in Belgium?
[r] Yes. Occasionally. When I want to sleep. Especially when I want to sleep.
[i] But outside too, or not?
[r] Outside? I don’t dare. Because I’m afraid something will go wrong… Happen. And no… So no. I’m going to leave it here… Keep it here.
[i] And that always reminds you of your mother?
[r] I always think of my mother. With and without a scarf. After all, she’s my mother. And without her, I couldn’t have achieved anything. Because she really helped me. So yes.
[i] Okay. Okay [name]. Thank you for this interview.
[r] You’re welcome. You’re welcome.
[i] It was very nice and very interesting.
[r] Thank you. Thank you.
[i] Thank you.