SU_P_01

[i] Hello!
[r] Hello!
[i] Do you have an object that you would like to introduce to me?
[r] So, an object that is dear to my heart! I would say my mobile phone. My mobile phone is the object that is closest to my heart, for several reasons. The specific reason is the fact that it brings me closer to my country, which has been far from me for more than nine years, since I have been in France, living in France. Thanks to this mobile phone, I feel close to my country, my parents, my friends, everything that has been my life in Africa and particularly in my country of origin. So today, thanks to the telephone, I can be reached at any time and I can also reach my loved ones if I feel homesick or want to talk to people. So I think that, with life in Europe, the telephone takes us out of this isolation, that’s it, and out of loneliness.
[i] What brand of phone is it?
[r] It’s a basic phone. It’s a Samsung, so it’s the most common brand today. It’s a Samsung S, no it’s a Samsung 7 Edge.
[i] So can you introduce yourself?
[a] Introduce myself! I don’t know, well. I am… My civil name is [name of interviewee]. I am the eighth in my family of nine children. I just turned 35 on 8 August. I am the father of three children, two girls and a boy, who will soon be 13, 12 and 4 years old respectively.
[i] OK. So where are you originally from?
[r] I’m originally from Chad. It’s a country in central Africa. They say it’s the heart of Africa because we are, well… so I’m originally from Chad.
[i] Were you born there?
[a] Yes, I was born in Chad, I was born in Chad, in 1983. After Chad, it was following the events that Chad experienced in the late 70s, early 80s. Automatically, my parents went into exile, and that was that.
[i] Can you tell us under what circumstances you were born?
[r] So I was born at a time when Chad was somewhat divided. The southerners had left, that is to say people from the south after the civil war of 1979. Most of the southerners had withdrawn to the south of the country. As they withdrew, my parents, who lived in the capital, also withdrew. And at the same time my father, who had also started to become involved in the various organisations of the political movements, went into exile in West Africa in Cotonou, Benin, after I was born. And I spent a few… I’m… I started by walking and then we went into exile in Cameroon, Cameroon for a few months and then we ended up in Cotonou in Benin.
[i] Are you the only son or are there others?
[r] No, there were nine of us in the family, five girls and four boys. Now there are… With the situation in the country, all that, there are three boys left, of whom I am the youngest, and four girls.
[i] How long did you live in your country of origin?
[r] I lived in Chad intermittently. Because as I said, I was born in Chad and I started out walking in Cameroon. I left, I did my studies, at the beginning of my primary education in Benin. I came back… My parents came back to Chad in the mid-90s where I lived… I went back with my parents. I lived there from the 90s until 1995, when we left. My father was a diplomat, so we went to Bangui in the Central African Republic. I went to secondary school in Bangui. I came back again. I can say that I didn’t spend half my life in Chad.
[i] So you didn’t study there?
[a] Yes, I did, I studied in Chad.
[i] When?
[a] I studied, as I said earlier, from 90 to 95. I did part of my primary education in N’Djamena and then I left. I returned to Chad again, where I studied from third year to final year, also in Chad.
[i] Can you tell us about life at that time, in that country?
[r] At that time or during…?
[i] During the time you were there…
[r] It’s a country that you have to tell yourself that you love because for every Chadian, there is something special that attracts us, that draws us in, that is really close to our hearts, the love for this country, for this homeland. But it’s a country that you have to recognise is a tough country, a really tough country to live in. And as we say, jokingly, joking with friends, with many people, we say it’s our hell, we already experienced it in Chad. There is no question that if paradise exists, that Chadians will still experience hell because we all have to go to paradise. Because life is hard, the climate is hard, when it’s hot, it’s extremely hot. Right now, it’s the rainy season, and when it rains, it rains heavily, and when it’s cold, it’s also the cold of the harmattan, which is also excessive. So suddenly, everything is excessive in Chad. But we love it, we cherish this country deeply.
[i] Do you still have family there?
[a] Yes, I have family there. My mother still lives there because my father passed away a few years ago. My mother lives with my sisters, my nephews, one brother is there and the other is in France. I have a large part of my family there.
[i] Can you tell me a little about your family?
[r] My family is a special family, it’s like all families, there are moments of joy, there are moments of sadness. We bite each other, we argue and then we love each other again. But, everything is done like in my family, the [family name] family, in the [family name] family, we can eat each other, we can shout at each other, we can even go to the extreme of violence but it stays within the family. There is no question of someone from outside meddling in the family. And these are things that I miss because it is my family after all. I’m proud of it because I tell myself, my father had us, there are nine of us, but when my father died, when we counted, the children that my father had and the children that we had, our grandchildren, and when I see that today in Europe, from my father and my mother there are now more than 50 people. And that’s just something I’ve noticed. My family is special and I love it just the way it is.
[i] OK. Can you tell me when you arrived in France? I arrived in France at the end of 2009. So there you go, I arrived in France at the end of 2009.
[i] And under what circumstances?
[r] Under special circumstances because… I was forced to leave my country because of my political commitments, because I was in charge of the very first organisation, a federation of several youth associations that brought together young people from the north, the south, all that. And there were political commitments. So, for political reasons, I was forced to leave my country. Otherwise, it was my life that was threatened.
[i] What were the objectives of your organisation?
[r] It was… Can I name the association?
[i] Yes.
[r] It’s Camojet, the Collective of Associations and Movements of Young People in Chad, which aimed to unite Chadian youth and defend the interests of this youth against abuses of power and against the regime, which was… which wasn’t exactly a gift either. This association was created in 2003, and three years later, the first president of our association was killed by the police, who came to the house one evening to throw a grenade at him and he died. After that, I took over as head of the association. As he was dead, he was very close to us, I was very close to him, all that, and in the meantime I was his secretary general. I was the secretary general of the association. We held a general meeting where people wanted me to be president, I say in an honorary capacity, the organisation will no longer have a president, the title of president is reserved for the one who was killed. So we changed the title. Instead of having a president, Camojet will have a coordinator, so I was coordinator of Camojet from November 2006 until November 2009, when I left Chad.
[i] Did you have a job before leaving the country?
[i] Yes, I had a job. I did a lot of things like many Chadians when they finish their studies. Well… When you get your baccalaureate, you start… So I was a teacher, I taught French and… IT in secondary schools and colleges. And then I also worked as a communications manager, in charge of programmes and advertising at three radio stations. And then I also did… I was also communications and media manager at one of the big mobile phone companies in Chad.
[i] OK. Since you arrived in France, have you stayed in Paris or were you somewhere else before coming to Paris?
[r] No, I stayed in the Paris region. When I arrived in France, I lived in the Paris region for two years before moving to Paris, six or seven years ago now.
[i] Can you tell me about your time in France?
[r] Well… the time in France is the time of every immigrant, of every person who arrives in France. You already tell yourself that you have come with a diploma, experience or experiences that you have acquired in Africa, all that. But when you arrive in France, in my country, you’re little pashas, little bosses because there aren’t many of you. Let’s say that in Chad, which is where we are right now, there are less than 10 million inhabitants. So we’re little pashas, things like that, but when we come to a country like France, which has 65 million inhabitants, the level of education of the French is light years ahead of the Chadians, or of Africans in general. So when we arrive, we first have to fight to get our papers. When we manage to get the papers. I was lucky enough to end up in France and after two months I had the papers that people had been chasing for a long time. That’s because my papers were complete. So I got my papers in less than a month from OFRA, where I was granted refugee status with residence for ten years, renewable. It will expire soon, by the way. So there you go, I started by looking for a job to integrate in France because a lot of people think that once you have your papers, everything is easy. But it’s when you have your papers that the real… the real struggle begins. It’s about integrating, having a place to live, and before having a place to live, you need to have a job, and before having a job, you need to have a place to live. So all that, I did for three years, practically two or three years without a job before finding a first job and working.
[i] What are your expectations when you come to France?
Well, when I came to France, I didn’t come to live there. To this day, I’m not in France to live there, because my heart, my spirit, is still in my country because I was torn from my country. They tore me away from my country and when something is torn away, the pain remains. Whatever you do, the pain remains and for me, that pain has remained. For me, today in France, I only have protection, I only have… protection but my love remains in Chad. I could have been French ever since, because… like many other people, because as soon as you have refugee status, you have the opportunity to be French, to apply for French nationality, unconditionally. But I never applied for that because I believe that my place is not in France, my place is in my country.
[i] Is that the reason why you don’t apply for nationality?
[r] Yes, that’s the reason why I don’t apply for French nationality because I tell myself that France has already done a lot for me. It protects me, I have been able to… it protects my children, and that’s it! So, I think that it’s already a lot and French nationality for me… I am very grateful to France, I like France, I like French culture. I like… Today, I share a lot of things with the French, but I don’t see what use French nationality will be to me, as long as I work like the French. The only right I don’t have in France is the right to vote, but otherwise… my status gives me the same rights as the French except the right to vote. And I’m not interested in that, because if I have to vote, from what I can see, I’d rather not.
[i] OK. Can you tell us about your living environment in France?
[r] It’s the living environment of… of everyone, the living environment of… of any immigrant where we are lucky enough to belong to several families. Firstly, there is the family, the immigrants, but first and foremost our fellow Chadians. We also have the advantage of having other immigrants who also come from Africa with all their problems… because we all come in different ways, there are economic immigrants, climate immigrants today as it is… and all that, and also the French themselves. So we have this double opportunity to belong, to have a diverse and rainbow-like environment, unlike a French person who, for him, it may be… if he comes to Paris, it may be his French friends or others, whereas we have that, and we have… others. What’s more, what’s also great is that I also have… I arrived in France nine years ago, and part of my family is now French because I have a child who is French, half French, his mother is French. So that’s kind of the environment! And my environment is also about struggle, because I am very involved in politics. So it’s sharing with Chadian activist friends, African activists and activists of all stripes, even French activists. So my environment is characterised by the daily struggle.
[i] Okay. Do you have family in France?
[r] Yes, I have family in France, as I said, I am the father of three children. I have my own family, that is to say my two daughters who were born in Chad and whom I was able to bring here three years later… who… The eldest is at secondary school, the second is at primary school and the youngest I had with a French woman here. So, that’s my family already here. Apart from that, I have my older brother who came here as a student and stayed with… He has just finished his studies, but he also has a family. He has a wife with three children here too. So there you go… Apart from that, there are my cousins, there are my friends as we say, all the Chadian compatriots who are here, who are also my family and the big French family.
[i] How were your daughters able to join you in France?
[a] As far as refugee status is concerned, we are covered by the Geneva Convention and many other things in this convention, it is broad. Any refugee who is torn from his or her country and so on can benefit from the fast and streamlined system of family reunification in France. So my daughters, they are… I had arrived in France and when I had arrived in France, with the anger, with all those things, they were living with their mother. I wanted to apply for French nationality, and when I wanted to apply for French nationality, they said: ‘Yes, but sir, when you arrived, you declared that you had two children in Africa. First get your children here, because as you are here, if you apply for nationality, you will be granted it, your children will automatically be French, being in Chad, the best thing is, you can’t just apply for this nationality, as long as your children are not on French territory. So, I started the procedures to apply for family reunification to bring my children here so that I could apply for French nationality. And as soon as I started the procedures, what was it, after four months… after four months, I got the favourable response, my children arrived. And then when they arrived, my daughters, but I said, but there’s no point and I gave up on naturalisation.
[i] Okay. Did you study? In France?
[r] No! I didn’t study in France.
[i] Do you intend to continue your studies… in France, or where?
[i] Yes, because since I’ve been in France, I’ve already been working with the Academy of Paris in National Education for six years and I already have experience. And I tell myself, I’m not going to keep hoping to be a journalist, knowing that the reality in the field of journalism and communication is already very closed, it’s very exclusive when you’re not French or when you’re not… It’s all these reasons that I’m not going to mention. But I wouldn’t be able to have… So what can I do, as I’ve been working in the national education system for six years? I now need to make the most of that and find another training course so that I can continue, because my contract with the national education system is for six years. And I’m already in my fifth year.
[i] OK. Can you tell me about your work at the academy, at the level of the Ministry of Education?
[r] I’m an educational assistant. The education assistant is a job… we support the teachers, we are the interface between the pupils and the teachers and also their parents. That is to say, we look after the pupils when they are not in class with their teachers, we take care of their reception. We take care of… we help them with their homework, homework help and all that. So we are, even if it’s not allowed, we are the people they trust, ‘big brothers’ between the pupils’ claws [quotation marks]. So they open up to us more easily because a relationship is created between the teacher and… there is a relationship of distance, a distance between teachers and their pupils or students, whereas we are in the middle. So we get closer to the pupils because we often take them in small groups. The teachers don’t have the time, the teachers might take 30 of them, but sometimes we deal with two or three pupils, we manage them directly like that so there you go, that’s a bit of the work I do with young people. So it’s very, very, very, very rewarding and it’s really good. I’ve had the chance to work in many areas of Paris, which has allowed me to learn about the different problems, ranging from what people used to call ZEPs: Priority Education Zones, which later became REPs. And the simple establishments as well, which are, for example, in the 16th arrondissement. I worked for a long time in the REPs and last year I worked in the 16th arrondissement. I came to realise that there are things that people in their office set up but don’t know about these realities. These young people who are in the … they are not from the same background.
[i] So what are these realities that you’re talking about?
[r] You have to recognise it, you have to realise that in France what Manuel Valls has called twice, he said twice in his speech, and people didn’t appreciate it, he was talking about apartheid. The apartheid of social classes in France does exist. It also exists in the field of national education. People think that children who live in working class neighbourhoods, such as the 18th arrondissement and others, are losers and so on. No, it’s simply because these kids are very lovable and very polite, contrary to what people think. They are tough but polite because these children develop what is called a shell, because of everything they experience, the absence of their parents. But it must be recognised that all parents in France are absent in relation to their children. Because people work a lot. The parents of children in the 18th arrondissement are absent because the parents are busy running around looking after them. For the most part, they are the children of immigrants. Whereas the children who are in the 18th are the children, it is the parents of the children who are in the difficult neighbourhoods who look after them. Those who are in the working-class neighbourhoods do not have time to look after their children because they look after the children of those who are in the wealthy neighbourhoods. I mean the 16th, I mean part of the 17th, the 8th arrondissement, all those things, the rich neighbourhoods. So they don’t have time to look after their children, while the rich work to earn money and pay people to look after their children. So you see, it’s a mixture, it’s a bit of a circle. As a result, parents who are in the rich neighbourhoods, they have children who are… spoilt. To make up for their absence, the children of the rich, to make up for their absence, the fact that they are not present for their children, well, they respond to their children, to all their children’s needs. That is to say, they give them what they want. The kids, they’re 14, they smoke cigarettes as much as they want, they have the latest phones. They have video games that are even labelled, not suitable for under 16s, but children aged 10 or 11 have them. Because parents, in order not to say ‘no’ to their children, respond in this way. Now those who are in difficult neighbourhoods, the parents being absent because they work for them, they don’t have the means to give them everything these children want, games and so on. For them, as soon as they get home and their children ask them for things or the children do something naughty, they get angry, because they have spent all their time working, putting up with the whims and rudeness, the arrogance of the other children and they come home, their children ask them for things but they don’t have time, and sometimes they use the same techniques as at home. That is to say: ‘well, listen to me, I’ll take care of you, I’ll be the one who… I’ll work really hard, I’ll do all that and you do that.’ Well, what is it, it’s correcting the child, it’s hitting him and it’s depriving him of a lot of things. So, the children from difficult neighbourhoods see all adults as a danger, see all adults as a threat. So when they come… when they come to school, the teachers are not prepared to see this side of things. So they think that these children behave rudely towards them, that these children are arrogant, that these children say… Well, not arrogant, but these children are harsh with their words. They might say: ‘You’re nuts!’ So that’s the term, it’s ‘You’re crazy!’ So the teachers don’t have time for that, the teachers find it difficult to judge them, because they don’t know what these children experience at home. And so it makes the system in France complicated. And the worst thing is that the children are not mixed. People are categorised and ghettoised in certain areas. So that means the children of the poor, because it’s not… not all the neighbourhoods of Paris are accessible to everyone. So the children of the poor live among themselves. So the parents are not there. When the parents are at work, the children of the poor are forced to be on the stairs, in the parks, playing with each other. They develop this resourcefulness technique. What does this technique consist of? Their elders push them to sell drugs, to do things that are not appropriate, that children should not do, but these children, it’s because the parents are not there for them. There is no one there for them. Unlike those in the wealthy neighbourhoods, there are the workers who are there to look after them and the other children are left to their sad fate, when they are not at school, they are in the street. And when they are in the street and for the most part from… all they want is to be 16 and leave school. Because for them, school is something that doesn’t suit them. At the same time, there’s also this way of arriving in 4th grade, these children are pushed towards an exit towards vocational training. Whereas these children all have dreams, because nobody dreams of being a plumber, nobody dreams of being a garbage collector. But they become what they are because they have no choice. These children are pushed into becoming plumbers and garbage collectors, even though, at the beginning, they all dream of becoming lawyers and journalists, they all dream of being… But they don’t have that chance, because they live among themselves, so they develop techniques and that’s how it is. In any case, I say that when you put Arab children together, they think in Arabic and they think in Islam. When you put Jewish children together, they think in Jewish and they think in the interests of Jews. So for me, the best republic is perhaps the one that breaks down the communities. I’ll give an example that may frustrate people who are about to see it, but having a Jewish school is for the education of Jewish children and its children will only be able to think in the interests of Jews. Whereas if there is no community school, no Islamic school, no Jewish school, people will be mixed. It’s like today Henri IV in Paris, where the elites are sent, that is to say the children who all have averages of 17, they go to Henri IV in the 5th arrondissement. So it’s only geniuses that they send there. In that case, they’re just sending empty barrels, losers, to other sectors. So these are the kind of things that I had to be in the national education system to see. And when I was in the 16th, last year, I discovered this, I understood this, and the worst thing that people don’t know is that the children who are in the schools in working-class neighbourhoods don’t smoke and don’t have the money to smoke cigarettes and don’t have the money to buy drugs. They sell the drugs but they don’t smoke them. They don’t use them. So who uses them? It’s all the rich kids in the 16th arrondissement because I’ve seen it there, I spent four years in the 18th but I’ve never seen such aggression. But the first week I spent in the 16th, I saw children, year 8 pupils, holding year 10 pupils at knifepoint to steal their phones and stuff like that. I left, I told the head teacher, I said: ‘Now, you tell me that the other neighbourhoods, you call the other neighbourhoods, you call them ZEP and REP, but the real thugs are in these neighbourhoods. She said to me: ‘[name of interviewee], you know, it’s true, but if we call the police, the police won’t come and we don’t want to have a bad image.’
[i] Did you have any particular difficulties during your training or in the establishments where you trained?
[r] Any particular difficulties! No… no, not especially! Not especially, it’s just that last year I spent a year in the 16th arrondissement, and I said no it’s not for me because no, I’m not a person who keeps quiet. I open my mouth a lot but when you come up against the arrogance of the… of the parents in the 16th because of the arrogance of the parents… because the kids are adorable… But it’s the parents, all that… so I say it’s not for me. That’s why many teachers, many people in the national education sector refuse to go to neighbourhoods like the 16th, and others.
[i] Okay. Can you tell us about your daily life outside of work?
[r] Outside of work, when I’m not at work, I’m at home looking after my two daughters. And when the boy is also here, I look after my children. Otherwise, I also see my friends from time to time to chat, to decompress a little too, rather than staying cooped up here. Otherwise, it’s also the social networks that allow me to be very close to my country, to be able to get the message across, also to get information across because those who are at home can’t do it. So they go through me or through other people to be able to get the information across. That’s it!
[i] Do you have any other cultural or sporting activities?
[r] Yes, I go to the cinema a lot, I go to the cinema a lot. I have a season ticket, so I go to the cinema often. So at least every Wednesday, I go out on Wednesdays when the films are on. Otherwise, I also do indoor sports. I have a subscription to a gym, which is what everyone does these days, because, well, I also have a subscription to that. I also travel a lot as part of my political activism, which also allows us to travel, attend certain meetings and conferences, and even initiate advocacy with politicians and decision-makers around the world.
[i] Can you tell us a little bit about these activities?
Well, I work with a Dutch NGO in the Netherlands called ‘Voice for Thought’, run by Professor Myriam. So, I work with her in the African Studies department. She is a professor there. So, every year, she organises… they organise a festival that gives a voice to activists and committed artists who come to express themselves. It’s about how to reconcile art and political commitment because many artists are politically committed. So we give them the opportunity to express their art through their voice and through what they usually do. So it’s a meeting between the academy, academic intellect and art. So that’s what it’s about! I also travel to other countries to meet with the authorities and also to plead the case of our country, my country, Chad. This has led me twice this year to the United States to meet with American authorities, an American senator and the State Department. Unfortunately, this is not possible for us in France because, for reasons that cannot be explained here, the French authorities give us asylum but pay us no attention. It’s as if they are happy for us to stay here doing nothing and return to our country one day.
[i] What was the trip to the United States about?
[r] The trip to the United States was to meet with the American authorities and make a plea about the Chadian political situation. So we went to meet some American senators, to whom we talked about the situation in our country, and also American MPs, about Chad and the current situation in Chad, which is untenable. So that’s it, in relation to that. And also to try to develop new partnerships with other horizons than… than with France, which seems to be very, very close to the regime in power in Chad.
[i] Do you work with a particular organisation in France or an association of French immigrants?
[r] No, not at first. At first I worked with the association Survie and then I preferred not to be directly linked to French associations and NGOs. Because being linked to these French associations and NGOs means being a bit compartmentalised and monitored… because being compartmentalised and monitored means following their directives rather than being independent and expressing myself freely. Because some of these NGOs and associations, whether we like it or not, are funded by the state, the French state. So there you go, for me, I don’t want to be told what to do.
[i] Okay. Can you tell me about your relationships with your entourage, the neighbours, your community at the moment?
[r] I don’t have any relationship with the neighbours, so I don’t have any particular relationship. I don’t know… what brings us together, maybe sometimes, is… I don’t know if I’ve taken the lift ten times with a neighbour in the last five or ten years. No, no, no, I don’t do that, so there you go! Then there are neighbours’ parties, there are things like that, but I’ve never been interested in that. It’s not that I don’t want to, it’s just that…. I’m willing to give it a try one day, take my bottle, go and knock on the neighbour’s door to offer it to them, but well, it’s… I don’t know, but…
[i] Because there is the neighbours’ party, have you ever been invited to this party, to share a drink or have a chat?
[r] No, no! Yet they say that neighbours are the closest people, closer than relatives. The first to intervene in case of problems, and is that the case in France? I don’t know. I’ve never been on that ground with the neighbours yet.
[i] Are contacts difficult or does everyone stay at home?
[r] Yes, but not in the new flat I’m in! It hasn’t happened there, but I know that five or six years ago when I was in the Paris region, there was a neighbour who often… he was right opposite, we were on the ground floor and… every time, they had a baby, they would fight. He and his wife would fight very often. And it bothered me to see that they were fighting all the time, and there was a baby. So, I was angry one day, I went to see him and I said, ‘You have to at least respect the baby. You’re doing that in front of the baby, it’s not right.’ He wasn’t, he wasn’t happy, then I invited him, as he was having an argument with his wife, I invited him, I said to him, “Come and have a beer with me.”
[i] Did he come?
[r] Yes, he came, he had a beer with me. I gave him a bottle of beer, we shared it. We drank the beer. Afterwards I spoke to him, I said, ‘Well, look, I think it’s your problem, I don’t need to know what’s going on, but I just don’t want you to fight in front of your child because then you’re already teaching him violence.’
[i] Okay. What are the relationships like in your community in France, the African community, the Chadian community?
[a] Well, yes, I have very good relations and I have… people I see regularly with whom I chat, have a drink, share things. There are also fellow wrestlers, activists too, with whom we often organise demonstrations because we are linked by an association or organisation. But I always have this problem, that is to say, I’m rather… I’ll say it when I’m asked to define myself a little politically. I’d say I’m rather a democrat, socialist and anarchist. So associations and internal regulations are two different things for me.
[i] Why anarchist?
[r] Not really totally anarchist, but I think that rules have always been made to frustrate certain people. Rules are not for everyone. The person who draws up the regulations and statutes tailors them to himself. So there you go, it’s like the judge who makes everyone stand up when he enters the room. And if we don’t get up but he’s the one judging us, condemning us. We don’t have to get up. That’s why I don’t want to go to court. I’m sitting down, but why am I going to be told it’s court and then I have to get up. Who wrote this rule? These are things, which is why I say to myself that being part of an association is fine, but after being told that yes, you have to do this, you have to do that, no, I want to do it when I want. I want to do things when I want, without hurting other people, but I want to do things when I want.
[i] Okay. Are you involved in the life of your city? In the different cities you’ve been to or the different districts…?
[r] No, I’m not, I’m not involved at all. I’m not involved and the only way for me to be involved is not to destroy what they’ve done.
[i] OK. Now can you tell me about the major events that made an impression on you when you arrived in France, or in Paris or wherever in France you went, were there any major events, key moments?
[r] A major moment was when I became a volunteer for Secours Populaire in 2010, when we welcomed more than 40,000 children from 25 European countries. That was an event that made an impression on me. But how did it happen? I had just been watching the adverts where the children were talking about it, and then at the beginning of the school year, there were two who were telling each other how they had spent their holidays? One said, ‘Oh yes, my holidays, I was at the beach with my parents’, the other said, ‘I went to such-and-such a town.’ And there was one who was standing next to them, looking sad. He was listening to them and looking sad because he hadn’t done anything during the holidays. After that, Secours Populaire launched this appeal to organise holidays for young people. That touched me. I was a volunteer, so it touched me to meet young people from 25 countries, forty thousand children, to be their tour guide in Paris. We each had seven children. We had to show them Paris, take boats with them. That was an event that really made an impression on me. The second event was the election of François Hollande, the election of François Hollande which for many, many, many immigrants, especially Africans, was a ‘phew, finally’, la Françafrique! Finally, France has just had someone who is going to cut ties with its heads of state. And we all dreamed of the departure of these African heads of state. That’s why when we met on the night of 6 May 2012 at the Bastille, there were only African flags flying, African flags flying. There had been debates about it. It was as if it were the election of the President of the African Union. Unfortunately, we were… We were very quickly disillusioned because this guy said, ‘If I am elected President, I will not receive any African dictators at the Elysée.’ It was part of his ‘me, president’ thing, but less than a month later, he rolled out the red carpet for all the heads of state, dictators at that, African ones! So the event for me was a landmark event, the night of 6 May, the vote of no confidence in Nicolas Sarkozy. The second landmark event…
[i] The third!
[r] Yes! The third is the birth of my son. It was a significant event for me and the last one has just happened a few ….
[i] Can you tell me about the birth of your son? Who is his mother?
[r] His mother is this …
[i] What are the circumstances?
[r] Well! During a trip to Africa, we met her mother in Casablanca because she was going to Cameroon for a training course with one of her friends. There were six of them, young French girls. Five of them were in an orphanage that… it was a friend of mine, my best friend from Cameroon, who was… it was her organisation. Except for the mother of my son, who was in another orphanage in Yaoundé. My friend said to me: ‘Well, listen! You’re taking the same flight as some French girls who are coming to do their internship with us.’ So I met them in Casablanca, we took the same flight. So we just went for it, and I went out with the only one who wasn’t… We met in Yaoundé. We crossed paths in Casablanca. We went out together in Yaoundé for a few weeks. And I had only gone for two weeks; I was supposed to go back to France. She stopped her internship to come back to France with me. She’s from Bordeaux.
[i] She’s French?
Yes, she is French and she moved to Paris with me. We stayed, we had our son. First of all, we had decided to have a child. The first pregnancy didn’t work out, but the second one did. We had him on 26 January 2014, we had a little boy, Noah! So there you go, and it was something that gave me great pleasure because we had decided to have a child, and he arrived. Today he is a very adorable child. Unlike my other children, I haven’t seen them in relation to Chadian culture and also the fact that I came to France, I didn’t participate in every stage of their birth, whereas when Noah’s mother was pregnant, we went to the hospital for the ultrasound. I still remember the first poem I wrote for him. I went, it was my first time to go to the ultrasound, to see a woman. Well, there you go, I saw that. Every exam or medical visit she had, I was always there until the birth. I was there on the day of the birth too. So she ended up having to do that. So this relationship remained a bit special compared to what I didn’t have with girls because we weren’t there, we didn’t take it for granted in the culture of my country… It’s the women who take care of their pregnancy on their own. We may give money, but that’s it, so that’s kind of it. That was an important event, and then the last one was the World Cup. The 2018 World Cup was very special because for once, we saw the France from below lift the France from above. Because in the eyes of those children who made the whole of France dream, I saw my pupils in the tough neighbourhoods. I saw in Matudi’s eyes, a Lamine Bâ! I saw in Pogba’s eyes, another Ibrahim. I saw in their eyes, all those young people who are not respected because they come from immigrant backgrounds. All they have is football, all they have is football. France, despite all the politics, everything it has done or everything it is doing internationally, never would we have heard so much talk about France and in such an envious way as this year. The whole world talked about it! The whole world talked about it, thanks to these children from immigrant backgrounds, we even had fun counting the origin of each child. And these children made France dream. They didn’t just make France dream, they made France’s dream come true. So that was an event. For me, I didn’t feel like an immigrant, but on that day it seemed as if throughout France the word immigrant disappeared from all the books and all the… all the dictionaries. And the French state even used it to run campaigns saying: ‘I, as a French person, am proud to be French, I am proud to be blue’, but it shouldn’t just be about that. It has to evolve, people’s attitudes have to evolve. Every French person, immigrant or not, has added value, brings something important to this republic and that is what makes this country beautiful and charming. When we say, South Africa is the country, the rainbow nation… Oh no, South Africa can’t be the rainbow nation any more than France can, because France really is the rainbow nation! Instead, the French authorities need to develop this aspect because in France there are Indians and there are Blacks. I’ll tell you what: you’ll find black people in the working-class neighbourhoods, in the 18th, 19th and 20th arrondissements. You’ll find Asians, Chinese, Vietnamese and Japanese people in the 13th arrondissement around Olympiades [metro station] and even in Aubervilliers in the 93rd, you’ll find them there. The Arabs are in Barbès, in the 18th arrondissement. The Jews are in many areas, even in Corentin Cariou, Stalingrad, Créteil, around Créteil Lac. You can find… Well, the French are no longer in Paris. You can find the Indians around République with all their shops, with everything they have there. You also find Romanians everywhere. So, in other words, France is the rainbow nation. Unlike South Africa. Who do you find there? Blacks, Indians and whites. Whereas in France, we have more than that, so it is France that should claim to be a rainbow nation. And that is what should make France strong. Saying that, yes, we are the rainbow nation, but not waiting during the election period or for a certain period of time, bludgeoning people, saying that you are worthless, you do nothing. The first time I took line 13, I was super, super… astonished and I even wrote a little text about it. I saw, I took line 13, I might ask all the people who watch… who will watch this video to try to take line 13 one day at 5am, to take it from Basilic Saint-Denis and you will see, that is to say in the morning, who are on this line 13, there. You’ll see old Malian and Senegalese women with their elderly relatives. You’ll see Romanians, you’ll see Arabs. At 5 o’clock in the morning, I took this, I thought, but where are they going? I asked myself that question. You see, it was the yoyos, the noises of these women, it reminded me of African markets. These women don’t speak French. And where are these women and men going? They’re going to work. Where are they going to work? They’re going to work as babysitters, as I said earlier, for the children of the rich, to allow the rich to go to the office. They’re going to clean the offices before we come to the office, we find the offices clean, but who cleaned them? Do the French, do the people who work in offices wonder who cleans the offices? These women open the toilets, open the restaurants when we go to McDonald’s. It’s these women and these immigrants who do all that. I saw that, I said, all it would take is for these people to decide one day to go on a one-day strike and everyone who talks about immigration will understand. Because you will come to the office and you will find all your desks dirty, because you have made a mess of the office and you haven’t tidied up before leaving in the evening. You will find the toilets dirty. You won’t be able to go to work because so-and-so hasn’t come to pick up or look after your child. The buses won’t be able to leave because the buses are dirty. The underground trains won’t be able to leave. So they will understand the importance of every citizen or every person living in France.
[i] All right. Can you tell me what your perception of Paris is, in a fairly general way, of France?
[r] I think it’s… Paris is Paris, it’s magic! Paris is magic! You can hate it so much, hate the French so much, but Paris is still magic. It’s a special city. It’s a city with a history. It’s special, it has something, as they say, Paris is the city even if the Parisians are uptight but the tourists, the immigrants make Paris magic. To go out and meet people, to talk, in all languages, to go out with my locks and for someone who doesn’t know me to come and speak Wolof to me because I’m Senegalese, and to go somewhere else, people will take me for someone from the Caribbean, it’s magic! So that’s Paris for me, and France is a very beautiful country if you took the politicians away. It’s a very beautiful country. The French people are very open, welcoming people without these politicians. That’s what we don’t understand. When I talk to Africans who say, ‘We hate the French, we hate the French,’ I say, ‘Because you don’t know the French.’ The French in the countryside don’t give a damn, they don’t even know what’s going on in other countries. They don’t even know what Africa is, they don’t even know what’s going on in your countries. They are also victims of the media, they are victims of politicians. What the…? The French are not Bolloré! The French are not Total! The French are not Bouygues! The French are not… I don’t know… Arnaud Lagardère! The French are not Dassault! The French are those people, that family in the village who don’t even know what Africa is called, but who write a cheque to Unicef every month to fight hunger. It’s that family who know nothing at all, but that family of pensioners who make donations to organisations every week. It’s not much, but when you add it all up, giving six euros, seven euros to an association is already a lot. They are the ones who are really French, who do wonderful things. I say, I’m an immigrant, every time I go out, I see it, at the metro exit, the young people who are there calling out, recruiting people to make contributions. But no black immigrants, I haven’t seen a black person stay and chat with them. Because when you talk, ‘Oh no, I’m in a hurry, I’m leaving!’. But who do they recruit? It’s those old people, those French people who do it. But the immigrants themselves, who have arrived here and succeeded, don’t do it. I’m sorry, I did it for the first time just seven or eight months ago, no last year, it was last year. I realised that it’s nothing to give up six or seven euros a month. I did it for two NGOs. And you see, that’s the beauty of France, and that’s what we call the solidarity of France that people don’t understand. When you’re far away, you don’t understand. You can’t trust political France and the France of Joan of Arc.
[i] OK. You mentioned political France. Can you tell us how you see social issues in France, in a fairly general way?
Well, the social issue is that the French people are fighting the same fight as the Chadian people, the same fight as the Haitian people, the same fight as the people… It’s just that the people at the top are simply… dressed up differently. We have the same dictators in Chad as the French have here in France. They have the same robbers. They have the same thieves, but they do it in a different, more intelligent way. Each ruler uses the means at his disposal and knows his limits in relation to the open-mindedness of his people. In Africa, if the dictator kills, it is because death is trivialised there. Otherwise, if death was trivialised in France, Macron would have done the same thing, Hollande would have done the same thing, Sarkozy would have done the same thing. But it’s because, here, death… well, human life, it counts. And if in countries where there are dictators, people were already able to consider themselves, to respect themselves, I think that the dictators wouldn’t touch them. How do you kill people in France today? Through the economy, through taxes. That’s the real problem. So when will people understand who installed Bolloré? Who installed Hollande? Who installed Macron? They will also understand that the same people who installed them are the ones who installed and continue to install dictators in other countries. I think that when people come to understand this way of seeing things, this is where immigration will stop, this is where the social question will stop. Because, we say that France is a country where social law is respected and so on, but it is not true. Social law is respected in France, but you have to ask yourself how much VAT we pay for everything in France. We pay 20% VAT, unlike in the United States where it is 6%. There is no social security, but you have to just count the VAT. With the 14% VAT paid, we will get to what we pay in France compared to what the Americans have on the other side. Let’s imagine that we pay 20% VAT on everything we pay for in France. If we removed that 20% VAT, we wouldn’t get sick every day. If I have to go to McDonald’s, I have to pay 20%, if I have to take public transport, I have to pay 20% more. It’s our money that they take and give back to us, it’s the same thing. It’s like in the United States, there’s no VAT, there’s no social security or other benefits, but on the other hand when Americans pay their taxes at the end of the year, it’s called a ‘refund’, they get their money back. They get it back… Some people end up with 6,000 dollars a year. Others, if you have two or three children, can end up with fifteen or twenty thousand dollars. Does the aid given to families in France, or to people in France, to individuals in France, amount to five thousand dollars a year? If you have to count, if only for transport, if you have to count for example, for each family in France, each child for example, for two children that I have in France, I receive a hundred euros for two children. That’s 3000 and something per year. But if you go to the United States, you get 12,000 euros. You have to look at that difference. You shouldn’t think that social services are well developed in France. No, all these politicians and others are thinking about how… nothing is free. Nothing is free. As they say, immigration costs France, but never! Immigration costs France… four years ago, immigration cost France 34 billion and some. But now how much does immigration bring into France? Four years ago, immigration brought 67 billion into France. So you take 34 billion out of 67 billion, where does it go? Immigration actually brings in money for France.
[i] Can you tell me a little about healthcare coverage?
[r] In terms of healthcare, the coverage, currently in relation to my income and the fact that I have my children, my expenses, so I have 100% coverage in France.
[i] So, we are going to address other questions, to see if you have been naturalised, what are your intentions? Do you intend to live in France for a long time or reconnect with your country of origin or return home or…?
[r] As I said, today part of my family is French, part is… I’m still Chadian so I don’t have… I don’t dream of staying in France, living in France forever. I’m going to go back to Chad, but I can’t say when.
[i] Have you always maintained relations with your country of origin, your family, your friends?
[r] Yes, my family, my friends and many people who don’t know me but who know me through my political commitment.
[i] Mr [name of interviewee], we have covered almost all the questions, is there anything to add or anything we have failed to mention?
[r] Life is beautiful! You just have to know how to enjoy every moment, to enjoy the present. And above all, not to back down in the face of the truth, and in the face of your convictions. I love life. For me, even if I say that I would like to go back to my country one day, I don’t know where our country is. It’s where we live. It’s where we feel safe. It’s where we feel good. For the moment, Chad is still my country of origin, but France is also my country, where I live, work and pay taxes. I like this country and that’s it and as I say, the world just needs to see that our differences shouldn’t be what separate us, but rather that our differences should be assets, should be what unite us.
[i] And how do you see the future of your three children in this world?
[a] Well! For the moment, I think the only thing I’m doing is fighting for their safety and health, and they’ll make their own choices for the rest. They’ll make their own life choices, and I’ll just remove any obstacles that might come their way as far as I’m able. The rest is up to them.
[i] Apart from the education they receive at school, what kind of education do you give them at home? African? French? Or a mixture of the two?
[r] It’s a mixture of the two! And I want them to have a universal education.
[i] Meaning?
[r] It’s not just about seeing themselves as French, but one day they have to see themselves as Indians, as Japanese, as Chinese, as Chadians, as Malians, as Senegalese. Because for me, racism is ignorance of the other! When you know the other, there’s no need to be racist!
[i] OK. Thank you. Is there a final word that summarises all these thoughts?
[r] Let’s just be positive and move forward. [laughs]
[i] Thank you! Thank you for taking part in this questionnaire. We’ll see you again soon for other things.
[r] Thank you!