SU_A_05

[i] Hi [name].
[r] Hello.
[i] My first question for you: Do you miss home?
[r] Yes, every day.
[i] What do you miss most?
[r] Everything: places, the feeling when you’re walking on the street, your language when you hear on the street, people. Just… you know this is where you belong. Sometimes, you don’t have that feeling, that missing feeling. Now, when you ask me this question, it really comes. I was not even expecting it like this. I miss home.
[i] How old where you when you left?
[r] It’s just… In May it was three years. Now it’s June. Three years, maybe it is too soon. So you still miss it so much. But… Just three years.
[i] How long before you leave Ukraine, you planned your…
[r] It was, it was not actually planned. Totally not, because it just happened. Circumstances go that way. It’s long… I don’t know where to start. My life was very normal for me in Ukraine. I was just a girl. The only daughter in the family. I was a student. As a normal student, you’re going out with your friends, all these things. One day we went to the club, the discotheque. We don’t do it often, maybe just one time per five months. To have fun. And I met, in the club, somebody. Which I was very in love in. And that changed all of my life. So… Since that moment, life gets more difficult for me. But more happier. How we can say it like this? I met a man, he was not Ukrainian. He was from totally another country, even from another continent. And I’m from Ukraine. He was from Africa, from Sierra Leone. It was my first experience, that I meet so much different person. But something gave me the feeling that this person can be very close to me. Closer than my family, at that moment. After that, everything started. [name], he was studying in Ukraine. Also as a foreigner student, he was studying Ukrainian language. Because he always wanted to continue to study … accounting. So it was just… We met in October 2012. He just came September, he was just one month in Ukraine. Everything was totally new for him: the climate, everything. We met in the club. We danced all the night, we talked, just communicate. It was very interesting. We are two very different people. It was not for me love, from the first sight. Totally not. For him, he says it was love from the first sight. I can be proud for that. But for me, I just was… I find him very nice. He was very like, I don’t know, intelligent, not the way even Ukrainian boys used to talk. Very different. After that we started to communicate, we started to meet, again, and again, and again. And after we started a relationship. But it was not easy because… I was not thinking, this relationship, can bring me to something more than just relationship, for a while. Because I was not imagining myself… He was a foreigner, which came to study, I was not knowing about him much. What was his background? The culture is very different. But this was my rational thinking. My emotional thinking was totally different. When I was with him everything was not existing any more. It was just me and him. That feeling, like, I’m never able to forget. Even now I have that feeling. I feel happy with the person. I grew up in a society which very hardly accepting something different. Something, something, like I don’t know. It’s a very conservative society. The country, the people are not travelling much. They do not experience new things. The are a land that, this is like this: the black is black, the black is bad, the black is totally underground something. Something which cannot be smart or intelligent, or wise. We stay far from it. We don’t even try to accept it. The people are looking at it in a very different way. They are thinking that, that we are the best, and we are the higher… I don’t know, race, let’s say it like that. That make us and the people limited… Our… I don’t know. Intelligence, I think so. It’s difficult to explain. Because so many things happened. I was, that time in the club, I was with friends. They already knew that I met [name]. They alse were not thinking that this can be something big. Because, it’s just somebody in the club. Even in the club, how can you meet somebody real in the club? I never… I also was aware about that. But… Even after two weeks, we started to date. I told [name] sorry, but I don’t want to continue. It wil not give us happiness. In the right way as I was teached [taught]. I don’t know like how to say it. And for two weeks, we stopped. That two weeks we was apart, I was thinking every day about him. Afterwards, he too. So one day he called me back, and said: [name], I know it is difficult, for you it is difficult, also for me. But… Let’s try, just try! I was like, I was always, I want to do things right! This is right. I was teached like my mom, my grandma, my father: [name], this is the right thing you have to do. There is nothing like back, left or right. This is the straight way. But that moment, I let all my rules behind me. And I just followed my heart. So we started again. We were just together. Must of our – when [name] was in Ukraine – most of our time we spent in the dormitory where he was living. Because the pressure of the society was too hard for him. And for me too. The Ukrainian people believe when the girl goes with a foreigner, especially an Arab or somebody from Africa, the lady is a prostitute. Thank god, I’m a pretty strong somebody. I’m able to know these things, these stereotypes. I was breaking my own stereotypes, because me too, I was never expecting from myself that I can date with somebody like this. So even walking on the street, the boys -Ukrainian guys- they were looking at me as a prostitute, they were showing very bad things to me. Saying bad words, that wasn’t, it didn’t matter anymore. It’s more their problem I think. Now! But that moment you were so much… under pressure, so you were afraid to go out with your boyfriend, to hold hands. It was not accepted. He was not accepted, yes. Because he was from another country. He was black! He was negro, yes. This is the way they call it. And me, I was not accepted, in my own country, because I chose a man which was not accepted. We was having beautiful time together, but it was inside, we was not able to live like normal couple, to go on a date, to go to a cafe, to go to the cinema. Because you are facing total discrimination, as a woman. And your man as a human with a black skin. Our relationship started in October, we met in October, the relationship happened a bit later. 2012. [name] was studying the language, and facing discrimination in that moment, this same moment. So after, he decided he will not be able to live and stay in Ukraine. So many incidents. He wanted to rent an appartment, he was not able because the houseboss say no. He’s black, he’s dirty. It will not give my proper appartment. To go to the cinema, to watch a movie, if there’s somebody black there they will shout: There’s a black one sitting here. To walk in the park, the guys which are drinking beers, start to throw the glasses to the head. This… It is difficult but now I don’t feel any more pain about that. I don’t feel I don’t even feel offendend, to that people who, who say that things. It’s just sad that there is such things existing in the world. And you’re not able to live where you belong to live. Not able to make choice which you want to make because of what people will say. [name] has to leave, in the summer. He was trying to He wanted to continue because we already was having beautiful relationship. On another side he was, doubting if he was able to build a life in Ukraine. The family was not also happy. With the choice.
[i] How was their reaction?
[r] Actually my family didn’t know nothing. Till the moment I left Ukraine. So, it’s like I left Ukraine in 2015. Since 2012, my family was not aware I have any relationship. But [name] go back to to Sierra Leone and the family was against it because we also have a different religion. I’m Christian. Because I was born in Christian family. I’m not that practical Christian. I believe in God, but I’m not going to the church. I believe that there is God. I’m not that… I’m not following to the church reglement, how to say it? [name], he’s born in muslim family. It’s something totally too opposite. Let’s say like, opposite to our mind. Not maybe, really opposite. Because I think each religion has the same basic rules. Like, not to kill, not to lie, not to steal. To love your closest ones. This is like something moral, which each religion has. It’s so much build up in society, also plus politics, so for me it’s more business. The church and these things. So the family totally say no, we have here so many, look! This girl, this girl for you. Why you don’t get married here? It was not something for him too. So he just stopped here in Belgium. He was trying to come back but he needed a lot of money to pay for the study. The family was not wanting again to support him. His own money which he was having, finished. So he just stopped in Belgium, asked for asylum. But it was not too succesful.
[i] How would you imagine that your parents would’ve reacted if they had known about [name]?
[r] Actually, I told them. I told them. Because, when he was in Belgium, I was coming to visit him. Two times. For the first time, we don’t see each other like one year. Then I came to visit, in the summer. It was a very beautiful time, for two weeks.
[i] So when was the first time that you came to Belgium? To visit [name].
[r] It was… He left 2010 and again 2014. In the summer, like one year after he left. And after, I came in the end of 2014. It was the beginning of 2015 that moment I got pregnant. I was very scared. I think he was scared too, but he give me all support. It was needed at that moment. Because, I go back home to Ukraine after second visit. I found out that I’m pregnant. I was totally lost. I was feeling so much love from him. I was understanding that I carry the child from the man I love so much. I was not having him next to me. The future was so much, like, totally disappear. Because I was knowing exactly that like, my people would not accept me. We decided that we will keep the baby. We was not knowing exactly how it will be, in the future, but the baby will stay. So it was like January, that I know that I get pregnant, In the beginning of 2015 I visit and I got back. So I was like, in April I think, it was like four months. I decided to tell my mama.
[i] And?
[r] It was like, like, she see me like somebody she doesn’t know. I was having small hope… she will accept. But, no. She totally don’t… She doesn’t understand. How it can happen, with me, with somebody who was growing… Very good family! Now I’m pregnant from, from the black man. She was forcing me to do the abortion. That was very sad. I was very stressful that moment. I also got sick. I was needed to take antibiotica. That’s why I told her. I was having like, infection ’cause it was winter. And… That time I tell her that I’m not able to take antibiotica because I’m pregnant. It was not in April I tell her, I tell her earlier. We just… We decided with [name] that I have to come, because I will not be, I will not be there, like, happy and the child should have father. He was wanted the baby too. After all that fight with mama, my father found out, so many pressures. Black man… Sad things happened to the family. And I was feeling so much guilty because I don’t I don’t, I was not, I didn’t do what they was expecting. I don’t… The expectation they were having for the only one daughter in the family was totally fade out. It give me so much, like, maybe really I made something wrong. At that moment. It’s all behind now. The communication is is not is not too good at this moment. They know that we are together and we have children. Two now. I hope, one day, it will get better. Because, I love them no matter, no matter what. Just… It just happens sometimes, you know, life. At that moment, when I want to leave, it was difficult because I lost all my documents. Because of all of the stress with that, doctor issues, sickness. I just have a friend. She was knowing somebody who used to travel, like, illegally. The person was giving like, passport. That passport was having a visa. The photo was… They were having a few passports that they were using. With a photo like you. You can choose. So it just was some smuggler I travelled with. It was crazy! I was pregnant five months already. It was May. You just buy one ticket. Without going back.
[i] Do you remember what you were wearing?
[i] What you were carrying with you?
[r] Just… I remember it was some jean, but I don’t remember any more. I just have small rucksack on my back. Nothing much.
[i] How did you feel?
[r] I was sitting, and I was just crying. I was trying to be strong because, that moment, that few months, already was too much stress for me. I was worry more for the baby inside me. I was feeling like I was feeling like I don’t know if I do the right thing. I know that I’m coming to the man wich loves me and the father of my future baby. But I was not having no guarantee for my future. Which I was having in Ukraine. I was working and everything was okay for me. I was in my comfort zone, and I… I know everyday where to go, where to buy food, where to… How to live. And I was sitting in the car with somebody I didn’t know. Before me was the border. I was even thinking maybe they will just sent me back. Because the passport is not a real passport.
[i] And you arrived in Belgium?
[i] Did you arrive in Brussels then?
[r] Yes, it was in Brussel. I was travelling, because [name] was not living in Brussel. I travel by train. And we meet each other.
[i] It was not your first trip to Europe?
[r] No, no, no. Because I… Even when I was teenager, I travel with my father. It was like… It was not too much stressful, maybe, let’s say. Kind of, language, because I speak English.
[i] Do you remember the first day that you arrived? Someone helped you?
[r] Yeah. I was very lucky because I have [name] here. He was already here, I have somebody which, which is, which can help me. I arrived like 25 May.
[i] 2015?
[r] Yes. 25 May. And 26 May I ask asylum. When I was standing in that line, for the refugee office, in Brussel, I was feeling… I was never imagined that I will be standing in that line. I don’t know… I don’t like to ask for help. I don’t like to ask something, like, to beg. I always, always wanted to, to be able to, to do things on my own. We was standing in the line with so many different people, so many different stories, and I was not belonging that much to to the way of life maybe of that people, maybe that people was having much worse than me, they came from country with war. They lost families, which died. I don’t know. I was feeling, I don’t belong to this line. But I know I don’t have no choice. Sometimes I just even want to, I was standing in the line, I just want to run away. Just, to go. Where to go? And…
[i] Did you take any particular object from home? To remember something?
[r] No. I didn’t take it. I just take a few clothes, I take my computer. With my photos. Afterwards, my friends send some things for me after. But that moment, when I was going, no. I was always holding, my friend gave it to me, small Jesus Christ. It was strange, I was not that believing person, but it was always with me. Just like symbolic.
[i] Where did you stay? When you started your procedure?
[r] I was staying in asylum center, and when I see the center… In Ukraine we was having like, when Crimea was still in Ukraine, we had like this big sanatorium for the for vacation by the seaside. And when I see this asylum center, it was just looking exactly like that sanatorium in Crimea by the seaside. This was like the, I don’t know, the building was just like that. So I just, I smiled, okay, something like…
[i] Where was it? Which city was it?
[r] It was in Antwerpen, in Linkeroever, Red Cross Center. I meet the people, the social assistent, they were nice, I think. They tried to to help you. They give you the room. But the room was like, very small. It was It was two meter to one and half meter. It was a bed there. And a tap to wash, mirror and kast [cabinet], like iron kast. Your bedsheet, they give you like basket. Your plates and cup. That you’re able to eat. So it just was like, this basket, I always associate with prison. This is yours. And you should keep it. Thank god you can change it, if you want. When I’m talking about this, I’m talking with a smile. It’s not hurt, pain, any more. Because when you succeed it’s not pain any more. But when you’re staying there, waiting for the result of your procedure, it’s always like, what will happen if it will be negative? What are you going to do? How you are going to survive?
[i] How long did it take? How long did you stay there?
[r] I arrived May 2015, February 2016 I already get positive decision. So it was not… It didn’t take that long, as can be, for me. For my husband the procedure is still on.
[i] And your first child was born in Belgium.
[r] Yeah, she was born in Belgium. Delivery was very okay. Medical issue was very okay. Everything was succesful, she was healthy. Even good that the stress I was having during the pregnancy… She’s a really strong girl. And she’s, she’s a hero. We was living in that small room. Three of us. Two beds, even we managed, I don’t know how? How we managed to put there the baby bed? And all the baby’s things. Because it’s really small. Now we are living in an apartment with two bedroom, big parlour, and I don’t imagine how it can be. In that room! I don’t know. I don’t really know. It’s funny, we was happy. We was together. You’re really happy. Because we was together and that was what we wanted. And we was not any more afraid. To hold hands, to kiss, to say this is my man, this is my woman. Nobody… Maybe the people judge, but it was not that directly judgement. I’m not able to say, racism is not existing in Belgium. No. It exists, but is… It’s different way. Most of the people, they are more open, I think. To newcomers. Not maybe that deep. But they will, they will not afraid to sit next to you if you are a black man in the bus. We was feeling free, I think, in our relationship.
[i] Do you have any positive memory from the time that you were staying in the centre.
[r] Positive? Yeah, so many. Because the baby was born there. So many, a lot of foreigners, like the whole world was greeting you. That you have your child. Yeah, all world, because so many countries, so many nationalities. They was really happy for you. I don’t know. It’s incredible. Everybody was having their own problem, but everybody was waiting when you deliver. When the day it was very close, everybody asked: “Not yet? Not yet?” “When? When? When?” There was also a very beautiful moment when [name] proposed me. It was also in asylum center.
[i] How was the condition in the center? The staff…
[r] Some of the staff was very nice. But some of them was just want to put you, like, you’re nobody here. You just follow the rules, and that rules is for everybody. If you don’t follow the rules, I will let you feel like you’re bullshit. It was maybe two of them. Another one was really trying to to feel you, that you are human and… Even, this is your situation now, everything will change. The condition like, yes, the room was very small, you always needed more space, the shower, toilet, they were general. Sometimes you will meet there what you don’t want to meet. But you was having warm water, and I think it is important that you have warm place to sleep. You have possibility to wash. The food, they provided food. Yeah, the food was not, I don’t know, not the food I used to eat. Maybe even traditionally, but, it was, I mean it was… You will never have much problem with my stomach or something like this. Yes, it was every week the same, the same day, you know what they will give you. It was like a ritual, so Wednesday was the favourite day because it was chicken with frietjes [French fries]. One time I remember they changed it, so I was very disappointed. It was like a routine. It’s very comic. I don’t, like, I’m not able to say that I was, like, feeling, dirty, or, I don’t know, like… I was having my basic, at that moment. Of course I was having much more when I was in my country. But at that moment I was happy that I’m with my, with my man. And that my baby is safe, and everything is okay. Yes, I think so. Yes, it was some rules that, like, you need to come eat in the same time, if you don’t come in time you don’t have food. Unless you have reason. Or something like that. This was not that harmful for me. If you want you was able to do some small job. Like, we was cleaning the toilets, like for me it was a little bit, like, I never do that. I was studying in University, I had my masters. When I was cleaning in toilet I was feeling that my my social status go very down. But… I know that like, it’s just for temporary, so I just let it go. Yes, so you never know. How life can be. So never say never. Now this is… I know that.
[i] What did you study in Ukraine?
[r] I was studying sociology.
[i] Which town were you born?
[r] It’s in Lviv. It’s West Ukraine. It’s the last like, the region is very close to the Poland border.
[i] Did you study in the same town?
[r] Yes, yes. It’s a big city. It’s like lets say, in Ukraine Lviv is like Antwerp. Very, like, big city. With also a lot of history behind. Also a lot of foreigners. But in the same way very conservative. And very difficult to accept newcomers. Especially when the color is different of the skin, the religion.
[i] Is that easy to go to university in Ukraine? Do you have to write an exam?
[r] Actually, that time when I finished school, they provided a new system. Everybody has to to do the exam. It was different. A few exams: thematic history, Ukranian language, It was like, independent exam. So it was like new system out of corruption. That system, at that moment, I was fortunate to to pass the exam and I get good points so I get scholarship. The university is also one of the best in in Ukraine. It’s not high rated in Europe of course but the university has good reputation in Ukraine. I was studying in historical department, and that department was having sociology. … You call it?
[i] Faculty.
[r] Faculty, yes. But, it’s like, the very, like, prestige, it was of course managment, marketing, economics. I never want to do that thing. It was not something for me. So sociology was a perfect option. I really like it. The university is good, I learn a lot. I’m happy with my knowledge. But… The knowledge about society, what we was learning it was, everything was, theoretically. And after I finished my university, I really start to facing things which I was learning. Unfortunately, the practice comes a little bit after.
[i] Well, Ukraine, Belgium. How do you see the cultural differences? What is most shocking for you in Belgium? Or most comforting to you?
[r] Lets say, I don’t know how to say it, like, for Belgian people, in my own opinion, I’m not Belgian, I’m just talking about what I observe, they are always thinking that you don’t know something like, I don’t know, the basic. You don’t know how to serve the table, how to, find on Google Maps, the way from A to B. They will treat you a little bit like, illiterate. First time it was like, it was bugging me so much, like: I know these things! Please! I know these things! It was making me angry. But after, I just like, they just don’t know, just say thank you. Just say thank you, or just give example from your life ah, we do it the same way! We do it the same way and maybe we are not in Europe system, maybe our mentality still very far from your open minded way of life. But we have the basic, the same as you. Also, like, this was like what was pissing me off. Mostly on my first job. But… Comfort? Lets say yes that I was saying that I was feeling free with my man here. I was not afraid any more to go out. To hold hands. We was still, and still, and now and always we’ll be attracting more attention than normal couples. Because we are mixed couple. And the people always giving you, more eye on you. But the eye will be not bad eye. I don’t feel that bad eye as I was feeling in Ukraine. Maybe they are thinking something behind, but… I don’t feel it like that. And… The structure or the organisation of social life, infrastructure, the transport system, the logic of to live is more organised, lets say. It’s more comfortable, maybe. But maybe too much strict, for me still. Cause you have to follow rules from one to ten. You’re not able to skip seven and six lets say. But maybe it’s better, because otherwise yeah that’s why the level of life maybe here its better. Strange things for me is that the people like they always make an appointment. You want to go to visit your grandma, you want to visit your mama, you need to call her and make appointment. minimum two weeks or one month time. Because everybody busy in this world, you’re not able to go to your grandma just to drink a cup of tea, because I can go to my grandma any time. Even she’s not at home, it’s not pain me much. Or maybe she has something she will be happy to see me. She will not be happy when I come, she say: Ah, [name], why didn’t you tell me, I don’t prepare food for you. It was just like a… yeah. And here is so many appointements. Even with your friends, like, I don’t know, maybe not for everybody, mostly what I experience, like at work, everything appointment, appointment. Not like, I’m just dropping by or something like this. It’s for the Belgian people. For foreigners, like, they they are more easier, I think. But like… Now is everything settled a little bit. You know the way, how to live, where to go, where the bus stops, how to check it. But for the first moment it was difficult because everything was new. Thank god, here in Belgium, Flemish, a lot people speaking English. And you able to communicate. But still the language is a very big challenge. When you want to go out from from that asylum center, when you have your positive, you want to to move on, to start your life. You want your life be on the same level as your, lets say, intelectual development. With your social status, which you already was having in your country, which is sometimes very difficult to get. Especially the language I think like is the first challenge and also that you are foreigner. Because they will always see you as foreigner. Maybe for me as a white lady it’s more easy because I’m not very different from people on the street. But just imagine if you have another colour, like my man, or you come from Asia or Arab countries.
[i] Did you go to school to learn the language?
[r] Yes, yes. I start to go to school first when I came in May, the school was about to finish in June so that time I didn’t go to school and I was still pregnant so I was just watching some video on youtube. When my daughter was born like in two months time I started school. And I continued yeah, it’s left for me the last stage, I need to finish it. The school, it gives you a lot they teach you you try to follow, you’re doing exercises. You’re doing everything excellent. But, when you enter into the environment with native speakers you understand that your school don’t give you that knowledge how to understand people. With different cities in this small country everybody talking with dialect and with their own tempo. So it was a big challenge when you start to be inside environment where only native speakers are talking. It was like, oh my god, I was following school one and a half year and now I don’t understand nothing.
[i] Can you tell me, more specific in which context it was that you were exposed to native speakers?
[r] Yes, yeah. You have here in Belgium VDAB organisation. They have special programs for foreigners. One of that program I was fortunate to have. My social assistent in VDAB proposed me, it was like a contract for the foreigners. So you have like stage [internship], in a firm, it was like social assistent for the children, for the girls with economical and social problems in the family. Between 14 and 16 years old. So, it’s like kind of internaat [boarding school], let’s say. In this center for this children. And I was doing there my stage first and after, work. Everything was there in Nederlands. So it’s there… Because all my colleagues, they were native speakers of Netherlands. I totally was not understanding nothing! But it comes because you don’t have choice. You just need to You just need to not understand sometimes, after it just comes because… Everyday when you are listening, you hear, it just comes to your brain. There’s no magic. You just need to be very patient and sometimes I cry a lot. Because I don’t understand. I want to say something. I have some idea, but that idea will be already finished because they already say it before you finish to formulate your sentences. So mostly the first few months I was just keeping silence. I was just just listening. Especially when it was meeting, team meeting. Ten people are discussing some subject, you feel like, I just want to go out because I don’t understand! Yeah, with time!
[i] How was the dynamic, the relationship between you and your colleagues?
[r] At first they, they was very friendly, when I came. They were smiling to me, they were trying to have some information, who I am, But, it was like, a wall between us. I was not belonging to them, They was keeping me very like far, the distance was very close between us, like, one meter every day, but it was like kilometers between us. I don’t know how to explain it. Even like, even like, in the office when they were discussing something they will always send me back, because they know that maybe I don’t understand that much the language. So it was not making sense for me to stand next to them to listen the thing. One of them was always trying to give me job, let me don’t be around them. I’m the kind of person who will be patient, too much, sometimes. So I just do what they want me to do. But after like, because I was there like, almost one year. When I was leaving because I get pregnant, with the second baby, I was already in the system, let’s say it like that. They accept me, I was close to them, they were understanding that I’m not totally stranger, or something like that. But it had taken a very long time. And for them too. Maybe it is just my experience. I’m the kind of person… I’m not going too much open to people I didn’t know. So, two of the factors working in the same moment.
[i] What did you like about your job?
[r] Now, I’m saying so much that only in this job I was able to know and to talk Nederlands. And it was very big experience for me, because it was social work. So, my study is very close to that. So I have very big experience in the social work. It’s has given me so much knowledge and experience. And when I start to work like a few months after, even I was feeling like: “Okay, I’m working here. I’m doing something.” Even close to my field, social work, sociology. I was feeling like, phew, I’m in the right place. Like, I’m not totally failed. I was feeling like, yes, you’re able to have normal life here. And that feeling is important. I don’t make much friends at work. I don’t even communicate, now at this moment. I don’t continue the work, it is not possible any more for me with two children, the night shift and lates.
[i] When you were coming out of the center, what was the most difficult step that you had to take?
[r] After all … when you get positive that few days, you start to understand that you have limited time to find apartment. To find apartment, so you just need to find apartment. For us it was difficult, a little bit, but not that difficult. But of course, when you start calling, at that moment, none of us was talking Nederlands, so you are calling directly and you are talking in English. So they know directly this is somebody not from Belgium. This is already first – “Aha, this is not Belgium” And next one – “Don’t have income.” And income is under OCMW, under social help. So the people always, oh no sorry, the houseboss don’t want somebody who is OCMW. Oh no, the boss doesn’t want somebody with a child. So many calls was just rejected, from the first few words. Some of the social assistent for us, they help, they call, they introduce us as responsible people, that we are proper. So these things help. We find apartment. It was a very beautiful apartment. The area was crowded but the apartment was new we was very happy that we had that luck to find it. After you start to understand that -now, for this moment- you are standing under social help under OCMW, you have that amount: €1100, you have to pay rent, you have to pay bills, you have to feed yourself, your family, you have a child, you are trying to calculate how many money will be left for you it’s left, like, let’s say €300, if you… Because our apartment was a little bit higher then, it was like, €650. And yes, you are trying to manage. So you know all shops, all prizes, all Arab shops, all cheaper shops, and you are very happy when you meet banana not for €1.30 but for €0.99. It’s 31 cents cheaper. At that moment you are very lucky. Or if you have good promotion, like, 1 + 2 or 2 + 1. Or four avocado for something like one euro let’s say. You need to also arrange your place. You need to buy furniture, you need to buy bed. And some chair, to sit on. And a table. And you want to have something beautiful, you want to have something good because it’s for you. It’s your new life. And not always what you like, your pocket can pay. You also receive help, to have some starting. Like €1000 for the furniture. But for us it was finished very fast. Because we need to buy washing machine and all these things. Some things, we buy a lot like second hand things. But some things, like matras, some things, like, you just want to have new, because you want to be safe, and you have a child. But we are very happy if possible to save as much as possible.
[i] When you decided to leave Ukraine, when you just bought a one-way ticket, you didn’t know what’s going to come? Did you have a better image, if you were free to wish, did you have a better image in your head? How different was this, the reality that you build?
[r] That moment when I was leaving, I was not having no imagination. I was not knowing what I am going to face. I want to say now that I’m happy what I have. Because that three [years] life here in Belgium, is much more than I was living in Ukraine my 23 years. In this three years time, happened so much more than I was living in my country. I was not deported, I was not sleeping under the three, thank god. I can be happy about that. I have possibility here, to learn, I have possibility to learn language, to have some job, Of course there are so many things which are negative, you don’t have the same rights, to have a vast [permanent] contract, when you get pregnant and blablabla. This is so much frustrating things when you… It’s left for you one month to get vast contract you don’t get it because you get pregnant. I don’t really know how legally is that. I just, sometimes I’m just thinking, everything that happened, it happened for the better. You are trying to do your best, you have to try to do your best and some circumstances you’re not able to predict. Sometimes life’s giving you something that you will be never ready for that, at that moment. But after a time you understand, the challenge that life gives you, and it was a lesson for you. It’s behind you.
[i] Mentally, or your belief system, what was the most helpful value that you had, that helped you to go through all these hardships?
[r] First of all, it’s love. It’s very, like, comic and banal, maybe think. But at that moment I was coming here because I was having love here. Some people which don’t ever feel that feeling they will not understand. But one day, they will know. All the things like, it’s just I think, patient. Don’t mind some bad people which are trying to put you down. Just ignore them, for certain moments, like, for me, like, the stage is going over your limit, you can talk to them. Don’t let somebody put you down if that person is not right to you. Or something like this. And always try to be nice to people. Even that person is not like, she will be smiling to you, she is not really sincere to you. Afterwards, she will value more. For me it’s working. For me it’s working. I’m not very like, a bold somebody. My strongness is on another side.
[i] Now you have two children, they were born in Belgium. They are going to be raised in Beligum. What element from your hometown culture would you also give them? How does it work for you? You come from Ukraine, another culture, your children are going to be raised here. How do you see this combination?
[r] It’s difficult for me, I’m always thinking about that. First of all, it’s the language. Because, from the first moment my daughter was born, and my son too, I’m talking my own language, my mother language is Ukranian, and it always will be my mother language. In the house we talk in English because my man is speaking English. In the school, the kindergarten, and on the street, it’s Nederlands. So the first it’s like for me is the language. It’s difficult for the first child, for the daughter to speak, because it’s three languages. And she understands everything. But she’s mixing up, and she’s not able to express herself yet. She’s two years and seven, eight months. She’s still not talking as I was talking in that age let’s say. The children I know in this age already talking so much. I’m afraid, if I’m doing everything right. I don’t know, like, how I can help them more with the language. But about the culture, of course, it’s not that much I can give her here about Ukranian culture because I don’t have traditional way of celebrating Easter, Christmas. I think she will not know all these things. I try to introduce her to to alot of things. Food I’m cooking, is something which, which I know how to cook from Ukraine. Some of them of course mixed already with Belgium or a little bit of Africa style. I would try to introduce her more to to the culture in the way of holidays. With the Easter we have tradition to paint eggs, so we do that. We’re singing Carol for the Christmas. I’m singing to her. But how strong it will be for her, I’m not able to know. Because now she start to go to school. Most of her environment will be in Nederlands. In school they are also teaching more traditionally traditional holidays of Belgium. So, I just want let she be a good person. Two of them. I will try to give them the best they can. And my husband too.
[i] For yourself, for your career, now at this moment you’re not working. How do you see your career? What ambition do you have for your career?
[r] When I was working as a social assistent I was very happy, as I told you. I was feeling like, ah yes, this is something like, I was study for, and I’m doing it, and I was feeling good. But now I stopped. And I’m again standing between choices. As always. What to do? I definitely don’t want to sit at home. And definitely, don’t want to stop on what I already learned. I want to learn more. I was thinking to change a little bit, to the logistics side, to the administrative things. Because it has more creating more space for me as for the mother with two. Because social work in the internaat is always on shift. And also very stressful job. I don’t think this is something I want to do all of my life. And on another side, I have hobby. I like to bake. But I’m afraid to do something with that. I have a very good friend, she’s always pushing me. I want to take real step. Because, It’s better to try and to regret, then not to try and regret. I don’t know, maybe I will be a “baker business women”. Or I will be combining two things. Administrative, logistic and baking as a hobby with extra income. I don’t know yet. The pictures are there so you just need to try. Not be afraid. But sometimes I’m afraid too much. Sometimes I’m thinking: “Why am I afraid?” If I do all these things in three years time. Yeah, crazy.
[i] Normally, newcomers get an integration course. Did you also take that?
[r] Yes, I took it. I took it express. I think it’s not fair, because express course is only for the people who has higher education. It’s only for like one month. It was nice, the lady which was doing that integration course, she was from Romania. She was speaking Russian. So it’s something which I can very easily understand. If I learned there a lot, I don’t know if I am able to say that I learned there too much in that integration course. The kind of information, some of the things I already know, because I was following school for the Nederlands, and the Nederlands school give me also that knowledge because everything was based on practical things. Like, I don’t know, this “mutualiteit”, social things. But some of the, some of the information was new. So, let’s say it’s not that helpful, but it is not that bad. But you have to do it, anyway, if in the future you want to get your nationality. Or something like that. I think it depends from teacher to teacher. From group to group. It was nice, I think.
[i] Is that always easy for you to find the official information, the legal information? How do you normally get hold of information that you really need?
[r] In kind of field?
[i] Any field, for example, is there any organisation that you can just call and say I don’t know this rule, I don’t know how to take this action or something.
[r] Yes, when you are foreigner you’re facing so many unknowledge. You have so many questions, but you also have questions that you didn’t know that you have to ask to receive the answer. There are so many organisations, some of them are really helping, most of them, if they are volunteer organisation, that organisation about papers, they can give you advice. They can give you some ways, how it can happen. Sometimes, you have question that they will say, you don’t know that question. And when you don’t ask the question they will not tell you. They will not tell you extra than you ask. And this limited you because your knowledge here is limited. So it’s like a little bit, you always have framing your question. Sometimes, you’re meeting very nice people which will tell you, just because they know, maybe it will be useful for you. They are really ready to help and tell all what they know. Even if it is not necessary for you they will tell you. But not everybody and not everywhere. So sometimes, like, I was needed one information, I didn’t know that, unless I come in one year time back again and there and the lady just told me you have right to have abonnement for the half price. I never knew that. And it was really helpful because the income is not that big. For the mutuality, your man not able to have mutualiteit because he don’t have paper yet. And another man do it for me in five minutes time because we are living together and he has two children. So we’re a family composition. Why they do it, maybe they are not enough professional or they just don’t want to. I don’t know. I don’t know, but it happens sometimes.
[i] Do you have a big circle of friends here?
[r] Not big, but a good one.
[i] Are they mostly Ukranian or from your country?
[r] No, I think my closest friend is from a totally different country also from a totally different culture. She’s from Iran. I have one couple from Ukraine but we’re not that close. I don’t know.
[i] Is that important for you to keep in touch with the Ukranian community here?
[r] Sometimes I’m thinking it is important for me. Because I want to even for my children, to have them that imagination about Ukranian culture. But still, three years here and I know less Ukranians then I know foreigners. I don’t know why. Because, on that integration course, there were a few ladies from, one lady, two ladies from Ukraine, and they were talking about… subject about children, about society here, and everything was very negative. Talked negative way and I was not feeling connection. I was not feeling that connection that I was needed. Maybe this is not the right person. But like, I don’t know if, yeah, I don’t know.
[i] How could it help if you’d be in touch more with Ukranian community? What would be the advantage?
[r] I think first of all advantage is to be maybe more integrated, even here in Belgium, they’re having more experience to find job, to start something, to learn something. I don’t know. Something like, basic things. I think it helps I didn’t.
[i] Are you also a member of any organisation or association as a volunteer? Or as a hobby, something that you keep in touch with outside world?
[r] Ukrainan you mean?
[i] No. Generally, in Belgium.
[r] Yes, I have a lot of things from my friend and also I have some information from a social assistent like talking groups, some activity, just find on Facebook via internet. Viavia or you hear or you see, yes, like that.
[i] And in terms of the future? What would be your dream? As a family, as a mother, as a person? As who you are.
[r] I want that our story with paper finish here, totally. Everybody has the right to do something, especially for my man. For me, as a woman, I just want that my children be happy and healthy. It’s basic but it’s important. That I have something that I really feeling happy to do it. Like I’m saying the job, if it could be combination of two or only one, baking or… I hope it will happen soon. And of course, one day I would like to visit back Ukraine. With all of my family. And I will not afraid anymore there. I will not be afraid to hold my husband and to be proud of him because I’m really proud.
[i] You should be proud.
[r] I am.
[i] If you compare Ukraine with Belgium, in terms of opportunities. Beside the freedom, that you have here, what would be one thing that you wish that you had it here from Ukraine? Like, you think that it is missing here.
[r] I think it is… It’s difficult to say. I miss everything there. But on another side I understand why I left. I miss people, I miss to talk my Ukranian language, I miss to hear it in the busses. But I don’t know if I need it now that much.
[i] How about the social life? The community life here in Belgium? Of course, you live here alone with your family. In terms of social relationships, do you miss that sometimes here in Belgium?
[r] Yeah. Because I miss much my friends. And my closest one. Every week, like, you know, I can go to grandma I can go to the other grandma, I can go with my friends to go out, walk around the city. To sit, to drink coffee, tea, or, I don’t know, You know were to go for the lake. To have fun. Something like, you know when you just open your eyes, when you wake up, you just know where to go. You know everything, where is the closest with closed eyes. So, social life, in kind of friendship, like, is still not that as it was in Ukraine. I don’t know if it ever can be like that. Yes, you miss your country anyway. No matter what was there, how many bad things happened there, you miss it because you was born there and you grew up there. Just you are here now because something in your life, the life changed for you.
[i] There are many people who migrate to Belgium. Do you see any difference between different migrants, based on your experience?
[r] Yes, that feeling when I was standing in that line, to ask for asylum, because, I don’t want to make somebody feel bad or something, but I was not belonging to that type of people. I don’t want to, it’s not… There are so many different migrants. So many different people. Nationalities, from countries, with so many different education levels, without education, I don’t know, I … I’m not able to say that I will feel more connection with immigrants from, let’s say, I don’t know, Somali, than with Belgian people. But I don’t want to say that all Belgians are better for me than all Somali people. After I leave Ukraine I understand that all that racist problem that we were having, I don’t like to talk in general, because, it’s limited you so much. I always try to to calculate the person because of her own personality. Not because of where she came or he came from. For me, it’s better that way. Because, if you’re talking in general like, it gives you just, general knowledge. If you go deep, you have more.
[i] Your experience in living in the center in such a big community how many people were there?
[r] 300 and something? So many different people. Yes, you meet the world there. After Ukraine, okay, I was travelling a little, so I know the world is not only Ukranians. But still, when you have seen so many nationalities, it’s looking like you are losing your identity. You are not again the one, the world is different than in one country. The world is so many countries. So many nationalities. The way of dressing. The way of eating, the way of cooking food. The way of smells. I don’t know, take care of children, take care of yourself. But you’re just trying to respect. You’re just trying to respect. Sometimes it’s pissing you of if somebody eating with the hands, the food is all over. But you’re trying to, okay, this is the way they do things. Sometimes it’s difficult because, it’s not affecting you directly but you was grow up in another way to eat with fork and spoon it’s for you, like, whoah! What you can do? You’re not able to to change them. If it’s necessary, because, this is diversity. Sometimes it can irritate. I never understand why beautiful Arab women they cover themselves so much. It’s their tradition, but they have so many beautiful women they have very beautiful hair Why you don’t show it? It’s not a sin if you’re beautiful. Like, I don’t know. It’s their choice. Or maybe it’s not their choice, but they follow that thing.
[i] [name], four years ago, and [name] today, how do you compare these two?
[r] Four years ago, if somebody tell me that I would be living in Belgium, and having already two children, in my 26. I would say: “What are you talking?” “It will never happen like that!” If I change too much? I’m not able to say that I changed too much. Like, personality. I become more patient and open to the diversity I’m facing. I’m more stronger. More able to accept challenges in life. But still sometimes afraid to do new things. Yeah, but I don’t think I I’m more angry.
[i] Thank you very much [name] for telling us your story. I really appreciate it. I wish you all the beautiful things in the world.
[r] Thank you, [name]. It was very interesting also for me. Also analysing myself, it’s always new. Thank you so much.
[i] Thank you.