SU_A_33

[r] …down and give love for persons. You don’t want to be a bad person for nothing reason. Yeah, it gives you cool down and just hope, more hopes. Even when you are in a bad situation, Yeah, you say always, yeah, God’s given me strength after this. So I know, so I have to, yeah. So, yeah, we don’t never give up. Even if it’s taking a lot, but yeah.
[i] That’s nice. Well, I’ll just fill this form first. The profession of your mother.
[r] Profession?
[i] Yeah, job.
[r] Before she was a soldier, but now she don’t have nothing.
[i] And now?
[r] She don’t have nothing. She’s in Ethiopia, so she don’t have nothing work. My aunt is in Australia, so sometimes she send for her money. She lives with our family, they are in Ethiopia. So she’s with them now. Yeah, it’s my sister. So she don’t have work because it’s not her country, Ethiopia.
[i] And what’s the name of your father?
[r] My father?
[i] Yeah. [name]. I … And his first name? Yeah, his first name is [name]. His name is [name], my father. And that’s your last name then? You take his… Yeah, my name is [name]. And his name is [name]. So here you want his name and his father’s name.
[i] His father’s name. Yeah, [name]. Even now, you want, you can W after [name]. [name]. [name]. You have this W. Here is [name]. Here is [name].
[i] Ah. And what is [name]?
[r] [name] means… [name] means he do it for you, [name]. That means my mother’s father, his name is [name]. [name] means you do for the god, [name]. [name] means, [name] means born. He born [name]. Yeah, they do like that.
[i] Wow. A lot of last names are [name].
[r] With the god, yeah.
[i] With something.
[r] With the god, yeah. Yeah, even for the girls sometimes, [name]. [name] means for the god’s mother, [name]. Even the girls, they make that, yeah. I can’t reveal it like that.
[i] Wow.
[r] But we are a new generation, our name is shorts.
[i] Shorts?
[r] Yeah, it’s new generation. So we, before there are no nothing in this world. They know only their, yeah, only what they do, not other countries. Even they don’t know, they are in speak words, they know that, yeah, only. So we born after this situation. So we know at this time, even in our country, it’s expensive to know everything. But a little bit, yeah, you know, you see movies, you play football. You see before, it’s nothing, only farming. And shop keep, shopping for the sheep or cows. Yeah, it’s the life before. You don’t know nothing. So, yeah.
[i] It’s changed.
[r] Yeah, so now we are the new world for that country. So we know everything, not everything, but a little bit. So we don’t like the name slang, you know, just we need shorts. Yeah.
[i] Yeah. That’s why it’s G.
[r] Yeah, that’s changed.
[i] What is the profession of your father? Job of your father?
[r] Yeah, the same. He’s dead now.
[i] He’s dead now?
[r] Yeah, before a lot of, yeah, even when I was a child, when I was in Eritrea. Yeah. When I was seven, I escaped from Eritrea to Ethiopia with my mother. Because it’s hard time there at the time. I don’t know nothing at that time, but yeah. My father is dead. When he’s dead, the life is difficult at that time because before my mother was soldier. When he’s free, he comes. Yeah. My father, it’s have a little bit like, yeah, it’s not supermarket, but for us, yeah, like supermarket at that time. Yeah. We, we gone live by that. When my father just stop, so we don’t have nothing, just we have to escape. Yeah, my mother decide to go Ethiopia because, yeah, she know they are a family of my father. My father is Ethiopia. My mother is Eritrea. And when they fight for Dergi or, you don’t know Dergi? You don’t know. But it’s dictator before, yeah, for Eritrea and Tigray. They are in Ethiopia, but it’s Tigray, the name of the religion. So we have the same language with them, like Netherlands and Belgium. They have the same language. So we are two countries, but they have the same language, Tigrinya. So at that time, they fight together to the, the dictator. So when they have a freedom, yeah, my father is living Eritrea with my mother. So I born at that time. When he’s dead, yeah, she don’t have nothing. She have to go his brothers or something to Ethiopia. And I grow up in Ethiopia. Yeah. It’s nice, but Ethiopia is not good. They don’t have a job. Even they don’t take care of the young people that’s in Eritrea. No one’s care about you. You have to fight yourself. Even you don’t have a chance, it’s a little bit. For me, it’s very difficult. When I grow up, I see my mother, she don’t have nothing. She always, yeah, waiting for another person. So I think a lot of things. But yeah, I decide to come Europe because, yeah, a lot of Eritreans, they go in Europe. Yeah. You see them in Facebook or something. You don’t know Europe, but just, maybe that’s nice. Because I can’t turn to Eritrea. I can’t. Because in Eritrea, if you are 15, boy or girls, no problem. You have to go soldier. So it’s difficult there, you know. Even you can’t go city to city in Eritrea. You can’t. You have to pay permission to go home.
[i] Oh, really?
[r] Yeah. You have to ask. If you go yourself or you go and they ask you too much things. They don’t have freedom still now. So I decide to go Sudan.
[i] Okay. Maybe first, maybe… Let me see. Yeah, maybe… We’ll just… Maybe you can just tell me… First, your name, please.
[r] Okay, my name is [name].
[i] And where are you from?
[i] I’m from Eritrea.
[i] Okay. Maybe you can tell me a little bit about your country. So you told me that you were born in Eritrea and then you went back to Ethiopia.
[r] Yeah, I’m going to Ethiopia. Because of my mother. The life is very difficult for her. She have two children. And her husband is dead. So she can’t… She don’t have things to feed us. A lot of things, yeah. Because the government, they don’t… He didn’t do nothing for her. Because before she was a soldier, she don’t have nothing. She have to support by the government. She don’t have knowledge, nothing.
[i] And she was a soldier since she was…
[r] Yeah, so long… The fighting with the Dergis takes like 20, 17 years, I think. So she’s there.
[i] 20 years?
[r] 20, 17 years, I think. I’m not sure. It’s a long time. Yeah. When she was young, she go in there. She grow up in the… In the army?
[r] In the army. She had a lot of shots … Her head is, yeah. It’s like… You know, what the… When the bombs coming, it’s a little bit something, so yeah. She have… She didn’t… She must be in operation, but she has gone a lot of time. So it’s bad now. She can… But yeah, she not bad. Sometimes I understand her. Yeah. Now she can say, yeah. I want to live for her. Yeah. She never happy before. Maybe now, when I was in Europe, yeah. She say, yeah. Maybe one day I will see you in good place. She say that.
[i] Your mother is still in… Ethiopia.
[r] Ethiopia, yeah.
[i] And when did she meet your father? What she…
[r] When she was a soldier. Yeah. Because I told you, Tigray and Eritrea, they have the same language. And at that time, the dictator is the Ethiopian government for all Ethiopia, even for Eritrea at that time. So Tigray and Eritrea, they decide to fight to the government. Only… From all… Only these two religions. Yeah. At that time, they are together. In training or… Everywhere. So just… They have a love there. When she told me, yeah. So, yeah. When freedom is coming, yeah, they live in Senafe together in the city. And they sell something like coffee, sugar like that in Eritrea. A little bit like supermarkets. Not, that big. But my father is dead when I was seven. I don’t remember, I remember a little bit when he was working in the shop, but I go off now.
[i] And what happened to your father?
[r] I think he is sick, my mother told me like that. He is sick but I don’t ask her a lot of things. But she told me he was sick and he is dead.
[i] And how was life in Senafe? Was it, is it a big city or is it a village?
[r] Yeah, it’s not a big city like Asmara, like Keren, Mendefara, it’s the biggest cities. But Senafe city but it’s not a big city. But yeah, it’s a city. Maybe it’s a mini city. Yeah, it’s a little bit but yeah. The life there is good. Yeah, the person is always nice. But yeah, you know, when you are a person, you want to live, you want what you want. So at the time, if you don’t have nothing, sometimes the life is difficult, together to live. Because too much, they need from you, because they don’t have. So at that time, yeah, you have to leave them. Because if you are with them, you always… Yeah, so not more people have money there. Because before they are all in soldier. So they can’t freedom, they don’t have nothing. So they try.
[i] So there was no work for people?
[r] No work, yeah. But in the village, they have in the winter, you have to farm. And the young people, they go and wait the cows, sheep, like that. It’s not a big work. Only with the winter, we farm and with that. But yeah, in the city, it’s a little bit situation with the people. But it’s not more like…
[i] And then your parents, they had like a little restaurant?
[r] No, not restaurant.
[i] Oh, a supermarket.
[r] Supermarket, yeah.
[i] Where you could drink coffee.
[r] Not drink coffee. They sell the coffee, not drink for…
[i] In a package.
[r] In a package, yeah.
[i] But it was difficult to earn money?
[r] Yeah, it’s difficult. Even that is not enough. Yeah, even you don’t get a lot of money from that, yeah. For food, for… Even we don’t have clothes. When you are born in Italy, you are a child. It’s not a good place to get children. When you are children here, you see everything support for you. You have… And you grow up, you… Full mind. There, you don’t know nothing. You’re always fighting with this ground. Just you don’t have clothes. You are a child. It’s no shame, you know. You go on the streets. You don’t have nothing, even the girl, the boat. It’s like maybe… It’s shame, but it’s like… I mean, what? Yeah, you can’t say like that, because, yeah. They know it’s bad, but they don’t have.
[i] And you lived there until you were seven?
[r] Yeah, seven.
[i] And what do you remember? Do you know how you were feeling when you were li… Did you remember that it is your house?
[r] Yeah, a little bit. I remember my father takes me to the… lesson of the church. We have a lesson when you are child. Like here in… The kids gone for school. Yeah, like that. Yeah, like praying, singing to God. And sometimes the letter of Tigrinya. Yeah, you have to read. They say, ha, who, he. Yeah, you say, yeah. Yeah, you are child. At that time, I have a lot of friends. Yeah, and we play with… Without our shoes. And we put the ground. And just we say, pipi. I remember that when I was child.
[i] You pretend like it’s an animal or…
[r] No, we think it’s like car.
[i] A car.
[r] Yeah, pipi, pipi. It’s soil, you know. And we see, we look like, ha. When you go home, yeah. Your father or your mother. Where have you been? You see your face. They beat you. Ah. Yeah, the life.
[i] Do you have a lot of friends there?
[r] At that time, yeah. But now I don’t know them because, yeah, it’s a lot of time. Because when I’m going to Ethiopia, I have to meet another person. And I begin school there. Yeah, and just… For me, when I was a child in Ethiopia also, it’s good. But when I grow up… Everything is not good. Yeah, it’s… When you grow up, it’s coming bad things, you know. You stress, you think, your future. And you see your mother, your father, your family, they have nothing. Even in the country, you will see nothing. And you want back to your country something. Even there, nothing. It’s difficult. So, yeah, I decide to come. Europe. But, yeah, it’s a long time, I know, to come here. And I know a lot of persons, they die in Libya, in Sudan, in desert. But when you see everything, just you decide. Yeah. If I’m here, I don’t have nothing, but one day I’m dead. If I try to go Europe and change my life, maybe one day, yeah, it’s gonna be change my life. And I can change a person’s life, I think. Yeah, if I die, yeah. Yeah, we decide that. I come with my friend. We are two. He’s younger than me. Yeah, but he’s strong in mind. We decide to come to Sudan. by the D force, you know, the D force.
[i] …?
[r] They slagging, like, you know. They black mafia. They work illegal. So, you have to meet them. You know, the situation to go Europe is difficult. But yeah, if you decide, you have to meet them and you have to discuss. They don’t listen you. But for beginning, yeah, they listen you. But when they catch you, everything is… They decide everything themselves. You have not chance to say nothing. If they say, do this, okay. Because you are with them. If you say something, they have a gun, a lot of things. They beat you. Yeah, it was in the night, in the dark, yeah. A lot of persons in one big car. You don’t go far. When you go one city, you change for another person. And they put you, like… They have a lot of prisons from… Sudan to Libya. Yeah. When you are here two weeks, three weeks, you are stay here. They give you little bit food, like that. After one week, they say, yeah, go, come, come. You have to go. They say, yeah, Europe, Europe. But Europe is far. But you don’t know nothing. Okay. You going by the car another city. And they give you another prison. You stay there. What they say, you don’t know nothing. One day they are coming and they say… Again, again, again. After that… They say, you have to pay this much money. I don’t have, you say. I don’t have that much money. He told me like this, but you say this. How I get this money? I don’t know, he say. If you don’t pay that, I can do anything, he say. But he say… You know, they do a lot of things. Even they out your card, something.
[i] Organs.
[r] Yeah. A lot of persons, I know they are, they are dead by that things. Because they don’t have money. Because they, you… They can wait for you two years like that. If you have a hope, someone says, maybe I can. If someone say like that. You give them always a phone. Someone know you. So they mission call for him. And he turn back to call. And they say, you know this guy? Yeah, he’s with us. So we need this much money. If you pay, he can’t go Europe. If he didn’t pay, yeah. We gonna do anything. They say like that. Yeah. I stay in… From Libya… From Sudan to Libya. It takes for me like one month like that in desert. No water, no food.
[i] But did you go with those guys? Or did you pay them? Could you pay them money?
[r] No, I didn’t pay at that time. I told them just when I reach in Libya… When I reach in Libya, just I can pay it. Because I have family to pay for me. But I don’t have. That just… You need to go there. And you… When you reach there… You give them phone. Someone’s know. And they call. He’s with us. And your family. They know the situation there. And they don’t have money. But they can ask a lot of persons. Yeah. Friends, families. Knows you. And yeah. All… When you are here… I’m here now. A lot of persons in Libya. So just… When they asking me money… For example, even 10 euro. 20 euro. Just… Yeah. For all persons. For one person. Like… Yeah. We do like this every day. To save a life. And…
[i] But you left from… Because when you were seven, you went from Eritrea to Ethiopia.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And how long did you live in Ethiopia?
[r] In Ethiopia… Yeah. It’s long. Because I learn up to 10.
[i] What’s that?
[r] From one grade one up to 10.
[i] Ah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[r] And just after… When I was… I played football there. So just from seven up to 23, 22, I was in Ethiopia.
[i] And then… Why did you decide to leave? Because Ethiopia wasn’t better than Eritrea?
[r] Yeah.
[i] It was better.
[r] Better… Yeah. But in Ethiopia, you can’t think good things. That’s… They don’t go… A real… Yeah. Because… Yeah. Even in Ethiopia, you have freedom, but the politics in Ethiopia also is not good. It’s not good. Yeah. It’s a lot of corruptions. They support for the rich people, the government, not for the… poor. Even I am not from Ethiopia, so I don’t have a lot of chances there to be myself.
[i] But you were speaking the same language.
[r] Yeah, with Eritrea it’s the same one. That’s why I live there.
[i] Yeah.
[r] Even my father is from that country. And just… But my father, I have family there, so I have a little bit confidence to live, but I don’t have more, because sometimes, yeah, Eritrean, Ethiapians, they fight each other. Yeah. But the people’s not… It’s in politics. The people’s… Ethiopia and Eritrea’s peace… The people’s peace even now, here… Yeah. But the politics, yeah, they throw up the walls to fight the peoples. They are pushers. They are dictators. They know you don’t have a mind. When you are coming to Europe, all things clear at this time. But when you are there, you don’t know nothing. You know the governments do everything. So you wait. You wait, but they don’t do nothing. So your mind is… Yeah, they kill your mind. And you spend your time in bad things. Yeah. Your life is not… You live for nothing.
[i] So when you arrived in Europe, then you realized?
[r] Yeah. I’m new. Really, I’m new. You know, when I was in Libya, the difficult situation for me in life is in Libya, Because in Libya, they speak […], because Libya, they don’t have the government. And the gangsters, they have one city, one city for one person, one city, and they have a lot of soldiers. And yeah, when you are come, They put us like 500 persons in one room like this. You don’t have food, clothes, you can’t sleep like this. You sleep like this, someone sleeps here. What is it like? Materials they put you. And even you pay the money but they don’t care. They say you have to be 1,000 people to go to Europe. So you wait. I’ll pay what you say. Shut up, they say. Like that one, someone is sick. He needs medicine, a doctor, but no one cares for him. After one week he’s dead. He paid the money, but he’s dead. You see it. For the first time, you say, oh, like that, you shout. But after one month, someone is dead here. It’s nothing. He’s dead, it’s nothing. You sleep here, someone sleeps with you. When you wake up, you say, wake up, wake up. But he’s not alive. But that gives you strength. That’s in mind, you don’t have hopes. You think I’m dead. Another time, when you shout for the gangsters, you say, I have to go. Because I’m paying, you say that. But they say, no, you have to be thousands. And the sea is not good now. It has a lot of waves. So we have small ships. If we put a lot of you there, yeah, you’re going to die. So you have to wait, they say. Yeah, we know that. But just here also, we wait, we wait. We don’t have food. We are dead anyways. So we won’t try the chance. If you are dead, yeah, even here we are dead. We say like that. But they say, shut up. And they do the gunshot to shut up for you. Sometimes if you feel bad things, if you shout, they’re going to give you a shot. At the time, the people all shut down. Because one person is dead. Dead or alive, I stayed there one year and six months.
[i] One year and six months?
[r] Six months.
[i] In the same place?
[r] One room, I didn’t see a sun for one year and six months. It’s a big lock. It’s locked. When he’s coming, he opens and he says something. And he closes, he’s gone. When you want someone, he’s calling. If you are my family, you call for the gangster. And you say, I need madrag. When he’s gone, madrag comes. Only one. I’m going outside in the door. And he gives the phone. And I talk with my family. Please, please, I said. Sometimes if your family say, I don’t have nothing. They say, the gangster, they beat you. Shouts. It’s a lot of things. If you will, I can’t show you pictures on my phone. How they beat you. How… It’s a difficult situation in Libya. It’s too big. People are dead there. They are people, but they are all like us. Like people. Never. They have horses. They have ships. They ship for them good food.
[i] They are rich.
[r] Yeah. They have money. They have nice, nice cars. But they don’t give you nothing.
[i] And everybody there was waiting for one year?
[r] Even more. If you are lucky. Sometimes, yeah. The persons, they pay the money. Maybe if they are 500. Or like that. If you are coming new. And you, if you pay quickly. Just maybe they are five. So just, they can give you a chance to go. But if the persons pay slow. Even you pay, but you have to wait. Even take two months. Maybe one year. Two years. Three years. If you don’t pay. Still now I have friend there. He is like five years there. Because no one pay for him. But he work for them. Like he make foods for the persons. It’s not good food. For life, you know. And they promise him. One day we gonna send you. Without money. They say. But five years still now he is there. Even now no chance to come Europe. Because they closed everything. They have UNHSR in Libya. But even UNHSR is in Libya. But you can’t reach there. Because the UNHSR is in the big city of Libya.
[i] What is that?
[r] The city is… UNSR?
[i] UNSR? No.
[r] The city… The big city of Libya.
[i] Yeah.
[r] It’s name… I don’t know the name. I forget.
[i] Ah. But what did he say? The… You cannot reach the…
[r] UNHSR. UN.
[i] Ah. UN.
[r] UN is in the big city. So… The… The… Yeah. The refugees they want to go there. To subscribe. Use their name. Yeah. So… But they can’t. Because a lot of wars. Because each other. The countries they fight. And… One gangster. He have a lot of persons. So they… Another persons comes to take them. To… To have money. You know? If you have money there for them. I’m like… Yeah. It’s difficult.
[i] And did you pay money?
[r] Yeah.
[i] How much did you pay?
[r] Ah…
[r] Four thousand dollars I pay.
[i] And… How could you pay? Did you have money?
[r] Yes. When I was in Libya. I just… I surprised that. But when I’m coming here. Just… My mother told me everything. Yeah. Like… For me like… Crazy. You know? Because my mother… Yeah. Is… Mmm… From a lot of persons. She ask. Yeah. Because my… My child is in Libya. They gonna kill him. Please help me. She say for a lot of persons. Even for my uncle. He is in Australia. He supports… Not all. But yeah. He support a little bit. Yeah. So… Like that way. She pay that. Yeah. One day I will… I will… She give me like…
[i] And you paid it to go from Libya to Europe? Or you paid it for… From… From Ethiopia to Europe. All of them. Because… They know when I’m coming for them. Just… They know I have money for them. So… So… Yeah. They know when I’m coming in Libya… Without payment I can’t go. So… They have confidence. Yeah. Because I give my life for them. They can kill me.
[i] And… How did you go from… From Ethiopia to Libya?
[r] Yeah. It’s not difficult. From Ethiopia to Sudan. Because… Yeah. It’s border. You can… There are borders.
[i] Ah, borders, yeah.
[r] Sudan in Ethiopia. So you can go to the border of Ethiopia city. Yeah. And… You know illegal. They know the way. Yeah. And you reach Sudan’s border. And they are there. In Sudan it’s not like Ethiopia. No have laws. Nothing. No one’s can do anything there. Yeah. You can sell guns, knives in the street.
[i] And did you leave with some friends to Sudan? From Ethiopia to Sudan? Or did you go alone?
[r] No, with one friend. His name is [name]. He was in Belgium for one year, but they don’t give him a paper because he is from Ethiopia.
[i] And he has to go back?
[r] They say like that, but he said he didn’t want to go back. And he said, I have to go to England. I tried because… Yeah, because he needs to stay here. Because if he talks about his life… So I have to stay here to change his life.
[i] Why didn’t he get the papers? In Ethiopia it’s not bad enough? Or do you know why?
[r] Yeah, I know. Because in Eritrea they have a problem with the government and the whole world knows. But in Ethiopia, it’s freedom in Ethiopia. The government, they don’t know he’s not bad. So Europe says, yeah, you are free country. That’s why.
[i] And this friend, was he a friend of you since you were children? Like, do you know him for a long time?
[r] Yeah, I know him. Not from children, but yeah, when I was playing football when I was 14, I think. I played football. So at that time, he was a child. And when I’m going football, he comes with me and he supports me. And he holds my t-shirt or something. He grow up. Yeah, when I was finished school at 10, you don’t have nothing. No work, no hope, no nothing. If you go home, your mother, she don’t have nothing to feed you. So you have to fight your life outside. So I just, I change football to, yeah, football does not have money there. So I have to do something and I make a DJ in the nightclubs. So yeah, sometimes I do that. So yeah, at that time, he was always my friend. So we see a lot of situation and he told me just, I didn’t think to come in Europe because I don’t have idea. But he know something and he told me. Because a lot of actress, they are coming his house, his mother house. And she’s from Ethiopia and she have a cafe for selling beers. It’s not like a nightclub, but yeah, it’s cool. So when they speak about that, you know, he know something and he come. Yeah, you are Eritrean? Yeah. Your country persons, they are going to Europe. How? I say. He told me everything. Okay, after they get in Europe and yeah, they can have a paper and they can change their life, he say. Really? Yeah. And for you? I don’t know, it’s bad, difficult, but just I try. Maybe I can say like Eritrean, he say. Because you have the same language, he say. You can try, yeah, and you will be with him. But here they can… Because the language is the same, but accent is a little bit different. So they can know you when you speak. Yeah, it’s a difference. Like Holland and Belgium, they have the same language, but accent is a little bit different. I would like to be with me, but… Yeah. Even [name] tried to do something.
[i] And the moment when you decided to go to the border of Sudan, did you leave at night or during daytime?
[r] Because it’s not… For us it’s not at night. It’s like in the… In the midday, yeah. So because the… I told you the persons in Ethiopia, they don’t know nothing. What you are doing, they don’t know. If you want to kill someone, you can take him. Where you take him, they don’t know nothing. Even the police is not good police. The police is there, they work for money, not for right, for… Yeah. It’s difficult to live there. It’s have freedom in Ethiopia, but… Now… Crap.
[i] So and then you just… You didn’t have to go… You just left during the daytime?
[r] Yeah, I go there and someone told me when you go there, there are light lights works and you can ask them. Yeah. After they can take you from that… When you meet that person, after that, you don’t be nothing. He know everything. He take you to Libya. How he take you, at that time you see that one. So I go there with my friend and just we meet the person and he told us…
[i] At the border of Sudan?
[r] No, it’s in Ethiopia. It’s in the border, but it’s a little small city. And we meet him there and just he ask our name and we told him and asked, you want to go to Libya? No, Libya we won’t go Europe. Yeah, I know, but yeah, we say. So you must pay. Yeah, we know. You have money? We don’t have money. Doesn’t matter. We know how it works. They know everything. Okay. And they call and they are coming two motorcyclists. Yeah, we sit in the van and they take us to Sudan. At that time they say they look like this because in the border they have a lot of things that they take. Gunshot, but yeah, it’s motorcycle, you have to fast. It’s from that time up to Libya, it’s bad, but it’s like Spartak, you know, the movie. You don’t have nothing.
[i] How did you feel when you were on the motorcycle? Did you know what was going to happen?
[r] I don’t know, nothing. Nothing. He looks at some persons. What do you look? I ask him. Yeah, here’s some. He don’t tell me because if he told me, I afraid. So he know the work, how to work. But I try to understand him. And I do like this. But we are lucky at that time, not too much. When we reached the house, what he want to reach, when we reach there, there’s a lot of persons there. And they say, shut up. And he go. He sit down. And we say, we need water. Okay, wait. That time he came to Sudan in May, it’s the first time to see Sudan. He speak Arabic a lot of, what he say. You don’t understand? Yeah, but most of the Eritreans, we have in Eritrea speaking Arabic, so they translated for us. He said, just don’t shut down. When you need something, you don’t be shout when I’m coming. Tell me what you want. After that, you don’t be speak too slow. Because here, a lot of things, they come to take you. They fight for me and they take you. And they ask you more money. So you have to be silent. You say, okay. I say, okay. If you give me water, okay. If you say it’s not enough, I’m gonna beat you. So you have to stay. And just after, from the border, they take us to the desert.
[i] How long did you have to stay there, in that house?
[r] In that house, if you want pay, they have money there. But here, you have to stay up to pay. If you say I pay in Libya, they send you from Khartoum, they pick up to take you to Khartoum. But we say, we don’t want to stay in Khartoum. We want to go to Europe, so we don’t need to stay here. When we reach Libya, we do the payment with the family. How it works, they know that. And they say, okay. They send for us pick-up. The pick-up takes us from the border to the desert beginning. You know, the desert, the big desert. And we stay in the desert for 12 days, I think, yeah. Nothing house there, nothing… Yeah, it’s only desert.
[i] No house?
[r] No house, nothing. Only one. A big thing for water. Because during the days, new persons coming, coming. When you reach like 300, like that. Yeah, they are coming in big trucks. Not too much, but yeah, big trucks. 150 people, one truck, 150, one truck. It’s big. You begin to go Libya. It takes one month to Libya. It’s desert. Nothing. No water, nothing.
[i] So you were for 12 days in the desert without water?
[r] We have water, but it’s not enough, you know. You don’t be wash only for drink when you eat. Because there are Sudanese. When you eat, you come, they give you water. It’s one cup. He hold that and he give you drink. You go and he drink for you. For all. At time, at time. Yeah, if you don’t come at time. If you go far, he didn’t wait you. The water is here, but you are coming. Time’s up. I’m thirsty, I don’t care.
[i] Did it happen to you?
[r] Yeah, one time. I’m going to piss. Because you don’t have to piss with the people. I’ll go away. At that time they begin. Because you don’t have watch, you don’t know the time. Yeah. When I’m coming, they finish. And I told him I want drink. He said stop. But yeah.
[i] Were you angry?
[r] Yeah, I shout a lot of things. Why? I’m thirsty. If you see you are like me, or what you do, bro, why? I say for him a lot of things. But he say, he speak Arabic. But I speak Tiringa. You know. At that time, yeah, I know some Arabs, they can translate, but they don’t need. Because it’s difficult. Because you have a chance to meet you. Because you don’t have force. Not force only. In mind, he is the boss. So after 12 days, yeah, it comes a lot of persons there by pick up. Today comes 5 persons. Tomorrow comes 10. It comes 500. So we begin.
[i] And what did you do the whole day?
[r] Sleep. You do the desert like this to be a little bit cold. Because it’s too much warm. Yeah, and you sleep there. It’s hot and you change there. Yeah. It’s difficult, but yeah. At that time, for me, very, very difficult. But now, that teach me a lot of things. You know, yeah. If you have strong to do something, yeah, it’s… Maybe takes a long. It’s worry a lot of. But if you have strength, you can reach what you want. I stay there. Even I can’t study this in school.
[i] Even?
[r] I can’t study this in school. It’s… Yeah. Never. It’s… Yeah. If someone see that, yeah, I think his mind is brave. This is all… It’s change, yeah. But not all. Some persons, they escape by that. But here, when you see him, you don’t have nothing to… Yeah. Think.
[i] Yeah. And what did you think when you were there? Did you think about the future or about…
[r] At the beginning of the journey, yeah, I have a lot of hopes. Because I decide… Maybe I’m dead and now if I’m dead, yeah, I try and I’m dead. But if I reach, I hope everything, maybe my life change. I can do what I want. Just when I was in Ethiopia, I fell for […]. I feel sometimes music, you know. My… My house. But when I was in Ethiopia, it’s not gonna happen. Yeah. But when I beginning the journey, yeah, if I reach in Europe, yeah. Europe is good, yeah. But when I was in Libya, I decided to dead. I pray for God. I wanna die. Too much times I say like that. In 2006, in the first month, we are… We stay in the… After eight months in Libya, just… I pay already, so just this… Like 300 people… We are 500, but 300 people still… We have to go Europe. They say, OK. And they take us to the beach, to the city, the sea. And they say, stay. Why not stay? We are coming here. Where is the boat? We wanna go. You have to stay because the police, it’s not legal. So we have to stay. We see everything, the weather, everything. And we said, why… Why… Why do this? You can stay there. If you are proper, everything, just you can call us here. But they don’t proper nothing. And we are coming there. They don’t have food. They don’t have house to stay us. And we really at that time just… Yeah, I am like insects, not animals. In my life. It’s horse’s house, you know, the horse’s house. Yeah… Fifth… Yeah… Like… Fifty… Fifty… Fifty percent in my horse’s house. You see, we sit like this for three weeks. And if you do like this, one person is there, he’s from Libya. He have a long stick. And if you do like this, he’ll beat you. I wanna peace. No problem. You can’t be still. Ah, please. You know, in your trousers. See? And the horse’s peepee smile. And just you have insects in your body. Ah… For three weeks. After three weeks, the girls they smile. All the girls, the Eritrean girls, they smile because they have the… You know, the girls, they have to do a lot of things, yeah. But they don’t have water for three weeks. So they smile. At the time, the Libyai said just… They sick and they… One girl, she dead. She was pregnant. And, yeah, she was a little bit sick. After three months, she dead. When she dead, they decide to send us to Italy. So they prepare a boat. And they say, today you have to go. Okay. At that time, they begin by the girls. And when we are 50, they say stop. One house. Because the ship is full. So we have to stay. No! We shout because we need to go. At the night. So they begin to go. And we shout. And they shot on us. The guard. But no one is dead. And we say, shut up. And after one day, they are coming to see us. And we say, they are getting in Europe. But we are here. Oh, my God. Why? We say. But we don’t know one thing. They are all dead. All. But we don’t know that time.
[i] Who were dead?
[r] All the persons with the girls. They gone by the ship. But they not reaching Europe. They all dead.
[i] What happened?
[r] We think they are getting, but they are dead.
[i] What happened?
[r] Because the boat was broken in the sea. And they are dead at that time. Yeah, it’s 2016, the beginning of the new year. So it’s very cold. So no one is, all dead. So I am like here. Yeah. And after 8 months again, just I tried. I’m going to Italy.
[i] So you were three weeks in the horse house and then you went to the other place for one year?
[r] There, in Libya, three weeks only in the beach, in the sea. After eight months they sent me to the sea. So at the sea they told us you have to wait for the condition of the weather and something with the police, they said like that. So we have to stay like this. It’s the final decision, we have to go in land. After that, only sea. So it’s the last hope. So everybody, three weeks like this, you just have to do that.
[i] And wasn’t your body hurting?
[r] Yeah, we have scratches, a lot of scratches. It’s bleeding, insects inside our clothes. And it’s very hot, it’s […]. But at that time I think it’s the end of the world, I think. But it’s gone, everything. It teaches you something.
[i] And then finally you could, there was a boat.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And how did you feel when you knew that you could take the boat?
[r] Yeah, it’s a second chance for me, I told you before. After eight months staying in Libya, I tried one time. But I’m not lucky. I have to put in the boat. Only the girls and the children they get and it’s full. And they try and they die. After, just they say, yeah, all is here in Europe. So don’t worry, we can send you after two weeks. Because the sea is not good weather. They say like that, so okay. And yeah, at that time we have the spots. So yeah, it’s a bit. After, we think after two weeks, yeah. Because we think they are in Europe. But they are dead, we don’t know nothing. After two weeks they say, yeah, the weather is not good. It’s very cold. So we have to turn back to the prison. And we think, a lot of things. Maybe the ship is not getting in Europe. Because they say like this. I have to say something, okay. Because it’s life. Okay, we say. But they don’t tell us. We turn back to the prison. There’s 200 people. So when we are coming, they cry. Because ours, yeah. They cry. But we think, who’s dead here? But after they told us, the friends asked, they all dead. Yeah, cry. But… After eight months again. Yeah, I try and like…
[i] So you came back and then you have to wait for another eight months? It’s not a must.
[r] But they do. Because it’s not my decision. It’s their dumb decision.
[i] Yeah, so you were waiting again for eight months.
[r] Again for eight months. In the week, we always ask, we want to go. They say, wait, wait. Wait, wait, wait, wait. After eight months, they send us. It’s difficult. Yeah, but yeah. Come by that way.
[i] And then finally, they took you back to the sea again?
[r] The sea again. And we don’t… At the time, we are 50. Only persons. Because, yeah. We have a chance 50%. We are 250 still. But… Before eight months, 50 persons. We try, but we back. So just the chance for us. So 50 persons again, go to the sea. With another person. Yeah. They separate us. And we are 500 persons. In one… It’s not a beach. Yeah. It’s boats. And they put us there. Yeah. And we pray to God. Because when you see, look. It’s water. It’s up, sky, nothing. Sea. It’s a little boat. And a lot of shouting. The girls, they are afraid. And someone is praying. It’s a lot of things there. But yeah. We are lucky. At times, looking wave. Yeah. We are lucky.
[i] How long did it take to cross the sea?
[r] It’s take three days. But… But by that small boat, it takes, like… After two days. The big ships come from Spain for us, because first the helicopter is coming and when the helicopter see us, we try to connect with some ships and Spanish ships come to save us, because at that time we have someone shot by the gun, he’s from Somalia, because we separate with another prison person. So at that prison, the gangster says, the Eritreans, first they have to go. And the Somalians, no, even we have to go. And they fight there. And they shot him, because he was shot at that time. And when he’s shot, they have a bullet, the gun is bite, he interbites and stuff like this. So they have blood and they say, I take it with the Eritreans. Not all Somalians, only him, because they kill him, they think. They think he’s dead in sea, because they don’t care about life.
[i] Did they throw him in the sea?
[r] No, they say to the ship with us. And to get us, they want to child at that time. So we shout and they send us a big ship, the European Union. At that time, I’m reaching Europe, I say, the ship.
[i] So how do you feel?
[r] Yeah, I feel good and at that time, a little bit, my stomach is sick.
[i] In the sea?
[r] When we change the big ship. After one or two days, the Spanish big ship is coming to save us. Because it’s difficult, even the water is beginning getting, it’s with the boat. So just the water is getting, we do for hours. It’s scaring. At that time, when we connect with the Spanish ship, they are coming to save us. They give us clothes, we put our clothes all out. And they give us shampoo, we wash, and they give us food. It has a lot of proteins, I don’t know what. But we eat, yeah, we feel good. And I’m going to check my stomach. They give me chlorine. Chlorine. Chlorine. Chlorine. You know the medicine for… And after, yeah, they interrupt me a little bit. Yeah, at that time, my English is not good. Even now it’s not good. It’s a little bit, yeah. I try. How is the journey? They say… After, yeah, even in the big ship, one day it takes to England. Yeah. They change to Italian ships, and that ship takes us in Augusta, you know, in Augusta, in Italy, yeah, we get there. And they separate us.
[i] And how… If you were almost reaching at the end of the journey from Africa to Europe, and when you were on the first ship, the little boat, were you scared or … were you happy that you were finally going to reach Europe or could you believe that you were finally there?
[r] Yeah, because, you know, it’s my hope, you know. I believe I just reached Europe because I believe in God, you know, I pray to God to give me the good things. So I believe, so I don’t have afraid in my heart, nothing. And just, yeah, I pray. But when you are in that little bit ship, there’s a lot of persons with you. So it’s not your decision only to be yourself, to be like brave. Because someone is shouting here, someone is like this, someone… So a lot of things you see, so yeah, you have to pray, you know. And yeah, we are praying at that time a little bit. Even one friend, he told me, just one friend is not reached abroad. Why? I told him, I don’t know. It’s happening again, our friends, it’s again there. A little bit, yeah, that’s… After one hour, when I see the sea and everything, yeah, we get… Don’t worry, I say like that for my friends all there. Don’t worry, don’t worry, just everything is okay. You see that it’s nothing we ever… Believe me, we reach. Yeah, you have to give them a hope. And when they see you, yeah, they believe, they come. If all afraid, you know, they gone… If the ship doing like this, all people’s gone here. So it’s gone like this, it’s a little bit ship. So if you do a little bit something good, even we have a lot of the elders. So they give us something, yeah, to be… Yeah, but you are lucky, everything is good.
[i] And then when you saw the big ships coming, how did you feel?
[r] Yeah, oh my God, at that time I remember it. We see a lot of, like us, a little boats, like six, five. Oh, and they are… They are before us. We are behind. Oh, it’s too much. It’s the big ship. Oh, it’s… Yeah, we think… But when the big ship is coming, it gives a sound. [makes sound of ship horn] Wow! It’s… It’s like building, you know. Oh… Just, yeah, we separate. But we see the boat, but we pray, yeah, to come fast. Now we see long… It’s… We think it’s here, but it’s far. We waited. We saw it. We waited two hours like that to be with us. Yeah. All of them, they all come to see, yeah. Because, yeah, it’s… You think when the big ship is coming here and you are there, it’s finished all. So just, ah, to be quicker, I’m rich, I’m rich, you say like that. When it’s coming, when they put you in the ship… I’m waiting, yeah. It’s a nice feeling at the time. I remember. Yeah. I danced there.
[i] Yeah?
[r] Yeah, I danced with the Moroccans. Yeah, the Moroccans, they love music and, yeah, they do music just, yeah, I’m only here to like music. At that time, it was always. And I’m going there every time. I mean, I danced with them. I don’t know the beat, but yeah, I try. And they appreciate me. Even the European workers, they say, oh, it’s good, it’s Europe now, everything is good, they say, welcome. Feeling like human. Before, it’s not like human, we are like dead people. Even all the persons know us before, when we are in Libya, they say, maybe he’s dead. Maybe, if he’s like in Europe. They already think you, maybe you’re dead. If you’re dead, they don’t think a lot of things, yeah. It’s the time, it’s the era of death.
[i] And were there friends that also reached the boat, do you know? I mean…
[r] The friends?
[i] Yeah, were you traveling with friends?
[r] Yeah, my friend is with me, yeah, at the boat. But he’s underaged, I told you before. So, the minors first, yeah, gone. So, the way they are stopped, yeah, I’m going another center, he go another center.
[i] And, so, you were traveling together for almost two years?
[r] Yeah, yeah, almost two years, yeah.
[i] And then suddenly, you had to split?
[r] Yeah, split. Because he’s underage, and they take him in the underage camp. And I’m not underage, they take him in another camp.
[i] And did you say goodbye, or…?
[r] You don’t know that time, you are happy, all persons for you friend. You don’t know him, but you give him a hug. Or, you don’t know what they do. They, when you are coming, they ask you your age and your name, and they give you something here.
[i] Of course.
[r] Yeah. So, they give white and yellow, the yellow is for the underage. Yeah. So, you don’t know nothing what it is. But, at the time, the miners, they do a line, which is, oh, it’s underage. Because you see, you look at them, oh, you are it, bye.
[i] So, you couldn’t say goodbye, you couldn’t…
[r] Yeah, because they beginning to go, they have a line, if I’m gone, yeah, I’m not underage, they say. So, I’m sit, he’s gone, and he told only this. After, after one year, I think, me, after two months and three weeks, I come to Belgium, by relocation.
[i] By what?
[r] Relocation. Relocation is the European Union, when the Eritrean, Syrian, I think, for two countries in Italy, when you are originally in Italy, they help you to go another countries in Europe. So, yeah.
[i] So, with the big boat, they brought you to, where did they bring you to?
[r] They bring us to the border of Italy, and the police, yeah, you do everything. And you have to give the print finger, because you are reached Italy, you are illegal, so you have to, yeah. But, they told us, it’s not to live in Italy. You have to be, give the print, because you are reached Italy first. But, yeah, for Eritrea and for Syria, they say, we gonna help you to go another countries, if you don’t like to stay in Italy. So, yeah, we give you a camp, and we ask two Europeans, your proposal or something. So, if the European country you like it, if they like you, they can send you. So, we gonna help you, it’s maybe takes six months or four, yeah. So, I just, they say like that. If you believe, you say, okay. Some people still don’t live, they gone by illegal, even from there. I know. But still now, their life is not good. They don’t have people, because they are coming themselves. So, when they are coming here, they have Italian’s print finger. So, here, they don’t give to people, you have to go Italy, because you have print in Italy. But for me, yeah, I do the law, how to come. I’m coming by education here. So, the print finger in Italy is broken. So, I give here another new print finger. I’m in Belgium, and they ask, they told me. Yeah, after interview, they give me the…
[i] And how did you know about the relocation?
[r] Yeah, they told us there.
[i] They told you.
[r] When you are reached here, you don’t know nothing, but yeah. I have a little bit, yeah, that poor thinking. And when they speak, we are relocation workers for the refugees. They are reaching Italy. And we help them to go what they want, countries in Europe. So, it takes six months, and it’s good idea. Because if you are going without us, there it’s difficult to have people, because you have Italian print finger. But Italy, they don’t give you support if you are not in your relocation. We live in Italy, but yeah. It’s not like Belgium, not like in other countries. I decide to stay, to wait relocation. To wait the relocation program. So, I begin, and they give me interview. Yeah, I do interview there. A little bit about my situation, how to come, like this. Yeah, after two months and three weeks. They say, Belgium accept you, so you can go there. And I’m coming here. And here also like that, I go to the camp. And I do two interviews. After two interviews, yeah, they give me the paper, and they give me social house. And I stay for the social house four months. And they give me money for food. After four months, you have to have own house, so you have to search yourself. Doesn’t matter, yeah. It’s difficult because you are from another country. You are black, even you don’t speak the language. So, it’s difficult. Even still now, it’s difficult. I know a lot of persons, they need help. Yeah, but for me, yeah, it’s not… It’s difficult, but I have friends, birds, a lot of friends. White friends. So, they help me and they give the house in Antwerp. Yeah. The life is going like this, yeah. After, yeah, seven, I go to school for Netherlands. Yeah, for six months. Even now, yeah, I take the lesson. The life is like this.
[i] And did you… You chose to go to Belgium? You wanted to come to Belgium?
[r] No, I didn’t choose, but I told them at that time… What you want to go? They say, and I say England. And they say, England is not Europe. And just, yeah, I just, I said that because you asked me what… Where you going? Where you would like to go? That’s why I told you England. Why you chose England? They say, because just I have a little bit English speak. So, just for me, it’s not difficult in England. That’s why I told them. Okay, we try maybe, but it’s not… It’s difficult. You can choose another country, they told me. Just, I don’t choose another country because it’s all new language for me. So, it’s the same situation for me. I don’t want to choose, but I don’t want to go France and Germany. I told them.
[i] Why not?
[r] They ask me why, and I told them, yeah. I have friends there, a lot of friends. So, just if I’m going there now… They stay a lot of years. So, when I’m new, I can’t know about the country. Because I have friends, just they give me welcome, just they know everything. Yeah, they takes me to the good, good things. So, I don’t know how to grow up my life. How to know the situation, so I don’t be there. Because I have to fight the life myself. Because I teach in the journey of my life. In Libya and Sudan, so it’s… You have to be yourself, not another person. I told them. Okay, they say. Okay, France and Germany. I don’t want… I told them. And they send me to Belgium. I think my assistant, when I was in Italy, she told me… They choose for you Belgium because of… You say, I speak a little bit English. So, in Belgium, English is, yeah… You can work by English. So, yeah, that’s why. I think she say like that. Yeah. If English they speak, it’s good for me. Yeah.
[i] And your sister, she is where?
[r] My sister?
[i] Yeah.
[r] She is with my mother.
[i] Ah, okay.
[r] Yeah.
[i] How old is she?
[r] She is 23 now.
[i] 23.
[r] Yeah, I’m older than her by two years.
[i] Yeah. And… Do you miss them?
[r] Too much.
[i] Yeah. It’s too much, when they don’t see them.
[i] You were very close with your sister?
[r] Yeah.
[i] Yeah?
[r] Mostly, she is beautiful. Yeah.
[i] But you call her?
[r] Yeah. She… Messenger. Connect. Yeah. It’s nice.
[i] She didn’t want to come?
[r] No. She… Because, yeah, it’s difficult to come here. Because if I have money, a lot of things to come here. Yeah. She need, but not a lot, you know? I want to come there. She didn’t say me like that. She always say just, when you are… when you come, she say, one day. But she didn’t told me to come here. She never told me. But for her, here is good, but it’s difficult. If I say her, she won’t come here. If I say, yeah, it’s difficult for me also to think about her and here. So, for the moment, she didn’t told me nothing. Maybe, yeah, in the future, if my life is change, I can ask her if she want here. For her, here is better. Yeah. But now I can’t do that.
[i] Is she happy for you?
[r] Yeah. Really.
[i] And your mother, is she happy for you?
[r] Yeah. Now, my life is good because my mother is happy because, yeah, she told me every day, when you are in Libya, I feel you are dead. I never see you in my eyes. I never listen your sound, I think. But now I’m happy you are alive and I listen your sound. Maybe, yeah, if God say one day, I can see you. So, I have hopes to see you, my child, she says. So, she was happy, too much happy.
[i] When you were in Libya, you could call?
[r] Sometimes, when you are first time coming, I should call the… you should give them the number of your family. So, I give them my mother’s number and they give her missed call and she call me and I told her everything. The situation, I know you don’t have money, but you know how to get money from person. You have to ask for me, you have to fight for me. I told her. And she say, yeah, my mother is strong because, yeah, she hurts and she spend her life in soldier. She know the bad situation, so she how to win them and she know everything and she give me hope. Don’t worry, my child. I can do it, I think. So, you have to be, don’t be hopeless, you have to be hope. I can try, she say, you guys with us, she say, yeah. Say, no, say like that. Only this. After, she connect with them, not with me. And when she pays, they come and they told me with your thing is all finished. I don’t know how much you paid. I don’t know how much they said.
[i] Do you think you were strong because of your mother?
[r] Yeah, that’s why I’m strong. My mother is strong. And she told me every day what she spent in her life. So when I listen to that, yeah, it’s real, but for me it’s like a movie or something. It’s like an American movie. In real, it’s not a movie. In real, yeah. So she’s strong, so yeah. She made me like her. She’s a good person.
[i] How old is she?
[r] Now, I think 48, 47.
[i] She’s young.
[r] Not young, she’s old. She’s not young. She’s not youngish. Yeah, I’m sure.
[i] And did it take a long time before you could come from Italy to Belgium?
[r] The time?
[i] Yeah, did you have to wait for a long time?
[r] No. I’m lucky. I wait two months and three weeks. But yeah, some people stay wait for one year, one, two years. They have to go through the process.
[i] And was it difficult to wait there?
[r] Yeah, because, yeah, always when you are human, you reach something and you need another thing. Always it’s happened. So yeah, when you are reaching Italy, we say thank you God. After you know about Italy and, you know, we wait for going another journey. So, yeah, you need to be fast. So, yeah, one year is difficult to stay there. Because, yeah, you are in Europe, so your friends, your family, they know you are in Europe, so they need something for you. So, but you don’t have nothing. You don’t have even paper. So, yeah, you need to be quick, your life to be beginning the new life, to be sure that you develop. So, yeah, one year is difficult. Six months is, yeah, it’s not, it’s not, yeah, long, but it’s difficult. For me, yeah, I’m lucky, yeah, I’m there two months and three weeks.
[i] But the situation was better than in Libya?
[r] Yeah, even, yeah, when I was in Augusta. I think Augusta, yeah, Augusta. It’s beautiful. If you want to live, it’s in Sicily, so it’s beautiful. But no work for us. They are rich, but for us it’s difficult to live there because nothing supports it.
[i] But they gave you food…
[r] Food, shoes, bed, everything. Like 1% what you need. The necessary things also you have.
[i] And it was not a prison?
[r] It’s not a prison. The first time we were coming there, she was an Italian girl. She’s the boss. She’s nice. [name] is her name. Her name is [name]. And one person is from Ghana. He works with her. And we are coming… 27 Eritreans from the beach. So at the time they told us, all of you know why you are here. So we give you a house to sleep. And tomorrow we give you shoes, clothes. And just you eat in the morning, in the afternoon and in the night. Yeah, they told us just you do medical checks, what you want. Just everything what humans needs they gonna do for us. And we have to wait for six months or… Already maybe six months. But maybe sometimes four months, three months. Like me two months and three weeks. Yeah, but they don’t told us you can go outside in the morning when we wake up. They are not Habesha. Habesha is our color, Eritrean and Ethiopian. But another African person, she call them black. We are black all, but yeah, we have a difference a little bit. So we don’t call for our skin black. We say Habesha, chocolate color. We say them black. So yeah, there are 30 blacks there. And when we are wake up, we meet them. We play with them football. In the middle of the day, I want to go outside. Only me. But I didn’t ask no one. And I see the door is open. No one told me nothing. So I’m going outside. I’m going outside when I’m back. The black boys, they say, why are you going outside? It’s not good. They say, why? You know, I stay in Libya one year, six months. Like this, bro. I want walk. It’s freedom. Why you say like that? You are not the boss here. You can’t ask them. Okay, let’s go, he say. I don’t know why he do this. We go in there and we ask her. Yeah, it’s kind, but when you are going, you have to tell us. Because we know you are out. Just you can’t go, yeah. Okay. Write my name. Now also I go. Because I miss walk, you know, long time walking. And yeah, after that, yeah, we all, always, yeah. We come to eat and sleep, but we go and yeah, we meet there. How the life we see. Yeah, and it’s so nice.
[i] So you could go in the city?
[r] Yeah, everywhere. In the beach you can go, you can go swim. Yeah, you go in the park. Everywhere you can go. So it’s nice.
[i] And how was it for you to be there? Could you see, were the people looking at you or?
[r] Yeah, the people, yeah, sometimes, you know, the racist is, yeah, everywhere. Some people, they say, you’re black. They say like that. For me, it’s not a matter. Because, yeah, maybe they don’t know nothing. Maybe they have something wrong. So maybe, yeah. So I don’t, I can’t decide why they say. Yeah, it’s, they won’t. I don’t care. If you ask me something, I can answer. But if you say, yeah, I don’t care, I’m gone. But for my friends, when they listen that, what? They say, because they don’t know the language. But when they see how them, their person’s face, they are angry to them. And they say, what the fuck? They say, don’t worry. We don’t live here, huh? We go. It’s not our country. I don’t know that. Yeah, but sometimes we meet good persons. And they want to, yeah. They want to speak with us. They want to know how we are coming. Even they don’t know our country. And they need to know. And my friends, they say, why they like asking? When I meet someone, he say, huh? He asking me, huh? No food? No water? Why they ask these things? I need drink. Beer, bro. Hmm? Why you ask me? He give me one beer, but he ask me a lot of things, bro. I bet he give me one beer only. Yeah, because you are not like them, bro. They want to know. That’s why. If they don’t know how they help you, bro. If they know you, if they can, if they have, yeah, they help you. But if they don’t know you, how they come help you, bro. You need help. I know? They have to know first, that’s why.
[i] Could you speak with the people? Because it’s a different language.
[r] Yes, it’s a different language, but I don’t know why. When I was in center in Belgium, he was my friend, he was from, I don’t know, the country, but the language is difficult, even the words are difficult. The country of language. But he is my friend, his name is Leo, he didn’t speak English, he didn’t speak English, we don’t listen the language together, but we are friends. We go on, we come to Antwerp together, we speak, but I don’t know why. What is the language name? But we walk together, yeah, we are friends. But we don’t know the language. We have sound, but I don’t know. If you want, if I want your friend, if you want my friend, language is not necessary, it should be in your heart. So in face you can, like animals, you know, animals, they know who is friend, who is not friend, so I just like that. And sometimes you need a little bit a new language.
[i] And how was it for you to come to Belgium, or to be the first time when you arrived in Belgium? You arrived in Brussels?
[r] In Brussels, yeah.
[i] You come by bus?
[r] From Italy? No, by plane.
[i] Yeah, they just brought you by plane.
[r] By plane, after I, when I came to the commissariat in Brussels, in bus, and when I was in the airport, I see the words in the sponsors, the banners, and like English a little bit, I had to speak English, I don’t know. I think when I was in the bus, the driver speak with one person, they speak French. What do you speak? I don’t know, I don’t know. What? What? What? I don’t know, because we don’t know. We are 36 children. We don’t know, we don’t care about the language, we need the people. Yeah, at the time we think about the people. When we were in the camp, it’s difficult moment for me. Because you think … Oh, if they give me what I want, oh my life. You think a lot of things. You don’t sleep much. And we meet there a lot of Afghans, Turkey, a lot of, yeah, white refugees. Whites also… We don’t know before, white people always we think rich. But when you see them, no. Why you are …? [interruption]
[i] Do you remember what you were saying? So you arrived in Brussels, and there were a lot of white refugees.
[r] Yeah, in the centre. When I was in the centre, a lot of refugees still live with us. It’s one room, and four persons. The bed is like, it’s two beds in one. So just one sleeps under, one is up. So when I was in the centre with my friend, he is from Eritrea, and two guys, one is from Afghanistan, the one is from Syria. And we meet them there.
[i] [Oh shit, I’m just thinking… oh no. Yeah, no, sorry, sorry.] Sorry. No, I was just thinking, like, I hope that there is a memory card. But I think it is because we saw the previous video.
[r] Yeah, yeah. And in the beginning we tried.
[i] I tried it. Yeah, okay.
[r] We played and…
[i] Yeah, we played it.
[r] Yeah. Yeah, let’s see.
[i] Yeah, I’ll check later, sorry. So now I forgot what you were saying.
[r] Yeah, I really forget it. Because I speak about the white refugees in the centre, and they told us just they stayed there for two years like that, without people. Yeah, they wait always for food, for a little bit money in the week, they give us seven euro. And they prepare the food always. So you are waiting for everything for another person. So for your mind, it’s not good. So when we listen that two years here, yeah, without people, yeah, and they give you or not? Maybe they give me negative. Ah, two years you stay and they give you negative. Oh, for me, you think for you. And now, two weeks. Three weeks. We always say like that. Yeah, but for us, for Eritrean, you know, they know everything. So it’s not takes a lot. Maybe it’s six months. But for me it takes four months and two weeks like that. And when I get the positive. Still now, I don’t have nothing stressed. Only hope for future.
[i] Were you happy when…
[r] When I get the people positive. I was happy. Yeah, everything is open. So I work to be good.
[i] Did you start to work in Brussels?
[r] No.
[i] You came to Antwerp first?
[r] Yeah, to Broechem, you know Broechem.
[i] Brugge.
[r] Brugge.
[i] Broechem?
[r] Broechem. Yeah, it’s from Bergem, it’s 30 minutes like that. When you go to Lille, it’s. .. Yeah, in the middle.
[i] And there was… You were working there?
[r] Yeah, when you are in camp, you clean the toilets, you change the plastic of the garbage, you clean the restaurants, you wash the tables, for eating. Yeah, you do something like this. But not too much money. It’s for one hour, it’s like one euro. But for you, with that seven euro, you can drink coffee, sometimes come to Antwerp. Yeah, because you can go, but you can’t sleep out. You have to sleep there, but you can’t go. When you are going, you have to give them the badge, because they know you are going outside. When you are back, they give you because you eat by that badge. Yeah, it’s in order. It’s… Yeah, Belgian people always order. Time to… It’s nice, yeah, for life.
[i] Do you like it?
[r] Yeah, I like it. Difficult for me, because I am from Africa. So… It’s difficult, but I have to do, yeah. Because I am here. So I have to learn it.
[i] It’s different in…
[r] Yeah, in our country, if I want to meet you, I call you today. You gonna meet? Yes. Okay. Afternoon. Not time. Afternoon. It’s afternoon. It’s one o’clock, or two o’clock, three o’clock. You don’t know. Only you wait him. Because you know he come. You don’t know the time. So, yeah, we have things. Even here, it’s the big problem is for us. We don’t know the language, so one person speak to us, and we know little bit. So just when he speak, we don’t understand, but it’s okay, he say. But we don’t understand, but he say, okay, okay. But you don’t understand what he say. . . Anyway, his birth, when he help the persons, they are coming to his house, and he told them, yeah, you do this and this, after this, this, this. They say, okay. After he’s gone, when he’s back, they didn’t do nothing. And he say, why he say okay to do this? You don’t tell me, he say. I told you, and he say, okay. Okay. And at times, also, okay. Only then, okay. Okay.
[i] So why don’t you say, I don’t understand?
[r] Yeah, it’s the problem. In our country, it’s more politely for persons. If, even in our country, if you are younger than me, I have to respect for you, even you are wrong.
[i] If you are younger?
[r] Yeah, I have to…
[i] If you are younger?
[r] I’m young of one person. Yes. He’s child. So, he respect me always. Even if I beat him, say, okay, sorry. He don’t have he didn’t do nothing mistake, but just I wanna do that.
[i] Because you are older.
[r] Yeah, and I do that. And he say, sorry, please. He didn’t do why. He didn’t ask. Even I’m young, so I have older than me someone. Even that, I have to respect. It’s bad. It’s not good. We grow up by this. So, we are coming here, even if you see in the street, in Europe, you can’t go it’s old, you can’t go like this. When the old man is going like this, you are coming by this way. Here, in our country, if he is here, you are here. If he cross this, no. You have to wait, because he is big. He have to go first. But here, yeah. But in our country, stop here. He say something for respect like that. And he say, thank you, my son. Thank you. That’s our country.
[i] Do you like that tradition?
[r] Yeah, we like it. Because it gives you more love and just for the situation in the country with the persons that contact, it’s good, you know. But for life, if you see, it’s not good. There are a lot of things you miss. Or a lot of things you want to do something, but you have to respect him, so you can’t do that. That’s a lot of problems. Yeah, but now, yeah. It’s the old generation, but now, yeah, they all change a little bit, you know. So, yeah.
[i] Are there other differences between Belgium and your country?
[r] A lot of big, big, big difference.
[i] Yeah?
[r] Even in school, in our growth, even, yeah, in the government, in the freedom. In food, even water. It’s a lot of difference, big, big difference. For example, in school, yeah, we are in school, just you think, yeah, I’m gonna be a soldier. In school, and they say, what you, what you will be when you grow up? The teacher ask you. You say, I don’t know. What? Because when I’m 15, I’m going to be a soldier, so just that’s I know. But they know the propaganda of the politics, and they say, don’t say like that. If you are a premier, the teacher say that. But they, in Belgium, when you are steady, something, the point to skip that is put. So you have to have that point to success. But in our country, they don’t have put a percent. But they say, number one is [name]. Number two is, you are in the class 15, 50 students. But they call three persons only. Good, yeah, good, good, good. So we are 50, they need three. So 47 is going soldier. Yeah, in your brain. So how I can be one of three, up to three of the 50? Hey, it’s difficult. So you think stress. You don’t like school. Yeah, too much things. But here, yeah. See, they give you support, a lot of support to have knowledge, to know something. So yeah, you grow up, you think a lot of things. So yeah, Yeah, it’s difficult, almost, to live there. But a lot of persons, they believe that it’s good and they live there. Because they don’t know. If you know, yeah, why? But if you don’t know, yeah, it’s good. You say that, because you know that only. It’s a big difference.
[i] And do you like to be here in Belgium? How do you feel about being here?
[r] Yeah, in Belgium, yeah, I like it. I like Belgium. Because, yeah, if you are working, if your life is good, if you have freedom, that’s what people need, yeah. Another thing, it’s building by your mind. What you want, what you will do, it’s for your mind. Yeah, you also, God has given me a second chance to live, so, in free land. So I just have to like it, it’s must, you know. Yeah, I like it.
[i] And now you are living in Antwerp, and you are working.
[r] Yeah.
[i] What kind of work do you do?
[r] I work with DCR. It’s in the road, working.
[i] And how long have you been working there?
[r] Almost, I’m new. It’s two weeks, like that, yeah. I begin now, because I was in school to Netherlands. I’m not perfect in Netherlands, but I begin to speak, yeah, a little bit. So I always work, my language grow up. Yeah, and just for future, I think it’s going to be good. Yeah. When I was in Italy, just I think, if I go in Italy, if I go in England, it’s good for me, because in England, it’s English, it’s not difficult for me. So just, I can fast my, I can bring my everything, hopes, fastly. But you know, in this country, I have to spend my time to know language first, after. Yeah. But yeah, I begin and just…
[i] Do you think it’s a difficult language? In Flemish?
[r] The first time, yeah, I say like that. That’s when I go to school, and just I do another things, like connection with the speak Netherlands people. And I was give training for football, for children. So just when I give them, just I speak English, but just when they speak Netherlands, I listen them, I understand what they want to say. So yeah, I grow up with the children a little bit, not more. For one month, I think, I give training. So, and I escape from 1.1 to 1.2. So when I was 1.2, it’s also they give me like a discussion group. It’s refugees, but they are in school, and they try to speak a little bit, and the assistants, they help us with necessary things, like for example, how to pay the electric and gas by email or by post. But they speak Netherlands, so you have to understand. Like that, yeah. Now I am between 2.1 And taking that, and I learn also the integration about Belgium in the program. Yeah, so I have this. So it’s not enough, but it’s the best.
[i] Are you happy that you … or how do you feel now that you are here in Belgium? And if you look back to long travel, because it almost took you two years to come to Belgium, how do you feel? Do you think it’s worth it?
[r] Not full. Not full of, you know. But yeah, it’s nice now in Belgium. But when I was in Ethiopia, I think Europe is everything you can reach what you want immediately. But it’s not like that. You have to think to yeah, it’s the big difference, so yeah. But it’s not bad. It’s for good.
[i] Do you think you would do it again? The travel? Now you know that if you would leave Ethiopia, and you would come to Belgium, but now you know first you have to do this travel for two years. Would you do it again?
[r] Never say never. Never. Even I don’t need another person to do this. Never. I don’t give advice to do this for no one, even for my if someone’s but for me, even for him I don’t need to be it’s difficult. You say it all the time. So you know everything. I can, I can’t think that, I can’t.
[i] Okay. I think we can still talk about a lot of things but I think maybe we just… Is there something else you want to say?
[r] Maybe if you want to ask me something, I don’t know. But yeah, I told you everything.
[i] Yeah. Something you want to say about Belgium or how about it is how it is to live here? Is it easy or difficult?
[r] In Belgium, it’s difficult. I know it’s difficult because if I say it’s good it’s for me, no? But I can decide for me only, no? I know a lot of Eritreans here live in Antwerp. So I just have connection with them. So, yeah. I know for them it’s very, very difficult. Very difficult. Even, yeah, I have friends for the girls it’s very, very difficult because some girls, they have a child but they don’t have a husband. Single mothers. And they don’t have knowledge. They don’t go to school before. They don’t know nothing. They don’t need to listen to the language. When you speak by Netherlands they say like that. So just, they don’t know the system how to get in the system. They need help always. But who help them? When I was in school, just I help one girl. She’s from Eritrea. She have a child. She’s 22, I think. But she have a child. And she’s, yeah, she don’t have a good mind, you know. She didn’t prepare for child. And she didn’t happy to have a child. So she have a lot of stresses. She have a lot of appointment but she miss. She don’t know what she must do here. And she always say my life is in Europe also bad. But I told her if they know, you have to think first. You have to know the language. And you have to connect with persons. After that it’s gonna be easy. But if you always thinking stressing it’s not gonna be change. Yeah, it’s the difficult thing is not Belgium problem. It’s the person. That’s, yeah, they need help. But who help them? Yeah, the Belgium help them a lot of things but they don’t know. If I won’t help you I have to know what your problem. But I don’t know your problem. I won’t help you but there is just I didn’t help you. I think I will help you but I’m not help you. Its difficult this moment in Antwerp. Even the boys … the boys here. It’s all about the language. Because they are they think we can’t. Speaking Netherlands? No. I can’t. I don’t want speak. Leave me out this language when they are drunk. I think. No friend. Because you don’t know. That’s why. If you don’t know the language that’s difficult. But when you know, yeah. When you are one year it’s very difficult. After one year it’s gonna be must because you listen a lot of times something you know. For the beginning it’s difficult but yeah. It’s not like Libya. It’s not like that but yeah. In this situation here I’m in Europe but I don’t have nothing. I still now I wait from or something. I didn’t do nothing for me. Yeah so yeah. You feel like you are not strong. You are not do nothing. Now also you need help. How I can be myself you think. So you feel bad.
[i] And where did you learn English?
[r] English it’s not by study. It’s when I listen music. I see movies I like American movies. And American music rap, play like that. Yeah when I was a child I like a lot of films. So when I was a child I see a lot of films. It’s not like cassette or CD. You wait for one movie one week. In one week you see one movie. In Saturday after the news in Ethiopia they show one movie from America. So I wait that movie. When I was child my father he say you sleep why you open? He’s not my father. He’s my mother’s husband now. So I just I’m child at that time. So he told me like that but I don’t care. I like it, you know. And I said my father because I’m child. He’s not my father but I have to say. Dad I don’t sleep. This movie is good. You don’t know about American films. I told him. Because when you see the life there in the movie with our life there and when I see movies when I was a child I see the child’s film like if you remember Kevin you know Kevin few movies he’s a boy and with his father and mother he lives but they are going on holidays. He’s by computers.
[i] Home Alone.
[r] Home Alone. When I was a child I see that movie so I like it. You know his mind is nice. So that’s why I you don’t have like that in our country but when I see that yeah he’s like me he’s human. I’m a child just I appreciate his mind. So I need to listen what he say. It’s my whole my want. So just when I see a lot of films I understand the language and I know some borders. I grew up still now I like American movies.
[i] And now here you can watch more movies.
[r] Yeah here sometimes with [name] we go to the cinema you know the I don’t know the street but near the beach the river the port Antwerpen. It’s a big
[i] Kinepolis.
[r] Kinepolis. I see movies sometimes with [name]. He invite me to go there sometimes.
[i] Okay that’s nice.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Yeah.
[r] This is how to come English. This is the my English not from school. That’s why I can’t speak sometimes when I speak English sometimes some words I left somewhere. I put some by symbol or something.
[i] But your English is good.
[r] Really?
[i] Yeah it’s good.
[r] Okay thank you. That’s why I have to study a little bit.
[i] Okay. And how do you imagine your future?
[r] I have a lot of hobbies. Yeah. I think I have to do them. So I have to follow them. How to get them. So at this time it’s difficult. Because I have nothing. I have to work. I have to have money, because I need to do them some materials. Because I like music. I’m DJ you know. Before. Not now. So I want to study DJ here a little bit because in Ethiopia I work by laptop in virtual DJ. Here you have the big DJ makers, mixers. So you have to learn that. It’s difficult because I don’t have a good movement because you have to have money. Here in Europe the necessary things for everything is money. So now how I get money. If you see you have to work. So I begin work. After one year or two years I don’t know if God say I can get my hobbies. I can sing. I can do I can play DJ. But my big hobbies to have a studio. Yeah.
[i] Music studio?
[r] Yeah. When I have it my life is I have all what I want.
[i] You want to record music?
[r] Yeah.
[i] For yourself?
[r] For me. If someone, yeah.
[i] Do you sing also?
[r] Never before but in my inside just I have. It’s healing. It’s healing.
[i] And what kind of music do you like?
[r] I like rap music because not have laws. Yeah. Rap music it doesn’t have a law. You can sing every what you want. The lyrics, the beats Mix every what you want. So just what I want to sing you know just in natural, in words in two things you know. Even it’s not politics but it’s in human’s heart. It’s the wrong and I’m not I don’t know a lot of things but if I feel inside just I can do it. A lot of things, I think. The world is changed by music. By art. If you see something just you can change. No one see that but you see. You feel it. If you have all of things what you want to do. So just I can say that just yeah. I hope I can sing with mind with situation the life. Yeah. It’s about to be good yeah. Not bad things. But also to be a good person. And just if you are in life your life is maybe not necessary for you. You don’t have features or something but you can live for another person. At that time you can feel happy. Sometimes people they made money but the money they don’t give them happiness. But if you do for persons who need help and you do for him and when he’s happy it’s not only he’s happy. Even you over him you are happy. You are happy. Because … because of you he feel happy. So that makes me like awesome.
[i] Are you happy now?
[r] Yeah. I wanna be happy. Because yeah. Happiness is in life. It’s yeah we’re dead tomorrow. So today you are stressed today. Tomorrow stress. Every day stress. We don’t do nothing for us. For someone we left. So what’s … the important thing you do in the in the life? Nothing. For you also nothing. You are not happy in your life. Even you didn’t make people happy. When they see you you are angry always. So if you are smiling they are smiling. So the good thing is happiness. Even you don’t have nothing. I feel that.
[i] It’s true. Okay. Thank you.
[r] You’re welcome.
[i] I’m gonna turn this off and I’m gonna hope that we have the movie.