SU_A_10

[i] Good afternoon, [name]. Today I will interview for the project Specially Unknown for the European Refugees Oral History Project. Before I start with my questions, can you please tell a little bit about yourself, where you’re from, what you do in life?
[r] Good afternoon, [name]. Thank you very much for receiving me here. My name is [name]. I’m a Syrian artist, a singer and a filmmaker. I came to Belgium three years ago with my family. I do, for the time being, performances in the theatre, singing or acting, and I direct short films.
[i] Can you please tell me a little bit about your life in Syria, about your family, about your childhood, what was it like?
[r] Yes. Yeah, very sensitive topic, but yeah. It’s nice to remember, to go back to these nice memories. Actually, I was raised in a Christian Orthodox family. My father was an engineer. He was a Christian Arab and my mom was Armenian. She was a painter and a fashion designer. And I was raised in a very artistic family. So music for us, it was like better than church. So the morning when I wake up, the first thing my father does is just put for us music for a very famous Lebanese singer called Fairuz. He was in love with her more than my mother, actually. So then, of course, I used to play piano since I was five, by ear. Anything I would hear, I would just play it. I was crazy about theater, opera, sometimes also some comedy films, Tom and Jerry. I feel like Tom and Jerry had really a great influence, not only with music, it’s also with drama. It’s also with tricks and also how to make it. It’s like it was like mathematics makes you how you know to think and how to escape off the problem. Just come up with something new. And with the… My school years, yeah, for us in Syria, in our culture, it’s very important that you should study, go to university. Like, yeah, either you have to become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer. So that was something like a must. So I went to law school. But yeah, it wasn’t my character. I always wanted, you know, to be an artist. So… Luckily, I met my husband. He’s also an engineer and he’s also a poet. So we got that combination that, OK, we don’t like what we study, but we love art. So we supported each other with that. And then I traveled. We got married and then I traveled to Dubai. We lived there for almost eight to nine years. I taught music and drama in a British school. I directed many musicals for children. I love children very, very much. Although I love children very much, I just have one son. Yeah, it’s funny, I know. Even my son asks me, like, why don’t you, why didn’t you think of getting me a brother? Because, like, all my students were like my children. And for me, a child is a very, too much responsibility that you should take care of. And I, at that time, I was like young and passionate and I just want to follow my dreams. And I was dragging my son here and there to my work. And it was so much fun. It was filled with energy. Then we had a business in Dubai. My husband had a business. We had a company. And then the big economic crisis happened in 2008. And then we lost everything. And then we thought, OK, maybe it’s time to go back to Syria and just start a new life. And then… On the year that we decided to go back, in 2009, I lost my mother all of a sudden. She was young. And it was really heartbreaking for me. It was a big shock. It took me really several years to get over it. And we went back to Syria with all the circumstances. And then after one year, two years, the war started. So it was like at that moment, at that time, I tried really hard. Not to break down and not to surrender. But, you know, at the end of the day, we’re humans. And sometimes, you know, you’re tired of being strong. So you have to just go with the flow. You want to cry, OK? You want to get depressed. It’s OK. So that period was really, really hard for me. And then with the war, with the consequences, and you see your people dying, killing each other. It was tough not only on me. It was tough on all Syrians. So we had to, of course, leave Aleppo and then live in Mashta al-Helu, where my husband comes from. And there I started teaching music also for children. And I had my own choir. We performed a few times. And then I was doing talent hunting for children. So I would find, you know, someone who was very good at music. It was like genius or like someone who was very good in poetry. And I did a lot of like talent concerts there. But because the circumstances of the war and what my family, my parents suffered so much from it, I felt that, OK, what’s going to happen next? What is what is next? And me personally, I’m a very ambitious woman. I love to do more. So for me, teaching. It was like, yeah, it’s still it’s great and I love it. But I felt, OK, now I want to do something new. But it was it was just not possible in Syria because you wake up, you have to wait for the electricity to come. You have to wait for the water. It’s not safe to go outside. It’s, you know, it’s like mixed up. It’s a it’s a big mess.
[i] Can you tell a bit more about the life before the war? How was it?
[r] Actually, for us, because I lived abroad for some time, I can say it was safe. But it wasn’t that good because, yeah, corruption was there. There is no respect for humanity. And this is something this is something that we we deserve to have as Syrians.
[i] Why do you think so?
[r] Because, yeah, because of the system, because of the politics, because of the, yeah, the government.
[i] You mean the Syrians as people or the Syrians as a nation?
[r] It’s actually Syrian as people deserve to be respected because we have smart people. We have intellectual people. We have hard working people. We have very businessman. We have we have almost everything. But we don’t care. But it’s the media and how it portrays us to the West or also to other countries. I was really surprised that when I came here, some people before the war, they did not know that we exist actually. And that is sad. And it’s not only about Syria itself, it’s the problem, it’s the whole problem of the Middle East. It’s the religion, it’s the politics. It’s what limits you. We are free souls, we are free thinkers. We need to think, you need to give freedom to your thoughts, to your emotions. Because we are humans and we have the right to live. And this was missing before the time of war. And people were suppressed for 40 years. But yeah, I would say also it was somehow positive. Because now when I see the consequences, of that suppression 40 years ago, then I understand because now it’s a mess. But we didn’t want, with the revolution, we didn’t want… We just wanted a change, we just wanted respect, we just wanted few simple things as you, as a human. It’s your right, you know, to live. But it turned out to be a big mess. Both of them screwed up everything. And we were the victims. Unfortunately. And until now, as long as people are making millions of dollars, or the business, the war business people, that they’re making millions of dollars, this is not going to stop. So, yeah. I cannot say it was very good before the war. And I cannot say it was good also because there were a lot of poverty. There were a lot of problems that, you know, you cannot go to the… You cannot ask for your rights. If you have money, if you know people, you know, from the authority, then you can get what you want. If you don’t, then… Yeah. And for us, we didn’t find, like, more difficulties because we were not immediately in… Yeah. I would never… I can never remember that I was, like, in touch immediately, you know, with the government. Because it was something that I really hated. And this is one of the reasons why I didn’t want to do law or… Yeah. Because how am I going to work with them? Like, it’s always, like, lying and… I know it’s everywhere, but this was my point of view at that time.
[i] And have you been interested in politics in general? I was. I was, yes. It’s… Unfortunately, it’s not a very clean game. And… I think to be a politician, you really need to be… I don’t know how to portray this. You really know… You really need to know how to play the game and you really have to adapt. And this is something that I cannot do. I… Maybe I want… I want to… Maybe, like, I have also ambitions, you know, to be in a, let’s say, in a political, let’s say, position. But to help humanity. This is what I want to do. Something that is with human rights. Something with children care. Yes. But more than that, no, I’m not interested, because I know for sure if I’m too sharp and if I’m too right, then it’s not gonna… It’s not going to work. My aim is to help humanity. To support humanity. To support my country. And I think I could do that through art. I can do that through my films. I can do that through my singing, through my voice, through my emotions. And I think that is more closer to people’s hearts. Then I don”t have purposes … of expressing, you know, I just want to be myself and I just want to show love and art and that’s what I want to do.
[i] And do you have some siblings, brothers and sisters?
[r] Yes, I have only one brother. He lives in Australia. He’s married now. He’s been married for three years. Yes, we are just only two. He has also a beautiful voice. I haven’t seen my brother in five years. He had also some issues in 2012. The war started in Aleppo and he was just in his car and he was just seeing people dying in front of him. So he just lost his mind and he just went to Facebook and he just wrote, you know, stop killing civilians and stuff. And then he got arrested and it was really like bad, bad for a few months. But luckily he got released and now he’s in Australia. He’s good. He’s doing good. But I really, really miss him so much because he’s my soulmate. And I hope one day we can meet again. We can meet on one stage and we can just perform together. Yeah, and my father, he passed away just before I come to Belgium. So for me, it was like, okay, nobody’s left. Yeah, I know I have my cousins, my uncles, but they were like too old. But you know, when it’s your father and your mother, it’s really difficult for you not to leave them and go. Especially because he did not have… my brother wasn’t there and I was there. So when he died also… I was like, okay, I really have to leave. It’s like, you know, to that point that… you reach that point that, you know, there is no point of staying in Syria because nothing is going to get better. Things are getting worse. It’s dangerous for your children, for the future of your children. Yeah, and then we came here.
[i] So your brother left to Australia before you?
[r] Yes, before me. Yeah, yeah. I was at that time and I tried to go back to Dubai to start my studies in film. And I thought, okay, maybe I can get a visa so I can get my family. But yeah, for the political reasons, my visa got rejected a few times. Two times or three times, I remember. And then I was studying in Murdoch, Australian University for film. And then I thought, okay, maybe I will take a break. And I just… In summer… One summer, I went back to Syria with my family. And we were happy that my brother is getting married in Melbourne. And my father was there. And then my father decided after my brother’s marriage that he just wants to go to Aleppo to celebrate with his brothers and the in-laws of my brother. And then he just… He passed away, you know, in a heart attack. And I couldn’t… From Masht al-Khaloud to Aleppo, there was 12 hours of traveling because of, you know, the borders, many borders. And it was dangerous, you know, for me to go there. So I couldn’t go to my father’s funeral. So that was like really hard, really hard on me. And my visa got rejected also. So I’m like… Yeah. So the decision for us to just leave and come here, it was only in one week. And yeah, we just packed and we came.
[i] And I know that in Syria there are a lot of different nations living together and a lot of different religions.
[r] Yes.
[i] And what do you think were the relationship between all the religions? How it was, the atmosphere?
[r] Yeah, normally we did not have any problems before. Maybe there were a few hidden things, which is normal. It happens. Like my parents won’t, you know, they were not… They won’t be very happy if I leave. If I have friends from another nations or another religion. But we had always had the freedom and we had always had the respect for each other. We never had these issues at all before the war. But after the war, and of course, when these problems happened between, you know, the parties and stuff, it was of course politically planned to make these problems between Syrians so they can hate each other. Uh… Then there was, there was real issues. Yes. It was… It was actually disgusting. It was hurting. So much that, you know, we forgot for a second that we lived together for so long and for so many years together. We forgot that. And then we just think of God says this and God says that. But God doesn’t say kill, you know. So… Yeah, it’s the lack of awareness. It’s the fear. It’s the denial that people live in. They’re so scared to admit that what they’re doing is wrong or what religion says is wrong. Or, you know, whatever our leaders say is wrong. It’s the lack of awareness. And maybe from my position, I would say lack of awareness. But maybe some other people, they think they’re right. So actually the truth… After a few years of the war… It was lost. That’s why I wanted to stop listening to the news. Not, of course, politically. I would always have, like, you know… I would always have to analyze what I hear, if it’s correct or if it’s not correct. But the truth is gone. We don’t know what is the truth. We don’t know who’s robbing who, who’s killing who. All we know is, like, it’s a mess. And for me, my country stays my country. I love it. And I’m proud to be Syrian. Till the last day of my life, I’m proud. And because we carry good culture, we carry good hearts. And I think I’m proud also with many Syrians who are in Europe and who are achieving things and doing great things. Because it’s actually a great sign that war doesn’t… doesn’t kill you, you know? It can… It can take your land, it can take your home, but it cannot take you from yourself. And that is important. If we survive, if we’re strong, Syria is strong. Syria is survived. Not… it’s not with the geographically Syria, it’s us. We are… we are Syria.
[i] Well, okay, let’s talk about your departure, about the trip. Do you still remember that moment? When you took the decision, the day when you took the decision that, okay, you have to leave? Can you describe this moment?
[r] Yes. I… I don’t even… I don’t even know what I felt at that moment. I just… I was so numb. I was so numb. That, you know, when you’re hurt and when you… when you come up out of a very bad relationship and you have this reaction and overreacting, it was like that. It was like that for all of us, I think. So, I lost my father and then… and then my visa got rejected and then my dreams were like fading away and I just felt, okay, what are we doing here? And then my husband said, okay, I’m gonna go alone. And I said, no. You go, we go with you. We go, me and my son, we go with you. You die, we die with you. You survive, we survive together. I don’t want to lose anybody else anymore.
[i] His plan was to go alone first and then…
[r] To go alone, yes, yes, yes, yes. And I wouldn’t… I wouldn’t let him do it. He’s like, so what? I’m like, yes, we’re going together. So, yeah. So, we packed our stuff and I didn’t… I didn’t tell anybody. Because I’m very attached to my students. I’m very attached to people. Not to things. Not to objects. Not to… Of course, I miss my house. I miss… I miss the beautiful… The beautiful mornings on my balcony. I miss all these things. But for me, I think it was the most difficult part is to… To be separated from my students, from people I love.
[i] And at that moment, you had your class with your students?
[r] Yeah, yeah. We… I was… I was… I had… I had… Actually, I had a festival that I had to present. And I was wearing black because I lost my father one week ago. And… But I promised them that I’m going to do it. So, I was on stage and I was just talking to my students. And I told them, okay, maybe I will stay in Syria. At that moment, I didn’t know that I’m going to come. I didn’t know that I’m going to… I’m going to come to Europe. It was the last thing in my mind that I would do. And then after that, I came home and we talked, me and my husband. And he’s like, do you really want to live like this? You know? Waiting for the electricity. Waiting for water. And no future. And nothing for our son. Nothing for us. And you know, we are at that age that we’re not too young and we’re not that old. So, we still have maybe the chance to start a new life.
[i] And how old were you at that moment?
[r] Yeah, I was 35, 35, 36. Yeah, 35, 36. So, yeah. Then we called our friends who lived in Sweden. In Germany. And they gave us a number of a smuggler. And we did it the normal way. So, we went to Beirut. And then…
[i] What is the normal way?
[r] Yeah, I will tell you now. So, we went to Beirut. And of course, we were still in touch with the phone call with the guy. Through WhatsApp, of course. And then we went to Turkey. And then from Turkey, we took the boat. It was very… That moment, it was like… I’m not going to say it was funny and scary. It was just weird. It was just weird for us. So, we were in the boat with 40 people. But for some reason, I was just smiling and cracking jokes. Because, yeah, I know how to swim. So, I think it would be fine. I was in a… I used to swim very, very good when I was young. But my son didn’t know. My husband didn’t know. So, I was just a little bit worried about that. But I thought, no, we’re going to make it. And I had this feeling that we’re going to make it. So, I was very positive. Then we arrived to an island. And then we took another big boat. And it was for a few hours. Like 10, 11 hours to Greece. And then from Greece, we made fake IDs. And we went to… We went to the airport. And we speak very good English, me and my son. So, I told my husband, you stay there. And then we decided where to go. Because I don’t know where to go. I didn’t want to go to Germany. I didn’t want to go to Sweden. Where to go? Because there were so many people. I heard so many Syrians there, so many Syrians there. So, I was thinking, okay, where? And I really wanted a place that people can be a little bit more cozy and warm. And then some people were talking about Belgium. And I thought, there are not so many people there. I didn’t think of the three languages that I have to do or… I didn’t think so. My husband was like, okay, so where is it? I’m like, Belgium, Belgium. Okay, fine. Then, yeah, me and my son, we crossed the airport. And then the next day, I went to the commissariat. And there, I just… I realized… Oh, my God. The number of people that were there. They did not even know how to ask for a glass of water or anything. Anything. They were like completely lost. Because for us, it was not strange to come to the airport and travel. Because we’ve done that before. But for some people, it was just like really a big transaction. And it’s like… Especially, you know, the people who are very attached to the land, the farmers. And you just take them from their roots and you just throw them somewhere. And it’s… It’s crazy. So, I was so hurt that day, really. I was… I wasn’t sad for myself because maybe at that moment, I didn’t realize what I’ve done. That I came and I did this, this, all these crazy things in a few days. And my son kept on asking me… Is it going to be okay? Are we going to be fine? You speak English. People understand you. They respect us. So, it should be fine. And it was true.
[i] And how old were your son at that time?
[r] My son at that time, he was 13.
[i] 13?
[r] 13, yeah.
[i] But he learned English in school?
[r] Yeah. He learned English in Dubai. And when we went to Syria, we lived in Syria also for six years. So, I kept on speaking with him English just in case and, you know, in the future, if he wants to go and study abroad, I didn’t want him to forget. So, we speak English all the time. English and Arabic at home. But mostly English with him because I didn’t want him to forget the language. So, it was a good thing. It was positive. And, yeah, then my husband, he followed us in two days. I told him everything is okay. And we had an assistant also in the same way. And she said, yeah, of course, he can come. And I’m like, okay, he will be here maybe in a few days.
[i] So, you just left first with your son?
[r] Yeah, I left first with my son. Because I speak, yeah, my English is better than my husband. And I wanted, like, you know, I think, I don’t know, I think I’m just brave. I can do it. So, I didn’t think, okay, he’s there, he’s not there. I just want to make sure that, you know, we are in a safe platform and what’s the situation. Because he had also problems with his back. He had very bad problems with his back before we leave. So, I had to make sure that we have a good place, you know, to sleep. And so, he doesn’t have to come and be shocked.
[i] And you were not worried that, like, he can be left in different countries?
[r] No.
[i] Or that the way will be difficult?
[r] No, no, because I love people. No matter what you are, no matter where you come from, I always felt that I’m not only Syrian. I can be an international. You know, I can be an international person. I didn’t have any fear of me being here at all. I lived also with many Westerners. I had Westerners friends when I was in Dubai. So, yeah, of course, the culture is a little bit different. But at the end of the day, we’re all humans. So, the moment people see you positive and you’re nice and kind and there is peace, everyone will be okay with you. You just start that with a smile. That’s all. Yeah.
[i] And now, how long, how many hours or days was the whole trip? Did it take you to go, like, from Aleppo till…
[r] Yeah. We left from Masht al-Hilu, actually. Masht al-Hilu is only half an hour drive to the borders of Lebanon. And then, yeah, on the borders, of course, it took us a very long time, like four, five hours. Normally, we arrive to Beirut in one hour. But because of the, you know, a lot of investigations and stuff. Luckily, my husband is a poet and he had always poetry concerts in Beirut. So, for him, it was normal that he can go and come back. And they know us because we have constantly, like, either he’s on TV or he has a book signature. So, it was kind of normal. So, they didn’t doubt. Because if they doubt, then they won’t allow you. So, four, five hours. Then we stayed in Beirut for two, three days because you have to also wait until the smuggler tells you, OK, now it’s safe. You can do it. We cannot do it.
[i] And where did you stay? In a hotel?
[r] Yeah. We stayed in a hotel. Yeah. We stayed in a hotel. And then after that, we took another hotel in Istanbul. And then we went to another … another city that is on the coast. So, we have to get the boat. But the first try wasn’t good. So, the smuggler called us, like, no, it’s not safe. Go on another one or the next day. So, we did that. And that was, like, four hours in the sea. And then the other one that was with the big ship, it was for 10 to 11 hours, something like that. And then in Greece, I had to stay two days because I didn’t know where to go. I was thinking which country I have to choose. And then in two days, I went to the airport. And then it was for a few hours. But I was scared. I was very scared to fly from Greece to Belgium. I was really, really scared. I felt, oh, my God, you know, I don’t want anything bad to happen. I don’t want people to think that we are, you know… I just felt bad. I just felt like, you know, we’re like thieves. We’re doing something wrong. But the moment we landed, it was cool. People were nice. They were smiling. People were smiling. That was the first thing I noticed. People smile and say hello. And for us, that was a little bit strange. Yeah, so almost, like, let’s say in total, like, something like that. Something like eight days, ten days, something like that.
[i] Sleeping for four days in the hotel.
[r] Yes, yes.
[i] And what was the most difficult or different, like, during this, the whole trip, the most difficult part?
[r] To see Syrians sleeping in the street.
[i] The street of which one?
[r] The street. It was in Greece, in the hotel. Just right in front of me. And people had tents and people were just sleeping in the park. And that was hard. That was very hard for me to see. But yeah, when we had the chance, we had some money that we got that, you know, we could fly. But some people, they walked. Some people died in the way, you know. So all these things, I was thinking about them, but I didn’t want to think about them much because that would definitely stop me. And tell me, oh no, you’re risking your family’s life. No. There was no choice or there was no second thought for me that I would think negative. I wanted to think positive that I’m going to arrive and things are going to be fine and I’m just going to start a new life. But that part was the hardest. People’s fear, people’s pale faces. The children. There was one thing that was also very, very hurting. When I was going by car from Masht al-Hulu to the Lebanese border. At that time, I think it was Eid. It was one of the religious festivals or something. And I saw small children. On the way. Carrying guns as toys. All the kids. And I thought, okay, maybe one or two. But all the kids. I mean, like, what are we teaching our children? And I was like, okay, no, I don’t regret for leaving. At that moment, this is how I thought that I don’t regret this. Because when we see our children who are five years old, four years old. Holding guns and they’re very happy to play with it. This is dangerous. War is hard. But after war is harder. So, that was… I still remember. I still remember that scene. The kid was just bare feet. He was just playing in the street. And he just had that big gun that was like even bigger than his head. And he was just playing with that with his friends.
[i] And the crossing the borders and the procedures of crossing the border, were they difficult for you?
[r] Not really. When they don’t doubt you, no. And I think, luckily, we had this first impression. When people see us, they feel comfortable. So, I was just talking normally the way I used to fly from one country to the other. So, it wasn’t. But I was afraid, yeah.
[i] But during every procedure of crossing the border, you were always telling that you were fleeing from the war.
[r] Yes, yes, yes. Of course. .. But in Greece, no. We said in the airport, we said that we were going to visit. But nobody asked much because we were just talking in English. Me and my son. And we were just laughing. And, yeah, we had this really happy scene that everything is good. And, yeah. And my son also was small. He wasn’t big. Now, maybe if he was bigger or taller than me the way he is now, maybe they would doubt. But at that time, no. No. Yeah. So, I was lucky. I was lucky, yeah.
[i] Do you still remember the moment when you were saying goodbye to your friends? Or you didn’t say to anyone at all?
[r] No. I called one… I called one student. She was very close to my heart and I was very afraid that because she was super sensitive, I was very afraid that she would be very upset with me and I wouldn’t forgive myself. So, I just told her I might leave. I’m not sure. But I might leave. And… And I don’t want you to cry because I’m sure that I will come back and I will definitely see you. It was… It was difficult. I didn’t want to say goodbye. Because I know the moment I see them and I see them crying, I will not leave. I will go back.
[i] So, it was planned not to say goodbye?
[r] No. Yeah. And I know most of them, they were shocked that I left. And I talked to them and it took me some time that I could apologize from them. But all of them understood. I… They… They all… They all told me, we know that you are very ambitious and you should, of course, take care of your family and… I had a son. Otherwise, if my son wasn’t there, maybe I would stay. I would fight. I don’t… I don’t care. But my son… Worrying about my son, to be without school, to be without education, to be part of that craziness, let’s say, made me really afraid. I had to keep quiet. I had to be very careful of what I say and how I think. Because nobody would like it. And for my son, that was the first step. That was the first priority for me. That’s why we came. Otherwise, I think me and my husband, we would have stayed and fought. Yeah, fought with artem. I wouldn’t hold a gun. I can’t do it. I can’t even kill a cockroach. So… But just to be free yourself, to be free in thoughts and… Just to be free, you know. Yeah.
[i] And your husband, did he have some job also at that moment when you were leaving?
[r] No. No. Because all the jobs at that time, they were… And he was also very sick. He had a back problem, but he was writing a lot. He published two books. Of course, he did them in the UNESCO Palace in Beirut. He couldn’t publish his books in Syria. And although there was nothing really political, but I think the media in our country is very … It takes sides. It’s not fair enough, you know, to appreciate the good artists, let’s say. So he was busy with poetry to keep him alive, as we say. He’s also an engineer, but yeah, he loved poetry, of course, more. So yeah, he was just busy with his poetry. He was also a member in the municipality in Mashtar Helu. And of course, because… He’s not a corrupt, so he didn’t play a big role there much. They didn’t want him to play a big role. He was elected to become the mayor, but because he wasn’t in any political parties, that’s why they shut him down, but it was okay for us. We didn’t care. Yeah. Just that.
[i] And did you have to leave your own house?
[r] Yes, we left everything. Everything. We sold a few things also so we can just come. We borrowed also some money because, yeah, at that moment it’s difficult, you know, to arrange money and you don’t have a job, you don’t have income, you don’t have anything. So it was tough to leave beautiful things behind you, beautiful memories, but yeah, that was all not very important. What was important is us because we want to continue life. We want to continue what we started. And there was no way to do that in Syria anymore.
[i] So at the moment of leaving, you were already sure that you were not coming back or did you have some hope?
[r] No. No. Yeah, it’s sad.
[i] And when you were leaving in Syria, what were your ideas about Europe, your image of Europe in general?
[r] Yeah, we always knew that Europe is a very civilized country, especially that when religion is separated from politics, civilization comes. My grandfather, my aunts, they all studied religion abroad. My husband’s brothers, they studied abroad. Both doctors, they studied abroad. So we have a good idea of, let’s say, not a good idea of living there. It’s just that we have a good image about living in Europe. It’s civilized. The… yeah, there is not a very big social life the way we have it in Syria.
[i] Which way is it different?
[r] I think people here are more concerned about themselves and their life in a very close circle. With us, it’s not like that. It’s different. And I think maybe because people there, they have more time, although we used to… some Syrians, they used to have two jobs in the same day and they will… they’re very productive and they achieve a lot, you know? But also they have their social life. Like I remember we used to finish work and then go and party on a Monday or on a Wednesday. And Saturday, Sunday, of course we do it. We party like till the morning, you know? So… but here it’s not like that. Here is different. Here I think the procedure of life is like a little bit slower, more organized, and you can achieve maybe like one or two goals in a long time. But there, it was faster. And so when we came here, it was like… Okay guys, I’m gonna have a heart attack, this is taking so long, so long… And they’re like.. Yeah, rustig [quiet]. That’s the first word. Rustig. Everything takes time. Yes, everything takes time and you should just… just like [name], relax. Everything is gonna be okay. It’s just gonna take time. And I realized that, actually, in just few months ago. Because it takes time to adapt the atmosphere, not the culture or people. No, that was fine with us, like we didn’t have problems with people. It’s just that the life procedure, the life routine, until it gets to your system, it’s still… my system rejects it sometimes, I go crazy, but it’s a fact. And I’m living here now, so I have to adapt. I adapt the good things, not… I try still to stay myself and I still try to do things fast and work on so many things at the same time. It’s just that I do it with less stress because I know things take time, but at least you reach what you want. And here the good thing is like if you have a right, you will not lose it. That’s the good thing.
[i] Do you remember the first day of arriving in Antwerp? And why Antwerp in Belgium?
[r] Yes, the first day I arrived I was in Brussels and then they transferred us to Boom. Boom is a beautiful place, but very boring. So 5 o’clock nobody walks in the street and I’m just not used to that. I love silence, but not dead silence, you know. And what I did after one week, I was just checking online because I wanted to finish my studies in film. I checked online. I’m like, okay, I’m going to look for a film school and it has to be in English. And I want to continue because I really don’t want to get into depression and feel low and feel down. I didn’t want to get to that because I know if the moment I surrender to that, I’m going to get collapsed. So I did. I found a film school. I sent a nice motivation letter to a really beautiful director of the film school IFT in Antwerp. She was an American lady and I asked her for an interview. So after sending the motivation letter, I told her I’m also a teacher. I’m really interested also maybe in teaching and also studying. And I did not have papers at that time. Nothing. So she gave me an email. She said, yeah, why don’t you come and meet? And where is the school? It’s in Antwerp. I don’t know Antwerp. I don’t know how to get to Antwerp. And for me, it was also very strange that we have to use public transport. I never used public transport in my country. I always had my car. So I took the public transport. It took me maybe three hours to get to Antwerp. I was so lost. It was a long, long time to Antwerp. Yes, it was. Yeah, it’s the first time. And I’m like, damn it, I don’t know the roads. And the GPS was like somehow crazy because I think there were some constructions in the street. So it gives you a right. And then when you’re right, then it says, no, you have to go left. So it was all the mess. By the time I arrived, I was very happy. But luckily, because my husband is so much on time, he told me you have to leave three hours before. Because you never know. What if you don’t know the place? And he was right. So I was on time. I arrived to the school and I had the conversation with [name]. Very nice lady. So, yeah, I spoke to her for two hours. And I explained to her. I told her, look, I don’t have papers. I don’t have money. And I really want to continue my studies in film. All I can do for you is to get you my grades from Murdoch. From Murdoch University. I had very good grades. They were all in the 90s. I really worked really hard. So I really want to finish. She’s like, yeah, maybe you have to get one year less. I’m like, I don’t have a problem. She’s like, yeah, but this is like a… It’s an expensive school. I’m like, yeah, well, I don’t have the money. But all I can say, if you give me the chance to be part of the school, I’m going to make the school really proud. I know I can do a lot of things, you know. So she’s like, OK, I will speak to the owner of the school and I will let you know. And then when I left, I knew that it’s not going to work. I’m like, OK, she’s really nice. But if the school is very expensive and it’s private schools, how are they going to accept? And the rest of the schools are all in Dutch or in French. I can’t do it. So I was like, for one week I was feeling down. And that day I was like so angry and sad. And then I get a call. It was like 10 o’clock, I remember. And she’s like, hi, [name], this is [name]. And yes, you got a scholarship to study in the school. And you don’t have to lose one semester or one year. And she’s like, just get your grades from Murdoch and everything will be OK. And you can join us in October. And that was in September. And, you know, I came to Belgium in August. And then I got the approval in September. And then in October, second October, I joined the school. So, oh, my God, that was so amazing. And I had a great time with the school. By the time I graduated, I made really good friends, which I still have. So it was like kind of healing, really. Like I was busy all the time. I was like busy with films and learning so many things. But it was also completely a different vision of art. And also in the school, there were a mixture of students. Not only like, you know, Belgians, but they’re like also from another country. So it was so beautiful to be with such an amazing group of people. I never cared of sharing who I am. Or, yeah, I came from Syria. Ta-ta-ta. This was the story. I came by boat. And I always used to say it with a smile. And they were like, you came by boat? For them, it was really, you know, shocking. But, yeah, you know, as long as we didn’t get killed, we’re still alive. We can smile. We can laugh. We can… So it was really the best time of my life.
[i] How long did you study in this school?
[r] I did until it was from October. And then I graduated in April. So like one full… Let’s say one full year. It was great. Really, really great experience. I filmed my music video in Antwerp. It was my second music video. And it was about a home. It was in Arabic. And my friends, they helped me, you know, to do the camera work and everything. It was really amazing. Because we had to choose an artist to go and make a music video. It was a project. And they’re like, damn it. I don’t know anybody. And what am I going to do? And then a friend of mine is like, you’re a singer, right? You sing. I’m like, yeah. He’s like, then make a music video for yourself. I’m like, oh, you’re so… It was a relief. And then, yeah, my friends, they were not sure if I sing good or, you know… Because many people, they say, okay, I sing, you know, and then it’s not good. So I’m like, okay, guys, before you make decision that you want to work with me, just… I will send you a link of my work. And then if you like it, then we do it. So, yeah, they liked it. And we did the music video. It was a big success. And, yeah, after that, we did some short films. I did my short film. And I got the chance before graduating to show my graduation project to… By chance to VRT Rudi Vranx. I met Rudi Vranx. I didn’t know who was Rudi Vranx. I just got an email from VRT Canvas that, yeah, you have… A meeting. We want to have a meeting with you. And then I went and I showed it to my teacher at the school. She’s like, who sent you this? I’m like, I don’t know. This looks TV. What is this? She’s like, are you crazy? This is one of the best channels. And it’s Rudi Vranx. It’s… And I was like, all over the world, you know. But, yeah, of course, I went and I met them. And they said, okay, then we make documentaries. And, yeah, if you can make a documentary. I wanted to make a documentary actually about my life and my brother’s life in Syria. But at that time, I just received my residence. So we had to move and we had a lot of financial problems and a lot of stress. So I apologized on the project and I had to stop everything because, yeah, my family comes first. And we had to settle down, look for jobs and start Netherlands classes because I was already late because of my school. And, yeah, so I had to stop that for some time. Then we decided, my husband decided to open a small Syrian restaurant. And that came only when I was in the film school. We did short films and we did catering. So my husband, he said, okay, I cook for you. And he just started cooking just three years ago, four years ago only. But my friends liked his food so much and they said, oh my God, this is so good, you should guys think about it. And my husband said, yeah, by the time I learn the language and I want to work as an engineer, I’m going to be like maybe 50 years old. Why don’t we do something now? I’m like, go for it. And then we looked for a small restaurant. And then… Yeah, also very difficult situation. Five months until we got the license for the… to get the license, you know, to open a restaurant. And we didn’t have money. We had to borrow money from friends to make it like really nice and cozy. So we did the decoration ourselves. We… everything, almost everything. And then we started with falafel because we heard that people here appreciate the vegetarian food. And there is falafel, falafel tof and beni falafel, which we went there. We tasted the food and we think that our falafel is a little bit different. It’s tasty. It’s a little bit different. So we started that. People liked the food so much. And there was an article about us after some time. So we’re busy with that. We couldn’t do anything with art anymore or with… We just… transferred our art into food. Share our culture with food. Present our artistic skills with food. How to present the food and how to talk to the customers. And our restaurant was very small. It was called Dilbi Falafel. It was very small, but it was so nice that people would come to you. And you just feel like they’re guests. They’re coming to your house. And you just talk to them and ask them what do you feel about the food. And then share a few small stories. I love talking to people. So share stories, share experience with them. It was really nice experience also with them. But it was also very hectic. A lot of taxes. A lot of procedures. No break. Monday we had like one day off. And we had to follow up with paperwork. And a lot of things. A lot of stress.
[i] And you had to stop.
[r] Yeah, then we had to stop because my husband… We stopped in June. Because it was Ramadan. And at that time the people in our area, they’re fasting. So we thought, okay, let’s take a break. Because it’s been a year and a half and we need a break. So we stopped for 15 days. And within those 15 days, my husband, I think because he was very tired. He used to work 14, 15 hours a day. So he felt really sick. So then we thought, okay, let’s make it another 15 days. So it’s one month. By the time the fasting is over, then we open again. And then he couldn’t anymore. He couldn’t get up. And he was psychologically also like very tired. And we felt at that moment everything that we’ve been going through hit us at that time. Just because we had some time to rest, it hit us. Can you imagine how bad it was? And then I told him, okay, I think we really have to see a doctor. So we went. We saw a doctor. He said, yeah, you really need to do a surgery. So we have to stop the rest. Because, yeah, I’m not the chef. I don’t cook like him. I cook, but I’m not professional like him. And he said, yeah, what are we going to do? I’m like, we stop. We just stop. Because for me, I’m sorry, I’m not going to risk my life coming from Syria to here to die out of stress. To die out of work. To die out of paying bills and stressing out about that. Everything will be okay. We crossed that dangerous part. We can do this also. So for him, it was very, very difficult to make this step that, no, we have to close. And I told him, we will reopen again. It’s just that now your health is a priority. We need you. So, yeah, I made the decision. And I said, okay, we’re going to do it. And then, yeah, he was home. And, of course, we were doing tests and going to the hospital. It took us like three months to do some analysis to him and tests and a lot of things to make sure that he really wants to do the surgery. And then, at that time, I had projects with the theater. I was busy with the theater. So it was kind of like, mentally, I wasn’t okay to perform, to do anything in art because everything in me was like so down. But somehow, people around, I had good people that were pushing, you know, go ahead, do it. So, yeah. But my husband, just a few days ago, he just did his surgery. And now it’s good. Of course, he’s in a little bit of pain, but he needs some time to recover. And then we will look, hopefully, for another location. Because through all this time, even before I come here, our customers keep on calling us, when are you guys going to open? Are you guys open? We want a book. So it feels really good that people still remember us. So it means that we made a success. And we have to continue. So we just wait until he’s better. And then we continue that.
[i] How do you think of planning to combine these things, your career and working there?
[r] Yes, actually, it is not easy to work in the horeca [hospitality sector]. It’s like working hours. For me, I’m a very hardworking woman. I’m not tired of working. Especially that my job is there, which is to communicate with people and serve food and make phone calls and emails. So it’s okay. And also, for us, in our culture, we have hospitality. And really, our customers, they were our guests. So if I have friends or if I have guests who want to come and… have food, I would just invite them to the restaurant. It’s my home. And also, I believe. Because to make good food, from the experience I had, a very short experience, that you have to be generous and you need to have a good taste. And when you’re an artist, you already have a good taste. So when you transfer that into food, into a beautiful image, and then share your feelings and your culture within the food, because everyone loves food, then that is, I think, closer to reach people’s heart. And by the way, the projects, the theater projects or the work that I got as an artist, it was through my restaurant. Because I got the first offer from [name] to work in Mothersong with Mokhalad Rasem, the Iraqi director. And Mokhalad, he was one of our customers. And there we shared, okay, he’s an Iraqi director, he’s a theater maker. And we talked and we discussed. And then I got the opportunity from him, you know, to work in the theater. And many other people. It’s all got through the restaurant. So for some time, I was a little bit afraid that this job might take me away from what I love. But no, it wasn’t like that.
[i] And in terms of timing?
[r] No time to breathe. Yeah, it was, there was no time to breathe. The first, I had, the project with Mothersong, I had to be outside Belgium, in Austria, for a month and a half. So my husband had to get someone to help him. And it was really tough for him because at that time there were like a lot of customers and he was tired. But yeah, I had to perform in the theater. And it wasn’t, it wasn’t a normal piece. It was emotional. It was me singing and acting. I wasn’t directing this time. So it’s like somehow different. And I really needed my full concentration on this project because I felt it’s my opportunity now to put one step, you know, into the art world here in Belgium. A lot of sacrifices, but I have a great family who support me, even if they, even if they’re so tired, even him or my son. They were so tired. It was really stressful time for them. But anytime I call them, I was in Austria, they just tell me, you just be okay. We’re fine. We’re doing okay. Do it. Go ahead. So that was a great support for me. They’re very, very understanding family I have behind me. Then of course I came back and then work again. But yeah, very hectic, very tough, very tough job.
[i] So you said that the first performance was in Tunnel House?
[r] Yes.
[i] And then how did it, how did it go after that?
[r] It went, it went great actually. During the time of the rehearsals and the performance, I was back to my childhood. To those nights when I was eight or nine, I would wake up 3am asking my grandfather to put for me opera or a certain movie that I love, Sound of Music or whatever behind my grandmother because she would, she was like, she would be strict that I have to sleep at eight. But I would wake up at three and watch all these things. So that time it really brought me back home. And to my childhood. And, and I think I used the knowledge that I had. I think the knowledge that you have in your childhood, it’s like a stone. That’s how we call it in Syria. So it’s like, it’s like, it’s like a sculpture and it’s in you. And it’s unconscious. It just comes out. Because it’s like really well taught, you know, you’re raised with those things. And it was very also emotional period for me because I was resting a lot. And I’m not used to that. Because with the director, he’s very, he’s a very relaxing director. He’s, he doesn’t put pressure on us. He wants us all to fly, to be happy, to express ourselves. It was, there was a lot of improvisation. And, and that was really beautiful. Because you can express yourself the way you feel it. He just says something and then you do it the way you feel it. And how great is that? And I made really great friends with my, with the beautiful three actresses who I worked with. Two of them were Austrian and one was German, German Italian. And then a beautiful dancer. A British Turkish Tijan. A very good friend of mine also. And the audience, amazing. It was great experience for me that I was only singing in Arabic. Difficult songs, traditional songs with no translation. And 99% of the audience were Westerners. And, and the kind of reactions I had. It was really so warm and so heart … It touched my heart so much. So it was really, it was really, really great. And it took me some time actually after I finished the premiere in Antwerp. To get out mother’s song from my system. Because it’s, it was really deep inside. And after the performance I was, I was just 10 days in bed. I was sick and tired. Because I think I used all the emotions I have throughout maybe my life. Let’s say. In that, in that project. And the success and the love of people. And then through that I also had an opportunity to meet the director of Arenberg. And she gave me the chance. To make a beautiful concert. Just last week. Called Absence. Arenberg wanted to support me also with my future theatrical project. Musical project. Which I would like to direct and perform. Hopefully next year. And this concert was a great happiness for me and for my husband. Also my husband. He was going through health issues. And psychological issues of course. Because he is not working. And for a long time. But it made us so happy. Me and him and my son. To the extent that we just wake up with a smile. Because we felt we are still alive. You know. And I am very happy that it was very, very successful evening. And working now on other projects. Also working on my short film. And always busy.
[i] And that was the first time that you were singing in Belgium?
[r] Yes. It was the first time I was singing in Belgium. But the previous September in 2017 I had a music concert in Germany. In Assen. I can’t remember the name. Assen something. Yeah. I had a concert there in the church. In the Catholic church. With the Damaste duo band. And it was really also a beautiful one. But I thought it was just something cozy. It was my best friend who arranged it. And she said please come. We want to just feel home again. And I sang and I thought okay. Maybe that’s it. But I didn’t expect it. That I would be on stage singing and acting. And this theatrical project gave me so much. So much power. So much energy. That yeah. I want to do more and more.
[i] And you always sing in Arabic.
[r] I sing in English. I sing also with other languages. Even if I don’t understand. For me. For me singing. It’s just that it’s the way how you feel. How you express yourself. But here in Belgium or in Europe in general. I would like to sing in Arabic. I would like to sing Syrian. I want to touch people’s heart in a different way. Not with the words that they know. With the words that I know. With the feelings that we could share together.
[i] And do you think it’s important during the concert to do the translation of the songs?
[r] Yes. I did now in my previous concert. Because it wasn’t acting. It was only singing. So I felt it’s important that people would understand a little bit of what I’m saying. Because then it’s closer for them. Because here in Europe or I noticed something in Belgium. It’s very important. Because people ask questions. And they want to know. They’re curious. So if they’re curious and they’re interested. Why not? It’s good to respect their curiosity and their interest in your language. And just enjoy it more. And they did. They enjoyed it more. With the traditional songs I didn’t do translation much. Because you really cannot translate. Otherwise you will lose the meaning. And you really, really cannot translate it literally. But with something like a little bit modern songs. It was possible to translate it in a really poetic way. So people would understand. And it’s very important for me. Also people would understand what I say.
[i] Is there some specific genre that you prefer? Or you use a lot of different genres?
[r] As long as it’s not cheap. With lyrics and music. Then I would sing it. I would always want to go to the high quality. Always. Not a quantity. I could have sang for… Maybe two hours. But that’s not what I want. I want one hour. Good one. Eight songs let’s say. Very good ones. And people ask for more. Instead of doing two hours. And people getting bored. And just… Oh my God. When is it going to finish? So for me… Five minutes that are very, very productive. Are more important than hours. This is how…
[i] And you used to work in opera before?
[r] No. No. Never. No.
[i] You just learned in the…
[r] Yeah. I had private classes. In piano classes when I was small. I used to give my teacher so much trouble. Because I would never… It’s not that I would never listen. But I was stubborn. And the thing is… I used to think that… It’s not with the notes. It’s not what you’re teaching me. You have to teach me more than that. You have to give me feelings. And you know… And then I would hear something. Let’s say from TV. And I just come and play it. And she’s like… No. Don’t follow that. Do this. Do that. And that’s something that I didn’t like. It took me some time to take the courage to tell her. Okay. I want to stop the classes. I was 13. Then I told her I want to stop the classes. And then I started learning myself. And then because I wanted to teach in… In… In the school in Dubai I had to of course get a diploma. So I went to a private institution in Aleppo. And I did an exam. And I got a diploma in music. So I can… I can teach. And yeah. Those people who gave me the diploma also they saw me performing few times also. In my piano concerts. I was like seven the first time I performed. And singing concerts also. But yeah. I had to do an exam. So it’s like officially I can… teach… You know… music or… Yeah. It was like that.
[i] And… can you play some musical instrument also?
[r] Yes. I play piano. I play piano. Yes.
[i] And did you do some concerts playing and singing?
[r] I did… Yeah. No. Not… Not yet actually. I’m… I’m planning… I’m planning on doing that. Because I love piano so much. And also… When I sing I love piano playing next to me with… Just… Just one instrument or two. Or… I don’t like more. Even like with one instrument, I’m very happy. Yeah, maybe in the future I will do that because I really like to do that, yes.
[i] And your son is also the same musical as you? He has a very good musical ear. He used to play violin for one year. And then, yeah, he just… I think he’s in a little bit difficult age. He’s 17 now. So he’s also a little bit lazy. So he’s not sure whether he wants to continue or not. He’s also more into photography. He likes to take photos and videos. So he has it somewhere, but he doesn’t have to be like me or like his father. He’s free. He can do whatever he wants and whatever he loves.
[i] And he’s studying in high school?
[r] Yeah, he’s studying in high school now.
[i] In Dutch?
[r] Yes, in Dutch. He speaks very good Dutch. Me, I’m still in process. I hope I can… yeah, I hope I can learn as soon as possible. It’s just that language takes time. That’s something I know. And I had to stop in between because of my project and because of the restaurant. A year and a half we couldn’t go follow classes. But now I’m back and I really want to learn and speak very good Dutch the way I speak my mother language. It’s very important for me. And I love languages also.
[i] Do you speak some other languages also?
[r] I speak, yeah, with Arabic, English, I speak Armenian. I’m half Armenian also. I used to speak French. I understand very good, but I still cannot reply. I used to speak a little bit of Turkish, but not anymore. Because when you don’t practice the language… And now, een beetje Nederlands [a bit Dutch].
[i] And in which school are you learning Dutch?
[r] I’m learning in CVO. CVO Antwerpen in Deurne. Beautiful school with amazing teachers.
[i] And is it difficult, Dutch, for you, the language?
[r] At the beginning, when I first came to Belgium, and I would hear people speaking, I’m like, what is that? It wasn’t familiar. But then after, because I started my Dutch lesson after one year, because I was following the film school. So, when people speak, for me, it was familiar later on. Then I know, okay, this is a sentence, this is a word, this is a… This is how they say. “G”. Not “Gû” Not “Rû”. You know. So, it took me some time. And I need to hear a lot. I need to listen. And then when I followed the class, I didn’t find it difficult. It’s just that the most important thing to learn a language, from my experience, that… Of course, to listen a lot. And also to think. The way the people who speak the language think. Don’t think English and translate. Then it’s not going to work. This is what I do. So, it’s just going to take some time. But I’m very, very interested in the language. I’m trying my best.
[i] And how was it for your son in the beginning, when you moved here? Did he go to school straight away?
[r] Yeah, he went to school straight away. I’m very grateful to the schools. The teachers here are so nice. So nice. The principal. And you feel, actually, the politeness of people, of Europeans. Actually, it comes from the school. Because the teachers are so polite. They’re so sweet. They’re so nice. There is not even once that I had an issue. Or my son had a problem with the school. At all. And that’s why sometimes, you know, I’m surprised when I see people who are born here in Belgium or in Europe. They go and they bomb. You’re raised here. You’re born here. You go to these nice schools. Teachers… The first thing they teach you is to respect. To love. To care. To share. And then you behave like that. For my son, it was very tough. That he was away from his friends. And he was 13. It was difficult. It was tough. But when he went to the school, it was good because he could also speak in English. So people can understand. It’s not like his other friends who would speak only Arabic or other languages. Let’s say, Afrikaans or Russian. And they just cannot communicate at all. So for him, it was a little bit easier.
[i] He was communicating in English.
[r] Yeah. Yeah. He was communicating in English. And the teachers were so sweet. And they had a lot of patience with him. And they took care of him. And the other children also. And after a few months, he would speak. And now when I hear him speaking, it’s like… I feel proud because he speaks like Belgians. I think for children, it’s a little bit easier. But yeah. It’s good. When I ask him to teach me, he makes fun of me. So, I think I should do it myself.
[i] But in the way of relationship with his friends or was it… did you feel like that it was difficult for him to make friends?
[r] Yes. It wasn’t difficult because of the nature of the people. I think it was difficult because he had to go a few classes lower than his age. And you know, when they are teenagers and they are in a younger class and they are offended. And then they get communicated with their friends from home. And they are like, yeah, which grade are you? And then like… but the kids don’t understand. So, it took him some time to adapt and to understand this. But now he is doing fine. He is also a very… he is a very quiet child. Not like me. I’m not quite. So, he is a very quiet child. For me it was difficult at the beginning to pull it out of his mouth. Are you alright? He is like, yeah, everything is okay. But yeah, I don’t know what is going on. And then, yeah, after some time I understood he was just a little bit stressed that he has to be with children younger than him. And then after that he had to make choice which field he has to do. And it took him like two years. Because, you know, at that age it is very confusing to decide. But then I told him it is okay. Yeah, you don’t have to stress. You have the time of your life. Of course, not that to be lazy. But you have the time to think and you try. And when you don’t like it, you can do something else. We are not going to do the same mistake like our parents did, you know. Force you to do something that you don’t love at the end of the day. But, yeah. I think now he is doing very good.
[i] So now he thinks he will study photography? Yeah, he is not very, very sure about it. Because if he wants to do, let’s say, cinematography, then of course he has to finish his high school and then follow the school. So for now he is doing something related to architect. So it is a mixture of science and art. And then after that we will see. For me, I would love to. That he will do cinematography. Then I don’t have to hire… Of course, I will still pay him. But I don’t have to hire, you know, others to work with me. Then it is my son. Then it is good. Then I am proud of him, you know. But, yeah, we shall see. I will not force him. Whatever he likes, whatever he feels that he wants to do, I will definitely support him 100%.
[i] And do you feel already that you are integrated in the Belgian society?
[r] Yes, long time ago.
[i] Do you still remember that moment of feeling that you belong?
[r] Yes, yes. I will tell you when. When I went to Austria for a month and a half to prepare the rehearsals for the mother’s song, I really, I felt I really miss Antwerp. I want to come back. It was strange. Of course not. Not because my family is here and my friends. No, but I was just missing the streets. I was missing the smell of Antwerp. I was missing home. I was missing my restaurant. I was just missing the atmosphere here. And on the day of my premiere in Antwerp, normally I am not nervous. I was nervous at the premiere here in Antwerp. Although I performed so many times in Austria and so many times in Italy. And then the last two performances were in Antwerp. And the first day I was so nervous because I think it was my family my friends and everyone and it’s Antwerp you know it’s the it’s it’s like it’s like home you know and then you have to be good you have to prove yourself and all these things so I was a little bit nervous that day but yeah it went really amazing and got really positive reviews and positive reactions from the friends and from the family also and from the audience.
[i] That’s when you felt that you…
[r] That’s there when I felt that yeah this is home.
[i] And what are the plans now for your career?
[r] Yeah for the time being I have a few projects to do. I’m planning on directing a short film. Hopefully with “Famos” And then I’m working also to direct and perform a musical, future musical with Arenberg. And a few projects here and there, a few concerts here and there. So … for the time being, yeah, I have so much to do. And, very important, my Dutch classes. Follow that also.
[i] Which level are you know?
[r] Now I am in 2.3, 2.4. Yes, I’m trying hard. I’m doing two levels at the same time.
[i] Wow, so fast.
[r] Yeah, I want to do it. I really want to speak because I want to be closer to people, you know. I want to be closer to my friends or to the audience. I think when I speak Dutch, then I’m closer.
[i] And do you already try to speak Dutch?
[r] Yeah, yeah, I try. I try sometimes, yes. I try because I have to practice so then I can speak. But with me, because I’m difficult and I’m a very perfectionist, I want to do everything very good. And when I don’t have the words to speak, then I twist into English. But yeah, that’s wrong, I know. But yeah, I hope one day I can… I can speak very good. And I’m… it’s in my plan and I want to do it hopefully within this year and the next year. Because it takes time. It really takes time.
[i] And do you have a lot of friends among Belgian people?
[r] Yes, yes, I have. And I have good friends. Very… people who have warm hearts. Heart of gold, let’s say. And in my last concert, I was so happy that most of them were there and I just felt that they’re my family. And they were just there to support me and whatever I do, whatever I go, they are there. So I think I’m lucky, yeah.
[i] And what are the ways that you met these people, your friends?
[r] Yeah, I met them either through… at the beginning through refugee organizations. And through film school, through filming, through singing, through restaurant. A lot. A lot of them. Yeah, it was like that only, yes.
[i] Do you have a good contact with the Syrian community in Antwerp?
[r] Yes. Yes, not a big one. Not a very big. Just a few people. And that also was through our restaurant. They come and then we talk. I don’t have many Syrian friends, I have only a few. Most of my friends are more Belgians. I think Syrians are still hiding, so I hope they can just come out more and be more positive. And what I know is that normally Syrians, they want to work, they want to be productive. And most of the people I met here, they really want to do something, which I’m also proud of them. No matter what, they are not too much into just having money from the government and sitting home. No, they really want to work and be productive and just become something.
[i] And can you tell about something that was very different for you in living in Belgium, something that was different in comparison to Syria or to Dubai in the way people maybe act or communicate or in the culture?
[r] In the culture, I think I liked it. I like that people are somehow calm when they deal with their problems. They don’t overreact with the way we overreact. For example, maybe crying is different than the crying in Syria. When you lose someone, we are more into overreacting and wailing and whining loud. And yeah, they do these things. Of course, in some part of Syria, not everyone. But in Syria, we are more emotional. And in pain and in sorrow and in happiness, we are together, big families, all together, friends, families. Maybe in a wedding, it’s like 300, 400, 500 people in your wedding and you invite everyone. But in Belgium, it’s different. People are more close and it’s like a small circle. And also, for example, if you want to visit your best friends in Syria, you can just go pass by and just say, okay, get dressed. I’m waiting for you downstairs. Here, you can’t do that. It takes me a while to speak to my best friend, just to message and say, okay, hey, let’s meet up. Okay, [name], maybe in two weeks or three weeks. Like, what the hell? I’m your best friend. And you’re just like, yeah, [name], you’re not in Syria, you know? So things like that. Of course my friends are used to me now Sometimes I tell them, don’t do it, you know, just come, come over, let’s do this, let’s do that. But yeah, it’s difficult because it’s the way of life. It’s the system, it’s how they were raised and they were born, you know, it’s not like us. And also here, what was shocking, like a city like Antwerp, five o’clock, six o’clock, all the shops are closed. In Syria, we don’t have that. People are open. The restaurants are open, the shops are open till the morning. And now, even the time of war, the bomb comes after half an hour, people are partying. So it’s life, you know, it’s like action, action all the time. But here, no, it’s not like that. And this is what I miss a lot in my country. I don’t know if it’s like lack of activities, it’s lack of, I don’t know. Also, with cultural festivals, I mean, maybe I don’t know all the cultural festivals here in Belgium. Now I’m getting to know them through the theater. Luckily, luckily, I’m happy that I got to know some people in the theater. Then I know about some functions. But let’s say our cultural festivals are like really rich with poetry, dancing, ballet, our traditional dances, our singers are, yeah, it’s like a lot. But here, for example, I saw few, um… It’s not like a festival. Maybe like some functions in the street, just it was just only games, and frituue [chip shop]. Okay frituur maybe it’s the food. Okay, that’s understandable. But let’s say you can do more, you know? And, and I think, uh, I’ve seen a lot of Belgian friends out there like, really true artists and they can actually come up with so many so many things… but, maybe I still have to… I discover more to understand more and why is it like that and why is it quiet at this time and why is it so busy at this time and why people do this and do that. That’s why it’s very important also that I learn the language then I’m more aware of maybe some parts that I can’t approach right now at the moment. So the social life is different. Definitely different. I miss the social life in Syria actually a lot but at the same time I like the social life here because sometimes I really need time for myself. And here my friends if my Belgian friend calls me and says okay [name] we go or we do this that and I tell her no I’m sorry I just want to be alone. I’m just… she understands. She doesn’t get upset but there oh my god what’s wrong with her you know. So… Um… I think I think it’s just that I believe in something that we now that we came from Syria let’s say to Belgium we can create the balance. You take what you love what you feel comfortable with because here nobody forces you to live the way they want. Nobody tells you what you what you have to do except of course following the rules and all that that’s normal. But nobody tells you how to live. So you take the balance. Good things from the East good things from the West make a combination and then you have a great example. And I think I think we can we can do that because I’m following that. My husband is following that. I have some friends following that. My son. So I think it’s very possible. You just need to balance between the East and the West. Don’t be very hundred percent Westerner or a hundred percent Eastern because it doesn’t work. Life is not like that. You have to be flexible.
[i] And what do you mean by East?
[r] Middle East Arabs Arab mentality. This is what this is what I mean. I remember even in Syria and in Aleppo I had many people that I wouldn’t agree with the with their point of views. Relatives let’s say. Totally different. I’m totally different from the way they think. I also friends neighbors. Yeah. But but with me I think since I was small I have no problem dealing with anybody because I take you as a human. If you’re a kind person if you’re good. Why do I care? What is your or how much money you have or how much? I wouldn’t care about that. And I think that helped me somehow to to integrate and to observe different kind of mentalities. And yeah, I think I think that’s a gift. Yeah.
[i] So you feel comfortable in society, Belgian society?
[r] Yes, I feel comfortable. Yes. Yes. I don’t have any problems. I am. I’m also happy when I have friends. Belgian friends and they share also their problems they have in their country with me. And which which I I saw it myself when I when I started my own business. Then I understood why these people can could get for example aggressive or could get depressed because I used to think why are you guys depressed? You don’t have war. You don’t have the government supports you. And when you don’t have a job, what’s your problem? Then I understood why. When you work yourself, when you’re productive here, when you have your own business and then you have the taxes and then you have sometimes this this bureaucracy that drives you insane. Sometimes the miscommunication between the the organizations or the governments and you know, because like a lot of things. So then then I understand, you know. So you want them to understand you. You have to understand them also.
[i] And did you ever have any difficult situations or some problems or conflicts in Belgium? Not really.
[r] No, I don’t. I don’t remember that I had something except just the feeling. Maybe I’m wrong. I don’t know. But I don’t think I’m wrong in this. I think when I first came here and I’m very motivated to do things and I want to do them fast. Me, like many other Syrians, we had the same problem. We talked about it in our community. We talked about it. So you come here, you tell them, OK, I have experience in this and that and this and that. And you feel like, you know, like one time I met a lady. And she was also in the social. Social assistant. And I felt like her face, she was like as if I’m challenging her or I’m just like showing up. But it wasn’t like that. I’m just trying to say that I can work and I’m a productive person. I’m not saying I’m not thankful that the, you know, that the government is helping. But I also want to say thank you my way. I want to work. You know, so she didn’t like it or she didn’t expect that maybe a Syrian woman that comes from Syria. And when she saw on TV that people are just like ignorant and they don’t know anything and they’re just nothing or nobody. And she’s surprised that she saw a woman who speaks, let’s say, good language. She has a university degree. She’s educated. Her husband is educated. You know, she saw like my background. She didn’t like it. Maybe I don’t know what kind of vision she had. Yeah. You were a guy shocked to see Syrians who come from a good background, who have a good culture, who are intellectual. We were also shocked to see, you know, Belgians or Europeans sometimes thinking they cannot think out of the box. And for us, that was a big shock because for us, Europe was like the civilization. The open, open mentality, the freedom. So, yeah. So you guys are not the only one who’s shocked. We were shocked also. But again, I come to the same point. Balance. That is very important to balance life. We had to come here because of war. But we want to be productive. We want to live here and prove ourselves. We want to have this beautiful life between us and you guys. Give us the chance. Not everyone is bad. And I think some of them are very positive. Some of them are not. They’re scared to approach. But it’s somehow understandable. But after some time, I think when, after a few years, when they see how Syrians are, you know, how they’re, they portray themselves here, I think things will change. So everything just takes time. Rustig [quiet].
[i] And now can you tell a bit about the experience with organizations that helped to integrate, like, for example, Atlas or OSEMV? What was your experience?
[r] Yes. Actually, Atlas, I didn’t have much experience with them. OSEMV, just the OSEMV, normal. Yeah. Yeah, assistant, they help you. There is a certain kind of bureaucracy that you have to follow. But there were some nice people who helped, of course, who were understanding. But with the integration class, we had an amazing teacher. He was a Moroccan teacher, Mr. [name]. Very nice guy. We had an integration class with him for like a month and a half. And he’s the one who helped us to find the restaurant. He helped us also with a lot of things, getting people to the restaurant, knowing people. He wants also to show that, yeah, not everyone is bad. People can be very productive. People can be positive. It was a really great experience to be with that man who also is fighting his own culture and his own people, just to show that, you know, like, guys, we live here. This country is good to us. Be good. Nobody is forcing you. Like, I don’t see a Belgian coming and forcing, oh, no, you have to do this. You have to do that. So why do you have to do that to the Belgians or to other nationalities? Why do you have to do it? So he’s also one of the people who really is fighting, you know, for… to give the good, to give the best. And it was really a great experience to be his student for a month and a half. It was me and my husband also worked with him. And through him, I got also to “De Groen” So I’m a member also in “De Groen” party because also we had a beautiful project in Syria before I come to Belgium for almost 10 years to save. the environment. And they were really surprised with the story of the organization in Syria. And there was an Ubuntu festival in Boom. It was in September. And we had a stand, special stand, telling my story and the story of our organization in Mashtab Helou in Ubuntu festival. So also wonderful people, really nice. They have so much respect despite of where you come from or what are you. Really beautiful people also. So I’m lucky. Now you’re making me think of all these beautiful things and I’m just… I consider myself lucky, really.
[i] Do you think that you have enough of chances to develop yourself professionally in Belgium?
[r] I think you have to make your chance. You really have to always follow and work really hard to prove yourself. And I think luck also plays a little bit of role but I hope I can do it. The thing is after what I’ve been through, after what we’ve been through as Syrians and now at my age, I can say… I cannot predict the future. And I don’t want to think about the future. This is what I learned here in my previous experience here in Belgium for the past three years. Because when you’re going to think a lot, you’re going to fall sick. You’re going to be really stressed. So what you do, do the best. Do what you can and work hard. And then you will… I’m sure you will get rewarded. You will get your chance. That’s something I believe in. It’s from my own experience. I don’t know, maybe others being unlucky or maybe they’re working hard but they’re not knowing how to work, which way to approach. But always I say try. Always try. Always try your best.
[i] And do you ever look back to your life and think what would have happened or what you would be doing now if you didn’t leave the country? And if there was no war, where you would be? And what you would be doing if you didn’t come to Belgium?
[r] Yeah, that’s a good question actually. But I never thought about it because I didn’t think that it was going to happen. But maybe if I was there and I wanted to be in film or singing, it would have been a little bit difficult.
[i] Because of…
[r] Because of… It’s because of the way that our media portrays art. It’s something that I don’t like or they don’t… Our media, it doesn’t give… It’s not fair enough to the artists. You know, you see many artists, many writers, many poets, many singers, many… Let’s say professional dancers that I’m actually surprised and shocked to see them here. And we have all this talent. You see them now on YouTube. But we never got the chance, you know, to… Unless, you know, you have relatives in the TV or relatives I don’t know where to reach or to do some compromises, which is something that I wouldn’t do at all. Then you won’t reach, you won’t achieve what you want. So I think here I have more chances to get what I want, to be international. To be Syrian and international at the same time. Because I don’t want to lose my identity also. I can combine both here.
[i] And what, in your opinion, is the effect of the whole situation of the war and the fleeing on your personality? Is there something special?
[r] Yes. It opened my eyes on how people can change. And how humans can change to monsters for money. And that is very scary. That is something very scary. I mean… I think… The movies that they made about the zombies, the virus that, you know, the one that bites someone and then the virus. It’s the same. It’s crazy. This is how I can visualize what happened in Syria. And it opened my eyes on few things that my parents used to tell me always. Be careful of that person. Where he comes from. Where… What his… His background. His mother. His father. His grandfather. They always used to tell me, be careful on who you talk to. And whatever they said after few years and after the time of war, they were right. It’s because how you’re raised at home. If you’re raised on love, then you love. If you’re raised on forgiveness, you forgive. But if you’re raised on hatred, then you will hate. And now, when you teach a child who’s only eight or nine or eleven that you have to protect your country and you have to protect your home and you have to protect your sister. That child, think about it, he’s a child and you want to give him a chore, you know, to do or a work to do. That child, he’s very… He feels responsible. And he’s very aggressive with his feelings and emotions because you gave him something and he wants to prove that he’s good. So he doesn’t think. And we destroyed whole generation with that. This hurts. So much. And… And really, like, I… It hurts me so much every time I read on Facebook. Uh… Our children, the way that they’re behaving. The way… The lifestyle they’re having. The vision. Some of them, they don’t even think of going to school. Some of them, they don’t even think of going to university. They want to do anything to eat. To… To have a shelter. I have a friend of mine, she’s a… She’s a journalist. She’s a writer. She always writes really beautiful stories. She lives in Syria. And one day, I told her I want to write a script. And I want something that’s really real. And then she mentioned something that, you know, she met this girl. She was like only eight in the street. And she told her, what do you want me to get you? You want me to get you food? A shawarma, let’s say? Well, everyone loves shawarma. And she’s like, no, I don’t want shawarma. I want boiled egg. And she’s like, you crazy? Why do you want a boiled egg? Yeah, that girl, she wants a home. She wants a kitchen. She wants her mom to go and get the water and put it in the pot. And cook for her. She wants electricity. She wants a roof. She wants safety. And when I hear these kind of things, I mean… I mean, go to hell with the war. Go to hell with money. Go to hell with everything. If our children are going to suffer this way, I mean, I don’t know. So I decided that as long as I live, I want to show the world. And through art, through music, through my films, through my musicals, I don’t care how. But I will try it. That I want them to see the suffering of our children. But also, I want our children to have hope. I don’t want them to think only of food and water. No. This is not who we are. They have to think of future. They have to think how to be strong. Because with them, Syria lives longer. Without our children, we don’t have Syria anymore. Yeah.
[i] And what do you think will be the effect of the fleeing of all the situation on the way your son is going to be raised?
[r] I think my son, him and many other children went through enough sadness and pain. And they are afraid. They are very afraid. They are afraid. They are confused They are scared. They want to go back home. They miss their friends. They… their life there. But at the same time, they are afraid to make choices. Simple one, choices of making friends, choices of studying. They are scared for example, if, let’s say my son wants to do cinematography, or wants to do music, he’s scared because that maybe, as an artist Give up living …cannot have a good life. A photographer cannot have a good life then I have to do engineering or doctor or law even if he doesn’t like it or maybe no matter how good I am people will start will keep thinking that yeah I’m a refugee. This is something that I really don’t don’t accept I never felt I’m a refugee here never it’s how you see yourself. So, I think this fear is there, but we, their parents, or their families, we have to make them strong. We have to act positive in front of them. We have to show them that, no, you have the chance. This country respects you, it respects your rights, it respects your humanity, and you can do what you love. So, it’s just a generation of awareness that we have to create, protecting our children in a safe environment like here. And just hold them, and talk to them, and involve them with activities, and with Belgians also, it will help.
[i] And what kind of values are you going to give to your son? Is it going to be Syrian? Or European? Or it’s going to be a mixture?
[r] A mixture. The balance I talked about at the beginning, that’s what matters. For us, humanity, love, knowledge, forgiveness, I think these are international, universal concepts. Any person, any normal human should have these things, these values. And we practice them. When you have, I think, these values, you’re never jealous, you don’t fail, because you do your best. You love people, you forgive, you forget, you move on. This is something anybody should have.
[i] And do you still hope that one day you can come back?
[r] Yes. Yes, of course. I won’t. And every year I say I want to go visit, I want to see them, I want to see… I just want to smell the ground after the first rain. I really… that smell is different. And I hope one day I can. I can go back and just touch everything I missed. And be there, be in places, and walk around. Yeah, of course. I would love to. At least visit the graves of my parents, which I couldn’t do. That’s something I want to do.
[r] What is the most specific thing that you miss about your home? Maybe something in your house, or in your village, or in your city, in your street.
[r] Um… I miss… Maybe I miss myself. My old self there. Yeah, I was different there. I was somehow different. I’m not very different now. But, you know, when you’re with your family, when you’re with your surroundings, the blood, the atmosphere, the weather… is different. I miss it there. I miss… I miss the feeling I have every time I’m there with the relatives, with the friends, and with my students. Especially my students. I mean, I miss being with them so much. Laughing, joking, going crazy… All these things, yeah.
[i] I know that you have some special object with you. Can you please tell me a little bit about the subject?
[r] Yes, normally… I don’t have favorite subjects or objects. And I’m not… Normally I’m not attached to things. But yeah, I have perfume. But now this perfume is a symbol for me. There is a very famous poet. A Lebanese poet who says… And I follow that saying always. The most beautiful woman says… Before you leave, or when you leave this world… Leave a perfume. Leave your perfume. Means leave an influence, leave your effect. And this is what I want to do. I want to stay… Even when I leave this world… I want people to say… That she left something nice. She left something that we can remember. And it’s like a good perfume. This is how I portray. So yes, I love perfume very much. But this is what I… This is what I follow in life. I want to leave a good name. I want to leave good memories to people. Just like the smell of this perfume. Yes.
[i] Okay, thank you very much for this amazing interview. I think it was very interesting. And good luck with your performances and with your career.
[r] Thank you so much for you, [name]. It was a very nice and touching tour with you in this interview. I also loved it very much. And thank you for everything.
[i] Okay, thank you very much.