SU_A_29

[i] Hello.
[r] Hello.
[i] Welcome. Can you tell us what your name is?
[r] My name is [name].
[i] [name] [name], where did you come from?
[r] I come from Somalia. So I’m from Somalia.
[i] You come from Somalia. Okay. Where in Somalia do you live, do you used to live?
[r] I was born in Baidoa. It’s the capital of Southwest Somalia. And I grew up there. So yeah, that is where I used to live.
[i] Okay. Can you also say who your parents are?
[r] Yes, my father is dead, but his name was [name]. And my mother’s name is [name].
[i] How many siblings do you have?
[r] I have two siblings. One sister and brother.
[i] Do they also live in Somalia or are they also in Belgium?
[r] No, actually one of them now, I found out that he lives somewhere in North America. And my sister lives in Somalia with my mom.
[i] With your mom. So they are still back in Somalia. Okay, you are the only one here who is here.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And when did you… how long is it ago that you saw your sister or your mother or your brother?
[r] The last time that I saw my mom was when actually I was living in Somalia. And that was 2015, end of February somewhere.
[i] It was hard for you to leave them behind? Or how did you feel when you have to go?
[r] Yeah, it always feels bad to leave your family. Especially when you lived with them all your lifetime. So, yeah, it was actually very hard. But I had to do that, so I had no other choice.
[i] So… How old are you now?
[r] Yeah, I’m 27 now.
[i] 27. So, did you went to school in Somalia?
[r] Yes, I went to Baidoa Model School in Baidoa.
[i] Okay, so you… how many years have you been there to school?
[r] Yeah, I was in school actually from 2003 till 2010.
[i] Okay.
[r] Yeah.
[i] So, what kind of… did you get in the school? What kind of… what did they teach you in the school? Like…
[r] Yeah, actually it’s like a normal school. So, it’s not… It’s like the system that we had in there. So, that you go first elementary and primary and then secondary. So, it was just like that.
[i] The same as in Belgium?
[r] I cannot say that the same system, but it’s actually… It went like that way, like three years or four years of time. It’s primary and then you go to intermediate and then you go to secondary. So, it was like that.
[i] Okay. So, did you have a lot of friends back home?
[r] Yes. I had… I had a… I had a… Not a lot, but I had friends.
[i] I had friends.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Okay. And like… What did you… In your… In your free time or when you want to go somewhere, what kind of things you used to do with your friends?
[r] I was… I was still a fan of football games. So, we used to play football and we used to watch football together and sometimes also we used to do fitness. Just like a place that we arranged like in a fitness place. So, and everything was there. There is… One was made by us and it was like a cement or something that we made. So, yeah. It was a handmade fitness. So…
[i] Handmade?
[r] Yeah.
[i] All right. So, creative. So, they didn’t have a place where you can go for example like basic fit here, where you can go. Where you can do your fitness.
[r] No. So, you have to make your own.
[r] No, at the time that we started, now that I’m here, I heard from the news sometimes or even I still have some friends that we can chat on internet. So, when I ask them now like that they have a fitness there, then they tell me that yes, they. .. It’s not as quite good as the fitness around here. But they have better one, that we had at that time. So, at that time there were no fitness places. So, just we used to see it from the television or somewhere where we watch it. And then, yeah. Just we created just like that. And I even saw that from Ethiopian troops who lived in… Who are still there. I think some of them. Just to help with the safety for Somalia. So some of the military groups were used to do that and I saw from them and we tried to do it ourselves and we did it.
[i] Okay, the troops even… you and your friends saw that the troops had a creative way of creating their own weight lift things and then you guys used it.
[r] Yeah, and actually we were afraid of interrogating them because of the city and how they were there and we were not allowed to go to them and even we do not speak the same language. But sometimes you see that they are doing sometimes from behind or something. So it’s just a kind of idea that we made. Something that we saw from them and something that we are taught. Yeah, and I’m still sure that was not there if that was the same size that we were doing.
[i] So the troops, the military troops, they were all over the place, in the streets. How can you describe for me? What they used to do every day when you saw them or what were they doing on the street?
[r] It was a different times. There were times that they just… lived there like happily and no worries. But the same time, like a year or something after, when Al-Shabaab became more stronger than they were or than they were, they spread all in the city. So it was harder for them just to believe or interrogate the societies from the city. Just before, it was just… they were like friends to the people who lived in the city. And they used to walk in the streets like a normal. But after it became like that, they were all the time in their tracks when they are crossing on the road or something. So it was a different time. So the time that I am speaking about now is that… the time that they were like… a little bit open than they were after.
[i] What was the profession of your father? What he used to do? What kind of job he used to do before he died?
[r] Yeah, my father actually did a lot of things. Like 30 years ago or somewhere, he used to be a police. And after that… after the conflict of Somalia started, and then he became also as a import-export business. And then he had an accident. Something that paralyzed him. And so… he was also a barber once. So he did a lot of things.
[i] A what?
[r] Barber. Barber.
[i] Oh, barber. Barber, yeah. You say he had an accident. What kind of accident did he have?
[r] He had an accident because he was a businessman. As a import-export. He used to go from city to another to… to buy some products from there. And to sell it in the city. So… So he used to travel in a bus or truck a lot. So… And… He was driving… No, no. He was not driving. He used to travel with a truck. With a truck. So… Yeah. How would I say? The truck had an accident. So he was in the accident.
[i] And your mother, what was her profession? What she used to do? What she was still doing as a job?
[r] My mother also did a lot of little business. Like when you are selling something in front of your house. When you are sewing. And then she used to buy silk from the market. And then she sew it. And then she resell it to… She used to make baskets. So… Yeah. She used to do some kind of stuff. Yeah.
[i] Is she still doing that? Or…
[r] No. Because now nobody buys that anymore.
[i] Have you been brought up religiously? Which kind of religion do you have?
[r] I am a Muslim. And my Muslim swami is a Muslim.
[i] So in the household, you grow up as a Muslim. Can you tell us like which kind of tradition or what were the norms and the values that you have been taught in the household?
[r] Of a Muslim?
[i] Yeah.
[r] Yeah. Like mostly everybody who was born in Somalia, the most common religion and the only religion in Somalia is Islam. And just at the time that you are up to like five years or something, you start… You start… Because you see your father praying, doing Islam. Your mother as well. Your brothers or sisters. All the family, all the environment. And at the time of eight, five, you start to go into school even sometimes less. I mean the school of Quran. So in Somalia, you first need to go to Quran. And then like being years in a school of Quran and then you can develop into like a normal school that you learn something else. Like other subjects. So you just… I don’t know how to explain that. But this is something that I was born with and just like I’ve never seen some other religion or some kind of other things about religion except Islam.
[i] Were there also traditions? The Somalis traditions that you brought up to? Different traditions? How you… Example, maybe I don’t know which kind of tradition they use in the household of the Somali. What were the most important tradition that everybody have to be keeping? Like what are the most important tradition for you in your… What your mother or your father has given to you?
[r] Has given to me that I… That I… I am promised like that I will never leave or something. Yes, I left to Somalia like now four years or somewhere ago. So I was always in Somalia. And… Everything about religion and tradition and just that went into me deeply automatically. Because there were no other religion or there were no other tradition that we had from other things. So I always had that religion, tradition and everything as I grew up there. And the thing that I have… The thing that I have with me now and… And I think the most important thing is… First the religion and then second your tradition. Then the same time… That I think they are like quite similar. So if you leave your tradition and then you leave your religion. And if you keep your tradition and then you keep your religion. To me it’s like that. So … yeah. That’s all I can say. Can you tell us one value that your mother or your father gave to you and said it is good for you if you keep that value, some kind of tradition? What is that? Can you give us an example of one of the values that you brought up to?
[r] There are like several things, but what I can say is my mom, till now when we talk on phone, she always advises me and retells me again and always to be peaceful to the other people and to control my anger if it happens and just not to forget where I am from and how I grew up. So… And that’s what makes me, what follows me every time that I can say.
[i] So how do you feel about that when your mother tells you that those values don’t forget about where you come from? How do you interpret it for yourself? How do you feel about that?
[r] Yeah, I feel like if… If even she doesn’t say it anymore, I have that. Just like the several times that she told me and about even how I saw myself in here. Because when I came here, like I was like nowhere else. And when I saw like a lot of people who are from different countries and continents, sleeping together and everyone sticking to their religion or tradition or what they have. So… Yeah. And sometimes, so that’s what makes you… That’s what makes you hold on to your thing in a good way. Just like not to harm others, but in a good way. Just not to forget your roots. And where you have been up to. And yeah, just I mean in a good way.
[i] So you feel good that you now have to get to know different culture here. The place where you are living. And that makes you feel good that you also have your own culture.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Where you are happy with it.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Did you ever worked in Somalia?
[r] Yes.
[i] Or the place where you…
[r] Yes, I worked. I worked as a sports journalist in Somalia.
[i] A sports journalist?
[r] Yeah.
[i] Can you explain more about?
[r] Yeah. Just as I said before, I was in active in like in sports. Like when it comes to sport in Somalia, it’s always football, what comes first. So and like from 2011, 12, that’s the time that I started just like making the thing that I have mentioned before. Like the fitness and just more into football thing. Going there, watching. And there were like seminaries that… And the city was better at that time. So there were organizations who came into the city and just they were looking for some youth that you can train to be a journalist or something. So and I sticked to sports. So I had the training, the seminar. And then so yeah. I became a journalist just based into sports. Just to avoid myself just from problems that were going there. And yeah. So I was suggesting. I used to be talking in the radio. Just talking about football. So it was that.
[i] So you was talking about the football of different sports or only football?
[r] Yeah, mostly football. 90% football. So some things like when happens like a great match boxing. I used to mention that but it was just above 90% football.
[i] Okay. The football in Somalia or outside?
[r] Yeah. The football in Somalia but also mostly outside of Somalia. Yeah.
[i] So like which teams?
[r] Like English Premier League. Like Spanish La Liga. German Bundesliga. Yeah. I… When I was talking about the city or the teams of the… I was talking about just… I had no idea just how the stadiums look like or how… Just everything like was… Everything was like dream to me. Like I used to talk about them but sometimes I ever… I was thinking that this kind of people or stadiums that… This thing is just never existed. But I still… I was still talking about it. Just… Yeah.
[i] For you it was unbelievable.
[r] Yeah. It was just imagination to me. Just like some kind of fantasy film just like Harry Potter that you watch them and it’s never true but in your imagination you think it’s true. It was like that to me but it just…
[i] So you used to bring the… In the radio for the people how the match was going. So you used to speak about the match.
[r] Yeah. I used to speak about the match. And I used to even talk about the transfer markets. If a team buys a player or sells a player. Like how everything are going. Which teams are good and… So yeah I had a one hour program in… From one o’clock to two afternoon. So yeah it was five days a week. So it was good. Yeah.
[i] So you used to work five days a week?
[r] Yeah I used to work. I mean just before that I used to prepare my program and then I go there and then I suggest and then I finish and then after the noon I used to start like searching on internet or Google or something what is the newest thing about football and then I translate them into Somalian language. Somalian my language spoken in that area. And yeah I… Just the next day I used to prepare my program.
[i] So how was the situation in your, in the house in that time? How was the situation? What was like… What was usual in the household? That was okay that everybody have to do or expect to be doing or just the situation at home. Can you tell us more about it? Yeah I… Yeah I can tell more about the situation that I lived and what was normal to everybody was like that everybody woke up to work every day. And I think or remember that everybody worked like at least 10 hours a day. So they go like very early in the morning and then they came like at sunset. Yeah and… Yeah and the children going to school or Dugsi, Quran schools. And yeah hearing the… Hearing that done from the mosques. And yeah it’s a… It’s a… Yeah a lot of things was retro to everybody and normal. So I… I think come into my mind when I… When I think…
[i] So everybody is expected to do something. To go work or to go to school.
[r] Yeah.
[i] But the government… Did you… Did the people had a support from the government at that time? Um… To get work of financial supports of health care. Is there a system that… That can be supported that they support the… The citizens in Baidoa?
[r] No actually… Every… Everyone was doing their own thing. And even the biggest thing was like… Uh… Everybody… Like most people who went to work… Work out for work every day. Like 80% of them just went for working just to… Only to get what they would eat that day. Only that day. So there was no supporting from any organization or government whatsoever. Sorry. It was that.
[i] So even the work they do they had a…
[r] [making remarks about the camera] Make sure if it is red so that to avoid… You can stand up and check if the red button is going.
[i] If… If someone gets a job… Is there a contract of… How… How… How… How they do it? Or they just… How… How it goes? If they say… Okay we have a job for you. Um… What was the… The… The appointment between the person? Is it on paper? Is just… Uh… Verbal?
[r] No. Sometimes it… It… It… It… It used to be like a… A daily thing. So… Uh… Just like… Suppose I… I go… I woke up this morning and then I go outside to find a work. And then… Uh… In my work I found like somebody who have… Who had a track filled in some product is that he want to just… To… To… To take them to somewhere. And then he says like… Uh… Are you unemployed for the day? And then I say yes and then he says, okay come work and then we do that and then after that even. .. Uh… Sometimes you can imagine but uh… The… The employer gives you money and then the employee doesn’t want it because he find it’s too less and then the other guy find it’s too more. So… It was… So… It was so complicated yeah. So… There were… There was a work that I did in the radio and that was still not a contract or something. I started the work and then I was working and then I was getting my monthly salary. And then there was still a contract which says like one year or two years or something. But I worked there like two years.
[i] Can you tell us more about the house? Can you describe to us the house you used to live in Somalia, how it looks?
[r] When it comes to the house, I will maybe miss some words to say them in English. But our house was not… was not a stone. Just like we are in now. It’s just we call it in there in a stone. It was… It was actually not shit, but just I… As I said, it is for me difficult to describe it in English, in another language I mean even. So…
[i] What they made of it, is it from iron?
[r] No, it was from the… It was from the trees.
[i] Tree?
[r] Yeah. And… It was from trees and… And we still used like… Trees, woods and… And some other like… I don’t know how to call it.
[i] Those traditional house?
[r] The iron… No, not the traditional, but the iron thing. It was an iron, just we… We call it… I don’t know how to call it in English.
[i] Yeah. Okay, this with wood and then they use it iron.
[r] Yeah, it’s…
[i] It’s almost like iron, it’s like silver bag.
[r] Yeah, it’s a silver.
[i] Silver, yeah.
[r] It’s a silver now. Yeah. And it… And… And it… It… It is very hot when… When just… When there’s a sun.
[i] Because it’s from iron, but… Yeah. They make it like a house, like a big one and then… And then with… It stands with woods.
[r] With woods, yeah.
[i] With woods, okay. From the… From the roof… till the… Till the walls and then they cover it with the iron.
[r] Yeah. And also we have like… Another house when… When we are like four rooms in our house. So, three of them was that I explained. And the other one was we call it mutul, it stands like this.
[i] Traditional.
[r] And then from here, it is like… It is like a triangle. So… And the roof side, it is… It is grass. It is grass, but on the inside it was very cold. So that was our relaxing room.
[i] Those are the most traditional houses from the Somalis. Yeah, they used that also still. Was the community life important for you? When you were in Somalia, were you in some kind of association? Like a community, like the community they have here. Were you in Somalia also in a community? No, I remember nothing about a community. All I remember is just when something happens, the solvers were the alders all the time. So…
[i] Well, the elders people.
[r] The elders, yeah.
[i] You have the special people who…
[r] Yeah, when there is something, there are always elders who used to solve that. And there was not like a community or something that we were so specified to do some important things in the city. But there wasn’t. I cannot remember anything of that.
[i] What was the reason that you flee from Somalia?
[r] Yeah, as I said before, I was a sports journalist in Somalia. And I choose that to be free of a political side, to be a journalist. So… And still… That was not safe because my program, my radio program had a fans after. So, like at the noon time, at one o’clock, most of the youth used to listen to the radio. They were so interested about the program. So… And at that time… Uh… Also, the boss in Somalia. And then… Uh… I mean in Baidoa. And then they were like two years back when I was working there. Two years back, they were controlling all the city. And then when they left… So that’s the time then when the organizations came and tried to train the youth just to take that radical ideas from their minds. So… And I was one of the youth that… Just who took that advantage to be a journalist. And… Uh… So… After my program was good, just like in a… In a… One year and a half. One year, one year and a half. And then nearly two years. And then… They found out that like… That my program was not good to the youth according to them. Because I was investigating. Some like… Some like Western things as they mentioned. So… Yeah, that was… That was the reason. But I was not expecting. I was… I was thinking like that. I’m safe. I’m a sports guy. And I have no problem with anybody. So… But it did not go like that way. Yeah.
[i] So the… The Al-Shabaab is… So they had a power. They had power to control the city where you live. Or…
[r] Yeah. No. In 2009, they had the power to control. But after that, the Ethiopian troops like Amisom [African Union Mission in Somalia] with the government came and just… They were… They were sent out of the city. But they were still there because when you are like… When you are like… Like a normal person like me. I go to my house. I work. I help my family. And… And I have no gun. So I cannot resist. But the… The Al-Shabaab troops always have like some… Like… Like very… They… They… They used to work and still work like you cannot understand what they are doing to you. You cannot understand who is Al-Shabaab and who is not. So, if they warn you from something, you have to stop, otherwise it will be a big problem for you.
[i] So, how do they warn the people? Because you said you can’t know who is Al-Shabaab, so they don’t have like special uniform of… you will not get to know who is Al-Shabaab, but how the people know who is Al-Shabaab? How they will contact you? How they know you, what you are doing and all this kind of things?
[r] How they contact you is easy. They will get your number and then call you as a private number. And if you don’t answer the phone, they will text you a message. So, you cannot ignore.
[i] So, did you get a message from them?
[r] I actually got a call from them, but I did not want to answer, but just at that time, as I said, my father was sick and I was expecting a call from outside, from my aunt or something. And in Somalia, some… If you receive in Somalia some calls from abroad, most of the time they were like no number or private number. So, I answered the call that way. And just they told me like to stop what I’m doing. And I said, what am I doing? And then they said, you are misleading the youth. And I said, how am I? Because I’m doing nothing to anybody. I’m not saying something bad against you. And then they said, you are like more worst than that. And I said, how? And then they said like, you are taking the mind and the thinking of the youth from here to like Western countries. Just to tell them about… To tell them about how they call […] people that playing football and then who are naked in the grass or something. Yeah, and just… But I… Sometimes happens, but I… In a joke way, they are like your friend or someone who calls you and pretend that they are a job. And just to make a prank on you, like a joke on you. Just after that he says like, I got you. I made you scared or something. Firstly, I thought it was that. And then they said like, we are serious. We are warning you not to do that. And I said, I don’t think that I’m doing a bad thing. So…
[i] So how does that makes you feel?
[r] Yeah, it… Just… It… At that time, I felt like even myself angry. To them. And I… The answer that I give, I did not like after the call. I even tried to contact, but you cannot call because there was no number there.
[i] You felt angry because…
[r] I felt angry for the first. But after the call, they told me like, okay, you will find our answer, they said. And then after the call, I was scared very much. And I did not know what to do. I tried even to call them back. But I couldn’t because there was no number.
[i] So when you feel… When you felt afraid, what’s the next thing you did?
[r] Just nothing. I couldn’t even tell to my family because my father was sick. And my mother just was… Like all the women who cannot handle like some things. And everybody knows how serious they are, Al-Shabaab Yeah. It was… It was a very bad experiment. So… And… Yeah.
[i] You didn’t want your parents to get worried about you?
[r] Yes. Yes. Because… Even after worry… If you… If there’s nothing that you could do, so then… That makes even the worry much.
[i] Did you continue with the sports journalist or…?
[r] No. I stopped for… For a week. I actually told one of my closest friends that we were… We used to do all the things together. And… I told him about the thing. Like that they called me, and… And he said that… Okay, why don’t you stop? What you are… What they told you to stop? And I said like in two cases, I cannot stop. And one is for… Because I don’t have another work. I have to help my family. And the second I said just at least that we can change the thinking of the youth community, as they said, but I said like that, I said to them that I am not doing anything wrong or I don’t see it that way. Yeah, so, but the thing was that he was also one of them without my knowing. So…
[i] He was one of al-Shabaab.
[r] Yeah, he was one of al-Shabaab. Yeah, and I didn’t know that.
[i] How did you get to know that he was one of al-Shabaab? Yeah, it was, it was harder after. So it’s that, it is that, that at that time they used to warn the people, as I said, and then when they, just like, when, when they, when the people don’t do their willings, like, they have two options. That they kill them at the point that they see them. And the other one was just to kidnap them, to blindfold them and to take them. And when they take them, just like in two ways. So first to investigate what is this guy’s doing, just like after that, so they can do what they want to, if they want their release. Or, or just how their court says. And just if they, if their court says that you have to be, is love threat, then you will receive that and everything. So they were like, they, in, they were in two cases. So, and then it was time that they, they kidnapped. They tried to kidnap me and then happily, just I … I don’t want to talk deep, deep about that. But just at that time, I, I, I just phoned that guy, what he was doing. And I was not expecting so.
[i] So they also, I hear, court, so they have their, a special court?
[r] Yeah. It is special court, they will look at their book for you, they have their own book or something. And then the, they look up what you did. And how many ones that you get and how did you react and just that in all that thing so they will give you a punishment that you get so yeah and you will have that.
[i] And so after that, what was the next step you was going to do?
[r] The next was like it was after a time I could escape and then I went to Mogadishu and then after Mogadishu the aunt that I was talking about before just came to Mogadishu and happily she helped me to just arrange my things because my mom asked her just to help me with that so I couldn’t go back to Somalia and even in Mogadishu because they have the ability that …that they can do everywhere in Somalia what they want. So I couldn’t live there anymore, so I…
[i] So you had an aunt in Mogadishu?
[r] Not in Mogadishu. My aunt lived in Arab countries, but at that time she came back to Mogadishu. She was in Mogadishu for visiting or doing some stuff for her.
[i] So she organized the flight or the way you were about to go, she organized. How did she organize, what did she do?
[r] It was not only me who left Somalia because of Al-Shabaab. There were a lot of people. So the only solution was… Just the person to be out of Somalia. So and there were like some people who always to make a business of just taking the people out of Somalia. Just, how do I call them, smugglers.
[i] Smugglers, yeah.
[r] So and they contacted, she contacted one of those and just she arranged everything. So and… Yeah, one month that I was in Mogadishu, after that I was able to leave from there.
[i] So how many did it cost, the smugglers? How many did they pay?
[r] How much my auntie paid to them. I actually didn’t know before, but after I knew it… And before it was like… It was like… This guy will do everything that you want. She told me this guy will do everything that you want. So like if it is better or something, I used to ask him. He was a very rare guy. Like if you ask him one question or two or three, he used to give me only one answer. And it was like, you will live from here, don’t worry. So I think it was around 9000 or something until I was in Austria.
[i] Did you have the chance to say goodbye to your mother and father and your sister?
[r] No, no.
[i] You didn’t have the chance?
[r] No, no. I didn’t see my father back and he died when I was in an incident situation. And my mom just died. We just spoke on the phone, but I couldn’t.
[i] So you just on the phone, you say goodbye I’m going?
[r] Yeah. Actually, I didn’t. I did not need to say goodbye because we were talking every time. And with my aunt, she used to talk with her every time. So yeah, she… I used to call her whenever possible for me. In the time that even I was traveling, so…
[i] And… So we… How did you flee out of Somalia?
[r] In a plane.
[i] In a plane?
[r] Yeah. From Mogadishu to Turkey.
[i] From Mogadishu to Turkey?
[r] Yeah.
[i] And the smuggler was with you at that time?
[r] Yeah. Was with me and… For the first time, he was with me. But he was the last… That was the last time with me. Apart from the last trip. So… Like… Sometimes it used to be only me and sometimes I used to be with some other people who were like me. Just… We were like a group. Yeah.
[i] So the smugglers had a group of people. It was not only you, but they had different people who want to flee from Somalia. So they just take their time. All the people in groups.
[r] Yeah.
[i] So how did your flight went? How was your feeling when you… When the flight step up from Mogadishu and it was your way to Turkey? How did you feel at that moment?
[r] I felt relieved and sad at the same time. Because … Relieved from the… For my safety. And sad for my dad. I left… Like I left everything behind.
[i] So you was alone at that time. You felt alone.
[r] Yeah. Sure. So when you came to Turkey, how long did you stay there and where did you stay? And with who did you stay?
[r] I… It was actually the guy who said that I will be with him till the end of my journey to Europe. So when I came to Turkey with a group that we were. And then we went to a house that he had already. Some other groups as well. So I stayed there with the group like one month.
[i] So everything was organized.
[r] Yeah.
[i] So everything was in the payment. In the 9000 Euro.
[r] Yeah, everything was.
[i] Or dollar and …
[r] Yeah. I didn’t have to ask any money back or something. Because I didn’t had where to…
[i] But did you know… Did you knew where you was about to go? Your destination? Where it will be? Which country? Did you knew from…
[r] I had a friend in here who lived in Belgium like one year ago before me. And we used to contact. And he told me to come to Belgium that it was a good country to be. So… And… So… And… Yeah. So… So that… I had Belgium in my destination. So…
[i] Okay. You knew that you had Belgium.
[r] Yeah.
[i] It came from you? Or it was… Planted through the smuggler? That…
[r] No. As I said, I had a friend lived in Belgium one year before me. And… Yeah. And… So he advised me to come to Belgium. So… And… So I had only Belgium in my mind.
[i] So what was his advice? What he told you that time?
[r] He was even knew to build him like one year or less he was here. Yeah. But because he also didn’t have even other friend and I… For me also. So… Just he… He… He suggested and so… But I was… I was not like… I was not like… No. I… I was like… Yes. Okay. I will… At least to be… A country where I… Where I can find like one friend. For me. Yeah.
[i] Okay. You had a company.
[r] Yeah.
[i] Like… Okay. He… When he came here, he didn’t have no one.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And then now he felt like… Okay. You can come here.
[r] Yes.
[i] Okay. So, how long did the trip from Turkey, from Mogadishu to Turkey. How long it took. the trip?
[r] From Mogadishu to Turkey?
[i] From Mogadishu to Turkey.
[r] It was the same day, like six hours in the plane.
[i] And how long did you stay there in Turkey?
[r] Well, like one month, I stayed one month, yeah.
[i] And then you came straight to Belgium.
[r] No, I did not came straight to Belgium. It was like a trip on a boat on the sea. And it was a very difficult one. In the sea our engine stopped and we had no help. Normally the boat crosses from border to border like 60 minutes or something. And we were there like 5 hours or something because for 4 hours we were just on the sea because our engine stopped. It did not work anymore. Because when you go into that way, the driver and the guy with the engine, everything just must be included in the people who are traveling with the boat. There is not a special person who is just only doing that. So in a very quick way they get trained to like one or two people from the people who are traveling, from the immigrants. And the people who have the activist mind or think that they did this before, just to say it like that, I know this.
[i] Experience.
[r] Yeah. So one crazy guy just among us said like, I knew this thing I used to do every time and just don’t worry. And everybody believed him because the situation was so bad. And there are like 20 boats there. And everybody is like fixing their own boats. Then you have to blow your own boat and everything. Just you buy the plastic boat yourself and then you do it and then you blow it. And then just everything. And somebody come to you like says like when you need to start the engine, you do like that, like that. And then the third time, the fourth time it will be up. And if you need to drive, you go to the back side and then you sail, you make the steering like this. So yeah, it’s very risky. But we did not have any choice. So in the middle of the start point, our engine stopped. And then one guy came behind us. That is one of the smugglers who were working there. And then he swam towards the boat. And then he fixed the engine for us. And then, okay, then we restarted again. And like about one minute or something. And then it stopped again. And then he came after us again. And then he fixed. And then at this time we left. At this time we left and we were like on the boat like 20 minutes or something. And then it stopped again. So at the time we did not have anyone, and then we just tried, tried, tried, and then …
[i] The engine was stopped.
[r] Yeah.
[i] How many people were in the plastic boat?
[r] Forty-two, and normally it is just a boat for eleven people.
[i] Were there children, were there women?
[r] Yes, there were children and women, and then the children and women sit at the very center of the boat, and the men go like a circle of the boat like this, and the boat even was going down, and everybody has to throw their own bags, and just passports, everything that they had, just even their own clothes, just to make the boat less heavy. Yeah, so we were there like even a guy with a wheelchair even was in the boat as well. So like after a time that like everybody was like, nearly, how do I call, yeah, yeah, and also myself because it was after very struggling.
[i] Sick.
[r] Yeah, and so, yeah, it was really bad, and just crying children, women, and like, yeah. And then the thing … A big boat from Greek troops just were in the sea, so then they, the boat came, and then, yeah, we were like survivors from there.
[i] Yeah, I can see that it was a difficult time for you at that time.
[r] Yeah, I couldn’t imagine what would happen like if you were like one hour, one hour more in there.
[i] Did you bring some food, some water?
[r] No, no. Just…
[i] Was that allowed?
[r] You will not remember that because if you are, if you are, just if you eat food or drink water, you will still vomit because in the sea you always feel like nausea when you are in the sea. And you are not having a time when you are not swimming, if you are not having fun in the sea, The sea is very bad.
[i] So everyone gets seasick?
[r] Yeah, everybody was sick. And when the boat came, everybody was crying.
[i] The rescue boat?
[r] Yeah, the rescue boat.
[i] They were crying because they were happy?
[r] Yeah, everybody was crying.
[i] So it took five hours to get rescued?
[r] Yeah, and we did nothing but only stayed there. And the bad thing even was like… Because 40 people in there, some of them already fainted and we didn’t know them. And there were three crazy guys and one tried to smoke a cigarette on the boat. And… He had a lighter with his hand. So like in three seconds I tried to just to go with him in the sea so that the other people can be safe. Yeah, so it was… everybody was stressed so they did not know what to do.
[i] So when your people were saved, which country or where did you went?
[r] It is always from Turkey to Greece. So we were going to Greece. So when we were saved, we got into the boat from the Greek troops and then we were in an island called… What was the name? Mentalenia. [Mytilini – Lesbos] Meltelenia. I hope it was one of that Meltelenias. So… Yeah, and we were there like three hours or something. And we had a food and we had a medical checkup or something. Yeah, and then from that we went to… We went with a bus to Athens, the capital of Greece. And then from… No, from there with a bus we went like into the other city. I don’t know what was it. And then from that city we had… We took… We traveled with a ship, very big ship that we could stay there, eat there, sleep there. And it was very big boat.
[i] Like a cruise.
[r] Yeah. So it was… After six hours we went to Athens. So after Athens we just… We still had to take another… So that was in 2015. So… And it was… It was… The road trip was non-stop because of the Syrian refugee. The Syrian situation was out. So… We were like traveling non-stop after the Greek in… In Macedonia, Croatia… What was it? Like we had some like five countries like till we came to Austria.
[i] So there was still the smugglers or…
[r] No, no.
[i] You… You continued your journey or were there other people who was helping you?
[r] Yes. It was the thing which was going like that. But the smugglers made it like difficult. Like because they… They don’t want some… Any one of their client… To do their own thing or just to… To… Their mind to be open. But the thing was going like that. But in Athens… In Athens then they told us to stop there. But we… We could… We could still continue without… Just in a safe way. But they told us to stop or we will be… We will be arrested. We will be arrested or sent back. Departing back to Somalia or Turkey. So… So… So we were afraid. So…
[i] From the smugglers or the people in Athens?
[r] I just… If you don’t know anything and you are new to somewhere and the only person who took you from very way back to there, he tells you something you have to believe.
[i] They… They advise you…
[r] Yeah. They make you scary. Just like if you do this you will get arrested or something. And… And… Yeah. So…
[i] For them, they say… Okay. You are now in Greece. Stop there. Don’t continue your journey. Just live there. So…
[r] Yes.
[i] That’s what they advise you. Yeah.
[r] We could have continued from Greece to… To like from one country to other country to other country. Like… And it was very cheap. You didn’t have to pay anything or… Just… But they did not want that. They wanted other money or something from us, us everybody. And if you couldn’t… If you would have continued our trip like that way, we will… We would be safe and in a good way at that time. But they told us to stop and don’t do… Don’t… Don’t just… Don’t go with that… Don’t flow with that… Syrian or other Afghan people, refugees, people who were just traveling, and then they are putting their crosses with their feet, just only walking, and then you cannot do that, you will get arrested, you will be sick, you will be in cold, everything that they made so to horrify us.
[i] Scary, very scary.
[r] Yeah, so, and we had to stop that, so, and we waited.
[i] How long did you wait?
[r] Like a month, I could have been like four months before, in Belgium, if I didn’t wait.
[i] You waited four months?
[r] Yeah, four months, three months and three weeks or something, even more, I think.
[i] So where did you stay in Greece then, with who?
[r] Still, they make like a group of people. They rent apartments, and like a lot of people live in the apartments.
[i] So they keep the people then in a cage, hosted, so that you can pay, so that you can, they can continue to bring you to the next destination.
[r] Yes.
[i] So they need money.
[r] Yeah. Yeah.
[i] But who was paying all the accommodation? Who was paying for the house and the water, or the food, of course? I don’t know.
[r] Well, that depends, that depends the person. Like, if it was like me, who they have their money in one time, if it was like me, who they had their money in one time, and then that they will never ask me money again, because I, they didn’t have to ask me money. They just took all my money from my aunt. And I didn’t have to talk about any money or thing. So, as my situation, I didn’t have to pay anything. But they are like, they were like other people who were like traveling, and when they stopped in somewhere, they stopped, and then they called their family, and then they received their money again. And then they, even there, there are some people who rent their apartment, but there was rent. And then that is rent, always rented by the smugglers. And then the other people receive some pills from their relatives or families, and then they collect the money and then they make, pay the rent and buy the food or something at the time of their waiting. And then, what comes after is they try like one person or two person per week or per month. So, if it is your, your… If it is your… If it is your good luck, then you will pass, and if it is not, you will get arrested or will come back. So, it was like that.
[i] Did you stay in touch with your family at that time?
[r] That time, not a lot, not too much. Because they did not want that, they just, they did not want like to talk to your family or your relatives or something. And then, because of their, are afraid of their information to get out, so…
[i] If they get to know that they are smugglers or they are afraid of that.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And so, and so you made a new friends there, the group where you was with, so you stayed there, you did not have a lot of contact with your friends back home or family and…
[r] Yeah.
[i] How does it, how does it make you feel like that?
[r] It…
[i] It was four months, you alone in Greece.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And…
[r] It is, it is just, as I left from my life, I was expecting to face everything. It was not a new thing to me. And… If I escaped from a killing… …or, or a bad thing or explosions or, or somebody will slaughter you or something, then the rest will become like forget you. So, what I worried about was, was my, was my family only behind me, but making friends or whole my life was, or… Just that was, that was not worry to me at all. I was only thinking about where will you settle and, and when. And, and I was waiting that, so…
[i] So when you came to Europe, what was your first impression of the, of Europe?
[r] Yeah, the, the, the streets and, and the green, the green grasses and the streets was my first impression. Like, like, when I see a place, I see like, oh, here is beautiful. And I, I said to my mom, like, here is the most beautiful place that you saw. And then I still see another place and then I say like, oh, here is more beautiful than before. So the, the, the first thing as I was traveling, when it was with a plane or with a train or sometimes with bus. Yeah, the, the environment or the land, the beauty of the land was my first impression.
[i] And then, how long it took you to come to Belgium? From Greece to here, how long?
[r] Yeah, in the journey you mean?
[i] Your, your journey, yeah. How long it took you to?
[r] It, it, it was very quick. It was, it was on a plane, so it was quick.
[i] So even though the smugglers, they take care of everything?
[r] Yes. Yeah. And…
[i] And when you came to Belgium, how, so you step out of the plane, how it went?
[r] I, I, I don’t remember when, where was it, but from after the plane, we had to take a train. But I still cannot say where was that. And then in a, in a train, we were like traveling one hour and a half to two hours, something. And then we stopped. And then we got off the train. And then on the outside. And then after that, after back. I, I found out that I was there in a, in a, in a Brussels North. So it was there where we stopped. And then we came out and then he showed me like the place, the immigration office. And then he pointed me with his finger like, like, like there you can sit down. It was like 12 at the midnight. So, and tomorrow is a Monday. So he said, tomorrow will be opened. And it was a winter time in December. And like it, the office will be open at eight o’clock. I had to wait there in a cold, like eight hours. So he said like, go wait there. So tomorrow this will be open. So, and this is the office that you need to say that you are a refugee. And we are done.
[i] So you waited there?
[r] Yes.
[i] In midnight?
[r] Yes.
[i] Where did you sleep?
[r] I did not have, I stayed there and not blessed to sleep.
[i] You didn’t sleep?
[r] No. I stayed there. But the good thing was, it was not only me. There are already other people who were waiting there before me. A lot of Afghan refugees and also from the refugees from Syria.
[i] So the morning came and then…
[r] Yeah, and so the morning came and the guy who was the door of the office said very, very easily, go and come back tomorrow. And I did not have a place to go. And…
[i] It was full or?
[r] Yeah, it was, it was very full. And the queue was like, you cannot imagine. It was very, it was very full at that time. So, yeah.
[i] And then they say to you, come back tomorrow.
[r] Yeah, come back tomorrow. Like I leave the next building. And I said, I have no place to go. Nah. So, and I got a paper from them that I could wait. Like there was a building around. So there, a refugee people could stay there like temporarily, like a days, five days till their number comes down. So I went to their building. So… Yeah. Sharing a room with like… Yeah. A very big room, 20 people or something. I don’t… Yeah, it was, it was, it was better.
[i] It was mixed or only male?
[r] No, it was only male, but mixed, mixed male from a different…
[i] Different country.
[r] Countries, yeah.
[i] So you waited next day, then you came back to the, to the immigration office.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And then you was accepted this time?
[r] Still, it took me like 21 days to, to be there. And when you go like every time and then you are told to come back and then you go like in the…
[i] 21 days.
[r] Yeah, but it was understandable because there were a lot of people, a lot of people. And so…
[i] So you still have the chance to wait it on the other place where they, the refugees could sleep?
[r] Yes.
[i] So how did you get money or food or clothes or how, how did you manage that?
[r] I, I did not. I did not. I did not get any money from anyone, but I, the place that I need, I, I used to stay. Everything just was, the food was free. I used to eat from there like in a, in a, in a fixed time and I sleep, I used to sleep there. So in the, in the very little situation, I, I did not have any money, but I did not even have to have money. Because I, I, I, I did not do so many things, so…
[i] So when you get to the authorities from the time after, after 21 days, how, how did it went? You came to the office and they say, okay, now you can have an appointment with so-and-so. How, they, how did authority treated you?
[r] The authority treated me well. The time, the first day that I went there, I was, I was welcomed good and that I was from, I, I told everything from my, from my basic background. And then I was… Yeah. It was good. And I was sent to refugee center in, in Zwijndrecht, in Antwerpen. And yeah, from there it, it started. Yeah. From there it started that I could stay like a normally. So I, I can, I can say that I, I started relaxing at that time. So it was still in a center room that you have to share a home. Food, everything together. But yeah, it was, yeah, it was, it was, it was quite a good start of my processing.
[i] So you felt like, okay, now I felt something lift off of my shoulder.
[r] Yes, yes, yes.
[i] And how long did you, how long were you in the, in the center? I was in the center like 10 months. Yeah.
[i] 10 months.
[r] Yeah.
[i] And how long did it take for you to get your … how long did it take for you to get your green card?
[r] Green card, your orange card.
[i] Oh yeah. Orange card.
[r] Orange card is, orange card is, I think it was after. It was after a month or, or something. And yeah. The community, the community.
[i] Yeah.
[r] The community came to our, our, our, the community come to our center. The community came to our center and just, they were like asking how is everybody. And so, and, and, and I was told that you will receive the orange card, so with a, with a photo of mine. So, yeah, it was three, three month. Is it one month? I don’t remember it very well.
[i] And then you was ten months in the center. And then where did you go from there, the ten months?
[r] After ten months I got my five-year residence so that I could change my living place from sharing room to private room so that till I could have my own rented apartment to stay there. So I still was there for like three months or something and then I got an apartment and then from there it started my life on privacy.
[i] So you get your own apartment and from there you settle down.
[r] Yeah, I started. Even going to school for Dutch lessons, I started that when I was already in the center. So I continued, I just had to start nothing.
[i] Does it take a major effort for you to adopt the culture? Because I can understand it’s a different culture where you grow up. In Somalia, they have a different culture from here in Belgium. Was it difficult for you to adopt it?
[r] Ah, it was not that easy but it was even interesting and good. And the thing that made even to adapt with the culture is the community who are living here, the people who are from here. Because… When I lived in the center, there were always people who were coming to the center, to just a lot of different organizations who used to tell us or to teach us about how to integrate and every community or organization had their own thing that I said like, oh, I wanted to know this, like from history. From how you can live in there, how you can live with the stress, how you can live without like your family back home. And so there was a lot of help from they and then with the helping of that. And then after I got my residence and then there is a still integration course that you need to take. And that also helps a lot to get to know about the, about the country. About the culture, about a lot of things. So it was a good process way and it was good and I did not have any problem with adapting because I mean still what is beautiful is nobody takes out, nobody takes something out from you but everybody tells you like how is here like and the most thing they doesn’t harm your cultural or religion or something.
[i] You have a freedom to choose whatever you want to believe and the culture.
[r] So there’s now like something that you need to do by force and everything is like quite open. Yeah I just, I liked everything like to adapt into the gate and to do everything that just made me to be open-minded.
[i] Yeah the way you say it was, it’s very beautiful because you said when I was in the center, I get a lot of help yeah because they offer a lot of help to people. For some people they are very afraid of the outside, but I found it very beautiful how you were open to hear and to take the help and use that. It’s very beautiful. Where do you live now?
[r] Now I live in Berchem.
[i] What are you doing currently?
[r] I currently work as a seller in Primark, like an official work I do that. And I still do my own dreamy work, like to film things, to create short films, to do that kind of stuff. So I want to make that my professional future work.
[i] So you make short films?
[r] Yes, I make short films and I write them, I edit.
[i] Can you describe your neighbors?
[r] In … my neighbors?
[i] Are they also from different culture or are they…
[r] I actually live in a very big building. But… I can say that I literally know one… I literally know one name of my neighbor. Only one name.
[i] Only one name?
[r] Yeah. And…
[i] Do you have a good contact with them? Or…
[r] I can say that no, because like… I see everybody in the corridor, like… Or in the lift lobby and say like, hello, hi. And that’s all.
[i] Do you feel welcomed in the building?
[r] I feel like as I’m… I feel like as everybody in the building. I don’t feel like welcomed or unwelcomed or something. I don’t think about that. But it’s okay. I feel that good. I don’t have problem with that.
[i] Was it hard for you to make new friends here in Belgium? Tell me about your circle of friends.
[r] When I was in a center, I started from there to make friends. Especially even from Belgium. And I had a friend of… I had a theater maker friend. She came to our center and she was looking for some history, stories of the people who lived in the center. And I found that interesting. And I even spoke to her like individually. And I said, I think I’m good at this thing. So I will be glad to help or to be part of it. And I was a part of that. And that made me even just to participate in other theaters and then to still make other friends from the theaters. And then, yeah, I sell from the theaters and film making. So that is a circle of my friends.
[i] Do you ever, since you are here, experience some discrimination because of your religion or your color or something?
[r] When I hear that, like as a question or as a statement, I always have one answer or one thing that comes into my mind. Like I imagine, I’m from Somalia, and I imagine a different people with a different color coming into our country and living there. So everybody will not be like 100% to them, to welcome, to do everything for them. There will always be people who have trouble with them, inside or outside, whatever. So even if I feel like if someone does a discrimination to me, I don’t understand it that way. I understand it like as a person. This person had a bad day. This person had bad heard. And maybe I was wrong as I asked. So I made the reason in that way, but I just do not put that into a racism way or a discrimination way. I don’t take that stuff with me always. I’m just out of that. If I ask somebody a question, and if they answer me rudely, it’s up to me if I take that personally or just in another way. So I always choose and it’s not me. I remember like one time I was with my friend and one guy, just we had a problem with one guy. And when we were alone from the guy and it was solved, and he was all day talking about like discrimination or racism, something. But it did not came to my mind even once. And I told to him that just it is good that you have to leave this thing behind and to take it personal. Because if you like, if you feel, if you face or have a problem with someone who you have with their own culture, with the same culture, with the same religion, with the same color, you cannot take that into discrimination or something, isn’t it? Yes, so and take this. Why not take this like that? So that’s always what I give as an answer to that question or I have in my mind. So I can say that I never felt that. I never felt that.
[i] Do you have contact with your family or friends in your home country?
[r] Yes.
[i] How?
[r] By phone.
[i] So you guys call each other?
[r] Yeah, by phone, yeah.
[i] And do you also have here in Belgium contact with your fellow countrymen or women here in Belgium?
[r] Yes, yes.
[r] How?
[r] Just by playing football sometimes, by if we come across in the street or somewhere and then say like hello, hi, and where do you live, something. Yeah, in our community it is very easy to make friends. So if you see each other your first time and then yeah, next day you are friends.
[i] And are you still experiencing the culture of your home country here in Belgium? The culture, your culture. It can be like party, some traditional things here in Belgium.
[r] Yes, when I need to. I don’t say something that takes me from that. So if I, like a wedding, like a wedding ceremony when I go to, like Eid or like holidays, I do that, yeah.
[i] What are the traditional honor or parties that you keep doing it? Because I hear you say like Eid, Eid party after the Ramadan, the celebration, that is something cultural, so cultural thing that you do. Are there other things?
[r] Like I said, I, like, like ceremony parties, wedding parties. And yeah, I don’t necessarily do that, but if that comes, like, very compulsory to me, like Eid, I do that, yeah.
[i] Are you married or single? Do you have kids? Are you divorced?
[r] Yes, I’m married. I have one kid now. I have a son, yeah.
[i] In what way has everything that you have already experienced made you the person you are today?
[r] To… not to give up on life and just to bring the best out of you into this world, you know. In that two ways, I… they make me from past to present, yeah.
[i] Yeah, so the last question. So your wife is here and your kid is here also.
[r] Yeah. Do you often think about the journey from Somalia to here? Do you often think about it?
[r] Yeah, it’s always good to think about the journey and the difficult times that you had and I have wrote from them and even I made a theatre of them. Just…yeah.
[i] About the journey itself?
[r] Yeah, about the journey and not the full journey but the very. the most important part. So it was… it’s my first theatre, so… yeah, I… just I… I… there are very sad parts of it that I want to get rid of but the… all the other experiences and things I… I remember it and I need to keep that because just. remembering that and having that in mind, just it makes you stronger and… and… and… just everything.
[i] You say there were positive side and negative side. You want to take the positive side along with you but how do you give a place the experience, the negative experience? How… How did you give a place how did you try to give that a place that they were not? Because you say you are… you want to get rid of it. How did you get rid of it?
[r] Like… Like the most part that I… is… that my father died when I was not around and it was the most time that he… he needed my help. So… that remembering that doesn’t make any strongness to myself now. So that is the… like the parts that I… I just don’t like remembering or how the situation was. But all the other things that… the difficulty that I had in… in my journey, in my life back there, everything. That… makes… gives me more motivation, gives me more. in… in… in a high energy thing. So I keep that with me. So… and the rest parts that makes me just like… one hour… if I remember, one hour or two hours or sometimes a days of sadness. So I… I try to take that off my life. Just… forgetting will not be possible but just… not to remember every time.
[i] What values do you want to pass onto your… You say you have one kid. Is it a son or daughter?
[r] Son.
[i] It’s a son. What… What values do you want to pass onto your kid, your son?
[r] I think they are my… my obligation is to just feel and give him a good basic. As every good father could do for their own children. But… I… in the future of him I will not choose anything for him. I will try to show him a lot of different things so that he can do what his passion of … So that is what I’m thinking of.
[i] So… what’s I… the… the… the… let’s say one. one very important value that you want to make sure that your son has it in this life for you that is important. Can you tell us like one example that you want to make sure that your son behave on that value or internalized it. Some kind of reason to have that value?
[r] Uh… if I understand it very well I… I… the first thing I… I want my son to be peaceful uh… creative and… and… so to feel that he has the best father. So after that… what I believe is that he… he… he will choose what he wants to be. Yeah.
[i] Do you sometimes feel homesick?
[r] Yeah. Sometimes it happens.
[i] What do you do at that times?
[r] Um… my go running. I go outside. Yeah. And or… or I took photos. You know. So something that makes me just do activities then I will be okay again.
[i] What are your dreams for the future? Uh… Yeah. That… I have a dream of uh… being someone who creates a good history that can change people’s life into good way.
[i] Do you want to stay in Belgium or move forward? Do you ever hope to return to your country of origin?
[r] Yes. I… I would love to return to my country so I… if I can live there peacefully and and everything complete so yeah I… I would love that but there’s a reason that I came here for so if that there’s no reason anymore or I have everything good life in there so why not?
[i] Do you want to say something else because I don’t have no question anymore?
[r] Yeah. Uh… yeah the thing that I would say is uh… if I… I say this for everybody who is watching this or who will watch this uh… it was I… it was from my friend, it was from my friend’s advice to come to Belgium, but I never regretted it from and it was a good choice for me so far and I will also expect that it will be here so ever I am in here so and I want to thank everybody who helped me to step into my life in a good way in here. And yeah, it was good choice from me so and I want to say thank you to everybody who helped my life, yeah.
[i] Thank you also for letting me interview you about your journey. I know it’s difficult but uh… thank you we appreciate it.
[r] You are welcome.