SU_A_03

[i] Ok, we have started. Hi, [name]
[r] Hi, [name]
[i] Can you introduce yourself?
[r] Yes, I am [name]. I am from Iraq. I am 24 years old. And I am actor. I have a big family. I have six brothers and two sisters. And we live together in the same house in Iraq. And I live in the middle of Iraq.
[i] Which city?
[r] Al-Qadisiyah, or Al-Diwaniyah. And I studied Arts and Crafts. I studied Arts and Crafts with this school of theater in Iraq. I started in 2010 until 2015. And then I came to Belgium because I had a problem. I will tell you what kind of problem I had. Actually, I did a lot of performances there. But my performance was a little weird in my country. Because I spoke about my God, about the people. Why the people died. Because I said that God helped the people, right? But at that moment I saw a lot of people in Iraq died. But they didn’t do anything. And after this performance, I said to the public. Why God does this? Exactly for the people of Iraq. Why? We don’t do anything. We are looking for a good life. Someone was thinking, I don’t believe. But actually I believed in my God.
[i] Did you believe in your God?
[r] Yes, I did. But now it was a little difficult for me to tell you. Then I said to him, I believe in my God. But you are doing a little weird. Why are you saying this to me? This is just about me and my God. Then he was thinking, no, I am not good. I have to die. Or […].
[i] Can I ask you about your childhood? Can you tell me something about your youth? When you were young, how was it to grow up in your city, Iraq?
[r] Yes, that’s good actually. When Saddam Hussein was president of Iraq, he had a good life for us. When I was a child, I didn’t understand what life meant. But my father was telling us that Iraq was a beautiful country. He didn’t have a lot of money. But in the government, he had a good passport. He had a good school. Everything was good. I was born in 1993. I started school in 1999, I think.
[i] You were 6 years old.
[r] Yeah. The first year I started school, my teacher always told us to love Saddam Hussein. When I was a child, I understood that I love Saddam Hussein. I love all people. After three years, my teacher told me a lot about Saddam Hussein. Saddam Hussein was our head father, big father of us. But actually, I love Saddam Hussein. He had a really good life there. After six years, I started high school. The first year, my new teacher told me that if I made a mistake in my school, I would go to the army. I don’t know how to say that in Dutch.
[i] To the army?
[r] Yes, if I made a mistake in my school.
[i] If you didn’t score well in school?
[r] Yes. And after that, I said, no, I’m good. I love my school. And he always spoke in a negative way to us. Then I said, okay, why did he say that? I told my father. Actually, my father also worked in the army. And my father said, yes, dad, you have to listen to your teacher. But dad, he spoke in a negative way. And I had a lot of time to study. Maybe I will… Yes, I used to think I had to do acting. But my father said, no, you have to finish this school and then you have to come work with me. I mean, with Saddam Hussein. But I don’t understand that, actually.
[i] Did your father work in Saddam Hussein’s army?
[r] Yes, he worked there for 35 years.
[i] And what was his function?
[r] I don’t know exactly what he did. But he worked as a telephone operator for Saddam Hussein and other people. I don’t know. But he worked a lot in Baghdad. Do you understand?
[i] A high function.
[r] Yes. I said, yes, my father, he said, okay, I want you to work with me like your brothers. I said, okay, dad. But at that moment I made a mistake in my school. I spoke bad English.
[i] You had no good grades for English.
[r] And the teacher said I had to go to the soldier. But my father said, no, I just want this year. If he also makes a mistake, then he can start. My father told me that it was hard work. It was difficult. But I didn’t want that. Okay, then I studied well. Then I took my first diploma, the baccalaureate from Iraq. And then my father said, at this moment Saddam Hussein is gone and we have war. It was a really bad moment there. And everything is going down. And then my father said, you can choose what you want to do. If you want to become a doctor or an actor, you can choose. For me, my dream was to become an actor. I started with my school.
[i] And why did you want to become an actor?
[r] Because I have different things in my family. My father was in the army. My older brother was… The same work as my father. I don’t know exactly what he was doing. But he would do the palm. If he had a palm, he would do a technique or something like that.
[i] Dismantling.
[r] Yes, this. And my other brother, he was a student. Half a doctor at this school or university.
[i] Half?
[r] Help doctor.
[i] Help doctor.
[r] Yes. And then he went to the army. But now he is a great captain. In the army in Iraq. And another, he is a teacher of sports. Teacher of sports. And another, he is still a student. And another, also a student. But my little brother, he is a student doctor in Egypt.
[i] How old are your brothers?
[r] The oldest, I think 7 years or 8 years.
[i] Older?
[r] Older.
[i] Than you?
[r] Yes, and then 6 years. Another 5 years. And also, I have sisters older than me. Then another brother. Then me. And two more. But…
[i] You are with 9?
[r] Yes. Nine. Yes.
[i] Two sisters and 7 boys.
[r] Yes. That’s it. Yes, I have seen my family. Because in the past, I have told my younger brother. What do you want when you grow up? When you have a good school? He says, I want to be a doctor. And another, he wants to be a doctor. I also want to be a doctor. And I have different in my family. I want to be a teacher. And another, a great captain. And another, with police. And for me, my dream is to be an actor. Because I have a good family. Different work, different things. Do you understand what I mean? I started with my school. It was the first year.
[i] Can I ask you something? Wait, I want to ask you something. Where did you live when you were a child? In Diwaniyah?
[r] Yes, in Diwaniyah. In the same house. And what kind of house did you live in? In the past, when Saddam Hussein was here, there was no work. Because the people from Egypt came to us to look for work. They broke the house. How to say?
[i] I don’t understand it very well. What do you want to say? Tell it in English.
[r] Before a long time, when Saddam Hussein was, we could not work. Because Saddam Hussein, he thinks we are rich men. He said to people from Egypt, if you want work, you can’t come to work here in Iraq. The people from Egypt make the house for my family. But we have really big family, like villa. Maybe we can say villa. Because really big family.
[i] A village?
[r] Yes, villa. Not village.
[i] What do you mean by villa?
[r] Like big house.
[i] Ah, villa.
[r] Yes. Nine rooms. So it’s really big. Yes. So we live there.
[i] In the center of Al-Diwaniyah?
[r] In the center of Al-Diwaniyah. Yes. Do you speak Dutch or English?
[i] What do you prefer? If you are more comfortable with speaking English.
[r] I think Dutch is a bit difficult. We can speak English.
[i] And how did your parents raise you? How did your parents raise you? Were they strict? Or were they…
[r] No, I don’t understand that.
[i] How did your parents raise you? How were your father and your mother to you?
[r] I don’t know, but I will explain the story for my family, my mother and my father.
[i] Okay.
[r] My father was working… My father is Shi’i and my mother is Sunni. Okay? My mother is from Babylon city and my father is from Al-Diwaniyah. My father worked in Baghdad but my mother worked in Babylon. One time he went to visit this city and he saw my mother and he loved her and they made love with each other.
[i] And what was the profession of your mother? What did your mother do? Because your father was in the army.
[r] Yes, my mother worked… how can I say… in an office. Like… how can I say… I don’t know the name of the work she did. She worked… I don’t know, but she had…
[i] Was it like a secretary?
[r] No, no, no, no. She had an office. And if you want a house to pay or… I don’t know.
[i] Or to sell?
[r] Yes. To sell, a real estate agent?
[r] Yes, that is. Yes. And then, yeah… After one year they loved each other and then married.
[i] And you know which year it was?
[r] I think they were 1950. I think so. I’m not sure.
[i] 19?
[r] Yeah, 50.
[i] 50?
[r] Yeah, of 60. Yeah, between these 10 years. 5 to 6.
[i] How old are your parents now?
[r] My mother now, she is 63. But my father, he was… Before 10 years he is dead. I think he like… I don’t know for my father actually. But he… I think he is 64 right now.
[i] Sorry?
[r] 46.
[i] Your father 46?
[r] Yeah.
[i] He was born in 46?
[r] Yeah, I think so. I’m not sure about it because I don’t remember good.
[i] Ok, but they fell in love?
[r] Yeah, and then they married. And then my father he say we have to live with family because my father also he have really big family. He have 3 brothers and 6 sisters. And they must live together in the same house. And my uncle he have 7 children. And another uncle he have also 7. And my aunt she have 2. So really we have crazy family. Like we are 530 people in the same house. It was really big.
[i] You lived with 35 people in the same house?
[r] Not me, my father. And then my father he say really we have crazy family. It’s really big, it’s not normal. And then he say I’m gonna help you help his brother to make newer house and then we’ll live. And he help them and then have newer house and then live without the family house. And then my grandfather and my grandmother they also died. So just my father he live there in this house. And he say ok now we start to make children after 3 or 5 years I think. And then start. [names of the siblings] And then we have really wonderful life when my father he was in the life. We have good car, we have good house, we have good money and we have good life there. And all my brothers had… everyone he have school and he finish and then had diploma.
[i] And how did your father died?
[r] Actually he was sick. Because he had really hard work with army. And then he… yeah. With the war with America we have really bad weather. Like from bomb, from everything is really bad. And then he have problem with…
[i] Kidney?
[r] Yeah. And then just he stay 3 years after this. When he sick after 3 years. He every week change the blood. And then the doctor he say he have chance to stay 3 years.
[i] But you were still 12, 13 years?
[r] No, he died actually 2009. 10 years ago. Yeah. 9 or 10 years ago.
[i] Ah, you were 16 then.
[r] Yes.
[i] And with how many people did you live in the house? Only your family or also your uncle and…
[r] No, no, no. I told you he make house to them. Everyone he give him house. But after that we live just… we are in the house. Like this just family for Salumi. Yes, just this. And my brother, my bigger brother he married. But it’s not possible to live with us because we are big family and he have 2 children. And then my father he say you have to move. And then actually my father he give him cadeau. How can I say English cadeau? I don’t know.
[i] A present?
[r] Yeah. He give him house behind our house. And he live there now. Yeah.
[i] And were you raised in religious way?
[r] Me or my family.
[i] Your family? Was your father… were you religious?
[r] I’m not sure about it with myself actually. But my family, yeah. They’re religious. Yeah. Sometimes I believe them, sometimes no. Because I see… yeah.
[i] And had you a strong bond? Were you strongly connected with your family?
[r] Do you mean now or before?
[i] Well, when you were…
[r] Actually before I start with this school for theater I was really good. I have good connection with them because I was child. When I start with this school I see more about this life. I read a lot of books about the life. So I have difficult question about God. About something like, what mean that? Why you make this? My father, he know everything. And he know this difficult question. And then he start to make… Okay, [name], don’t ask that. We don’t know how we can give you answer. So you just keep it away.
[i] You were asking questions about God or about religion.
[r] Yes, and then he still think I don’t believe.
[i] Can you give an example of a question that he ask?
[r] Like, one question, simple question. I ask him, who father for my God? Nobody he have answer. From this moment he still think I don’t believe. But it’s normal, everybody he ask this question. But the situation for Iraq and this moment he was difficult. So he just say, okay, you have to focus. How you can say? What you say? I say, okay, Baba, it’s just a question. He still with himself think I don’t believe. [name] gone crazy. We have to focus. If he ask something, we cannot give him answer. But with bad communication. I see this difficult for me. I was like 18. And had you the same? No, no, 18, I was 12. I start to ask about it.
[i] And had you the same conversations with your mother too?
[r] No, no. He have good communication with my mother.
[i] No, but I mean you and your mother. Did you have the same?
[r] No, of course she love me. She understand what I say. She have good communication with me. But I mean just my father in this moment. Because my father was really strong. Nobody he say, no. Nobody he say, I don’t want to do it. No, you have to do it, yes. And then my father told my brothers what happened with me. Why I ask it. My brothers, big brother he say, just please keep it out. Don’t think about it. We won’t enjoy. We have good life. Ok, I have nothing. Just ask it, it’s normal. And then really in this moment I have a lot of problem with my family about it. It’s not possible to live alone. Really it’s not possible. We have different culture and different situation. Really no, not possible.
[i] To live alone.
[r] You have to live alone when you gonna be married. The situation for my Iraq, my country. So, I have to listen to my father. Because I have no choose what I have to do. If I ask him one more time and he gonna be nervous or you know. I say ok. But I still think with myself. Why I ask my father and he say like that. Something wrong here. With myself I still think a lot about this. Why, why, why, why, why. I take first book to read Camus.
[i] Camus? Albert Camus.
[r] Yeah. Make me crazy. I have more question to my father.
[i] Which book did you read?
[r] Really I have not good memory about the name. About theater. But I don’t know. I don’t know the name actually. It was long time. I ask my father three question. Albert Camus he ask it. My father gonna be crazy with me. He have to keep the book out. This shit book. It’s not good. You have nothing about the life. Just wait. You have time. He give me power to search about this. Because my father I know him is really smart. And he have good memory. He read a lot of books. I go behind him. When he go to work. I go to the book for him. I read. Oh, wow, okay. I have this answer for this question. For God example.
[i] I didn’t understand well.
[r] I mean, when he go to work. I have time to look for the book he was read before. When we do example. I have one answer for one my question. Like, who is father for my God? Them says, nobody he know it. So just keep quiet. Don’t ask anymore.
[i] And it was a book from your father or it was your book?
[r] Yeah, my father’s. And explain why you don’t have to ask it. Explain everything. And then I have… Yeah, I’m scared. Maybe if I ask my father. If I told him I read the book. He gonna be mad or he sad.
[i] But it was a book from your father or your father wrote the book?
[r] No, he read the book. He not writing. Yeah. And then I told him. Baba, I have to start with theater school. He know everything about theater school actually.
[i] How? Why?
[r] Because he was smart. He search about everything. If he have time, okay. The book for theater, I’m gonna read it. This book for Allah, I’m gonna read it. You know? Yes. He say, okay, but be careful. What? But be careful. Actually for my school, when I finish, I’m gonna take diploma to… I gonna be teacher for children.
[i] Theater?
[r] Yes. Teacher? Yeah. I start one year, he gonna adult. So, if I ask somebody about the question, nobody will give me answer. And we have bad situation this moment. So, I just, I’m gonna start with the school. I have question, I have to look about the answer for this question. But it’s not possible to make one day or two day. I have to read a lot of books. I’m gonna take the answer to give myself. I start to read book. Every book give me another way to think another thing. You know?
[i] Which books did you read?
[r] We have a lot of people, Iraqis, writing them, like, about God, about theater, about life, about everything. I have no idea which book I have to read. So, I just see this book, I’m gonna read it. I want to know what mean this, you know? After two years…
[i] And you were 16, 17 years old?
[r] No, I start in school, theater school, this moment.
[i] How old were you then?
[r] I start 2010, in theater school. Was one year ago, my father, he died. After my father one year, he died 2019. I start 2010.
[i] You were 17 years old then?
[r] Yes, something like that, yes. Exactly. And then, okay, I have all the questions, nobody give me answer. I see bad situation, I see a lot of people every day, dot. Like, well, if we hear in news today is 200 person, dot. Okay, we are happy, not too much. Yes, really. Really, it was like this.
[i] And were sometimes people you know that were killed or people close to you?
[r] A lot of. Now, I don’t have friend is there. All my friend is dot. Maybe he go to school and he have bomb in street. Or he walking and he don’t know from where the shot come inside. Or maybe he talk about something wrong with the government and he don’t know who kill him. Like this. So, I have more idea because I read the books and I start with theater. I know my teacher in theater, he say, save this theater, make you beautiful, wonderful life. And you gonna see the people different. Not like him to look to you, you are bad, but you look to them, you are flower, you are wonderful, you are wow, I like you. This inside, but he look you are bad, you are blah.
[i] What was the name of your teacher?
[r] Rahim Majid. I love him, but he also dot.
[i] How come?
[r] He was sick. We had really hard work together. One week, he have pain, he go to doctor. The doctor say, you have nothing, just you have to be rest. He rest one day and he dot. Nobody he know why, what happen, nobody. We just hear the person, he dot. Why? Nobody he know. Okay. I start to three months really sad about him. Because he really make me think or look to life is different. All time he talk with us, okay Baba, look this life, we have bad situation, but if we start work with ourself, we gonna change this. Because this people cannot think, because war, bad situation, sick, crazy, dot, no money, no eat, no think good, no school, no… We have to change this. How we can change? You have to believe in yourself, you have to think in yourself, everything is beautiful. Don’t think that short, it’s not short. Maybe he will send you kiss or flower. He just he want make us to think what he mean, you know. It’s really good way. And then I start to play theater. After three years, I okay, I have good idea, I have too much information about theater. I have to start one time. I go on theater, I was really afraid. I see a lot of people stay there.
[i] Which theater did you perform?
[r] How to name this? Theater from my city, like Theater Diwanya, Theater Al-Qadisiyah. Yeah, this name.
[i] And there was many people.
[r] One thousand, double. Really one thousand. Because we have festival. Actors from Baghdad, from Lebanon, from Beirut. Yeah, from Algeria, from Tunis. Really a lot of people, a lot of actors. Festival, big festival.
[i] That was 2010?
[r] No, 2013. Yeah. And I think in May? No, 2013 in March. Yeah. I had one fault. Something wrong in the theater. Because I was talk about with my text. And somebody he said, I know him, I know him. He know me in street or I don’t know where. I just look to him, I lost all my focus. I forget my text. I just look to him. Okay, what I have to do? Just I said, oh, I know him too, thank you. He is also actor, but he is not. I forget my text. I’m going to say this scene, because my friend is going to be also afraid. If they are going to be afraid, also forget the text. When I say, I know you, you are my friend. You are also actor, you can play here.
[i] Did you know him?
[r] Never.
[i] But I have to say that, because another actor, if I stop, he will also stop.
[r] When I say that, my friend, he can’t compare it. Another teacher, he says, if you are actor, you are really good. If I do that, and somebody asks me in the public, I’m going to forget. I’m going to lose my project. So, you are good. He gives me power to work another project. I work.
[i] But why did the guy say… Hey, I know you
[r] he had no idea. Why he come to…
[i] And that was your first performance? First time.
[i] And were you alone on stage, or were you performing with a group?
[r] No, with a group, but this moment, I have job, I’m first, I have go inside for the stage, and I talk with my text.
[i] And what was the story of your performance?
[r] Sindbad, do you know Sindbad?
[i] Sindbad?
[r] Yeah, Sindbad.
[i] You tell.
[r] Yeah, it’s a big story, I think everyone knows it. And we explain who is Sindbad, why he come to Baghdad, what he will do, like this. Yeah, and then, after the first telling, but I have good news for this moment, because all the actors, all the people, oh, what are you doing? Nobody he know I have fault, I have something wrong in the stage. Nobody he know, really, just my director and actor, just. And other people, nobody he know it. So, then say, you are good. Then give me power to make another project, another text. I make this text with myself, because, you know, I was like, yo, I like to play theater, but I have no idea how can I make the text, what I have to say. You are three years, it’s not enough. I make the text to say, we cannot be joke with God to help us. This was situation for theater, actually, in Iraq, because we have war. So, if you have war, it’s not easy to talk about love or about life. Of course, you cannot talk about war, yes? I say, okay, we have to love God and we have to love each other.
[i] We have to love each other, yes.
[r] Yeah, but the public, what I say? Nobody listen to me, then still talk with each other, because, you know, we have war, we have bad situation and he talk about love, about this bad life. He is crazy. I lost my power. Really, I was…
[i] That was your second project, you did about love.
[r] Yes.
[i] And people didn’t understand.
[r] No, no, nobody understand what I mean. This was, wow, I lost, really, I lost everything. So, I have to make new project with good text, with good work, but with myself, it’s not possible, it’s really difficult. So, my teacher, he says, if we have festival in Baghdad, 2014, in May, I have five month, I have to choose text, good work, good actor, but I cannot. Because if I tell my friend, my friend is also afraid to talk, it’s difficult to think like what I think. My friend is afraid about family, maybe if he talk about situation, maybe somebody can make problem. I say to my teacher, he is here, I have photo for him, actually. Ah, yeah, show him. Yeah, I will show you. I told him, it’s not possible to do that, you can’t make it, I’m gonna work with you. He say, alright, I’m gonna do it. He make that text with himself.
[i] Was it the teacher that you were talking with? What was his name again?
[r] Salah. No, Rahimi. Rahimi. But Salah. I have photo for Salah. I hope I will find it. Yeah. Salah, he say, we gonna work this first time. But I’m sure we gonna take the first step of the festival. This Salah.
[i] Maybe show it to the camera.
[r] Yeah, this person.
[i] With the nice suit.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Show it again. And these are all your… Students?
[r] Yeah. This is my teacher. And this is my teacher. This is my teacher. And this, and this, and this.
[i] And where are you?
[r] I’m here.
[i] With the red wig.
[r] Yes.
[i] And who is the person, the older person with the beard?
[r] This Baba Van Salah. But he also big actor in Iraq. Everybody he know him. Abdel Sattar Al-Rubaiy and Salah Al-Rubaiy. Saadi Hidabi also director and writing. He’s really amazing person. He make series to a lot of… Yeah. Yes. Saadi Hidabi really big actor. And he writing a lot of series to Beirut TV, to Iraqis TV, to I think Qatar TV. He really big. And then this my friend he also writing. So this my group when I had the first telling. After this first telling when I do it with Salah. He Salah just to say to the government, not about God, not about everything. We have good life in this moment. Not good and not bad. It’s like we cannot say good.
[i] But Salah he asked you to write a performance, right?
[r] No, no, just to make. But it’s difficult for me. He also ask for the group. And then we talk with each other what we have to do. Salah he say if we talk about God, we gonna be that. If we talk about government, we gonna be lost the job. So we have to make something good. Like what? We have big theater in Iraq. It’s Rashid theater from Baghdad. When the America come to Iraq it’s really boom. But it’s like, how can I say, like Tony Hall house. But more than Tony Hall house. You know, it’s really big. So he say we gonna make the show about the theater. How we can make it? We gonna take the something big like… How can I… I don’t know the name actually. Like this. This stock.
[i] Show it to the camera.
[r] The camera, I don’t know if it’s possible to see it. Yeah, and then we have to be inside the things. And then when start the performance, we gonna be both. And just play the video. Because we need to say, okay, we have to start to make the theater like before. But who can make that? Nobody, just the government. Because government have a lot of money.
[i] But was the theater bombed?
[r] Yes.
[i] It didn’t exist anymore.
[r] Yes, and we talk about this theater. Was really good, was wonderful.
[i] But where did you perform?
[r] In Baghdad.
[i] In another place, but it looked like… Or you…
[r] Kunst Humaniora Like Kunst Humaniora from Baghdad. School for theater.
[i] And you made it like it was the big theater that was bombed.
[r] Yes, but we make this small things. Mean, okay, this theater from Rashid. And then say, wow, really wow, one hour and a half, amazing. Nobody he talk, nobody he like… I’m actor and I hear praise for the people. Really was amazing. And we have big people from government stay there to look for us. And we have more active power. And we have really wonderful show. And then…
[i] What was the name of the show?
[r] I know in Netherlands, but English is not possible. Born in.
[i] Born in.
[r] In Arab is Hadath Afi. It’s like bomb of… I don’t know. And the government say, wow, it’s really amazing for selling. You are good, you are… Not for me, just all for the group. Was really wonderful show. After the show, I have problem. Because before I talk about God. And now I talk about the government to make the theater. And the theater is not possible to make. And I talk about that in the stage. So, with channel, with camera, with people. They still think about when the government will make the theater. And for me, I go to my city. They say, ok, safe. You had a perfect, wonderful show. So, you have to still finish this year. We gonna start with 2015. Everything is ok, but I have problem. I never, nobody know what problem I have. I told my brother. He say, safe, I’m gonna help you. Because he captain and he have security. And have police to save him. And we have camera. We have everything in my house. I’m safe. I still with my brother. Nobody can talk with me. But you had…
[i] People were contacting you after you made that show?
[r] Yes.
[i] And what were they telling you?
[r] They say, you are not good person. Sometime you talk about God. Sometime you talk about government. But what you do? If you do something to this country, so you can talk what you want. I say, everyday I give my country, my love, my heart, my work.
[i] Can you tell? Because here you told me that you were talking about the government.
[r] Yes.
[i] But you were also talking about God. But that was in another performance?
[r] That was 2013. I talk about God. I told you. But this for government. When I talk about God… Was it when the guy was pointing you out? Yes.
[i] Then you were talking about God.
[r] I have to explain this also.
[i] Yes, yes, please.
[r] Yes, when I talk, I was really my first thing. After Sindbad, I have to talk. Sindbad, he come to make love, to make life, to give you good life. But he go Sindbad, he not stay in Baghdad. And I complete after Sindbad. Ok, we have God. God, he gonna help us. But he never look to Iraq. Ok, poor guy. Like here. But he cannot look what happened here.
[i] It was in the same performance?
[r] And then, I go to my family like every day. I finish school. I go to my house to see my family. To sleep.
[i] It was in Al Diwaniyah?
[r] He come to me after the show. Be careful.
[i] Who?
[r] The person.
[i] You know who it was?
[r] Never. I was think maybe he say because I had something wrong in theater. Or maybe he ask her. Or maybe he from another city. Maybe he say be careful. To give me energy. To think how can I make another show. That what I was think.
[i] How did the person look like?
[r] Just like, ok, be careful. Thanks. And then he go.
[i] It was after the show?
[r] Yes, in the street.
[i] In the street.
[r] Ok, I don’t have… Why I think about it? Ok, thanks. He told me I have to be careful. Another day I go to school. After three month… Oh, after… One day I go to school. Will be everything ok. After three month… I remember… The car was… Beacon, Toyota. With four person. Then say to my teacher… We look for safe. Do you have the name safe [name]?
[i] There was a car who came to your school? Yes, but after three month…
[i] After the performance?
[r] Yes. My teacher…
[i] Was it Salah?
[r] No, no, for another teacher. Salah was also teacher in my school. But not every time we work together. He say, yes, he is here. What happened? Then say, no, no, no, we are security for his brother. So we gonna help… Tell him about something. And brought it from family. Ok, my teacher… He know my brother, he captain. And he have security. So… I go to them. Then give me… Brief. Letter. Then say, give to your brother. We are not your… We gonna talk later. And then go. I open, no, open, no. Open, no, open, no. I call my brother, he say, ok, don’t open. I’m gonna come to you. We have like this. Nothing here, but with small shot. No? He say, ok, safe, you have to be careful. Next day my brother, he…
[i] Did you know who this person were?
[r] I still think, it’s not for me. This for my brother, because he work with government. With police.
[i] And how did you feel? When you received the letter?
[r] Of course I’m afraid. Because I have no idea what I have to do. My brother also, he… He still think for him. It’s not for me.
[i] Why would it be for your brother?
[r] Because my brother, he was work in… He is captain for… Police or… For, you know… With government.
[i] Can I also ask you… [name]… In… There was not a lot of problems with ISIS?
[r] No, no, no. We don’t have ISIS. But we have like mafia. No? Mafia for… How can I say? For beliefs.
[i] What do you mean for beliefs?
[r] Ok. I’m Shiri. I have big mafia. To help me. To say… To… How can I say? I’m Shiri, I have this people. If I say to you, you have to do it. You have to do it. If you say no, them will kill you. I don’t kill, but them will. I’m Sunni, also like this situation. You know?
[i] How can I ask you? Because you told me that your mother is Sunni?
[r] Yes.
[i] And your father is Shiri?
[r] Yes.
[i] Wasn’t that a problem?
[r] Before Saddam Hussein… I don’t know what means Shiri or Sunni. Nobody know it. But now… Ok, Shiri… Sunni… Like this. Yes. But now, I hope it’s gonna be like before. Like Saddam Hussein. Yeah. My brother, he said… What if we gonna take another house? Just for me and you. Because I have 3 months. And then I finish my school. I had diploma. I said, ok, no problem. I think my brother, in this moment… He know what happen. Why them send this to me, not to him? But my brother, every time… He gonna send me to school. Take me from school to house. For another house, another house. A lot of city change. And then… One day… Was… We have weekend. We still in the… Behind the house. We stay there with family. To do barbeque. And… Yeah, we still talk, talk, talk… At… 5 a.m. In morning. We hear bomb. Was Sunday. Saturday. Because Sunday we have school. In Iraq. I ask my brother, what happen? He say, I don’t know. He call the police. Police say, oh, something wrong there. What? We gonna explain to you. Ok. My friend, he call me. Oh, I have 1 hour to come to you with the car. And we have to go to University Babel. We have to go there. I say, I’m right here. I have everything here. Yeah. And then… At 6 or 5.14. He… He call me again. I say, I see something wrong here. I don’t know what is that. I say, ok, don’t touch it. And he also say, don’t open the door. Something wrong. Can you come from behind the house? I say, no, no, don’t touch it. I’m gonna look for this camera. I ask my brother. My friend tell me something like that. And my brother, he look the camera. He say, ok. He say to my family, go to my brother house. And hear something wrong. But he say, it’s bomb. I’m gonna show you the bomb. Yes. I say, ah, why? It’s really like crazy. And then he call the police. The police come to… To the house. And make this open. But then to tell my brother. This not for you. We know you had good work. And you are quiet. So, told your brother. Be careful and stop this school. I have just three month and I gonna finish it.
[i] Who told you?
[r] Somebody, he call my brother.
[i] When you were in the house?
[r] Yes. And another day they send message to my… Letter to my brother. Look, this bomb. This one. Look.
[i] And can you describe it? How? It’s like an old bomb, right?
[r] Yes. And what’s the white?
[r] The telephone. And this… I don’t know… But… And this C4.
[i] C4?
[r] Yes, this one.
[i] How big is it?
[r] I have no idea. This before they open. Was like this. And this also one. And this the time. 720. The time from… Government, I don’t know how come. Ok, but… Wait, so…
[i] Your friend? Who comes to your house? He sees that there is something? And then you see it from the camera? In your house?
[r] And my brother he call the police. The police come to open this. And then… And this also… Closed photo. This one, this one.
[i] How did you feel when…
[r] What do you think? We are happy. Of course we are afraid. And we are… I have small brothers cry. And my family, my sisters.
[i] Because you were living with your whole family there.
[r] Yes, yes. Really, it’s crazy. It’s like, wow. I don’t want to remember that anymore. Really, it’s super hard. Yeah, after this… My brother he say… Okay, we have to put a lot of security here. And then… Say if you have to move from here. From Iraq. I told him I have just three months. I have to finish my school. It’s not possible. To lose my school about these stupid people. These really stupid people.
[i] And did you know… Who?
[r] Yeah, after my brother he know. When I come to here, he know who make it. Yeah. I finish my school like crazy. Every day I go another city. Like one day I go to Babylon. To Baghdad. To Najaf. To Karbala. To Samoa. Close to my city. Because from there to come to school. Like I’m afraid to finish my class. And then I go back. I have to do my exam.
[i] With whom did you stay in all these cities?
[r] Yeah, my brother. He have a lot of friends there. And he… And in Babylon he give me… Like studio. But we don’t have studio. Apartment. Two time or four time. I don’t remember exactly. And in Najaf also. Basimawa. Friend. Small village in my city. Named Asidir. A lot of places.
[i] How many places? Like ten places?
[r] Three months. Every day. Or every five days. Or every week I change my place. Because I don’t want them to know where I live. But after this my family… Everything is ok. Nothing is happen there. Yeah, and then… I finish my school. I told my… Ok, now I’m finished school. Everything is right. And what I have to do? It’s not possible to stay in my city. If I go to Baghdad… It’s difficult. Because I’m Shia. And they are seeing me. So if I stay here… My problem is here. So what I have to do? They say… Ok, go to Turkey or Iran. For one month.
[i] I want to understand. So you couldn’t… You finished your degree. As an actor. And you couldn’t go to Baghdad. Because they are Sunni.
[r] Yes. Half Sunni and half Shia. But they are afraid. If I’m going to people from Shia and I say I’m Shia. I’m going from this city. They don’t believe. Because they are… A long time together. And one time they have fight. So they have conquered with each other. Close it. I don’t…
[i] Because you are half-half.
[r] Yes. So if I go to Sunni and I say my mother is Sunni and I’m Shia.
[i] And you wanted to go to Baghdad. Because as an actor.
[r] Yes. I never was thinking to go out of Iraq. Never. Because… My life, my friends, my school, my family. My brother is not… My brother said go to Turkey.
[i] But in Al Diwaniyah you couldn’t stay. Because of the problems with the people you had there.
[r] Yes. But I still love them. My family. I had a lot of time from my life there. Like… 20 years. 22 years there. It’s not possible to lose it about some stupid people.
[i] And are you going to tell me who made the bomb? Or later? You can tell it later if you want. But I’m curious.
[r] I told you.
[i] But you can tell it later if you want.
[r] Later is better. Because it’s difficult if I say it with the camera. Yes. My brother said go to Turkey. I go to Turkey. I see a lot of people come to Turkey. Go to Europe.
[i] And how did you go from… Al Diwaniyah to Turkey?
[r] I go from Al Diwaniyah to Baghdad with car. And then from Baghdad to Turkey with fly. And…
[i] How did you say goodbye to your family?
[r] Well… Actually, just my mother and my sister and my grandmother and my big brother. He knows that. Another family. Nobody knows.
[i] And did you have like… last meal? Or did you come together to say goodbye? Or how was it?
[r] It’s not possible to tell them. Because… My brother said it’s not possible to tell them. If you say maybe one brother he have no idea what he talk with friends or somebody else in city. And he know you are in this place. So it’s danger. It was just my mother and one sister and my grandmother and then my brother. Just four person from my family.
[i] And did you see them before you left?
[r] Yeah. Last night talk with them and morning I go.
[i] In the house of your family? Or where did you say goodbye?
[r] Yeah. Yes. And…
[i] Was it a quick decision? Or were you thinking like for weeks?
[r] I don’t think about it. Today I finished school my brother say tomorrow you have to go. Because it was really hard. It’s difficult. Yes.
[i] And what did you take? What was in your bag? In your luggage?
[r] Just my passport. Still with me here. Yes. My identity card. And money. Nothing. Yeah, really nothing. Yeah. And then from Turkey…
[i] And your brother, he drove you from…
[r] No, no, no. I take taxi. From Diwaniyah to Baghdad. It was at 8 this morning. Yes. At 8 in the morning, there was nobody in the city, then school, work. And this time nobody can go to Baghdad. Because when you go to Baghdad at 8 you don’t find your work or your appointment. If you want to go to Baghdad, you have to go at 3 or at 5 in the morning. Because you have to go at… the work starts at 7, the door is open. At 8 it’s closed. So nobody would think at 8 I’m gonna go to Baghdad. That was 2015. Well, yeah. That is… And then…
[i] How was it to say goodbye to your family?
[r] Really, I opened the door. I see my mother, my sister, my grandmother, just I say bye. I never was thinking to go out to Iraq. And I never see them anymore. It’s not possible. I just say bye. One month or one week I’m gonna come back. Just like this.
[i] And you were thinking it was just for a short time.
[r] Yes. But when I come to Turkey my brother he sent to me money. And he say safe, go out from Turkey. You have to look somewhere.
[i] And where were you staying in Turkey?
[r] First in Ankara. Ankara. And then Samsun city. And then Izmir. And then Marmaris city.
[i] How long did you stay in Turkey?
[r] Like 20 days. Something like that. 20 days. Yeah, 20 days.
[i] And with whom were you staying?
[r] With [name]. He come after me one week because actually he is my best friend. He was the guy on the… Show him again. [name]. He is [name]. He is. He is [name]. Yes. We come together. After me one week to Turkey.
[i] For the same…
[r] No, he don’t have problem like me. He had a problem but with family. Not with somebody else like my problem. Actually we don’t have to talk about him. He was love one girl from another family. Them don’t like him because he is actor. And he be nervous. Why them don’t like him because he actor. Blah, blah, blah. And then make shots with each other. So yeah. Yeah.
[i] So he came also Turkey?
[r] Yes. After one week. We was think if we stay in Turkey we gonna to America or something like that. I have no idea how but just one thing. And my brother he send me money and he say safe you have to go from Turkey. Where I have to go?
[i] And why did your brother tell?
[r] No, I have no idea. I cannot say why. You have to say yes. Because you have just one minute to say blah, blah, blah.
[i] He was your oldest brother who was always taking care of you?
[r] Yes. Yes. And then I have no choose because my passport is not possible to go somewhere like Europe or America with my passport. It’s really hard. And also I don’t like to go to Iran. It’s difficult for me if I go to Iran and then I come to Iraq. Because also there are a lot of people Iraqis in Iran. And he say you have to go somewhere nobody there. From my country. I don’t know why. I know I have problem but I don’t never think to make like this situation. You know? Okay, I hear somebody today I go to Greenland. To how?
[i] You met somebody in Turkey?
[r] I hear.
[i] Where was it?
[r] In Izmir.
[i] Izmir in the streets.
[r] I ask him how will you go? Is it possible if I go with my passport? No, no, no, no. Without passport you gonna go with boat from here to here. It’s difficult and you have to buy one thousand dollar. And we are just ten person and then we go.
[i] Was it also somebody from Iraq or was it a Turkish guy?
[r] No. He was Kurdish. But he talk around. Yes, he was Kurdish. I say okay. This is my money. This is my passport. But he was liar.
[i] And you were together with your friend? What was the name? [name]. You were together with [name]?
[r] Yes, but he was liar. I never know. I have no idea what will happen. He give me just the money, don’t worry.
[i] How much did you pay?
[r] One thousand euro.
[i] And you gave your passport?
[r] No, he just give me just your money. I’m gonna go to the hotel and then I come back. He go where? One hour, two hour, three hour? So, I have idea how I go to Cleveland. I don’t still think about my money because I don’t have time. I have to move. So, I’m gonna search. I go ask this person this one, this one, this one. Then give me one number telephone to call. How can the person make me the meeting to go to this concert? I say yes. We have meeting. I give him money and we have contract. So, tonight at one, we gonna move.
[i] At one in the night? You remember the date?
[r] Sunday. Sunday? Yeah, Sunday. 2015 in July. 15 July. I’m writing here my agenda. 2015 Yeah. 12 6 12, 6 15
[i] At one o’clock?
[r] Yeah.
[i] In the night?
[r] Yeah.
[i] And how much did you pay for the second time?
[r] He say you have to go this office, there is somebody else, you can ask him I need this person, this name, Abu Omar.
[i] [name]?
[r] Yeah. If he say yes I am, just give him money, he will give you card with number. If we gonna be safe to this to Greek land, just call the number, say yes, we are. If you don’t call, you can come back to give this number and you take your money.
[i] And how much did you pay?
[r] For this moment also 1000, because we have to go with this plastic boat, it’s not real boat, it’s like plastic. Yes. It’s like crazy.
[i] How big was the boat?
[r] 9 meter, 6 meter. But he say we are just 10 person. Ok. When I go there, I see 61 person. 61 instead of 10? Yes. With children, with girls, with women, with old people. I am sheep, what I have to do? It’s really… If you say I will not, them will kill you. Yes, it’s really big mafia. It’s that crazy mafia.
[i] And the guy you met for the second time, was it also Kurdish? Kurdish.
[r] Kurdish, yes.
[i] Most of Kurdish people, they…
[r] Yes. They are in that business. Yes. Ok. I go, go inside, we start go. No, first we go with car, and then we stop in something with nature, and then we walking 1 hour, and then we stay 3 hours, and then he say we gonna go to the port at 12 meter.
[i] 12 o’clock? Yes. Midday.
[i] Midday?
[r] Yes.
[i] Ok, but you first…
[r] At one night, we start go with the car, 1 hour or 2 hours, and then we stop.
[i] With how many people were you in the car?
[r] We have like box, camion, but really, I will never forget this. We have like this, open on the. .. On the roof. Yes. And I think 15 people, 5-0 like here, like this. Camion, small camion, not big camion, really small. And I remember 2 person they don’t have breath, and then we have. ..
[i] They faint.
[r] Yes, I think they faint or died. We don’t know. Then, 1 hour like stop, and he open the door, and he say, police, police, police, police, police, police. And we have no passport, we have we are not normal, we are I don’t know how I can say it.
[i] Illegal.
[r] Yes. So, if you hear police, you gonna be go. If you don’t go, you gonna be died, or you gonna with bodies. Like, this 15 person, like, all the camion, like, poof, like this. Everyone he go, but really was…
[i] He was breaking hard.
[r] And he open the door, and he say, police, police, police, go, go, go, go. I go, I see nobody in street, where I have to go is really crazy nature, like, I cannot see without light. You have to walk to hear the water, like you hear that, and you go to there. You don’t care about your children, or your. .. just with yourself.
[i] But was there police, or was there no police?
[r] No. He say that, because you want to hear record. How can I say? Yeah. And then I go to the water, I’m afraid, I’m tired.
[i] Was [name] with you?
[r] I lost [name], I lost everyone. One by one, them will come to me. Come, come, this place, come, come, and we are together here. Somebody he come with this boat, and he say, tomorrow at 12 we gonna go from here, stay here, don’t, I don’t want police to look to you, go behind this Ok, then he go, we go stay at 12, then come Ok, now we start, we gonna go to Greece. Sure? Yes. Ok, we gonna we go in the boat. How long? He say 3 hours. But it’s new war, it’s not true.
[i] Who told you 3 hours?
[r] The person, he will make.
[i] Who drove the boat?
[r] Yes.
[i] Was he also Kurdish?
[r] No, he was Turkish, not Kurdish, Turkish, but somebody with the group was translated to Arabic.
[i] Yeah, because he was speaking Turkish, and…
[r] I have no idea which language he will talk, he have. Yes, and then we start go, we are happy, really, but we are afraid. We see Greece, nobody here, nobody here, just we are go, first time I go in the boat or the water.
[i] And how many peoples?
[r] Like 50.
[i] And did you, you were with [name] again?
[r] Yes. I met him, them all, them come to this place. Yeah. 5 minutes, we see the boat from Greece, the boat from police, Turkey, they come to us, to take us, but with them for one week without telephone, without anything.
[i] So, there was a police from Turkey?
[r] Yes.
[i] And they came to your boat?
[r] Yes.
[i] And they brought you back to Turkey?
[r] Yes.
[i] And were you put in prison or where did you stay?
[r] Yes, prison.
[i] In Turkey, in Izmir?
[r] Izmir. Yeah, name gendarme, the name for the police. It’s not good, the police, gendarme.
[i] And how, what was your reaction when when the police…
[r] Okay, if we dodged in water or we go with them. Otherwise, we still think we are dodged. Okay. The fuck of this, we have to go.
[i] And also the children and the women?
[r] Everyone, everyone.
[i] And how was the prison? Were you all together?
[r] Oh, it was crazy. There was a lot of ISIS, and we stay with them. And if you say I’m Shia, they will kill you inside. If you talk Arabic, you gonna have problem. If you don’t talk with them, also you have problem. It was really hard. Like, it’s really hard. And then after one week, we go outside. We go back to this person, he say, sorry. I sent you like this because I have 12 posts go behind you. The police still with the post and another them go. Okay. What we will do now?
[i] And did you also have contact with your family?
[r] No. I lost my money. I lost my phone. When I go from the port to another port, to police, I just go with the water. But it’s okay. I can have contact with my family. This time, [name], he have money. He say, tonight, we gonna go again. But this, personally, this for me. I’m gonna give this cadeau for you.
[i] Present cadeau.
[r] Yeah. We start, we go, this place. He say just 20, but was really crazy. Was three port, every port 16. 6-0. He don’t think how many people he have to put. He just think about the money. We start to…
[i] Also, what time did you start? Night or during the day?
[r] We go from… In the port, at one night, we start go on the water. We gonna go to Greece. But it was really without light. Was something wrong inside. We hear it, and we like boom, like this. And we told the chauffeur, we have problem, you have to go back, because the plastic gonna be like this, gonna be… He say, no, no, no, don’t worry, don’t worry. 20 minutes, the port, we are in the sea. Look like this, water, water, water, water. The motor was… Yeah, and we have really two children, family from Iraq. Man, woman, two children. And then, two couple, and then, family from Syria, like this. And guys, I cannot swim. I have two person, I know them, in the port, from Iraq. Mohammed in Haidar, they are really good.
[i] And you knew them from back in Iraq?
[r] No, no, in the port. I asked Mohammed, he say, I have good, I can’t swim, so I’m gonna go inside to the port to make, I hope, all the motor work, then we gonna find something to help us somewhere, maybe we can see bodies or something like that. Everyone, he lost the telephone, everyone, he lost money, everything, we lost everything. We lost two guys from Syria, we lost the family with children.
[i] How come?
[r] Because the water like crazy, like this.
[i] And they fell out of the boat.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And they were gone.
[r] We lost. This time you have to save yourself.
[i] And the sea was wild.
[r] Yes. Haidar, he had laser, something, laser, do you know laser? And he do like this, and, oh, something, I see my laser is here, like something like big in the water, I don’t know what is that. Haidar, he said, we have to go there. And Haidar, he had something like this.
[i] A rope?
[r] Yeah, for the boat and we have stuff, big stuff in the sea.
[i] Stuff?
[r] Not stuff, I mean, like this thing. Like this. Out, I don’t know what is that. It’s really…
[i] It was in the sea?
[r] Yes.
[i] Wood?
[r] Yes.
[i] Was it wood?
[r] Yes. That is. We go both, everyone help each other, but we lost two guys from Syria and this family from Iraq. We don’t have light, just the lizard, but when we put the lizard, we see nothing again.
[i] And how big was the wood?
[r] Like 20 meters. Like this 20 and like this I think 20 also, but what is.
[i] .. And the boat was gone.
[r] Oh, it’s nothing. It’s gone. So, and it was at 5, we see the sun, we have small light, we see the big crazy boat in the sea. Real crazy. We do with the laser and Haider was stay like this and do the water like poof. The laser is gone. Oh. What do you have to do? It was the Buddhist from Turkey. Okay. It’s okay, we’re gonna go to Turkey, but then we’ll look for the two guys for this family. They will help us. And was the family have chance because there was something for the fish. But really big big for this boat. They put this here to caught to take the fish from this place, you know. Then was all the things stay here, but the guy with one guy is from Syria, but another one nobody he know where is. The Buddhist still search about him. They also find him somewhere far with the water. He don’t know where is he going. And then we go everyone.
[i] So the family from Iraq? They survived?
[r] Yes.
[i] Because they found something to catch fish?
[r] Yes.
[i] And the guy from Syria?
[r] With them, but when he gone he don’t know where, because he cannot see was, you know. We gonna back with the boys, but them just boat in the city and them say go out.
[i] Back to Izmir?
[r] Yes. We go to this person. He say that what I have. You don’t have chance with me. This your money, go. Okay. I pay telephone and I call my family. Them think I’m somewhere or something happen with me was this 10 days.
[i] Who did you call?
[r] I call my mother. I save her telephone. Talk with her. I was really… And then…
[i] What did your mother tell you?
[r] She was afraid, because she think I I think something wrong there when I go, because my brother told me go to from Turkey right now. I think somebody he know I’m in Turkey and she think I don’t. Somebody kill me. But when I call her, I say no, everything is okay, but just I lost my phone. I never told her what happen with me, because you know it was difficult to explain. And then… After that, I meet somebody I explain to him what happen. He say I’m gonna help you. We have to go to Marmaris. There somebody he have yacht. Send you from Marmaris to Finland. How much? I say 3000 euro. I will never before I never hear this for this money. What is euro? What is euro? I go to ask them say yes, this euro and this dollar you have to change this more than this. I change my money, I give him. When? Tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow. How much? He say you are just 80 person. 80? 80. Wow, good with yacht. 5 room. Sheik yacht. And he say if you don’t have place to sleep, you can sleep here.
[i] And [name] was also with you?
[r] Yes. I say wow, it’s wonderful. We gonna sleep. Wow, it’s really good. And then he say tomorrow, this one week we stay and then he say tomorrow we gonna go. But we have to go first with car like 4 hours or 3 hours and then he stop this point and then we walking and then we have small boat to bring to the yacht.
[i] And we were already with 80 people?
[r] We have good communication with this person. We know that how many people come. But it was not true. It was 150 person. It was really crazy. The chauffeur was from Colombia with his boys and one girl.
[i] Chauffeur from Colombia?
[r] Yeah. And then one? Two boys one girl.
[i] Also to ride the boat?
[r] Yeah. We start go really I see the car from Greece. It’s very close. One hour the sea like normal, it’s good. Two hours and then the sea like this, poof. We see the water come from both. Yeah, so it’s really crazy. I have nothing to do. I look like, okay. I have to go both because maybe if we have something wrong I’m gonna be. .. I was thinking just I won’t save myself. But when I go both I see small room children from Syria children from Iraq they play but it’s really hard. Five hours the chauffeur he said I have to stop here because somebody he call about the yacht. If we go there I will lost my yacht and I will lost my life. So what we have to do? We go back or we come back? If we go like this we need also two hours or three hours. He say no, no, no. Just one hour. And he see the children he say I will lost my yacht but I will never lost the children. Was really good person.
[i] Guy from Colombia.
[r] Yeah, it’s really was. That what he say actually. We go to when we go to the place from Greek land the police come to us to take him to take the yacht and to take the money for him. Was really hard. Like lot of money. And he then put inside like 20 years or 30 years I don’t know how long he will stay there. And he lost everything about the children. Because the children you know. And then I go in Greek land and to Macedonia and to Serbia.
[i] Can you explain a bit how you. ..
[r] Yes, I will explain. From Greek land when I go there we gonna wait police one week.
[i] Because the police they were waiting for you.
[r] Yes, one week and then we go to Athens. From Athens we take taxi to Macedonia but it’s not possible. But after week police said…
[i] And did you need to give your papers or anything?
[r] No, no, no.
[i] They just let you go.
[r] It was this time the Greece and I don’t have money anymore.
[i] And where did you arrive in Greece?
[r] I know where but the name is really difficult for small place in the water. I have no idea about the name. It’s really difficult. It’s really hard. And then we go to Athens. We take taxi to some place.
[i] And you were still with [name]?
[r] Yes.
[i] And did you also make other friends?
[r] Of course. You have to make another friends. Because it’s not possible to go with yourself. It’s hard. It’s danger, you know.
[i] Who did you meet with?
[r] The people are obviously have good situation about the social. I mean… I’m Iraqi. If I hear somebody from Iraq if I say hello, ok. And we are not same the place. Of course he gonna be my friend. Because we have good one language and we have same situation. So we gonna be friends. And then we take the taxi from Athens to this place close to Macedonia. And then we start walking from this place to Macedonia. And where did you…
[i] How did you get food?
[r] Well, it’s restaurant and hotel on the way. Everything is ok.
[i] You had the money to sleep.
[r] Yes, yes, yes. But was difficult in Macedonia because I think 3,000 or 4,000 people wait the train to come but it’s not coming. You have to take taxi or walking to Serbia.
[i] And you were also waiting for the train.
[r] I have chance. This night at 3 or at 4 I hear the horn for the train. I must leave close the station.
[i] Were you in hotel or in a tent or.
[r] .. Hotel. Right now I have money. Everything is ok with me. I have hotel. We gonna run to the train. We gonna with the train to Serbia. Not Serbia. It’s close to Serbia. And then we gonna walking to Serbia.
[i] You walked?
[r] Yes.
[i] How long were you walking?
[r] From Greece to Macedonia one day. From Macedonia to Serbia three days. But it’s really hard. It’s really hard. The army from Serbia like crazy.
[i] Army?
[r] Yes. It’s crazy really.
[i] Did you meet them?
[r] Yes.
[i] Can you tell something about that?
[r] What? It’s like them was. .. Well, them still say something not nice. And then…
[i] Like?
[r] Bad word. But we have say nothing because you know them have everything. They think that we are we will come to make problem with this people.
[i] And how many people were you all together?
[r] Really too much. Really too much. Like four or five thousand people was there. Yes. I think like this because it’s really. .. you see just people.
[i] You were walking like all together?
[r] Yes. You have to… we have to go with this group because if you go like two hundred or three hundred the police or the army gonna kill you. Yes. And then we go to Serbia with hard way, with crazy way. Nobody he make it. We go inside to Serbia. We take taxi somewhere there have like commissariat to give you paper.
[i] In Serbia?
[r] Yeah. For three day. But they also have pass and trying to make you to send you another place to go to Hungary. Yes.
[i] But in Serbia they registrated you?
[r] Yeah.
[i] And they gave you a visa for. ..
[r] No, no. Paper like this for three day. If the police got you after three day gonna make problem. But the police from Serbia is not good. They take money from people.
[i] Did you have to pay them sometimes?
[r] Yes. I pay all the way from Serbia. One thousand dollar I give the police from Serbia.
[i] And how? They came to you?
[r] Yeah. Give me money, you can go. You don’t give me money, you will stay here.
[i] So people who didn’t have money, the police took them.
[r] From Hungary I come with car to Austria, to Vienna.
[i] And how?
[r] Three thousand euro for one person.
[i] And how did you meet a person who could take you?
[r] They tell the city who will go to Germany, who will go to Vienna, who will go like this.
[i] It was in Hungary you met?
[r] No, close to Hungary. I was in Serbia. The place close to Hungary. I met somebody Kurdish. Yes. Kurdish and we are four. Every person we have to pay three thousand euro to Vienna. But he still have big group because. ..
[i] And [name]? He was your best?
[r] Of course, he is like all. And then we got to Vienna. We are still in Vienna one week. And then…
[i] Where did you stay in Vienna?
[r] In hotel.
[i] And how did you find the hotels where you could stay?
[r] Actually, we were on Facebook. The people say OK, this is a place if you want to sleep.
[i] Other refugees?
[r] Yes. Yes. But we don’t have telephone, like my telephone, like normal, like Nokia. But with this people and other people with us them help us really too much.
[i] Which people help you?
[r] From Syria, from Iraq.
[i] Other refugees?
[r] Yes, for this group. Yeah, I still in Vienna one week. And then I hear somebody say my language. I know him. When I talk with him, he was like from my city, like maybe, I don’t know. He say, I have car, I’m gonna help you.
[i] He was also refugee?
[r] He was here, he have nationality from one country, from Europe.
[i] What was his name?
[r] He say, I’m gonna help you, but it’s danger for me, it’s really difficult. So if you see police, you have to explain what happened, because I know you are from my country, from my city. Of course, I’m gonna help you, but if we see police, you have to talk there. Okay, thank you. And he bring us from Vienna to here, to Commissariat.
[i] Okay, and why did you chose to go to Belgium? Was it from the beginning your plan to come to Belgium?
[r] No, no, no, no. Never. Never. But I was I really have no choose what I have to do, because I hear in Germany was a lot of people there and I’m afraid if I come to here and the police or government from this country bring to me to Iraq. That’s what I was think. I was think Belgium is nobody from Arab is here because I never hear about Belgium before. When I come I see a lot of people from my country from. .. oh, okay.
[i] But the guy you met in Vienna he decided, okay, let’s go to Belgium.
[r] Yes. But he is not from Belgium. He know there Belgium is good country to make paper, because before long time he was in Europe like 20, 22 years ago he is here. Yes.
[i] And during your trip from Turkey to Belgium did you have contact with your family?
[r] Never. I have contact with my family when I got to the centre reception center
[i] Of which center?
[r] Reception center. One day second day I call my family. I saw them. I’m here. Everything is okay. Yes.
[i] And what was their reaction?
[r] Actually for me was super sad super hard, because I have no idea what will happen with me. Why I come to here? Which problem? Why? Why everything happened? Why this happened with me? Why? A lot of questions. Why? And I see the people I’m happy, I’m in Europe, I’m in Belgium. No, I’m not happy in Belgium or in Europe. Why? It’s not my country. It’s first time I was thinking like that. I love my country, my job, my school, my friends. It’s first time I leave like this from Iraq.
[i] And I just want to know also, how long were you all together on your way to. ..
[r] One month.
[i] From Greece?
[r] From Iraq to here.
[i] One month?
[r] Yes. And how… I leave from Iraq 4-6-2015 I’m here in Belgium 17-7-2015 I’m not sure. One month and a half? Yes.
[i] And can I ask you how much did it cost you all together?
[r] 12.000 dollars. For me. But another people were… I know somebody he come with 1000. Yeah.
[i] And most of the time you were with [name]? Or were you a bigger group of people who were…
[r] No, no, bigger group because… Well, before I cannot speak English [name] also so we have somebody who speak English. So he will save us, he will make everything to us. Of course we have group.
[i] And you were a group of close friends?
[r] No. No. No. And then… We lost them in… In Vienna. When I met that person.
[i] How many people? Because you came from Hungary? To Vienna? And in Vienna you lost?
[r] Four person we come from Hungary to Vienna. Because the system for the car you have just four person. Yeah. Another group have another car. When I come to Belgium for one moment I was really happy. And then I have still thing because I’m in Brussels. What I have to do was nationality from Belgium I think.
[i] And the guy in the car he dropped you off in Brussels?
[r] Yes. And then he go out. I go to the Commiserate then give me center. Where is this? To Antwerp Left bank Red Cross. Ok, thank you. But I have no idea what they talk because they talk English in France. I have map so I go to station. I ask somebody. He say here. Most of them send to Charleroi.
[i] How was it for you?
[r] I will explain to you. When I come I was really good person. I meet him from Belgium. I give him all my paper. I say don’t worry I’m gonna help you. But every halt, every stop for the train I ask him this Antwerp? He say no. He was live in behind the center. He help me to Halloween and then he go somewhere I don’t know. And then I see people from Syria there. I ask them. Yeah we are also live there. Come with us. I go to center. I meet one assistant who I forget the name from Africa.
[i] [name].
[r] He help me. He give me room. And the second day I call [name]. [name] say I am in Charleroi. But it’s Charleroi. I don’t know Charleroi. I was talk with [name] to make appointment to go to Commissariat.
[i] But how did you feel that [name] was in Charleroi?
[r] I feel bad but in the night I meet [name]. You know [name]. [name] is my friend when we was child. We student together. And then middle bar I go to theater and [name] he go somewhere else. And then [name] he go to Turkey 10 years or 9 years. I have no contact with [name]. So when I come here like Huh? It’s [name]? Yes. I am happy. I meet somebody from my city. My friend. So I call [name]. I explain to him what happen here. So [name] he say Ok. I see people from Iraq here and I am ok. Do you think if we have meeting and we have to talk with your assistant and with my assistant to make change for this? He say no no it’s ok. If you are ok I am ok. So yeah of course. And then I have paper after 6 or 5 months and [name] 1 year and half.
[i] But what was your first impression of Belgium when you arrived?
[r] I don’t know. Really I don’t know. Maybe I was happy or I am sad or I am tired. I have to cry or I have to laugh. I hear which language they talk. Which people, which culture. Who is the people, where I am. I am from Asia. I don’t know. I told you why why why.
[i] And how was the life for you in the Red Cross center?
[r] I have chance because I have Red Cross. Really. Because I hear I meet a lot of people here they say we are 10 persons in the room. I have one room, I have good food, I have good assistant there. Really I like them. I still go sometimes to say hello to them.
[i] And because then you were invited by the commissariat to tell your story. How was that?
[r] For first time, yes? Yeah, yeah.
[i] Tell me about the first time. Yeah, first time when you arrived. It was when you arrived.
[r] In commissariat or in the central?
[i] No, no. In commissariat How was it to tell your story there in commissariat?
[r] Yes, it’s good question. For me I have no idea what I have to talk. I was think if I come to them, when I put my finger, they will give me paper.
[i] If you put what?
[r] My finger like this, they will give me paper. That’s what I was think because I have no idea. Really. I told the person when he was talk with me he said, really? Explain to me. That’s first time I explained to him, he said, okay alright, so what? See you next time.
[i] You told your whole story.
[r] Yeah.
[i] How long did you talk to him?
[r] First time, three hours. And then, they gave me another interview five hours and half. That was really hard to explain everything what happened with me. And was somebody to translate, he is from Morocco and he don’t understand what I mean with my story. What I say. Every time say, what mean that? It was difficult. But then, after ten days, I have paper. After the situation, I’m happy.
[i] How did you feel? Can you describe?
[r] After the paper, I hate this language. Really. Because I have no idea how can I talk. What mean that?
[i] How did you feel when they told you you can stay here?
[r] I’m happy. Really, I’m happy in this moment. Really, it was perfect. And then, I start first course for Netherlands. I hear the king for the word, how can you say? I like it. Next course, I really like it. And then, I love it because I want to talk like this people. They have wonderful accent. Like, wow. Day by day, I really love this language. And now, I speak Netherlands, but not perfect. I still study. Yeah. Yeah. That is. Yeah. And because you arrived in 17th of July.
[i] And then, when did you get papers?
[r] 2016 in February, I think. I think in February or January. Because I have two time interview, one time change to next time.
[i] And then, after after you stayed in the asylum center, where did you go to?
[r] I met somebody really good somewhere. He sent me to concert academy for theater. And then, I still with them. I really had hard work with them. So, yeah, I have two projects. I have two projects. One in Poland, and one in University of Manchester. I have here well, yeah, well things done by concert. Walking in your shoes. Thank for life. Another project with other people. And also, that concert tour to Antwerp. And I did three or four months there. But actually, I found it hard for me. But I quit, because my Dutch is not enough.
[i] Did you like it to study there?
[r] Yes, I really like it. But for me, it’s hard. Because my Dutch was not enough to say if I want to ask or understand Danish with Snobby. After that, I stopped with this school. Back to concert. Also now, I am busy with new performance.
[i] What performance are you doing now?
[r] Love the World. It will start in June. Maybe two months. Not sure. At Oude Huis here in Groenplaats, I think.
[i] And what does KunstZ mean for you? What does it mean, KunstZ, for you?
[r] Actually, like my family. Like my house. It’s enough. Like my family. They are really good people. I have nothing to say, but just like my family. Sometimes I miss KunstZ, you know. If we have one time for one week, another time for this week, I miss them. I want to go there, just stay. I like to see [name] or [name] or somebody else there. Really, it’s good, nice. Good people, I love them.
[i] Besides KunstZ, are there other things you do right now? You study Dutch or you study Dutch?
[r] Yes, I finish two level and I start with next two level. Yesterday I start.
[i] And here in Belgium do you experience sometimes discrimination or racism?
[r] I don’t understand
[i] Yeah, that sometimes because you come from Iraq, that people are not that nice to you.
[r] Well, yeah. Yes. One time I was in Berchem Station, I met somebody an old man and he was talking with somebody from Senegal. He said, what are you doing here? You are black, you are blah blah blah. I really, like hurt me. I’m gonna talk with this person. My English not good, my Netherlands not good so I’m gonna ask you. He said, who is your father? If you don’t and you ask you, who is your father? Adam, yes? He said, yes. Okay, he is also son of Adam. Don’t care about the cloth. I don’t know, the man, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. And next time, that happened with me.
[i] What happened?
[r] I meet somebody and he say, why you are here? Like, do you know we don’t like Muslim people or Arabs people to come to here? I said, well, do you want to explain to you or you just want to talk like this? If you want to explain, you have to stay. I said, oh, I stay like this. I explained to him what happened, why I come to here, who I am, which country I have, why Iraq, why I lost my country. And then he still cry and he just say, I’m sorry. And then he cry, I just say, I’m sorry. I see a lot of people don’t think why I come to here. Okay, you have to know from where I come, why I come, who I am, what I think here. And then you can say, yes, I hope a lot of people hear that. Before you ask him why, just ask him who you. .. That’s what I want to say. I hope we live in that place.
[i] And who are your friends here?
[r] I have a lot of friends actually. Iraqis, Syria, African, European, Mexican, Cuba, America. Oh, nationality. Really, a lot of people. Okay. And we have good communication. We ask about each other in message or meeting. Or we go to party. Yeah, something like that.
[i] You also have a girlfriend here?
[r] Yes, from Belgium.
[i] Can you tell something about your girlfriend?
[r] Yeah. Actually, I’m super shy to talk about girls. I don’t know why, but I respect them. One day she asked me, I see you somewhere in Antwerp. I said, I think I see you. But I see her, but I don’t remember where. And she said, I see you in Center, or I see you in Zomerfabriek, because I was a lot of there. I said, maybe in Zomerfabriek. And then I said, thank you, nice to meet you. And then she sent me message to meet each other. We go party. It was with [name], I think. I said, it’s close to me. Okay, come on, we go to see each other. You know, it’s first meeting for me with different culture. It’s like, wow. It was nice meeting, but then we love each other, actually. She like me and I like her. And now, really, I love her. I have photo, this photo.
[i] You can show her if you want.
[r] Yes. This was, yeah. This. I love her. [name], I love you.
[i] How long are you together?
[r] Eight months. Yeah.
[i] Where is the photo taken?
[r] It’s here. It was cool. Okay.
[i] And now you live here. Do you like it here?
[r] Yeah, of course. I like it. I like Antwerp, actually.
[i] You like the neighbourhood?
[r] Yeah, really good people.
[i] And your apartment?
[r] Oh, I don’t have chance for the apartment. I changed three times, but I don’t find good apartment, but I hope next time I will move to Burger Hut. I hope I find good apartment. For the place is really good. No. If you want to relax, yes. If you want like crazy, also yes. But I search about apartment. I don’t like to live in studio like this. Yeah.
[i] You told me that you like Antwerp. Why do you like Antwerp?
[r] I don’t know. Sometime I go to another city like Louvre. When I go to Louvre, really I miss Antwerp and I want to go to Antwerp. Like my house. I don’t know. I don’t know. Most people here nice. Here a lot of people like situation for Arab. It’s not like if we go to Leuven. Not Leuven. Some city here at 8 nobody in city, but here still in morning, yes? I see that nice for me. Personally. Yeah.
[i] And do you still have contact with your family now?
[r] Well. Not a lot, but sometime, well. Every month one time. Because also still dangerous there. I cannot make problem again to them. But with my brother from Egypt, yes. Every week I ask him or say hello to family or my family tell him to say hello to me.
[i] And how is the contact with your mother now?
[r] It’s real difficult. Sometime my brother left, he call her and call me. We have three person with one call, you know? And how are you? What are you doing? Yeah, just like that.
[i] Because last time you also told me that you might see your mother this summer?
[r] Yeah, I hope so, but I was think to see her this summer, but still a problem right now with me. Because I waiting for my work, I have no idea when I start, when I can take my holiday. So I think it’s not possible to see her this year.
[i] Because you were telling me that you would see her in Iran, right?
[r] Yeah. That’s what I was think, because I was think I gonna start in April with Panos, but something wrong there. So I’m waiting for articles. If I’m gonna take articles, I’m gonna wait for my holiday. If I can take after one month or two months, yes, I’m gonna see her. But not possible, so I have to wait for next year. Otherwise I have no idea, or I have nothing to do.
[i] And do you think you get enough chances here in Belgium?
[r] Enough chance?
[i] Yeah, like for job or for. that Belgium gives you enough chance?
[r] No, but… I still… I have… I don’t have a lot of time, just two years and a half. So I have to wait. If I still like five years like this, I can say Belgium don’t give me chance. But right now no, it’s okay. Okay, fine.
[i] And you… you experienced a lot, because all the trips from. from Iraq to Belgium, how did it make you the person you are right now?
[r] Of course make me strong, make me think a lot. When I want to say something, I have to think what mean that. How can I say? Why I say that? Make me strong, make me more smart, make me think a lot. It’s not possible to… exactly to people from Arabis, we have different culture and we have different situation with families. It’s not possible to lost your family if you won’t live alone, close to your family, yes, but it’s not like I’m in Belgium, they’re in Iraq and I don’t have good communication with them. That make me strong. I still don’t care about the situation. I’m ok, they are ok. Make me new person. I think that.
[i] Is there a [name] from before you came to Europe and a [name] now or is it the same person?
[r] I think same but just more strong, more smart. I mean they are in Iraq because I don’t think about this small things like house, like life and future. I don’t… never think about. Maybe because I was child or I don’t know. But now I still think about my future, about my family, about myself also.
[i] Do you also often think again of the trip you made from Iraq to Belgium?
[r] I don’t understand exactly.
[i] Do you often think again of your flight from Iraq to Belgium? Do you think often?
[r] I think the people come to here or me?
[i] No, do you think about all the way you made from the story you told now?
[r] Of course, never. I will never forget that. Of course. Sometimes I write in my laptop every day what happened. I always forget. Ok, I’m going to complete the writing.
[i] Because you also told me that you have a diary, right?
[r] Yeah.
[i] Is it that book?
[r] Well, not this. But also I write sometimes here. Yes. It’s not this. I have another one. I think it’s here. Do you want this?
[i] Yes.
[r] I write a lot about it. What I can find right now? I have like this one. The camera? So this one I move. This too. This. Yes.
[i] What is that?
[r] These are words. Yes.
[i] English words.
[r] When I was in Serbia you have to explain to say this children, this out, this, you know? I don’t know. When I come here I write the word English in Arabic. This. This.
[i] What is that? I put it a bit low. Here. Is it the way, the map?
[r] How, when and how and what happened. And I write here, you know? It’s English. Yes. I don’t know if I finish it. This Netherlands. Yes, that is. And I have another book like this but I don’t know where I can find this. Yes.
[i] What are your dreams for the future?
[r] Oh, my dreams. Actually, first I will finish my school, my university here if I can.
[i] As an actor?
[r] Yes. And I will make my project for my life.
[i] And the project is also about your life?
[r] Well, yeah. I see it’s really really nice if I make it. I mean, it’s my dream to make it.
[i] To tell your story?
[r] Yes.
[i] What is your project all about?
[r] I mean, if when I gonna be good English have or Netherlands, I’m gonna make film to my story or just to save for myself or just make to theater, you know? I know now is a lot of actor make theater or first thing or project about future future but just make what he hear, what he see. But it’s different what you feel. If I do my my project because I know, I feel it. I was in this things, you know? Maybe will be different. That’s what I want to send to people. Yeah. Yeah.
[i] And do you do you see your future here in Belgium?
[r] No. No. It’s not possible.
[i] You go back to Iraq?
[r] Well, if my country will be okay.
[i] Or where do you see your future? In which place?
[r] In Canada maybe or in Iraq.
[i] Why Canada?
[r] Because I have all of my family there. Yeah.
[i] Okay, they also…
[r] Yeah, but then before Saddam Hussein live there. Because when Saddam Hussein come I have problem with them and them going to Canada. For a long time. So that’s what I think. Maybe I live in Canada or in Iraq. Or maybe still here. I have no idea. Yeah.
[i] But it’s interesting that you’re telling me that you want to do something with your story. Because also with the Red Star Line. But it’s already from 2019. We want to do something with the story that you told right now. We want people to read, to see the stories that you people gave us. Maybe we can… Maybe there is a way I don’t know that you can already tell something.
[r] We’re gonna see. We’re gonna see. We have time. Maybe one year or two years. I don’t know. But we have time.
[i] I think I asked most of my questions. Is there still something that you want to tell? That you want to share?
[r] Well… Yes. I just want to say we have to live together in the world without war. Because otherwise we have time. Not open time. We have like 100 years. 1000 years. And then we will be finished. So I hope we still love each other. We live with peace. Without problems. I hope that people don’t care about your nationality or about your culture. Your European or your Arabic or China or somewhere else. You have to look inside. It’s not like black hair or he Muslim or he Greece or he some. .. or Buddha or he this. No. Just look inside. What he have inside. Maybe he will be good person. Maybe he is wonderful. That’s what I hope to people to do. And thank you.
[i] That’s a nice message.
[r] Thank you.
[i] Thank you
[r] Merci