SU_A_04

[i] Welcome.
[r] Thank you.
[i] My first question is, how do you feel about your homeland?
[r] Why not? It’s not that I don’t feel bad about my homeland. Because it’s a place where I was born and grew up. I have a lot of memories with it. Here, wherever I work, I always think about my homeland. To tell you the truth, I always think about my homeland.
[i] What about your memories of your homeland? About my homeland?
[r] It’s very… It’s very… It’s good, but it’s also very bad. I don’t know if I should start by saying that it’s good or bad. The good thing about it is that it’s a country of its own, and you are free to do whatever you want. You can do anything you want, and you are free to do whatever you want. You can work with it and get what you want. This is the good thing about our country. The bad thing is that the politicians of the world don’t allow us to live. This is the bad thing. The Afghans are very interesting people. It’s true that there are good and bad things in every country. But if we look at it carefully, if we look at it from a different perspective, we find people that we can’t get rid of. I’m telling you the truth. When you live in one place and move from one place to another, it becomes clear to you whether our country, our people, is good or bad. This is clear to you. But if there is no one who can keep you alive, then we are definitely bad. We are bad in the face of the bad, and we are better in the face of the good. The other thing is that we don’t have anything in our country. We don’t take anything bad from each other. But other people who are playing tricks on us, they have hurt us. Pashto, Farsi, Azara, Uzbek, Tajik, Turkmen, this and that. They have created this between us. We were not like this before. I mean, you may or may not have read the history of Afghanistan and what people went through in Afghanistan. There are a lot of… There are a lot of people who have been defeated there. It was impossible for others, but what has happened there? The English have been defeated there three times. Their teeth have been broken there. But they still have no shame. They still shake hands in our country. And… But the world is like this today. Today, if we think about it, we call white people black, and we call black people white. This is the reality of today’s world. Everyone says… If you say to them that they are white, they say, no, they are black. Why do they still say that they are black? This is a war. These are very painful words. The truth gets cancelled And that right is not being recognized. This is really painful. And for me… I keep thinking that why did we change? Why is the right not recognized? Why can’t we agree on something? Why can’t we be united? Why don’t we give the world a better life? Why should there always be hell, hatred and bloodshed? Until when? If we think about the previous generations, they were ignorant and so on. We are better than them now. We should be better, but now we are worse. It was good in the past. Those who wanted to fight, were divided into groups. Now they are sitting in America, with a remote in their hands, throwing bombs. Their eyes are blind. They don’t know where they are going. The media is also against it. What they say, they should spread.
[i] Do you have good memories of Afghanistan? From your childhood and youth?
[r] Yes, why not? My childhood was a time when I didn’t have a chance to return. I was with good friends. I was with my friends. We played a lot of games.
[i] What kind of games did you play?
[r] We played Khusai. We would take one foot, and we would hit the other. We played Tushla. I don’t remember the name.
[i] Tushla?
[r] Tushla. Yes, we had a game. We would tell them a game of cards. A game of cards. From the sheep.
[i] Yes, from the sheep. We would play with these.
[r] And that’s it. There were a lot of other things, too.
[i] Life in our country, and now Afghanistan, is very much related to community. What kind of families do you have in your family? How many people were there in your family?
[r] We are four brothers and four sisters. All of my sisters got married and my brothers too. I have a brother who went to school during the time of Najib. When the Mujahideen came, he did not come anymore. And we also left the area because of the war.
[i] Where did you come from?
[r] We lived in Kabul at that time. My father was from the time of Zahir Khan to the time of Dawod Khan. When the Degas came, in the name of Communists and people, he left the area. And we had personal work. We lived there in Kabul. When we left there, there was a war in Kabul. Then with my brother who was abroad, we lost contact.
[i] Where did you go after that?
[r] We left Kabul. We went to Qazni, our own city.
[i] Qazni?
[r] Yes.
[i] So you were born in Qazni?
[r] Yes.
[i] What year?
[r] In the year of 1981.
[i] 1981?
[r] Yes. Qazni is in the city itself. I was born in Goliswali. Qazni is in the city of Goliswali. My father had a military service at that time. We were there. There was a lot of war there too. Then we went to Kabul. And from Kabul, we lived for a while. Then when the Mujahideen came, we came to Qazni. Qazni was the place where my father was born. I mean, my father’s area.
[i] Yes.
[r] Yes.
[i] What year was it? When did you start thinking about leaving the country? What year was it?
[r] It didn’t cross my mind. And… I didn’t want to. But leaving my country forever was not my plan. However, there comes a time when it is not just about you, but also about the lives of your spouse and children. When you are alone, your life is different. You can live in the fire. When you are married and have children, you have to become a different person. You have to change. And you have to have a better life. Every father wants his children to have a better life. And because they were not alone, they did not do anything, I wanted them to leave the country.
[i] When was that?
[r] 2008.
[i] 2008?
[r] Yes.
[i] Were you alone? Were you with your family?
[r] No, we were alone.
[i] How did you come out of Afghanistan? Did you have to fly?
[r] No, no.
[i] How did you come out?
[r] I flew.
[i] How long did it take you to leave the country?
[r] I came out of Afghanistan a few times. Before I left. In 2008. But then Iran sent me away.
[i] Yes, Iran sent you away.
[r] Yes. Then Iran sent me away. I was beaten and beaten. But I don’t want to go through all that. Everyone knows that when they come to Iran, they know everything. And in the end, I wanted to talk to someone. I didn’t want to come to Europe. I wanted to live in Iran. But our countries are cruel. They don’t have mercy. And they don’t think about who they are and why they came. Iran, Pakistan, Arab countries, they know that if they do something to you, they will put oil on your skin and throw it back at you. And I didn’t want to go there. Why? I didn’t want to go there. Because Iran is a very brutal country. The people who live there or work there, I know what situation they are living in. When they get a job, they don’t know what to do. They need money and other things. Otherwise, they don’t want anything. I can’t do anything about it, but the law is not a thing for us. Then in 2008 I came out and people told me that I can’t go here, I have to go forward. I said where should I go? They said Europe. Then I decided to go to Europe. Believe me, I didn’t know Belgium. I didn’t know if Belgium was a country or not. Until 2008. When I arrived in Turkey, then, I decided which country to go to. There they told me that Belgium is a good country. I didn’t know its name. I asked them what Belgium is. Is it Dehad? Is it a city? They said no, it’s a country. I said it’s very good. But it’s very difficult. I came to Greece. I came from Greece to Italy. I came from Italy to France. And finally I came to Belgium.
[i] How long did it take the whole journey? The whole journey was nine or eight months.
[i] Eight or nine months.
[r] Yes.
[i] You went from Iran to Turkey on land.
[r] Yes, yes.
[i] You didn’t go by air.
[r] No, no, no.
[i] What did your family think? Did your mother and brother agree? Did they agree?
[r] No. They did a lot of things. No, they were mostly afraid. Why? Because we often heard that people drowned in the sea during the escape. Why? In Greece, people try to come to Italy. And everyone has to find a place for themselves to fly. They get under the car. And when there are four tires on the back, one of the three gets up. They get in there. The driver doesn’t know who is there or not. When he moves, he wants to raise one of the three. He always gets shot. he gets shot. And other things, when there are ships, Turkish ships to Greece, there are seas of things. And when there is a storm, the ships are blown down. And they don’t have that much force to make a storm. Or the ship will be destroyed, or the boat will be flooded or something like that. It is very dangerous. But we still did what God and I had to do. Everything that happened.
[i] Do you remember what kind of company you had? Did you have a boat? Did you have a car?
[r] Yes, I had a big bag. I was wearing a lot of clothes. I was wearing my wedding dress. When we crossed the border between Iran and Turkey, we were about 150-200 people. There were a lot of Iranians and Afghans in Pakistan. They wanted us to go to Qachi Akbar, which is behind us. We had to be very quiet there. It was like this. If you go up, you have to go up again. If you go up again, you’ll be in Turkey. If you go up, you’ll be in Iran. It was like this. It was very dark at night. You couldn’t see where the border was. We crossed the border in one way or another. There were about 150-200 people. I was in the front line. When half of us entered the territory of Turkey, half of us entered the territory of Turkey. We were waiting for the other to enter the territory of Turkey. At that time, in Iran’s border, there was a dog that we heard someone’s voice. When he shouted, the police heard him and we woke up. When the police heard the voice, Qachi Akbar was in front of us. And then the smuggler said to us, ‘Run away’ and don’t wait. And you don’t know where to go, just run. Climbing the hills was particularly difficult. That’s why I had to leave my suitcase behind. Otherwise, I couldn’t run away quickly. Once you leave the hill behind, you’re in Turkey and the Iranian agents can’t stop you. On the other side of the border you’re safe. But many people couldn’t climb the hill quickly and were caught by the guards. The guards asked us to come back. But of course we didn’t. The people who were caught were badly beaten by the police. beaten by the police. But we had to leave them behind.
[i] Are you sad because of the wedding suit?
[r] Yes, sure? But now it’s gone.
[i] Do you also have this issue in Afghanistan that if your family doesn’t come to visit you, your life will be in danger?
[r] Yes. The family comes back, but the life doesn’t come back. The life that has gone, has gone.
[i] Exactly.
[r] Yes.
[i] During this time that you were traveling, these 8-9 months, did you contact your family? How did you talk to your family? Did you talk to them? Did you tell them anything?
[r] No. Nothing. I had no contact with them. I didn’t have any contact with them.
[i] Why?
[r] Because Ghazni is a place where there is always war.
[i] Of course, there is war.
[r] You can only do this in the city of Kabul. Now, a lot has happened. You can only do this in the city of Ghazni. You can only do this in the city of Kabul. Ghazni, you had a picture on your phone. It was in 2008 or 2009. Now it’s a little bit less. You can talk to someone during the day, but not at night. You can’t do it at night.
[i] Still?
[r] Still.
[i] What is the reason? The reason is for something. One of them is the Taliban. The government doesn’t want to do anything either. The Taliban should contact the Taliban and make a plan to do something. There is an agreement on both sides.
[i] When you arrived in Belgium, which city did you arrive in first?
[r] Brussels.
[i] Brussels.
[i] Was it day or night?
[r] It was day. It was day. We arrived in Brussels. And usually the people on the other side were with us. There was a person with me who said that I was something. I had an English course in Afghanistan. When two people are with you, your heart is full. I didn’t know anything. Persian, Dari, Pashto, and Urdu. Those languages don’t work here. I asked him, where are we going? What are we going to do? We don’t know. Now we don’t know what we are going to do here. This is the first time. We haven’t seen the city in our lives. People. What should we do? There are other people. These are different people who don’t know how to speak with others. I said, what kind of a manager were you? What did your students learn from you? But I tried. I learned something from the movie. Excuse me! I couldn’t speak anymore. Excuse me, and then it stopped. The one who was talking was talking to me. Then I pulled him out and told him to talk to me. He also talked to him. And the one who was passing by, I asked him what he was talking about. There was nothing special. But he told me what he was going to do and what he wasn’t going to do. Then I realized that this wasn’t going to work. So I went to the police. I didn’t have a passport. Then he started talking to me in English, French or Dutch. I didn’t understand a thing. Then he said to me, Did you understand what he was saying? I said yes. That was it. Those were the days when I didn’t have much time. I was very tired of those days. I regretted it. Why did you come to this country where no one knows your language? Why did you come to a place where no one knows who you are? Where did you come from? I really had a lot of pressure. Why did you come here? In the end, I sat in a park. I wondered what to do now. I woke up at 11 in the morning and got up at 5 in the morning. I was in the city of Brussels. No one was helping me. In the end, I was really tired. When I got up, I sat in a chair and I saw that two or three people were coming from Asia. I understood who they were. They were Indians. I asked them, do you speak Urdu? One of them said, no, I don’t. I said to him, this is interesting. When you don’t understand a language, how do you know so much that you don’t know what to say? He laughed and said, what’s the problem? I said, I’m new here and I don’t know where to go and what to do. He looked at the clock and said, it’s five o’clock and the police station is closed. You can stay here. If there’s a police station here, go there. I said, that’s good. The police won’t arrest me. I told him, no problem. He said, go there and they won’t arrest you. I said, okay, fine. When I went there, I sat there and there was nothing. There was no police or anything. There was only one police officer and he said, get down. When I went downstairs, there was something under the road, it was a police station. I called there. When I called, a policeman said to me, What do you want? I said, I don’t have a passport. He said, why don’t you have one? I said, I want to have something. He said, come inside. We went inside, and he was with us. He started searching for something. He found something in my pocket. He took it to a room and took it to our room. When we got out of the room, he asked me, Where are you from? I said, I am from Afghanistan.
[i] Did you have any experience? No, no. My friend was with us.
[i] He translated it for you.
[r] Yes, he translated it for us. He asked, where are you from? I said, I am from Afghanistan. Why don’t I look like Afghanistan? He said, no, you are not Afghan, you are Arab. I said, no, I am Afghan. I had an Afghan ID in my pocket. I gave it to him. And he took it inside. The manager said, you are Pakistani. You are not Afghan. Whatever he did, he made fun of me. He said, I am not Pakistani. I am Afghan. So I said, he is Afghan. He took it inside. I thought the interview was good. His friend, a friend, has to answer whatever I ask him. My friend left. The back-door came and said, come, it is up to you. I said, fine. He left. It was winter. During the winter, it was very cold. I could not go outside.
[i] Why?
[r] It was March In March 2009.
[i] You arrived in March 2009?
[r] Yes. Because it was hot there, and it was not cold outside, I wore two or three coats and jackets. He asked me to take off my clothes. I said, this is Europe, if you want to take a shower, come and take an interview. I quickly took off my clothes and left. He said, go inside. When the war ended, I saw a prison. I was very tired. I didn’t know if it was a prison or not. There was a toilet here and there was a place for people to sit and drink. There was also a camp. There were a lot of things on the wall. I said, are you sleeping? He said, no. He said, are you sleeping at this time? I said, yes. He said, go to your room, I will sleep. I decided to sleep. At 11 o’clock in the morning, the police came and said, wake up. I came back. I took off my clothes and put the papers in my hands and left. At 11 o’clock in the morning, where should we go? I said, we will stay here until the morning. He said, no, it is not allowed. Let’s go wherever we go. Then we came out of the prison. We had to find a place to sleep. It was raining. I said, let’s go find a hotel to sleep. Until the morning. He said, we will sleep in the park. The hotel is over there. Where should we find it? Then I had to find a shop. It was a Pakistani shop. It was an Indian movie. I started to talk to the shopkeeper in Urdu and asked him where we can stay. And the shop owner gave us the address of a hotel. I talked to the admin. When I talked to him, he said, what is the problem? I said, the place. He said, go a little further, there is a hotel. I said, okay. We went to the hotel. An African person was sitting with him and he didn’t understand a word. We said, I will sleep here. He said, very good. We said, I don’t own a passport, but I have this piece of paper. He took the paper from the police. He said, good. We moved to the room. He asked, go to the room. We slept in the room and it was morning and we moved in the morning. We said, let’s go to the police station. He said. Finally, when we arrived at the police station, there was no more time, and they told us that we were not allowed to let anyone in, and that we had to go to a camp in Petit Château. We went there, but in the end, the injuries were very serious. But we found a way to do something about it.
[i] How did you get to the camp?
[r] When we went to the police station, they gave us an address to go to the camp.
[i] Did you go by bus?
[r] No, no, no. There were a lot of people here. There were Afghans and other people. When they came, they told us to go by foot, because it was close. We were there for two weeks, three weeks, and then they sent us to Kapellen. There were other memories of Kapellen and other things. I was there until 2010. In the year 9, I returned to Antwerp and went home.
[i] The year 9 of 2010.
[r] Yes.
[i] So it took a long time. A few months more.
[r] Yes, nine months.
[i] Nine months before Kapellen.
[r] Yes.
[i] Do you remember being afraid when you first arrived in Belgium? Were you afraid or were you nervous?
[r] I wasn’t afraid. But I was very quiet. I am a very quiet person. I don’t talk much. I didn’t talk much with anyone. I was very quiet. And when I came here, there was a lot of pressure and other things. I was very quiet. But in the end, there were people there and we talked and talked. Slowly, after two or three months, our language improved. One person said, [name], you will learn to speak from here. I laughed and told him that I don’t know my own language. How will you learn this? He said, that we live here and have to speak the language. I really couldn’t speak. I couldn’t speak. He is a person whom I love very much and who has helped me a lot. He is a very good friend of mine and a very good teacher. I can’t do anything for him that I don’t want to mention his name. He said, no, don’t do anything. I went to school to study. The next day, he asked me to give an exam. I said, what kind of exam? He said, he will give you another exam. I said, I will give you another exam and then I will do something in another class. I said, okay.
[i] Where were you? No, Kapellen.
[i] So you were still in the camp when you started to study?
[r] Yes. From there, we came a little far from Kapellen. We came to the city of Kapellen and did something. When I got a job, I came to the city of Kapellen. The next day, we were doing an exam. I took a student with me. He lived in [name]. I took him with me. I don’t know how to speak in the language. But he wanted to study translation for me. I said, okay. When we arrived, he spoke French and Dutch. I had spent a lot of time in Belgium, but I didn’t have enough money to buy a house. When I went there, the teacher gave me a piece of paper with my name and address on it. I had an orange card at the time, so I drew it and wrote my name and address on it. The teacher gave me another piece of paper and said, Circle this, and write the address I’m telling you. I said, OK. He said, circle this. I found this and I circled it. I knew some addresses. He said, OK. Then, I found a piece of paper, which had a line on one side, letters on one side, and a mix on the other. I said, you have to find these letters and write them down. He said, you know these letters and you have to find them. He gave me another piece of paper. I said, OK. He said, I’ll tell you what to do. You just have to write a line on it. He said, OK, OK. But what did he do? He asked me a few questions. I found it. In the end, he asked me this. I didn’t know this. That this is a different kind of paper. What did he do? This. This. I tried. I tried. I tried. I said, this isn’t a letter. My neighbour laughed at me. He said, don’t laugh. I gave him the paper again. He said, it’s not a letter. He gave it to me again. He said, it’s true. You find it. He went back and forth for two or three times. Finally, I didn’t find the letter. There was nothing else. He said, it’s fine, we’ll send you a post. And after two weeks, three weeks, the post came and the school started. The first day was very difficult, how it should be and how it shouldn’t be. When we went to school, it was easy. On the first day, we had to write down our names. My name is very sharp. I have 11 letters. It was very difficult to write down all of them. Wherever I sat, I wrote down my name. I wrote down my name a thousand times. I wrote down my name a thousand times. I wrote down a lot of things. That’s how it all started. Now I can write down stories and things in this language.
[i] That’s impressive.
[r] Yes.
[i] When you were in Afghanistan, Qasmi or Kabul, did you go to school?
[r] School was there. Yes, I went to school there. It’s one day and not one month. It’s one month and not six months. It’s closed. When I came from Kabul, I was very young. When school started, we came to Ghazni. When we came to Ghazni, we were far away from the city. It didn’t work out. We stayed and stayed and stayed. I tried to learn something. When I started, I asked someone what I was doing. In the end, I went somewhere. I went to work. I went to work. After that, I left the city. After a few months, I learned what I had learned. I learned everything. Now I can’t read or write in my mother tongue. It’s a very painful place. It’s very painful for me. It is very painful. Now that I am trying, I am trying to learn.
[i] But in Dutch you say poetry, you write stories.
[r] Yes.
[i] Are these stories about your own life or, for example, stories of the country, stories of the place you grew up in? What are the main topics of poetry?
[r] Most of them are about my personal life. Most of the stories I write are about my heart. And most of them are about war and misfortune. I have many thoughts and stories that are all in my head. I just write about the events in my life and people who read those stories and poems find them very interesting. What I saw and what I didn’t see, it was all in my mind. My stories are very moving for people. But I try not to bring the pain of me to people but to bring hope and positive aspects. Now I try day by day to bring it back to my mind. People cry and I always try not to show any pain. I don’t want anyone who hears my story to feel pain. The pain that I had, the pain that I went through, I know what pain is. And I don’t want to cause pain to anyone else or make them feel pain. But still, the pain doesn’t go away. It always goes away. There are so many stories.
[i] When you went to the Kapellen camp… How was the first night you slept there? Did you feel better? Did you have any symptoms? Or were you still stressed?
[r] No. At that time, I was in a completely new state. Everything changed. I was alone. Thankfully, they were alive. But I was far away from them. Everyone came to me. It was a very new life for me. I’m still with them. They remember me. I’m still with them. I’m still here. But it’s not that I’ve been here for about ten years or so. Ten years and ten years… But my country is still remembered. It’s there. I don’t know what will happen to us after this life.
[i] When did your wife come?
[r] My wife came much later. At that time, the documents were not ready. No one tried to help me. Until my documents were ready, I went there and did my work. After that, she came on the 20th of January 2018. She has been with me for 3-4 months now.
[i] Were your children born in Afghanistan or here?
[r] No, my children were born in Afghanistan.
[i] How many children?
[r] Four. I have two sons and two daughters.
[i] Do they live here with you?
[r] Yes. Did they get used to it? Yes, they did. How long did it take them to come here? A short time. Their language is difficult. They always ask me what I am saying. I can help them to some extent. They learn a lot. They spend a lot of time at school. Sometimes, I cannot answer their questions. This is a problem.
[i] They are still very young.
[r] Yes, they can learn fast.
[i] Yes, they learn very fast.
[r] Yes.
[i] How were the people here when you first came? What was your first impression of the people here? Were they good people? Were they warm people? Did they help? What is your experience from the people here?
[r] When you do not understand a language, it is difficult to understand people. When you see people, you understand what their specialties are. What kind of people they are and what kind of things they are. One of the best memories I have of the people is the white women of Belgium. They are very kind. They always help you well. Men are good, but they are less open. They are very strict. But their women are very good. They do very good things with me. They do very good things. When I asked for addresses, I would ask for the old woman. I would ask the woman who is more patient. And she would explain to me very well. Why I did not move like this, how I should put my hands on my shoulders while I am walking. How I should show my right hand. To some extent, I could get an address from her. I was able to get the address, but when I reached there, I was forced to ask someone else. But the women always showed the right way. When I asked the men, they would take me by surprise. They didn’t want me to talk to me. Not all of them, but most of them. Others are good people. They do not interfere with your affairs It is a great good thing. They don’t tell you what you’re doing, where you’re from, why your clothes are yellow on one side and white on the other. And that person is also forced to talk to you, and you talk to him in your language. And if he wants to or doesn’t want to, he will give you an answer.
[i] Do you have Afghan friends or Belgian friends?
[r] In Belgium.
[i] Here.
[r] Here. Well, if you ask me, personally, I have a lot of Belgian friends. Because I always tried to find Belgian friends, so that my language would improve, so that I could talk to them, and whatever I wrote, they would correct it. I can write something, but it’s not 100% correct. It has to be corrected. And to correct it, I have a lot of Belgian friends, and I have a lot of good friends, and they have always helped me, encouraged me. And if I have to say, most of them are women.
[i] Do you prefer… There are a lot of Afghans here?
[r] Yes.
[i] There are a lot of Iranians, and a lot of Pakistanis. What bothers you if you want to talk to the Afghan people?
[r] Well, one thing that bothers me, and I don’t want to sit with an Afghan, is that there is a lot of fighting, and talking about bad things, and thinking about bad people. And I don’t want to talk about these things, and I don’t want to sit with them. I have a good relationship with them, and I talk to them, and I listen to them. But I am interested in the things they do, or the people who are fighters, and they are fighting among themselves. This is very, very painful. First, the war is bad, and then, when we come so far away from it, all of this is the result of the war, of the hatred and things we have brought with us. Until the hatred and things are gone, it takes a lot of time. And if I were to say that there is something in life that makes me feel bad, and that makes me feel bad, then that is war. Anyone who fights, will suffer from it. And then, when they pull out their knives, the things they pull out, are very painful. If you have something powerful in your hand, then hit the person. If you hurt them with something, they will also hit you. There is no problem with that. But if you get a cane, then that person is non-man. He is young. When you get something, you hit someone else. In my opinion, anyone who has teeth, it does not hurt me, but if they get knives, It is not safe for me. I am not afraid of those people and I am not involved in their stories.
[i] How do you see the cultural difference between the Afghan society, the place where you grew up, and here?
[r] There is a lot of cultural difference. What we have, we don’t have. What we have, we don’t have. There is one thing here, which is freedom. And everyone has their own freedom or whatever they want. I can move forward as far as I want. And our country, or our countries and you, don’t have a lot of things that they remember. For example, there is a saying that if you ask any child here, they will talk to you. Or if a child asks about their elders, they will answer you very well. And there is one more thing about us. When you are sitting in a meeting, in a small room, you have to be quiet. As long as you are quiet, you are such a good person. Don’t ask or do anything. This is not good. We have to change this. And the child has to remember this. He has to ask what this is and what that is. And you have to have the opportunity to talk to him. You have to say, this is what this is, this is what this is, this is what that is. Until you convince him. And if he doesn’t ask you, you have to be quiet. He will make a person out of you. He will talk to you. And you have to be quiet all the time. And you have to be quiet all the time. And this is another thing that makes us happy. There are many other things that we can talk about. And this is one of the many things in our culture. It is clear that we have something in the past but we don’t have anything now in return.
[i] Did you have a religious family?
[r] Yes.
[i] When you came here, was it very difficult?
[r] A person who is a little older doesn’t make a big difference in your life. When a person is younger, it is a big difference in your life. For example, underage people are affected by alcohol very quickly.
[i] Good or bad?
[r] Negative things happen very quickly. And they don’t realize it. When they realize it, the time is over. An example of negative things is that alcohol is found in every shop here. Alcohol is found in every shop here. And this is also true for the elderly. But when they drink alcohol, all the bad things happen to them. They go on the wrong path. This is what happens. I wasn’t affected by anything. That person does this, that person does that. That person does this, that person does that. Until today, I have been like this. I may have changed something. But in my religion, I am who I am. And I am who I am. And until today, I have tried not to touch or touch these things.
[i] How old is your oldest son?
[r] 17.
[i] 17?
[r] Yes.
[i] How old are the others?
[r] 14, 12 and 2.
[i] How do you try to help the first three children who are most affected by alcohol? Tell them to help me so that they won’t be affected.
[r] The good thing about this is that until the age of 18, these things are forbidden.
[i] Yes.
[r] This is their good side. And since then, even to an extent, these things have been a part of me at school. And the other thing that I can do with him is to give him advice and talk to him and tell him that there is a way to go and there is a way to go. If you want to go, go. If you don’t want to go, leave it to yourself. I will tell him that there is a wrong way and there is a right way. I want to tell him what my father told me. It depends on whether he accepts it or not. Until I accept him, I can tell him. After that, when he is mature, I will tell him. I don’t have the right to do anything. There is no pressure on me. In Islam, it is like this. Until you are mature, you have to be in control and do the right things. After that, when you are mature, there is no problem. After that, it depends on him what he does. After that, he is mature.
[i] It is not difficult to be Muslim here. I mean, there is a mosque here for praying. But it may be difficult for him too.
[r] No, it is not difficult at all. I accept Islam. I mean, they have given something for Islam. Islam is religion. They respect it. And they have allowed Muslims to have a mosque for themselves. And to have places. So they can have a place. And their happiness and pain are there. So they can have a place to go to. And I have nothing for myself. I have worked in the mosques in Afghanistan. But not here. I worked here. In the mosque. We built two mosques in Antwerp, we worked on both of them, and even one was in Gil, and we helped them in Gil as well. There is nothing like this. In our countries, there is a concept that this is my religion, this is my religion, this is Shia, this is Sunni, but here there is nothing like that. The Hindus here have a religion, the Jews also have one, the Muslims have one, the Jews have one, and other religions that we don’t know, or know, have their own freedoms.
[i] Did anyone ever come to you because of the country you come from, because of the language you speak, or because of the religion you have? Did anyone ever bring you back here? The problem of salvation, the problem of Tabriz?
[r] No, no. There is no such thing as a place. But there are some places or some people who can’t be counted. There are those who always complain.
[i] Do you have experience?
[r] Yes, I have.
[i] Have you ever come to you?
[r] Yes, but I don’t say anything in front of them. I don’t say anything in front of them. We have these people too. We have dangerous places. I have no knowledge of those people. Why? Because they don’t know why these people came. Why did these people come here? What is the reason? If we think about it, I don’t see Afghanistan or any other country in Europe. The mountains, the air, the scenery that Afghanistan has, I haven’t seen it here. Everything is a land of things. It is right. There are other beautiful things, but the things that are there are not here.
[i] What kind of culture do your sons and daughters like?
[r] Personally, I am someone who, even in my own stories, I try to be a person that strives to live by every religion, every religion, every person, I can’t say that this is not religion or religion, or that this person is not with us. It is impossible. And every politician who has a misunderstanding of this is wrong. And he should think that we can never separate a nation, a religion, a religion from another. I want my children and my sons to be such people that they have a voice for everyone. And personally, I don’t want anyone to have a voice for anyone. I don’t want anyone to have a voice for anyone. I have no problems with religion and religion. I have respect for all of them. Because it is in our religion that every person is respected. And I am one of those people who have respect for all religions. And the fact that politicians or other people misinterpret our religion, and translated it wrongly, or misinterpreted it, this is a bad luck. It is not our religion. Some people say that these things are in the Quran. Why? Why? He didn’t read it. If he had read it, he would have known what the Qur’an was saying. He even said that if you kill one innocent person, it means that you have killed all human beings. Otherwise, people who kill others will be ignorant and they will forcibly pay. I don’t have any other aim.
[i] As a Belgian citizen, do you think that our society will improve? What kind of society would you like to have in Belgium? In the future, for the children and youth…
[r] Yes, to a certain extent, the law and things here are good, but if we think about it, we can also say that Belgium is a small world. We can find people from all over the world, and this is something that is very important to me. It is a pleasure and I love it very much. I love the whole world. And there are three places in the world that I love the most. I can’t name them all. One is where my parents and relatives came from, and the other is where I was born, and my parents. And the other is Belgium, which I will never take away from my life and will never leave it. The other is where I was born, and everything else I remember is gone. That is a different story. But when my parents came, they were my relatives. My parents are from Afghanistan, and they are my relatives from a long time ago. And the country of Afghanistan, because I was born there, I grew up there, and it was very good. I have interesting things from there. My family and everything is there. And Belgium is a country that changed my life. It made me a different person. If I were to tell you the right thing, I would say that in my life I have done a lot of bad things. I mean, I have done things that I still, in my opinion, fear. How did you work there? And how did you survive there? I mean, I worked in some difficult places. I never thought about why I worked there. Or why I was working there. I mean, it didn’t hurt me. Something that hurt me, I would always suffer from it. And I would always… I mean… Now, what can I say for you? Most of the time, I have cried about it. Why am I so bad? And why am I so bad? And… And why should I not have anything? And… I mean… Most of the time, I thought about it. Why can this person do this and I can’t? Why didn’t I do this? Why is this person working so hard? Why is he going to school? Why is he studying? Why is he doing this? Why can he do this and I can’t? This is a very old story. But sometimes, I would not even think about it. Why can he do this and I can’t? And… In Belgium, Belgium… Well… These things changed me. It is true that the mother tongue and other things… If I learned my own language more, I could write more things. I could read and write. But… Right now, in this situation, when I learned my own language, and… I did something, or… There are a lot of things. I mean… Really… Other times, when… I was talking about… School and other things, my eyes were not filled with tears. And now, they are not. Because… I have suffered all the pain. And… Now… My eyes are not filled with tears. This… Is something that… Here… There is a possibility… For you… That you… Can do something… for yourself. But… You have to make an effort. You have to make an effort… To get there. And… Always… If you want something… And… You want that thing to be yours… You have to… Be forced to that… Whatever the easier it is, you should make the most effort… Until… That thing is in your hands. Until… And I… From 2009 which… About 2009 which… I went to school… Despite the fact that I did not go as far… Even though I did not go as far as school… I did not go so far… I completed perhaps… Second exams and maybe. . Quarter time… victimization… I… to… Finally, I passed the exam. I didn’t pass the exam. I went on a trip. I passed the exam. I don’t have a Tuipundri diploma, but most of the people who read my letters, who are of my class, say that it is impossible. It is impossible, because I worked in other places. People who don’t work, who are retired, and I asked them for help. There are many places here where you can make something of yourself. And this is a very good thing. It is great. And I personally tell my friends and relatives that at that time we didn’t have anything there. We had a job, but there was no school for adults. Now you have the time. Take it, learn it. But most of them think differently about me. They say that I have a nationality, I have a job, what can I do at school? Or they think that I have to find a good job, or I have to learn to speak. No, I can’t speak. Or to someone, you can say that I am not a doctor, I am not an engineer, but it doesn’t have to be that you are a doctor or an engineer. You can be a person who is a person of promise. If we all become doctors and engineers, what else can we do? You can become a good painter. You can become a good writer. There are many jobs in this world, but there is no need for them. I should become an engineer or a doctor. I still don’t know much about it. But I still don’t know how to become a doctor or an engineer. The things I do, I can’t do as a doctor. These are ordinary things. I can’t do as a doctor, but a doctor can’t do as I can. But this is a normal thing.
[i] What was your job before coming to Afghanistan? What did you do to raise your salary?
[r] Construction work. I’m good at construction work. In many areas. I’m a carpenter. I’m also a carpenter. I also like painting. I like working with colors. I also do farming.
[i] Farming.
[r] Yes.
[i] You’re a carpenter.
[r] Yes, I’m a carpenter. I really like these jobs. I’m very happy with flowers. I wish I had flowers and a garden. Now that I have a small house here, I have a little piece of land. And 40 different flowers. And… When you came here, could you find work in this field? Or did you have to go around? What did you like to do when you came here?
[i] There is a lot of work here. And what I remember is that there is work. But the problem is that it is difficult to get in from the place you are in. And the other problem is that there is a lot of work here. The problem is that you don’t have a language, you don’t have a language that you don’t know. You can’t get to the work that you want to do. And here most of the people who are abroad don’t want to learn the language properly. They want to have a proper job for themselves. I also wanted to have a job in construction. Construction or something. I am also good at agriculture. My father, God forgive him, I worked a lot with him on the land. He was also a land lover. He liked agriculture very much. He also liked the industry very much. But later, when I started working here at the Article 60. I started working in a place called Teled. When I went there, I worked with him. He recommended me to work at the Article 60 [work experience programme run by the government] There are many different jobs at the company where I work. But at that company, I had problems with my colleagues and I was fed up. Then I found another job. At the end of the day, Manus also became a bit of a thing, and he made me very sad at the end. And now I am sad for him. But we found another place, we went to another place.
[i] What is the work now?
[r] Now the work is in the water. We walk in the water and the work is good and the work is bad. The bad thing is that you find a lot of stress. You find a lot of frustration.
[i] Why?
[r] Because you think about people. You think about them. Why are we so bad? Why do we have to be so bad? Why do we have to look after the place where we live? How long do we have to be so weak and thoughtless? Most of the time when I go to work, I think about this. Why are we like this? But here they have made everything. They have made everything because of everything. But even if we take all the work from home and put it on a bicycle, put it in a bicycle and put it in a bicycle until there is a place, why is that? Because… One day you make a mix, and now it is very easy. You can make a mix several times a day. The vegetables are available, the bottles are available, the paper is available, and other things are available, and you don’t get that much money. You don’t get that much money. But still, people…
[i] What is good about it?
[r] The good thing is that in [name] we travel a lot. We travel about 30 kilometers a day on foot. 30 kilometers, 25 kilometers, 20 kilometers. But if we don’t travel, we travel 15 kilometers a day. This is the good thing about it. That is, we both get money and we travel. This is the good thing about it. And the bad thing is that it is not the only thing to eat. If you want to eat something, throw it away. If you don’t have anything to eat at home, throw it away. Bicycles. We found more than 100 bicycles in River Scheldt. If you don’t have anything to eat, throw it away. Why? Motorcycles. Ice cream. Bicycles. Car wash machines. Water. I mean, things that work at home, they throw it away. And it’s a lot of things. People do a lot of things. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? And this makes me very sad and I can’t enjoy my work.
[i] Do you sometimes participate in social activities? Like going out, group activities, etc.?
[r] Yes, I always enjoy getting to know new people. I am very interested in different cultures. I want to get to know other people, to meet new people, to talk to them, and to get to know myself. Wherever I go, I have friends. When my family wasn’t here, I didn’t have much time, and I was able to go to many places. And now my life has changed. I have to spend time with them, and I have to be close to them. It’s not often that I go to many places. There are some days when I like theater. I go to many places. I’ve worked in theater myself. And wherever I go to see new things, I like to learn something new. I try to learn something new. And then… I try to learn other things. And when it comes to work, I like to work with any kind of person, wherever they work. I don’t feel bad about work. Where should I work, and where should I be working? I don’t like free money. I don’t like to sit at home and wait for the money to come. I don’t like that. I have to work by myself. I have to earn money by myself. And I have to spend everything I have. I don’t like it when other people don’t help me.
[i] What do you wish for the future of your family?
[r] For myself, I wish for something that I love. And I always wish from God that I have faith. I wish for something that is not war. I hope that everything will be fine in the future. I wish that everything will be fine. It’s very sad. And I don’t want to go to the BBC or other TV channels, but it’s not good enough for me. I want to see what’s going on in the country. I want to move closer to my fellow countrymen. But every day you see it, you don’t like it. So many people have been killed here and there, so many people have been bombed here and there. I mean, not only me, but many other people have been killed here and there. I have this in my heart and I pray that we can’t die here, that God will make us go away from this place. I would like to thank God for helping us to stop this work. And for my children, I want them to have a good life. Until I can help them or teach them, First and foremost, they are responsible for their own lives.
[i] Do you think [name] will return to Afghanistan if the situation gets better, if Afghanistan becomes prosperous and there is no war?
[r] Yes, why not? We want to work in Afghanistan and make a living there. But everything has changed since then. There are a lot of people there who have lost their lives. They have lost their jobs. If the situation gets better, I will return to Afghanistan in the morning.
[i] I think I have asked you a lot of questions. This is a very important question. As an immigrant, who has been away from home for ten years, do you recommend anyone to emigrate?
[r] Not at all. The most painful thing I have seen, I tell others not to come. Those who cannot live there anymore, It is a different story. But here, where we all come and live, we all have no problems. Most people have problems that they cannot live there. Or their lives are in danger. But there are people who come for other things. I tell those people that their lives are in danger. Most people think that Europe is a place where they can get money from the Amazon, and they can put it in their pockets. That is not the case. After ten years, I still have debts. So this is the reality and it is up to them to decide. If someone accepts it or not, it is my job. There are people who have found money here. But personally, I have received a lot of things.
[i] Like what?
[r] Like a peaceful life in Afghanistan. I had everything.
[i] Before the war?
[r] Before the war. When I was there, the war was 40 years old. That was before the war. Before the war. Before the war, I had a lot of things. And after that, I am still here. I am going to zero. I am down from zero. Until I build myself, I will spend my life. After that, what will I do? What will I do with the world? Well, life here is very different from there. Here, your whole life is online. It is computerized. And there, there is a normal life. If someone accepts it, life is very different from there. You don’t know about other electricity. You don’t know about home rent. You don’t know about many things. You only know about what you find in the land, in what you are working on. You take it and eat it. Here, work and in the end of the month, you have to give it all back. You have to throw it away. It has become electricity. It has become school. There are many, many things. And there, It is very nice to have a candle and a lamp in your life and spend two months with a candle in your life.
[i] It is a simple life.
[r] Yes, it is a simple life.
[i] Before you came to Europe, what did you expect from Europeans? For example, you said Europeans are good and bad. Everything is very good in Europe. What did you expect from Europeans?
[r] We have a saying in Pashto called Zarb-e Masal. It says, that some things are only fun from far away. When you actually experience them, they’re not so much fun anymore.
[i] Far away.
[r] Far away.
[r] Yes. People say that far away is very nice. But if you go closer, there is nothing like that. Some people say that life goes on and on and on. To a certain extent. Others do the same thing. Those who make jokes. They take advantage of a place. And they do a lot of things that they don’t dare to do. When you go there, the month is the beginning. You plan to study. You write down in what conditions it should be. At what time it should be. That you have a month. That you have something. That’s it. Most of the time when I come, I am like that. That no one has a problem. No one has a problem. When I come, I eat here on the ground. And the people who tell us, there are no such things. And I too, at that time, I was not without these things. That there is something else there. Only at that time, I wanted there to be a place where I could eat and drink. Where there was no sorrow. Where there was no pain. And now that I am here, I hear more from there. That is, when I was there, I did not hear the sound of the drums. I hear more from here. I hear more from here. When something happened, I knew it by hand. Something exploded in my hand. And so many people died. And there, that is how many people do not imagine things. And your pain increases. One, it is removed from your country. It is removed from your country and people. And another, every day there is an explosion, a suicide, and killing. And it makes you painful. It makes you painful.
[i] Are you still in touch with your family, with your brothers and sisters in Afghanistan?
[r] Yes.
[i] Do you still talk to them?
[r] Yes, yes.
[i] And do you still return to Afghanistan to see your family?
[r] I do not have much time to go to my city. In my province.
[i] For security reasons?
[r] Yes, in my region.
[i] Can’t you see each other anywhere else?
[r] In my region, it has been about 15 years since I left. I remember very, very well that I worked with my father there. I really want to see those places again. And the trees that we saw, I always wanted to see them, to see them grow and to see them dry. I have walked with my father to see the places, but unfortunately now, everything has changed. We can still live in a different city, Thank you very much for the conversation. Thank you for explaining your stories and experiences. If you want to say anything else, feel free to say it.
[r] There are many stories, but no one hears them. This is what I want to say. To everyone who hears me or knows my language, I would like to tell them that life is here, but don’t waste your time here. Go and do your job well. Don’t waste your time here. Go and learn something new. It’s good for the future. Don’t think that you’re a doctor or an engineer. You and I don’t have to think like that. Do normal things. I don’t know how to paint. I think it’s good for me to learn how to paint flowers at home. I love painting. If my house is ruined, This is important. It is not important whether you work in that field or not. The first thing that comes to your mind is the place where you want to go. After that, your life changes. Today you are here, tomorrow you are somewhere else, you are here, you are somewhere else, and with your life you have something that will take you to another place. It will not take you from your home, it will take you from your home. This is important to me. And the other thing is your life. Every person, no matter how they move forward, how they do things, this is a kind of brotherhood that tries to learn something. It is not important which language it is or which thing it is. The thing that your heart wants, that is your work. You have to reach it in the right way. For every person, I want a good, happy, and peaceful life. Personally, I love every person that I can take with me and learn something from them. I love all people and will always have them. I love you very much.
[i] Thank you.
[r] Thank you very much.